Future very bleak for on course bookmakers.

You often telling others to ignore me, why not come back with a proper reply?

I over the last two years on here have made a profit, after making a loss every single year previous, I am quite happy with the way things are going thanks, but I feel punters are being ripped off by some of your colleagues, and as this is a betting forum, i voice my opinion? I personally dont suffer from some of the absolute farcical prices (yes I go racing) that we constantly see in the ring, but Joe Public does suffer, you are nicking 10-30 pence of every pound in his pocket, not sustainable in modern times imo? in 20 years. I wouldn't mind racing still being here, it must transform.

I dont want anyone directly to lose their job, but imagine these folk thinking they have some sort of god given right to stand on courses, LITERALLY TRANSFERRING prices onto a board and making a lot of money from it? Its a job that requires little skill in this day and age and the pay deserves to reflect that?

I dont have anything against on course bookmakers themselves, but I do feel like the industry is better off without them on tracks if we are just seeing the constant 120-130% commission agent brigade out in full force, literally please correct me if I'm wrong:

-Look at betfair 30 mins before race
-Put prices up on the board all under betfair
-Take a bet from punter E at 4/1
-Have it back on here at 5.7 or just balance it up against all the other prices under betfair youve offered to punter A B C or D
-If it cant quite balance, take a risk or green it up?
-Repeat the process?

I struggle to see the importance of on course bookmakers in this day and age.

well put its me swaddle. and exactly and totally factual.  i see and read on twitter some bookies giving out about arbers. geoff banks comes to mind. and how he bans them off his site etc. i fail to see the logic. every bookie in the ring is arbing but prefer to call it hedging.  the legendary bookie stephen little said in an interview if you take a bet at what you think is the right price who cares what the punter does?  walk around a ring now and the boards are almost exactly identically priced. i remember pre machine in vibrant markets in ireland you could get 5s about one that was 3s at the far end etc etc . people are not more price concious these days and wont bet if conditions and price isnt right.  the piss up and party merchants will still bet blind but the core racegoers wont. and im not bookie bashing at all. ive a lot of bookie friends.

Change is the only real cert in life, yes tracks will close, and the future of Betting may have been planned around Media that the Public probably unable to (afford) sustain, hence Oncourse bookmakers could be on the way back, I would not have said this before 2005

Offshore accounts could be a thing of the past in the not too distant future with the new buzz word of the locality being thrown around by those guided by their masters.

Tax for Betfair could become an instant problem.

who knows?

I think tech is turning upside down on itself, and the public much more aware.

Centralised accounts are no good for anyone longterm, cash and collect is handy. We need choices, can the course bookmakers offer their own unique only on track offers, competition not just returning exchange markets. The On-course bookmakers need a product that only they can display, that the exchanges and shops can't bet on. only on-course punters, Betting without the fav on some pitches and other possibilities.

As a retired oncourse bookmaker i’ve spoken to four books in the last week and non of them can see a way back while the virus is still there..Any attempt at social distancing would end with something as simple as a rainstorm.
The problem is the longer oncourse books can no longer bet the worse it is for all racing ( my opinion)
There will be an industry sp.
People will use phones even moe.
Recreational punters will find something else to do.

In answer to why do people bet with oncourse books.Its part of the day out.I use betfair at home but if i’m having a day out i use the bookmakers.I also pay £3 for a coffee and £10 for petrol and £ 20 to get in.If oncourse books are lost i personally wont go racing again.

Finally apart from about 10 days a year if a horse is 5.3 on here it will be 4/1 on 95% of books and 9/2 on the others.Nobody will be 7/2..One of the reasons i sold up.

Tech killed the sport.

That can be reversed?

"People will use phones even moe."

Thats a good thing, it offers people a chance to get the price the bookmaker wants to take once youve bet with them?

Yes in the short term, but most will downgrade, Tracking data is a myth, I for one will not encourage them. No apps going on my phone.

Again hundreds of thousands of people just did their education on something that we no longer need!

Maybe they could pick the crops!

Remember the days before the phone and tech? Happy days!

