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KeMoH
22 May 18 10:37
Joined:
Date Joined: 25 Apr 11
| Topic/replies: 2,748 | Blogger: KeMoH's blog
I just went into my local Ladbrokes to place a bet on Bustam in the 5.05 at Nottingham; I wanted £200 at the then advertised price of 9/2.

I handed the betting slip and my money to the cashier who put the bet through the system. I had to wait a couple of minutes for authorisation.

I was then informed, by the cashier, that the bet was accepted and he duly handed me the betting slip (photo attached below) and put the £200 in his till. He had even wrote the price of the horse on the betting slip for me.

The bet was on as far as I was concerned.

However, a minute later the shop phone rang and I was called back to the counter. To my amazement I was told that I could only have £200 @ 4/1 or SP and that the bet that I was holding in my hand had been voided by the powers that be at Ladbrokes.

Not only had the bet been voided, but they had clipped the price of Bustam into 4/1 across all shops as the Cashier showed me on the computer screen. Seen as the bet was voided and I was told I would not be able to collect in any way, shape or form if the horse won, I gave them the slip back, but made sure I got a photo of it first.

I was given my £200 back and advised to ring customer services who told me they "were sorry" and that it was a "trading decision".

Any advice on whether it is worth taking this further would be most appreciated.

In my opinion, the bookmaking industry has just sank to a new low I never thought it was capable of.

Photo of the bet which had been struck can be viewed below:

https://twitter.com/gandalf19069126/status/998870659865378818
Pause Switch to Standard View Legal advice urgently sought after...
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Report dambuster May 22, 2018 11:41 AM BST
How did they get your phone number?
Report dambuster May 22, 2018 11:42 AM BST
Sorry i read it wrong, they phoned the shop and you were still in there..my apologies
Report dambuster May 22, 2018 11:43 AM BST
You should have said, sorry, its a bet. and walked out,  if it wins, then threaten to write to different newspapers and expose them on social media, threaten them with small claims court. they are in the wrong. end of
Report pixie May 22, 2018 11:45 AM BST
You should have refused at the time and not given them the slip back, then if it won they would have had to have honoured the bet at 9/2 and you could have taken them to the small claims court if they refused but they would have settled at 9/2 before that, and probably restricted you to sp only from there onwards.

By doing what you did, you will probably be able to place more bets in that shop so it's a swings and roundabouts decision.

This happens loads and will happen again to you if you regularly bet in shops and are either betting best price or arbing.
Report ronnie rails May 22, 2018 11:45 AM BST
Dambuster
it was the shop phone that rang
regards
Ronnie.
Report ronnie rails May 22, 2018 11:46 AM BST
dambuster
SORRY
Report dambuster May 22, 2018 11:49 AM BST
Arbing, i cant understand why bookies worry about arbing,if they truely want to make a book
Report KeMoH May 22, 2018 11:51 AM BST
I wasn't even getting on at Best Odds.
Report JML May 22, 2018 11:56 AM BST
I agree with the earlier posts-refuse to void the bet and say that you
will take legal action(small claims)court if it's not settled at 9--2.
Report JML May 22, 2018 11:58 AM BST
How often would you use this shop and do they normally accept
£200 bets from you?
Report hectoratoratora May 22, 2018 12:02 PM BST
You have a legally binding contract for £200 at 9/2.Nothing lads say changes that.Tell them that and say pay me or it will cost them more in small claims court.Going to small claims court is childs play,but it will not come to that.Lads are bluffing you and they know it.
Report KeMoH May 22, 2018 12:03 PM BST
I am a regular customer at this shop, they generally accept £100+ bets from me but have had some issues with them before with not letting me take a price etc. Had a £12 (unit stake) Lucky 15 yesterday in a different Ladbrokes shop with no issues.
Report KeMoH May 22, 2018 12:05 PM BST

May 22, 2018 -- 6:02AM, hectoratoratora wrote:


You have a legally binding contract for £200 at 9/2.Nothing lads say changes that.Tell them that and say pay me or it will cost them more in small claims court.Going to small claims court is childs play,but it will not come to that.Lads are bluffing you and they know it.


In hindsight I wish I had refused to hand back the slip. Having said that though, I was told, essentially, that they had cancelled a legally binding contract. Couldn't some action be taken on this front, regardless if they were bluffing or not?

