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29 Jan 18 10:12
Date Joined: 14 Dec 17
| Topic/replies: 12,095 | Blogger: DenzilPenberthy's blog
Has anyone else done what I do and not watch ATR/RUK/ITV due to mainly the dishonesty surrounding betting?
The constant lies regarding bets struck from bookmaker reps and supposed trusted faces in the industry
The relentless advertising (I know it's everywhere) portraying betting companies as willing participants only too happy to take your bets
The blatant ignorance/non reporting of true betting for ordinary punters like ridiculous restrictions and not being allowed to win
"Betting/tipping" experts who boast of bets they strike at "value" prices which now don't exist whilst ordinary punters can't bet
The wall of silence from trainers/owners when it comes to punters being turned away DESPITE punters' money being the main source of funding for prize money in the sport
Media,journalistic and industry lies regarding betting with corruption looking likely in one form or another whether it concerns hospitality,advertising revenue or even share values

The snakes of the industry like to make out that we've never had it so good and the racing world is an open and honest place welcoming all though we know that's not the case

Nowadays if I want to watch a race that I've bet on I watch the LV on here and watch free replays if I choose but at least I don't feel like I've sold my soul everyday trying to be involved in the sport I've loved since childhood
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Report foxy January 29, 2018 11:28 AM GMT
I blame brexit
Report jmdc January 29, 2018 12:12 PM GMT
I have totally boycotted ITV now, whenever Plunkett is on. Her total disrespect for men with her touchy, touchy, feely antics, every time a man gets close to her, is destroying people's attitudes towards the female sex.  Men have always respected women up till now, and it would be disappointing if this situation were to deteriorate. Surely there could be a position for a walk-on girl on The Opening Show, or perhaps even with a mike at the end of every race to make the jockey feel he is appreciated.
Report DenzilPenberthy January 29, 2018 12:16 PM GMT
Didn't even know they kept Plunkett on
Report DenzilPenberthy January 29, 2018 12:29 PM GMT
It has a knock on effect as my attitude towards the game has changed,last year I didn't go to the races once despite being out during racetime almost every afternoon.I chose carveries,scenery and wildlife over trips to the races the costs are negligible as food and petrol are the biggest expenses.
Report s.kenbo January 29, 2018 4:09 PM GMT
This sounds like a pathetic crusade to me.

Why are people so easily offended about fook all?
Report sparrow January 29, 2018 4:11 PM GMT
Report hulk23 January 29, 2018 4:13 PM GMT
still waiting for barry to tell me how much it took to knock a 12's shot into 8's ... more or less than £2.81
Report DenzilPenberthy January 29, 2018 7:06 PM GMT
Joined: 05 Aug 12
| Topic/replies: 15,297 | Blogger: s.kenbo's blog
This sounds like a pathetic crusade to me.

Why are people so easily offended about fook all?

Not offended at all just don't have time for liars and thieves who gladly go along with the betting industry charade
Report DenzilPenberthy January 29, 2018 7:19 PM GMT
It's no wonder the gravy slurpers are still around there's only me who stopped watching the s hite Grin
Report sageform January 29, 2018 7:26 PM GMT
It is your choice to watch or not as you please but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make to the rest of us. I would not watch Strictly or Dancing on Ice for 100 pounds an hour but I don't begrudge anyone else the pleasure of watching it. I have enjoyed horse racing for 60 plus years and would still watch every day whether there was betting or not.
Report DenzilPenberthy January 29, 2018 7:37 PM GMT
My first question was the point has anyone else done what I do and not watch ATR/RUK/ITV due to mainly the dishonesty surrounding betting?
TBH I didn't think I'd be the only one who is a full time punter and doesn't sit through this daily,mind you I used to up until the last 2/3 years. 

