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MJK
30 Jul 16 17:59
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Date Joined: 13 May 10
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Do his conkers today?

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Replies: 81
By:
themightymac
When: 30 Jul 16 18:50
I remember when he was a very good trainer. Not half as good nowadays.
By:
themightymac
When: 30 Jul 16 18:51
I remember betting one of his in his early days named Lazy Dynamite which won at 33/1. I had it on the Tote and it paid 100/1 Grin
By:
ima_mazed66
When: 31 Jul 16 12:20
Still is a very good trainer but they can't do it without the horses.

It was only just over a year ago that he won the King George and his reward for that from the owner was to remove his whole string from the yard.
By:
unitedbiscuits
When: 31 Jul 16 12:53
He does not bet. Very good trainer. Remember HRAC before you start digging him out.
By:
cooperman
When: 31 Jul 16 13:32
If Francesca was my daughter she'd still be 'avin two baths a day Blush
By:
impossible123
When: 31 Jul 16 20:21
Cumani is still a very good trainer who is extremely patient with his horses. I still remember the days of Markofdistinction, Commanche Run, Bairn, Kahyasi, etc. Cumani was also responsible for and ought to be given the credit for the progression of Postponed and a few others who were in his charge last year.

Despite fallen out of favour with the owner of Postponed and principal supporter Cumani has been courteous and dignified towards his former client.
By:
isleham
When: 31 Jul 16 20:47
Lost sheik Mohammed,the aga khan and now sheik Mohammed obaida..it could be said that's worse than careless
By:
impossible123
When: 31 Jul 16 21:25
Sheikh Mohammed - so did HRAC - the Sheikh had intentions of setting up his own
Aga Khan - nothing to do with him - over a drug testing procedure/dispute not in line with other European countries
Odaida - a newcomer to the game who is obnoxious and impatient owner

The above cannot be blamed on Cumani.
By:
lead on
When: 31 Jul 16 22:09
As regards Obaidah,I'd bet Varian is walking on eggshells when dealing with the arrogant,spoilt c@nt
By:
Sir Epicure Mammon
When: 31 Jul 16 22:40
Obaida looks like a Bond villain. He's hardly a newcomer to the game is he impossible123? Had horses in training for years...
By:
Cash Is King
When: 31 Jul 16 22:49
Cumani is well past his sell by date. To stick with the James Bond analogy, losing one major owner is happenstance,  losing two is coincidence,  losing three is "enemy action"/ incompetence.

Cumani treading the same path as Donald McCain jnr.
By:
GEORGE.B
When: 31 Jul 16 23:04
Was it ever revealed why Odaida removed his horses?

Apparently Postponed didn't run in the Arc last year as they didn't want to be seen to be running "Luca's horse", but surely there will always be an element of that no matter what the horse achieves for Varian?

Who can say the horse would have achieved what he has if he had been with Varian from the outset? I'm not saying he wouldn't have, but clearly Postponed had been tremendously well nurtured and trained by Cumani and that has enabled the horse to thrive as he has, and perhaps those having a pop at Cumani should remember that!
By:
ima_mazed66
When: 01 Aug 16 00:08
Plenty of big name trainers like Clive Brittain, Henry Cecil, Guy Harwood/Amanda Perratt, John Gosden, Barry Hills, Michael Jarvis, Mark Johnston, Michael Stoute and Geoff Wragg will have either lost Sheikh Mo's horses or not had any more sent to them once he set up Godolphin, so it wasn't just Luca Cumani who was affected by that decision.

Cumani won the Derby for Sheikh Obaid as far back as 1998 and so he's not really a newcomer to the game and the Aga Khan despite Cumani winning a Derby for him too, also effectively took his horses away from Fulke Johnson Houghton and Stoute over the drugs disqualification of his filly in the Oaks, plus recently decided not to send John Oxx any more yearlings despite the amount of success he has had for him in the past.

No doubt some would have also suggested Henry Cecil was well past his sell by date when he went around 6 years or so without training a group 1 winner and one season only trained about a dozen winners too, until being sent the likes of Frankel, Light Shift, Midday, Nobel Mission, Passage Of Time and Twice Over.

Donald McCain did well to reach 50 winners last season all things considered and his horses have generally been in very good from lately but as with Cumani, any trainer who loses their biggest owner numerically is likely to suffer as a result of that and as for why Sheikh Obaid moved his horses to Roger Varian, I suspect that after playing musical jockeys when his horses were with Cumani, once Andrea Atzeni went to Varian, maybe he wanted him to ride his horses and moving them would make him available to do so more often than not.
By:
differentdrum
When: 01 Aug 16 09:10
Unless there is a rapid change of fortune it surely isn't that unfair to label Cumani 'yesterday's man'.

Even with the removals (for which some people who increasingly look for excuses want to lambast the owners) he almost certainly still has a bigger string than many trainers who produce far more winners. Isn't that what training is about, rather than talking about how he used to mop up the Extel 40 years ago?

And he still has the Stud to fall back on. How about buying some horses with the idea of winning races and then seeing if he can make a success of selling them on?

The degree to which he is assumed to have 'made' Postponed is pure guesswork. The fact is the horse has shown improved form since he left Cumani.

Without the globetrotting exploits of Presvis the cupboard has been pretty bare for many years.

I think we all know the press will never ask any difficult questions but how many more years can he realistically go on living off distant memories?
By:
impossible123
When: 01 Aug 16 09:45
What did John Ferguson say about a trainer and a horse?