Report JML May 22, 2018 12:12 PM BST
amazing how often the price changed between 4/1 and 9/2.

9.54(2) 9.58  9.59  10.04  10.16  10.18(2) 10.20  10.22  10.28  10.30  10.32

13 changes in 38 minutes. Similar story with corals.

William Hill were 9/2 until 11.36  and Betfred until 11.29.

Why would anyone use Lads or Corals---they've been pathetic for years.
Report JML May 22, 2018 12:18 PM BST
You can phone the Gambling Commission and let them know what happened.
Report GYR May 22, 2018 12:34 PM BST
the cowboy culture lives on. I do believe these firms now actually believe such antics are justified ......and it gets worse
Report DenzilPenberthy May 22, 2018 12:53 PM BST
Similar practices are commonplace especially the reduced price on your winner that has already been verified,price still the same when you leave the shop,returns a bigger sp yet the price went 4 seconds ago etc. I stopped the shop lark was taking too long out of the day and far too much hassle/bullshyte.

What a lovely writer you are KeMoH best of luck battling these shysters
Report ladycarla May 22, 2018 1:05 PM BST
The amazing part is after the effect of the FBOT's you would think that high street bookmakers will start to do what they did when they first opened shops and take bets, I could understand if it was an unraced horse but an 3 year old no wins in 8 starts they would be the ones you would want to take on!! It's still 4/1 now so hardly a shower of money for it, I would never use them again.

As for the legal part I wouldn't bother as with you taking the money back you have agreed with their actions, be different story if you walked out shop and the horse won. What odds you walked out and horse lost and next time you went in they said 'You had a void £200 bet in the system, can you just fill this form in' LaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh
Report StillLearning May 22, 2018 1:11 PM BST
Soon as they took your bet, should have got out of the shop sharpish!

I agree with other posters, probably not got a leg to stand on now you have handed back the slip.

Once the original bet was struck and you were handed the slip, that, in my eyes, was a binding agreement. Also strange that they had rang through for authorisation, so the bet should have been stopped there and then.
Report Aviboyd May 22, 2018 2:16 PM BST
Disgusting behaviour.  Send an e-mail to Justice For Punters imo, they appear to have the ear of one or two people at the moment.  It makes sense for all this Bookmaker fraudulent behaviour to be documented in one place.  The fact that this sort of behaviour is commonplace nowadays doesn't make it right, I've never stood for it and neither should anyone else...
Report Escapee May 22, 2018 2:34 PM BST
No ones asked the obvious question:

Why bother with 9/2 in a shop when you likely would have had 5/1 or better on here?
Report geoff m May 22, 2018 2:41 PM BST
there not nicknamed ladcrooks for nothing. As others have stated i think you are struggling haven given the slip back. They rang up and agreed to 9/2 and photo copied accordingly. They wouldnt have a leg to stand on if you had stuck to your guns. But their profits have been based on mugging the gullible and looks like its continuing even after the fobt decision.
Report DenzilPenberthy May 22, 2018 2:43 PM BST
No ones asked the obvious question:

Why bother with 9/2 in a shop when you likely would have had 5/1 or better on here?


The obvious answer is there is very little liquidity until racetime
Do you suggest sticking the £200 up at 6.2 taking the only £2 available and watching the sea of blue on oddschecker and the rest of the arb jumpers in front of your £200?
Report sparrow May 22, 2018 3:05 PM BST
DenzilPenberthy    22 May 18 14:43 
No ones asked the obvious question:

Why bother with 9/2 in a shop when you likely would have had 5/1 or better on here?

The obvious answer is there is very little liquidity until racetime
Do you suggest sticking the £200 up at 6.2 taking the only £2 available and watching the sea of blue on oddschecker and the rest of the arb jumpers in front of your £200?