The rest was just my own reasoning and how it's changed the way I live regarding racing as my attitude has changed,I'd sooner be elsewhere than watch the gravy slurpers lie through their teeth or give distorted views of the betting situation.
Report Barton Bank January 29, 2018 7:48 PM GMT
I will continue to watch the racing. It is essential to what I do, simple as that. A lot of what you say is fair comment, particularly about the largely odious liars representing bookmakers on both RUK and ATR, though why you expect owners and trainers to go out and shout from the rooftops about bookmakers not accomodating bets from punters is more of a mystery.
Report sageform January 29, 2018 7:49 PM GMT
Which suggests that you are watching racing as a betting medium, not as a sport to enjoy.
Report sageform January 29, 2018 7:51 PM GMT
Sorry Barton, my comment was not aimed at you as your post only came up after I wrote it.
Report Barton Bank January 29, 2018 7:51 PM GMT
Mostly, yes. I would think that is the case for the majority of viewers, certainly midweek.
Report Barton Bank January 29, 2018 7:52 PM GMT
Oh right. Fair enough.
Report sageform January 29, 2018 7:54 PM GMT
I certainly have a bet most days but as I said below, I would still watch racing if no betting was allowed.
Report DenzilPenberthy January 29, 2018 7:54 PM GMT
The reason for that Barton is many are under the illusion that there aren't enough people wanting to bet with bookmakers on the sport and that clearly isn't the case.
A few years back I saw an interview with Andrew Balding at somewhere like Lingfield where he cited the falling Levy and prize money problems due to lack of punter interest,when the truth is that ordinary punters are being stopped from betting and forced away from racing due to restrictions.
Through all of this owners and trainers seem unaffected by such scenarios when they are in priviliged positions info wise.
Report sageform January 29, 2018 8:09 PM GMT
A few may be in a privileged position but I have owned horses on and off for 50 years and find trainers only average tipsters with a few exceptions, owners are nearly always over optimistic and jockeys often clueless. My biggest winner prize money wise was Lucky Bay at Newbury when Henrietta Knight told Jim Cullotty to make sure he finished as there was prize money for all 6 runners and the head lad told us that the horse was very slow and had no chance. It won quite easily at 14/1 outsider of 6 and naturally all of the owners backed it. That kind of thing is common ( and I am sure the professionals believed it had no chance) but on another occasion our trainer (I won't embarrass him by name) told us we could have the mortgage on our horse and it won 10 lengths at 10/1 in its first handicap.
Report Barton Bank January 29, 2018 8:10 PM GMT
In the short term I would watch (some of the better) racing if betting wasn't allowed. Not sure how long it would hold my interest though! Immaterial anyway as I don't think the sport would survive without betting.

I am an owner. I would appreciate better prize money. I am not in the position of being able to take prices with bookmakers.
Report Barton Bank January 29, 2018 8:12 PM GMT
In terms of info, you don't expect the trainer to tell you the horse is going to win and get it right on a regular basis! I make up my own mind about what chance I think it has (having usually been involved with placement/race selection) though I will ask how he/she has been working, good gallops reports do not always correlate with good performances on the track.
Report DenzilPenberthy January 29, 2018 8:17 PM GMT
An extreme example going back a few years is this ignore the aftertime it was years ago
Remember the owner of Son Of Flicka backing him to win a £1,000,000+ Coral Cup 2012.
About 2 years ago a relative who I hadn't seen for 15 years or so turned up out the blue,we went through the usual bolox what have you done with your life etc.
He proceeds to tell me about a guy he knows who won £1m backing his own horse at 66/1 at Cheltenham.
I immediately said Son Of Flicka he said how did u know? I said I knew because I went round 4 or 5 shops getting on what I could and whatever as I couldn't get enough on online.
He didn't and doesn't believe me to this day as he knows what Phil Williams bet on that horse and thinks I talk sh ite about getting knocked back by bookmakers as I'm not a multi millionaire and his mate is.
Report sageform January 29, 2018 8:20 PM GMT
The main benefit of knowing a trainer through ownership is an understanding of how they operate. Some like to make a flying start to a season, others don't really get going until 3 months later, some will keep going through a lean spell, others shut up shop (the latter is usually the correct decision)
Report Aladdin Sane January 29, 2018 8:20 PM GMT
May I just make a couple of points as I do understand some of your frustration Denzil.  I haven’t got to your stage of refusing to watch just yet, but I do get where you’re coming from in some aspects of racing coverage.
I have to say one area where I really get fed up is the endless supply of Bookie Reps constantly being wheeled on to spout their propaganda. 
Do the bookies control racing in this country so much that the TV companies have to have them on so much? And, if that IS the case, is that why almost everything they say always seems to be accepted and never challenged by any pundit?