Adge.do you have any data/proof or turnover stats that back up your claim that Betfair only as 5% of punters on horse racing?

I am sorry, but the comment that if there were no on-course bookmakers it would decrease the level of attendance is bordering on the most buffoonery statement of the year award.

Has that poster evey attended the Arc in Paris, the HK International at Sha Tin or perhaps the Breeders Cup in the US ???

All massively attended events with not a bookmaker in sight.

Complete nonsense.

They have a proper tote only.

gb government had a great opportunity to  establish a proper tote in gb.with proper enthusiastic people running it .but they bottled it,or something else, and awarded the running of  it to betfred. who proceeded to increase the takeout from 13.5%  to 16.5% in 2012 to 19.25% in 2017   as a result no one serious bets with the tote anymore.  so its basically a gonner unless its scrapped totally and a new tab type model introduced.

Baldfred knows the right people.

How can you have locality when they want ya all online, mixed messages me thinks.

Instead of selling the Tote to a bookmaker they should have set up their own exchange with all profits to racing. This would also have provided some proper competition to this place.

Swaddle, I see that you have shut Ribero up. Can't reply.

May 30, 2020 -- 2:09PM, sparrow wrote:

Instead of selling the Tote to a bookmaker they should have set up their own exchange with all profits to racing. This would also have provided some proper competition to this place.

Yes, but you are in breach of the unwritten profit for the few not the many.

In other words, now you are thinking. Nice one Sparrow.

Can't reply? What to?i'm sorry if i'm not here all day,there's nothing to say as far as i'm concerned,its each to their own and good luck to everyone,i'm not on here for pointless arguments,the only reason I commented in the first place was to Screaming who's a poster I always enjoy and respect,but hey ho if you guys think you've got it all sorted that's fine by me.

Ribero you are always welcome like everyone else. Good health

two questions that i understand were aimed at me
moonaxed
betfair gave the information regarding percentage in britain . i believe it was 5.7%..that is punters , size and turnover a different statistic i have no information on
whitehatjon
you are correct in saying the massive day at each venue . i'll add the kentucky derby for you....have you seen the empty racecourses in france on all other days..hong kong are also the biggest punters on here.

i'm certain that both ribero1 and myself would much rather be elsewhere today too
on this saturday at york last year , with a £5 minimum bet sign up , i took 1078 bets and rewarded myself with an ice cream after the last.
the sunshine is even warmer this year and york would be bursting with people forming long lines at the bookmakers joints...very , very few go near the tote , a few do a placepot
next week would have been the same at epsom

Thank you metro. Adge i'd even forgot where it was today!

Adge
1078 bets seems decent adge and did you win. just a quick one Adge has York held up well for you over the last few seasons. would have been there myself and would be looking for a nice few peronis in the old living room.
Hope we are there for ebor. off to put the Barbie on for 2 steak and a few peronis
stay safe
Ronnie

If the future is as bleak as the OP will have us believe adge perhaps you should consider selling ice creams then ? But not with a £5 minimum !!!

hi ronnie,
ebor day is the same but the first three days deteriorated considerably.....think we are long odds against , unless a small attendance ...maybe a tentative trial at quieter days in august but with many hoops to jump through
would you believe the ice cream seller gave me buy one get one free.....honour among theives some on here would say

My goodness adge you have laid yourself wide open there for similar offers on your very popular joint. 1078 bets and not a free one amongst them - shame on you !!

Madge,were you sleeping on the joint?Hennessy day Newbury 2nd row Tatts a few years ago,2100 bets,but a very bad losing day!!

Should start adge,not Madge

Adge, that was the 25th May last year, we were elsewhere, trying to stave off the "very bleak future for bookmakers"

Democrat, would have been nice to bump into you tomorrow but sadly not to be, hopefully later in the year?