I think escapee was suggesting that the OP might be better off waiting till later and with less aggravation.
Report DenzilPenberthy May 22, 2018 3:09 PM BST
Then said horse could be 3/1 etc. but yes
Report sparrow May 22, 2018 3:14 PM BST
That's the problem with overnight and early morning markets as they just mark the bookies cards for them. Overall they do a fine job for bookmakers and is the reason why they introduced them for all races.
Report TheFear May 22, 2018 3:14 PM BST
disgusting
Report Trusty May 22, 2018 4:05 PM BST
it looks like you could have filled the order at 5.8 or so at that time which covers your comm, stops you having to get cash, walk to ladcrooks etc etc. and it looks like 6.0 will be available very soon.
Report Willie Shafter. May 22, 2018 4:13 PM BST
i recall about 2004..i went into a ladds on wallsend high st and handed a slip over asking for £400 on zee zee top at 11/8 the price on screen...was handed the receipt back with 11/8 wrote on it..didnt get 5yds from counter to be called back and told could only have 5/4 while it was still 11/8 on screen. got money back and walked 20yds to get the bet with hillls.
Report themightymac May 22, 2018 4:17 PM BST
Major betting firm content to bring their brand name under disrepute for a hundred quid, it really makes one laugh.
Report KeMoH May 22, 2018 4:34 PM BST

May 22, 2018 -- 10:05AM, Trusty wrote:


it looks like you could have filled the order at 5.8 or so at that time which covers your comm, stops you having to get cash, walk to ladcrooks etc etc. and it looks like 6.0 will be available very soon.


6.0 will be available very soon Cry now trading at 4.4... fair play to 365, laid me the £200 at 9/2 in its entirety. sitting pretty now

Report Trusty May 22, 2018 4:40 PM BST
traded up to 6.2 after my post.
Report KeMoH May 22, 2018 4:43 PM BST
for £76? not much good to me Wink... only joking.. but on a more serious note, now 3.85 on the machine. the big boys have come late and hard for this "good thing".
Report sparrow May 22, 2018 4:55 PM BST
5.7        £2    £766       
5.77            £21       
5.8        £14    £783       
5.9        £3    £1,008       
5.94            £188       
6        £26    £446       
6.11            £162       
6.2        £8    £76       
6.28            £170       
6.4        £0    £69       
6.45            £180       
6.6        £4    £66       
6.62            £81       
6.79            £189       
6.8        £23    £4       
6.96            £206       
7        £15           
7.13            £48       
7.2        £1           
7.3            £39       
7.4        £5           
7.47            £167       
7.6        £0           
7.64            £118       
7.8        £0           
7.81            £44       
7.98            £36       
8        £24           
8.2        £21           
8.32            £4       
8.4        £357
Report KeMoH May 22, 2018 4:57 PM BST
sparrow, most of the 6s+ was matched last night and early hours of this morning upm until around 10.30am. When the price peaked around 6s again at 4:10pm it was only for a few quid, price soon tumbled back down again...
Report sparrow May 22, 2018 5:03 PM BST
Fair enough kemoh I hadn't been watching it closely. Best of luck though.
Report wisewords May 22, 2018 5:08 PM BST
here we go
Report Deltâ May 22, 2018 5:10 PM BST
lame
Report lord skywalker May 22, 2018 5:16 PM BST
good thing, where did it go
Report lord skywalker May 22, 2018 5:18 PM BST
laddies wouldve quite happily accepted £200 on fobts, couldve won the grand on there
Report Facts May 22, 2018 5:49 PM BST
You placed the bet and then Lad Head office randg the shop and the cashier called you over ...
What if you had walked out the shop after placing your bet ?
Report lord skywalker May 22, 2018 7:48 PM BST
dont worry next time it will be odds on and then you can what you want on, he wasnt a average punter and therefore no good for business, it lost so didnt matter but you can be sure laddcrokes wouldve kept it.
Report starship May 22, 2018 8:55 PM BST
10.30..walked into shop and asked prices for two dogs
10.31..cashier looked on screen and quoted the prices 7/2 and 9/2
10.32..i put slip over £100 win each and £100 win double
10.33..she rung up for permission to lay the bet
10.34..she said you can have £100 win each and a £50 win double.
10.34 and a 30. secounds i took back slip and changed the £100 win double to £50 win double.
10.35 and 30 secounds handed back slip which she rung up.
first dog won the second one came second.
when back in shop to draw money was told there have been prices changes, the 7/2 shot was 11/4 and the 9/2 shot was 7/2.
the price changes occurred at 10.34 and 20 seconds

so at 10.33 the prices were available and betwwen her phoning up and 10.35 the prices had change.
will not mention the firm as i am still in dispute over the bet over the difference off £75.

if both dogs had won the difference would have been..£568.75
Report layemall May 22, 2018 9:30 PM BST
Once a bet has been accepted/authorised by the trading office for a given amount and price, and rung through the till and photographed, with the price written on the bet and money handed over by the punter, surely that becomes a contract that can only be broken by mutual agreement?
Report layemall May 22, 2018 9:32 PM BST
This sort of thing never happened years ago :(
Report JML May 22, 2018 9:35 PM BST
The cashier must of told them higher up what happened.
What did that cashier have to say to you?