I also get fed up with the constant eulogising over every winning ride and yet, if you believed the racing pundits, a bad ride doesn’t seem to exist in the sport (unless of course, it’s a foreign jockey in a race thousands of miles away who they’re not going to bump into outside the weighing room).
I can think of no other sport that has pundits so reluctant to criticise.  In football a bad miss is called a bad miss, a bad tackle is called out as a bad tackle. In cricket a bad shot is identified as a bad shot and likewise a bad delivery.  In racing a bad ride will be covered up by any number of excuses by the racing pundit or, even easier and more likely, not even mentioned.
Having said that we’ve come a long way since the ITV seven and the coverage has no doubt improved markedly - if only it didn’t have SO much bookie influence and fence sitting by those that we pay to cover it..
Report Barton Bank January 29, 2018 8:21 PM GMT
Above may well be true. Getting a bet on at the Cheltenham Festival is more feasible than any other meeting even for a heavily restricted punter, particularly if prepared to go round the shops/employ others to go round the shops.
Report Barton Bank January 29, 2018 8:22 PM GMT
The way I see it, he pays to keep the horse in training and he fancied it for the big day. Probably most owners in that race backed their horses and didn't collect. The horse had been campaigned honestly. Good luck to him.
Report sageform January 29, 2018 8:27 PM GMT
I must admit that I hardly listen to what goes on between races as I am concentrating on other things like horse form, the stock market etc. on my computer and only turn up the volume as the race starts. Once in a while some nuggets appear as from Hayley Moore today who tipped all three of her father's winners.
Report DenzilPenberthy January 29, 2018 8:32 PM GMT
Aladdin Sane your first paragraph regarding bookie reps is a biggie as we know they are telling lies and as you say they aren't challenged at all therefore all are complicit.

Barton all was true and you're right it was genuinely campaigned the ground was a huge factor and it was well in on last years run on the day.
My relative lives under the illusion that you can bet what you want and if you say you can't you have delusions of grandeur (betting wise in my case) as his mate p isses on anythink the likes of me could dream of (in his eyes).
Report Studious_1 January 29, 2018 9:12 PM GMT
Aladdin, I agree with you regarding most pundits eulogising over winning rides and being afraid to call out bad rides or indeed even ones which look at best dodgy and at worst corrupt.

The problem with comparing them with football pundits unfortunately is money.  Most pundits need their wages, a few names could get by without but the rest do it for wages.  Whenever anyone has stepped 'out of line', like Lydia with AP @ which all she did was call it as we all saw it, you end up with your career on the line seemingly. 

Take football pundits, Shearer etc - their financial future is sorted whether they are on the box or not.   NFL, Romo, Gruden - same thing.  Tennis, Croft, Wilander....same thing. 

In racing if you call a ride bad or ill-judged - in effect whether intended or not you're casting a doubt on the integrity of the rider due to the fact the sport has such a close link to betting - unlike the sports mentioned above.

Even if you say 'well that was an ill-judged ride, he got that totally wrong but I'm sure he was trying his best he just miscalculated the soft pace ahead of him and the ground he had given away' - even that has an attached element of 'aspersion' within it no matter what you prefix your commentary with.

A jock might complain, (or refuse the channel subsequent interviews like AP did @ Ascot) and the pundit is left wide open for attack by the inside circle of racing (jocks/trainers) with only a round of applause from a few blokes at home.   The problem is those of us applauding aren't paying his future wages nor guaranteeing them.

Point being is for most pundits, they say something 'contentious' depending on who they upset they get into hot water they might not have a gig again after that - it's just not worth it.  If you have a family to feed and a comfortable job doing something you enjoy which is passing comment on a sport you hopefully love, you do what you can to keep that status quo.

It won't ever change - the 'inner circle' of the sport is very 'precious' and that apple cart isn't allowed to endure unnecessary tough passage from anyone.

On the plus side - I can assure you if you sit down with most pundits after racing in a pub over a pint and speak frankly about racing you'll be flabbergasted as to what they'll say behind closed doors when the camera isn't on them.