2nd line better than front line...well done
i was probably there the same day , number one on the fourth line , possibly my last visit to newbury

Only just had read through and not every thread.From what I have read though is quite alarming in terms of the view of On Course bookies.Seems to me that the view is that they will become extinct? I would beg to disagree in terms of UK and Irish racing,for at least a generation,after that quite probably.The on course bookie has a place and is why UK and Ireland are unique in atmosphere,the ring is almost as important as the actual racing in terms of atmosphere to why so many go racing.As to the pricing/arbing etc,you can put that firmly at the hands of Betfair allowing Bookmakers to have accounts,particularly the High Street names.I predicted this and sad to say it as been born out by events,Peer to Peer it has not been for a long time and never will be again.This current situation is an opportunity for a stronger and more independent generation of "Bookies" to flourish i.e guts to stand and offer something different to the majority i.e LAY bets.I have never been ripped off by an on course bet or layer,cannot say the same for the biggest names in the world.

Yes next year perhaps artful. Who knows what the future holds. Let us hope in time to come we can all look back on this time as just a very bad memory that we hope we never have to experience again.

As for'Madge' unbiased I think I prefer it. It could catch on !!

Aside from the sad state of on-course bookmaking, I think that too many are being too pessimistic about when the public will be able to return to the racetracks. Sad that I am, I've spent a great deal of time trawling government websites for information and their projection / modelling slides for CV19 make very interesting reading. Bu August 1st, they project that deaths will be down to a daily total of 0 through to 5. Daily new infections will be about 200 by the same day. With 25,000 contact tracers, I suspect we will see a faster return to normality than many think - especially the doom-mongering BBC. Look at various government and sport websites and you will see that September 1st is a crucial date. Hence, between September 1st and October 1st for a return to racing for the public, all be it with social distancing and possibly virus waivers to be signed by attendees. At first hue crowds will be still banned but up to 5,000 is my prediction.

Would you like to give odds on August 1st The Knight or any of their modelling? Anything above 1/10 would be a huge risk imo as a lay for it to be accurate or factual.

Would you like to give odds on August 1st The Knight or any of their modelling?

would you back it if he did ?

Give the odds?

10/99

May 30, 2020 -- 2:10PM, clayfield1 wrote:

Swaddle, I see that you have shut Ribero up. Can't reply.

His response is fair enough really, noted it. It won't stop me posting my opinions on here despite his childish behaviour telling people to "ignore me" simply because he doesn't agree with what I am saying . It seems he has some sort of chip on his shoulder saying I respect this person I respect that person bla bla, I dont really care who you respect when you are advising people to ignore others

Kavvie yes im just saying it as it is you are right too really times do move on...

Is this or is this not what goes on?

-Look at betfair 30 mins before race
-Put prices up on the board all under betfair
-Take a bet from punter E at 4/1
-Have it back on here at 5.7 or just balance it up against all the other prices under betfair youve offered to punter A B C or D
-If it cant quite balance, take a risk or green it up?
-Repeat the process?


And i tell you what... the guy that corrected me saying 5.7 BF price.... youd actually see a lot of 9/2 on boards, fair enough...I will keep my eyes peeled but I must be looking in all the wrong places

Put it this way....if the price is 5.7, I bet we would see more boards at 7/2 than 9/2 in the ring!

if the price on here was 5.7 you would see 9/2 on almost every board . that is why bookmaking on all but festivals or busy saturdays is all but impossible
i am in the north of england though

how many still 9/2 when it goes 5.4 here ?

some would be if they want to lay particularly so if 5.6 on the lay side

Adge im north too, ill look out for it, its refreshing to hear.

Catterick, Newcastle, Hexham, Carlisle and Sedgefield prices are all generally rancid imo with Ripon, Thirsk, York and Beverley being a lot better.

particularly midweek at ripon , thirsk , pontefract and wetherby .....york back lines and not so much beverley
i don't bet anymore at your first five . happy to accept with the level of business there can understand your rancid opinion

adge, may I reply to your direct post to me yesterday please ?

Totally agree with you regarding attendances at midweek fixtures in France and also the US and Australia. However, HK is totally mobbed every Wednesday at HV, but 2 meetings a week I guess is the reason there.   

My point is that on-course bookmaking is a clearly slowly dying profession in the UK, in my opinion.