The only reason the prices changed was because they had just agreed to lay your bets.

Won't be long before higher staking customers will have to record all conversations with these dishonest parasites.
Report layemall May 22, 2018 9:42 PM BST
if the bet and price was accepted by the trading office, whilst still on the phone, the price was written on the slip, rung through the till, photographed and bet number relayed over the phone. Thank you and goodbye trading office. Job done......you then might see a shortening in price on the screen........but never ever, a call back to say call that customer back as we need to change the terms. A complete and utter shambles, partly due to the old saying, if you pay peanuts....you get monkeys...... not their fault whoever it was accepted the bet, but then got over ruled by a jobs worth.
Report KeMoH May 22, 2018 9:47 PM BST
JML, not willing to divulge the details of the conversation that took place between myself and the cashier (purely because his name and shop number is identifiable on the photo I uploaded to Twitter). Having said this, what I will tell you is that he was almost as shocked and dismayed by the situation as myself...
Report SlippyBlue May 22, 2018 9:53 PM BST
I think you should have been given the 9/2 for the neatness of your handwriting alone. My mate manages a local Hills shop and he gets a lot of Chinese punters in and he says it's a conundrum to actually decipher exactly what it is they have done!
Report layemall May 22, 2018 9:55 PM BST
KeMoh....that is irrelevant what conversation took place.......most shop staff would have the hump, including the manager, if it happened as you say.....(those who understood what had happened I should say!!).......some though nowadays may not have been too surprised if they have been in the game a while....
Report ProSniper May 22, 2018 9:59 PM BST
People need to STOP giving the bastards custom! The sooner people let them all die off..the better the world will be.
Report layemall May 22, 2018 10:04 PM BST
In this particular case though, they inadvertently did you a favour, as £200 buys a lot of beers :)....so they are not all bad.....lol
Report layemall May 22, 2018 10:04 PM BST
In this particular case though, they inadvertently did you a favour, as £200 buys a lot of beers :)....so they are not all bad.....lol
Report JML May 22, 2018 10:07 PM BST
sorry for the confusion KeMoH,but I wanted to know what the cashier said to starship.
Report casemoney May 22, 2018 10:11 PM BST
Peanuts and Monkeys  ,I managed for Ladbrokes among Others ,Had that happened in any shop I managed ,who ever called would have been Told in no uncertain Manner to **** Orf Grin But then The wxnkers can cancel the Bet from Head office these Days ..Brave souls they are and Leave the poor fxcker in the Shop to face the Music ..

The more of the Sh1tholes that get closed down the better IMVHO.
Report starship May 22, 2018 10:13 PM BST
exactly as i said as far i was concerned i on at the prices.
rung up customers service and theytold me the prices were there when i asked for the bet, but by the time i had changed the £100 to £50
the prices had changed and there was nothing i could do about it
Report JML May 22, 2018 10:18 PM BST
starship--who wrote the prices on your slip?
Report starship May 22, 2018 10:24 PM BST
the cashier after ringing up head office for the prices
Report layemall May 22, 2018 10:33 PM BST
case money...totally agree with the sentiment....it happens now because they can...i.e put bet in machine and comes up void..so no way vcan a manager pay that bet out at his/her discretion...I assume all discretion has been taken away from managers....used to be £50.......but reckon back then ...if the trading office had been ignored by a manager......said manager would be facing a disciplinary.....I also worked as a manager/supervisor and security.
Report JML May 22, 2018 10:33 PM BST
In that case I'd give them ONE last chance to pay
making sure that they understand that you will
go to the small claims court if they refuse.
Report JML May 23, 2018 4:14 AM BST
I suspect that they changed the prices immediately they finished speaking to the cashier
which would mean that they knew your bet was always going to be late,because the cashier had to explain
that it's a £50 double,you then had to change the amount and return the slip to the cashier.

That would account for the 70 seconds.