As for the bookies and their reps - extortioners and the purveyors of lies would be my summary for both parties.
Report DenzilPenberthy January 29, 2018 9:14 PM GMT
Can anyone remember that night when Lydia Hislop and Steve Mellish opened up the floor on betting restrictions whilst Kempton was on.They were inundated with emails and even Steve said he knows he wouldn't be able to bet if he wasn't in the position he's in,next day they slated by Simon Clare et al. and we basically heard nothing else on RUK thereafter.
Report DenzilPenberthy January 29, 2018 9:17 PM GMT
Regarding criticism of rides I doubt anyone will forget that sh ithawk McCoy and the "How many winners have you ridden?" to Lydia that was f ing low imo Angry
Report Studious_1 January 29, 2018 9:23 PM GMT
It was and I felt very sorry for her as she's a terrific advocate of the sport and always has been.  She's not been nearly as outspoken at times as she could have been since - left it's mark that episode imo and is the 'showcase' example as to why others don't step out of line to call a spade a spade as she did in that example.
Report Aladdin Sane January 29, 2018 10:07 PM GMT
Some very good points really well made Studious_1..
I understand the points you make about money, but a lot of these pundits are professional journalists and occasionally, and I DO mean occasionally, when a question needs to be asked or constructive negative comment made, I would have hoped that their conscience would be put before money.  But that, of course, is easy for me to say from the comfort of my armchair..
Report onlooker January 29, 2018 10:30 PM GMT
DenzilPenberthy    29 Jan 18 21:14 

Can anyone remember that night when Lydia Hislop and Steve Mellish opened up the floor on betting restrictions whilst Kempton was on.
They were inundated with emails and even Steve said he knows he wouldn't be able to bet if he wasn't in the position he's in,next day they slated by Simon Clare et al. and we basically heard nothing else on RUK thereafter.

Yes - Correct ... and best-ever evening from Kempton - sadly lost in the annals of history.
Report FiveTimes January 29, 2018 11:43 PM GMT
What was the build up to McCoy saying what he did to Lydia hislop?
Report stu January 29, 2018 11:44 PM GMT
Watching the sport is fine (and necessary of course if punting) - but mute button for 99.9% of the 'opinions' that are spouted around from the TV coverage, I agree OP.

Problem is that 90% of the programs are opinions sadly, rather than actually showing the races themselves - would be better to just keep a repeat showing of races and get rid of most of the hot air they broadcast continually.

Bookies coverage on the channels - they are adverts, nothing less or more.
Report DenzilPenberthy January 30, 2018 12:04 AM GMT
29 Jan 18 23:43
Joined: 20 Feb 12
| Topic/replies: 149 | Blogger: FiveTimes's blog
What was the build up to McCoy saying what he did to Lydia hislop?

The original huffing started in 2007 when McCoy reacted with his famous quote (incidentally Frankie Dettori quit his post with The Times whom she worked for after she criticised one of his rides)
The next that made the headlines was a ride on Get Me Out Of Here and we all know the type of JP saved for another ride which they've continuously got away with over the years.
Report greenhill January 30, 2018 2:57 AM GMT
Re the OP me too for the same reasons > 3yrs ago and I do not miss it.If many of us feel the same then a planned mass e mailing to the heads of the company's concerned explaining why might be worth attempting.? I think the other issue which is finally receiving publicity from the unbought sources is that many of those punters who have stopped watching racing will also have stopped trying to get a bet and as a result lost interest full stop and left the sport.

I know plenty will think or say "well use this place" I did and received the PC which I will not pay on principle.This came as a shock because my winnings where very low five fig.I am no super judge just a form book punter who having spent many years learning how not to lose is now prevented from attempting to win.

The majority of punters remain unaffected by these restrictions so why should they care ? all I would say is that you could be next and it is not a pleasant experience. When I tell non racing friends that large bookmaking concerns now offer max bets of pennies at the price to some customers they do not believe me and who can blame them.

We will only make any progress if more of us work collectively and support those who are attempting to raise awareness of what is happening.I became disillusioned with the HBF but fair dues at last they do appear to be making some progress. The Justice For Punters Org are in my view our best hope they are pro active and often responsible for the increasing unbiased media coverage and meetings with Gov Depts and MPs but they need our support to progress matters.
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