I used to love the ring, I worked in the ring for a number of years in the days of tic-tac and chalk boards, and if I was not working I would go to tracks as often as possible punting, great day out.

I have no desire for anybody of any industry to have to face the fact they may lose their jobs, but could we argue that sending our children up chimneys to sweep them clean, should be still be being practiced ?  Of course not, we have all moved on.

The exchanges killed the betting ring and it is now just a matter of time for on-course bookmakers.

Regretfully but not surprisingly, it is my view that when we start back tomorrow I have no doubt that on-course books will not be missed.

Sorry and nothing personal, but that's how I see it.

Adge, surprised to hear you no longer bet at Beverley considering the large crowds they get there.

He is still a Beverley sparrow - part of the fixtures !!

I read his earlier post wrong democrat, but thanks.

white hat jon ...agreed things have changed on racecourses and for me not for the better but we all adapt
for example of modern pitch values though......two years ago i had the chance of buying number 3 pitch in tatts at doncaster [flat ]
i offered 85k but the seller insisted that he wanted 100k so the sale didn't happen
less than a year ago he put the pitch up for sale in an auction with a reserve of 100k and he sold it at a final price of 135k.
if on course bookmaking is finished someone has clearly come unstuck there

agreed on course books will not be missed at these early days as only 5 turned up for the 50 to 80 customers at these all weather gaffs
newmarket at the weekend and ascot next week a much different situation

My goodness adge Doncaster must be very good to command such purchase prices. In tapping into your local knowledge would it be possible to buy a property in the Doncaster area for anything like that sort of money ?

Meh surely pitch location is now even more important than it previously was?

Customer profile = surely people that are unaware what or where the best price is and people that want a quick and easy process that in Doncasters case have just come out of the huge beer hall inside?

the key fact is that six can bet on the members lawn on busy days [ 3 rails and 3 boards bookmakers ]
yes , you can buy a nice 3 to 4 bedroom detached house for 135k in doncaster

Democrat,you could buy a street in Doncaster for 100k,never mind a property.

No brainer then adge. As for the Members lawn occupation - that means a certain person who shall remain nameless gets a very good move up !! 

You should have a word with Dave Nevison,he loved Donny so much he introduced social distancing long before Covid,particularly when it applied to the female population.He was right when he told me that the African plains were as near as he could think of as a descriptive region to avoid at all costs.Went as far as to say Sir David Attenborough's "Sweeping across the plain in majestic herds" could not do justice to the Wildebeest population.

adge,

Thank you for respectful response to my latest post, even though we clearly have different opinions.

Were I to venture into the ring some time in the future, which I think is probably unlikely, I would hope to do transactions with somebody as polite as yourself.

I wish you well in your battles ahead sir. Regards.

WHJ

just started reading ,,didnt get that far down so im sure its been picked up on...but a lot of tracks block betfair ,,york for 1,,

i wish they did block all exchanges , blueton
thanks , WHJ

blue, don't think they  do no doubt someone with more trips to York than me will let us know. Used to go a lot 5 years ago, very seldom go to Doncaster these days and thats on my door step.

In my experience its blocked in the wifi

Cant block your 4G

But the bigger meetings 4G runs terribly anyway.

Mixed opinions about them blocking it, shame they didnt block it for "bookmakers"

One of the interesting aspects of the resumption at Newcastle was the sight of bookmakers behaving themselves. Well, “sight” is wrong because all the betting action occurred online but the evidence is there for all to see in the results section of Tuesday morning’s Racing Post, which shows the profit margin built into bookies’ prices on day one was kept within very respectable limits.

This matters because starting prices cannot be determined by on-course trade, the familiar, tested and mostly trusted system that has been in place for eons. The public can’t get into racecourses just now, so racecourse bookmakers are sidelined.

For the time being SPs are being contrived from the odds offered by various firms online according to some unpublished formula overseen by the Press Association. It’s a new system lacking transparency and any punter would have to be wary, which is why it’s reassuring to see over-rounds between 113% and 119% for the mostly 12-runner races at Newcastle.