Since this incident is so deceitful I'd inform the Gambling Commission even if you do get paid the correct amount.
Report ronnie rails May 23, 2018 8:19 AM BST
layemall

re "case money...totally agree with the sentiment....it happens now because they can...i.e put bet in machine and comes up void..so no way can a manager pay that bet out at his/her discretion...I assume all discretion has been taken away from managers....used to be £50.......but reckon back then ...if the trading office had been ignored by a manager......said manager would be facing a disciplinary.....I also worked as a manager/supervisor and security."

All late and void bets with Koral now HAVE to be cleared by security, and we all know what the answer will be, sad to say that you are correct and all discretion has been taken away. I remember a few years ago getting a rollicking for paying out on a sleeper, if I did it now I would be probably sacked, as far as I am concerned not giving the money to someone who you know has won is dishonest to say the least, so where is this fair and open policy.
Report WHOKNOWSTHEBOWLER May 23, 2018 8:21 AM BST
Small Claims court will not entertain you! As Gambling debts/cases are not recoverable by law.
It's time we did away with Bookmakers - They squeal about FOBT's even though most people will go back to betting on horses or football or dogs, they now have free rein to the sports markets of USA, hence all there shares going back up above the levels they dropped to after FOBT announcement. Futhermore as a % they give f*** all back to racing . This is why a day at the races with a decent view, couPLe of drinks and biTE to eat cost upwards of £100 before you have a bet.
France , Japan, virtually everywhere else has it right - TOTE SYSTEM & COURSE BOOKMAKERS ONLY! MONEY GOES BACK TO RACING - THIS IS WHY ALL THESE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES HAVE FANTASTIC COURSES AND FACILITIES AT THE RIGHT PRICE. Time to stop LADBROKES, WILLIAM HILL, CORAL ETC taking money out of the game to buy hotels property and fund fat cats!
Report Llamedos May 23, 2018 8:46 AM BST
The Gambling Act 2005 came into force on 1 September 2007. Section 335 of this Act provides that the fact that a contract relates to gambling shall not prevent its enforcement. This is without prejudice to any rule of law preventing the enforcement of a contract on the grounds of unlawfulness (other than a rule relating specifically to gambling). In other words, a gambling debt can be legally enforced, as long as it relates to gambling that is lawful. Gambling is lawful in the United Kingdom if it is permitted under the Gambling Act 2005 or the National Lottery etc. Act 1993, or is pursuant to the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. So you can allow deductions for gambling debts if they can be legally enforced. This will include, for example, debts that arose from betting and gambling at licensed casinos and betting shops. You should not allow debts that relate to gambling that is not legal under the relevant legislation.
Before 1 September 2007 all gambling debts in England, Wales and Scotland were unenforceable. So, gambling debts of any kind that were incurred before this date are not valid deductions.
Report sparrow May 23, 2018 9:14 AM BST
WHOKNOWSTHEBOWLER    23 May 18 08:21 
TOTE SYSTEM & COURSE BOOKMAKERS ONLY! MONEY GOES BACK TO RACING - THIS IS WHY ALL THESE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES HAVE FANTASTIC COURSES AND FACILITIES AT THE RIGHT PRICE. Time to stop LADBROKES, WILLIAM HILL, CORAL ETC taking money out of the game to buy hotels property and fund fat cats!




We are here on a betting exchange but you have failed to mention this at all.
Report hulk23 May 23, 2018 9:17 AM BST
llamedos correct.  doesn't cover ROI but a letter before action should ensure your grievance is taken much more seriously ...
Report JML May 23, 2018 11:24 AM BST
I remember a few years ago getting a rollicking for paying out on a sleeper, if I did it now I would be probably sacked, as far as I am concerned not giving the money to someone who you know has won is dishonest to say the least, so where is this fair and open policy.


Is there any limit to the depths the bookmaking industry can sink to?
Report impossible123 May 23, 2018 12:19 PM BST
The present day bookies are betting/gaming legalised "thieves" with no conscience, only totally self regards; there also are the blood suckers of horse racing revenues, and not fit for purpose.

I think it is a mistake 'ladcrookes' and 'ok koral' were allowed to merge and then be taken over by GVC, an external betting entity behemoth.
Report dave1357 May 23, 2018 1:25 PM BST
WHOKNOWSTHEBOWLER • May 23, 2018 8:21 AM BST
Small Claims court will not entertain you! As Gambling debts/cases are not recoverable by law.