So there you go betting to 1% a ruuner in h/caps to 1.5% for non h/caps seem vey fair to me.

Comes to something when you pay these exhorbitant admission prices to courses and then they have the bloody cheek to block your phone.

I will start by saying I have no complaints at all with yesterdays proceedings, the % on the high side but more than fair.

Just an idea everyone..do you like it?

Nobody seemed to like my 115% course owned tote system.

What about course owned bookmakers? All profits kept internally by the racecourses.

They know how many tickets are sold and can set up the amount of bookmaking stands accordingly.

They run 100 identical boards set to different % depending on what enclosure you are in....

So take York, the members can have a board set to 110% and the picnic end can have a board set to 115% and so on.

Prices are available for different amounts depending on the enclosure so £50 max bet picnic end at a time, £250 members etc.

All boards run by staff on min wage or nearly min wage (its not a specialist role these days)

And a revolutionary move away from CASH...

You go in and load up your funds to a cashless card or it can be done earlier from home etc

With your cashless card you can buy drinks/merch or bet with it.

At the end of the day anything left on the card can be refunded to a debit card or collected at a booth.

Guys "liking the feel of cash in your hand" is not a good reason to be ripped off...come on now.

Times move on.

as you are assuming that the current crop of bookmakers have no skill factor in how they work and each bookmakers stand need two persons to work them how do you believe that the racecourses will also stand the losses achieved

I was thinking more of 1 man operated because it is cashless?

Bookmaker stands with tablet, punter calls out stake and number, fed through into a central pool, you don't actually need to return to collect, its cashless?

20 on 4 .....

Tablet holder presses number 4, stake 20 pounds.

Tablet linked to ticket printer...cashless card linked to app on phone...

As for handling losses the course haven't hugely thought it through but as liabilities would be controlled centrally someone paid more would be able to work with a 115% book?

Its better than what we have at the moment anyway in places North I listed.

Places that are part of a group, i.e. ARC tracks can work to a central pot so the odd loss wouldn't be harmful and anyway, they could do what 90% of your colleagues do, have it back on here if they liked?

As for handling losses as the course*



Edit: Didn't mention sorry im using a fairly big presumption, if you have the full racecourse population betting into one market im presuming you can get them all in the book fairly evenly.

so lets look at the 115% figure that you suggest
one example...a horse is heavily backed at 8/1 so is reduced to 6/1..to balance the percentage another horse is extended from 6/1 out to 8/1....that's a 3% loss on the original 115%
again.....the 2/1 fav is heavily backed and shortens to 6/4..meaning that the 2nd fav goes out from 7/2 to 9/2 and a 5/1 chance goes to 6/1....that's a 7%loss.....
yes it can work but needs a good degree of skill
at present the racecourse get approx £100 per day plus staff admission from a cheap ring bookmaker and £200 plus staff admission  for a saturday meeting.[ some days are more , some less ]
so with tatts and rails being 80 or more books and the cheap being 30 or more books the racecourse income without doing anything are £20,000 on each day .

that is quite a considerable sum to turn away

i would have much preferred loading my car at this moment looking forward to an evening at ripon than sat here btw

Crumbs adge making such plans would mean that you would arrive at the track in good time. Most unlike you !!

Shut the exchanges down , that would help....   turning racing into a suspect sport .....

Yes good idea jinxy back to the old days when it was all straight.

It was never as bent and corrupt as it is now , lol , betting exchanges a breeding ground ....

You best pack it in then, lucky.

Poor first race overround wise at Newcastle with 114% shown.

Poor that is still beats Newcastle historic overround 118% from 2019, baffling.

The last week has taught us all the ring is finished and not required.
This thread had showed us the only people who want oncourse books are those who operate them and indeed opposed to change and improvement, hence in essence causing and indeed helping the end of what was in the past, a colourful skillful trade of oncourse bookmaking die.

San Quentin,may you rot and burn in hell.....only kidding but I think you are very wrong in the short term.When racing returns to semi normal the on course books are going to have unprecedented business imo.The attendance levels will increase beyond any actual forecasts of which I know not,I guess at 40% + for the likes of Sandown and exponential turnover?