I suppose it is something that it took so long for someone to spout this rubbish.  It's usually in the first post/comments when gambling and law is discussed.
Report DIE LINKE May 23, 2018 1:56 PM BST
Very impressed by the quality of your handwriting.
Report west zai May 23, 2018 3:01 PM BST
It happened to me in August in Watford high street ladbrokes. Had £60 at 16 on a horse . Sent it to bac was told bet was ok. Left the shop went back 10 mins later and was told bet was void. Refused to give slip back. Horse won. Ibas still dealing with it!!!!
Report impossible123 May 23, 2018 3:12 PM BST
Cut and shut case, I'd have thought. To a lay person a legally binding contract has been opened and closed by an appointed representative of the entity concerned unless contract relating to betting/gaming is entirely different.
Report Aviboyd May 23, 2018 3:13 PM BST
^ August Cry, IBAS employees not worth the oxygen imo.
Report BARROWBOY May 23, 2018 3:18 PM BST
9 months to deal with a simple case like that is pathetic.the only way to get a quick resolution these days is to plaster it all over social media,the one thing they hate is bad negative publicity.
Report hulk23 May 23, 2018 3:21 PM BST
totally ridiculous, like going into a shop taking a pair of jeans up to the counter saying i quite fancy these here's the £40.  ohh you fancy them do you .... hang on, they're actually £50 ...
Report pablo-fanque May 23, 2018 3:28 PM BST
Very impressed by the quality of your handwriting.

+1
Report Northofperth May 23, 2018 10:37 PM BST
The big bookmakers seem to be run by totally unsporting accountants , and would rather spend time and money campaigning on FOBT's and putting out blatant propaganda regards their deals and online games , rather than take a bet . They don't seem to be able to see the bigger picture . I remember hearing from a local small bookie , that he liked to have successful punters . He said that if it was continual losses for a punter , they would become disillusioned and stop gambling . The balance sheet mentality of the big bookies can't start to fathom this sort of thinking .
Report impossible123 May 24, 2018 12:20 AM BST
Sole aim of big bookmakers = max annual profit = shareholders = bonus for head honchos.
Report Burkey1885 May 24, 2018 6:39 AM BST
Ladcrooks is now mafia style bookmarking !  Same happend to me , last year bet a horse 9/2 guy wrote price on slip , the early price marcket was still up , fully 6 min later guy come from behind counters and , said traders , say you can only have 11/4 I said that’s the point show price I bet on the early price marcket ,  when a punter placed a bet he or she gets a receipt , it’s been a bidndibg rule since bookmarking started , ladcrookes now have decided they can rip punters off who have placed bets in good faith , ibas have no integrity , and basically pander and look after the bookmakers interests , they are not interred in any facts , they don’t even contact the shop staff , in question to see thier side of events ,  I stated watch the cctv speak to the staff , they replied ladcrooks , stated I had put the price of my own accord , they lied and ibas know this but they sweep under the carpet , you can take bookmakers to small claims coat , the guy on here used to do it , he used to help others with betting disputes , he told me they akways pay up day before Court  case don’t want bad publicity  I wd advice the small claims court , nothing to loose !
Report Burkey1885 May 24, 2018 6:45 AM BST
Ps I know 3 managers and since they have merged with oh crook corals , thier number  of complaints regarding betting disputes have trebled , oh crook corals traders now run the show , mafia style bookmaking .  Guy placed £500 on the base ball using the laddie crooked machine , hey bet the outsiders 13/8  and we’re way ahead when the game got suspended for just over an hour , they then resumed play and won easily , he went to collect the bet and was told the bet was void ! If they had been beat no way he wd have got his money bsck , it legalised corruption with these cowboys now !
Report longbridge May 24, 2018 12:11 PM BST
@burkey1885

"I wd advice the small claims court , nothing to loose !"

Nothing to win, either - his horse finished last, so no matter how despicable the bookies' behaviour was, he's not out of pocket by a penny, which doesn't make for a useful SCC action...
Report dukeofpuke May 24, 2018 12:13 PM BST
have a look on twitter justice for punters and paul fairhead deal with this all day long so can offer plenty of advice
Report JML May 24, 2018 12:25 PM BST
Agree with the duke---Paul Fairhead is the expert.
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