For the 60 years I have been a racing fan, the majority of punters think that many races are fixed. Some are but most are not. You try to get 10 or 12 owners and trainers to agree which horse should win a race. One thing I am very sure about, it is much harder to fix a race now than it was 40, 50 or 60 years ago.

Hard to fix a race, not hard to get 1 beat.

People now simply won't believe how corrupt the game was in the past and think it has only just happened because of the exchanges.

True so long as everyone involved agrees. But if it takes a jockey to give it a bad ride, they are pretty green. So much easier to miss a couple of gallops at home. And of course if a horse is ready to win, why lose. You may never get another chance. Racing is littered with horses that only run 3 or 4 times in their life so if you are lucky enough to have one fit and well, go for it.

Always been the straightest game outside snooker,10 or 12 owners btw,what century?

Depends on your definition of bent tbf but too many fantasies imvho.

Btw Swaddle nailed it.

glentoby I do agree attendance levels will hopefully increase, but sadly our current crop of books oncourse are quite happy to offer zero value so even though crowds hopefully return in large numbers these so called oncourse turf accountants will miss a trick and cause the end of this trade unless change happens. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity which needs to be embraced by all with two hands.

It is strange that nobody ever mentions the zero value of place bets on the exchanges.

There is a lot of nonsense on this thread.

This is very much a dying art, get over it and move on.

The machines have taken over and unless there is radical change to restrict the use on-course, bookmakers as we used to know them will be like the Dodo. Extinct.

Careful your not heard by Ribero saying that.

He might tell others on the fred to ignore you.

chatto

08 Jun 20 21:50
Joined: 16 Jan 02
| Topic/replies: 199 | Blogger: chatto's blog
It is strange that nobody ever mentions the zero value of place bets on the exchanges.




Please explain.

chatto

Please keep it to yourself about the value pf place betting on the exchanges.

This is where I primarily operate in and the times I see a dodgepot horse which continually hits the frame but will not win sent off at value prices in the place markets astounds me.

If you, too, have cottoned on there is no need to alert the masses!

OK. Some mention on here about races being fixed and racing being bent.

One evening at Donny last summer I was talking to a group of casual racegoers who were sensible enough to also take an interest in the racing as well as having a drink. One guy in particular said he had often thought racing was 'all crooked' and that he 'knew' dog racing 'definitely was'.

But, he then asked me if I thought both sports were corrupt. I gave him the same answer I always give anyone when they find out I am a full-time racegoer and punter - and then inevitably ask me if it is all 'bent'.

My answer is that from horse racing to dog racing to the stock markets to the foreign exchanges and anywhere else where human beings see the chance of 'easy money' there will be an element of corruption and fiddling. BUT none of it, regardless of the market, is ever large enough to ruin it for the vast majority who play.

This guy saw the logic in my view and said he would start to look at racing differently. As the conversation moved on I then told him how later on I would be backing a 33/1 shot for 4 places in an 8 runner field. He was fascinated by how that could be done.

Anyway, along came that particular race and my horse scraped into 4th only because the one that should have been 4th was subject to either a very poor ride, or a very corrupt one, in as much neither horse or jockey was giving it 100% from some way out!

I then sought out the guy I'd been talking to and showed him how I, as a punter with no knowledge at all of whether there was to be some possible skullduggery in the race, had probably benefited from any that may have taken place. Hence, I went on to say, there is no point at all punters worrying about whether racing is bent or not because the bit of naughtiness that does happen can just as well benefit them as harm them.

So, yes, racing isn't always straight but it is certainly better now than years ago when there were loads of meetings where there were no TV cameras and so only those at the track would ever see what was happening. Can you imagine Devon & Exeter on hard ground in the early 1970's full of holiday racegoers? The absence of any prying eyes save for the stewards must have been a godsend to those with wrong doing to carry out!

The Knight.....chatto spoke about zero value in place markets.

Well done for finding someone sensible in Doncaster

sparrow. Yes, I know. I was trying to be sarcastic because I believe he is very wrong.