He said a good horse will not run faster with a good trainer but a good horse will run slower with a not so good trainer. So, has Postponed run slower when he was with Cumani? I'd say, an emphatic no. Postponed has matured and progressed since last year mainly due to the fact that Cumani had been patient with him and allowed this development and progress to come through. Postponed won the King George under the syewardship of Cymani, did he not? Surely, that's a testament in itself, I'd have thought.
By:
A_T
When: 01 Aug 16 10:05
Must be loads in Newmarket who live in fear of the latest whim of their UAE owner. Probably only Stoute and Gosden are in positions of power.
By:
ima_mazed66
When: 01 Aug 16 11:29
If I go out today and it rains and I get wet, that's not me making excuses for being wet, it just happens to be the reason for it.

So how Sheikh Mo, the Aga Khan and Sheikh Obaid moving their horses is seen as an excuse for Cumani or anyone is lambasting the owners is beyond me, when it's a fact and reason that setting up Godolphin saw many trainers lose horses, the Aga Khan effectively barred himself and his horses from UK racing due to his filly being disqualified and Sheikh Obaid has previous for launching the toys from the pram too. A certain jockey lost the ride on his horses when Afsare refused to go into the stalls and again it's beyond me how that's the jockey's fault and then the horses did it again later for the then Champion Jockey too!

If Khalid Abdullah had taken Frankel away for Henry Cecil after the St James's Palace Stakes run or Kingman from John Gosden after the 2,000gns, would people have been querying the degree to which they were assumed to have 'made' those two horses as pure guesswork and suggesting the fact was the horses has shown improved form since having left? Maybe they did show improved form but had they have moved we could quite reasonably have asked how does anyone know they also wouldn't have shown that same improved form had they not moved? Yet we don't need to ask now do we?

It's not as if Postponed was just a Listed race winner under Cumani and then Varian improved it to Group level, the horse had already won a few Group races and up to Gr1 and do you really think it wouldn't have won the Coronation Cup this season if still with Cumani?

Just out of interest too, can we use the same logic when saying Varian improved Postponed to say Cumani improved Starcraft or Mount Athos then?
By:
GEORGE.B
When: 01 Aug 16 11:37
Cumani bought a handicapper called Alkaased from Stoutey for around 45,000 gns and turned it into a Japan Cup winner!
By:
Hound-Dog-2
When: 01 Aug 16 11:46
".....Postponed had been tremendously well nurtured and trained by Cumani and that has enabled the horse to thrive as he has, and perhaps those having a pop at Cumani should remember that !"

Exactly.
By:
impossible123
When: 01 Aug 16 12:37
Trainers like Bolger and Gosden with their breeding businesses are set-up and little influenced by the patronage of the 'oil' money owners; the likes of Cumani and Stoute have achieved and surpassed their aims, and do not care a hoot if the 'oil' money are no longer in their satchels as they are near retirement with their accolades achieved and integrity intact. 

The contributors here who had been following horse racing since the late 70's would appreciate the achievements of the above mentioned trainers over the past number of decades no matter what.
By:
Swardean
When: 01 Aug 16 13:56
He always has been an underachiever.  His horses are overbet and overrated.
By:
ima_mazed66
When: 01 Aug 16 14:55
Well then he must be a 100+ group race winning underachiever, including 2 Derby wins, a St Leger, Irish Derby, Irish 1000, Irish 2000, Irish Champion Stakes and winner of several Group 1 or Grade 1 races in Canada, Dubai, France, Germany, Hong Kong, Italy, Singapore and the US, including races like the:

Canadian International Stakes, E. P. Taylor Stakes (x2), Dubai Duty Free, Hong Kong Cup, HK's Queen Elizabeth II Cup, Italian Derby, Italian Oaks (x2), Japan Cup, Arlington Million and Breeders's Cup mile and has had success with horses like:

Alkaased, Barathea, Commanche Run, Ensconse, Falbrav, Free Guest, Gossamer, High-Rise, Kahyasi, Kissogram, Legal Case, Markofdistinction, Presvis, Second Set, Then Again and Tolomeo, as well as Group  race success in Australia and going close a number of times to winning the Melbourne Cup. He's also seen his former assistants like John Berry, Marco Botti, Jonathan Portman, David Simcock, James Toller and Chris Wall all set up as trainers themselves and that's after he himself was assistant to Henry Cecil before going it alone.

You can also add in winning some of the most competitive top handicap races like the Ebor several times too.
By:
Swardean
When: 01 Aug 16 15:17
He has been training since 1976, so that is just over 2 group winners a year.  His volume of horses and quality of owner, imo makes this nothing out of the ordinary.
By:
Swardean
When: 01 Aug 16 15:20
How many group winners have his peers, Stoute and Cecil had during the same period?
By:
Ekbalco
When: 01 Aug 16 15:25
Fish & Chips.

The Extel . . . .
By:
postmannick
When: 01 Aug 16 15:44
its called the law of sod but pinstripe in the last at kempton today could give our man a winner
By:
impossible123
When: 01 Aug 16 15:47
I think it is not a fair comparison with Cecil or Stoute as I believe Cumani did not have the patronage of Sheikh Mohammed, Khalid Abdullah, Stavros Niarchos, Daniel Widenstein, Howard de Walden, Lord Weinstock or Hamdan Al Maktoum, etc, either which accounted for a large majority of the winners for Cecil and Stoute.
By:
johnnyrant
When: 01 Aug 16 15:50
Luca is lacking the firepower of old after Obaid Al Maktoum took all his horses away from him. Postponed was being lined up for the Arc last year by Luca & imho would have pushed Golden Horn very hard for the win on his favoured good ground.

Unfathomable why he would remove all his horses that were being so meticulously nurtured by Luca - btw, Varian hasn't done anything of note with any of the ex-Obaid horses this year. And Postponed would have been winning G1s with Luca this year. To say he is over-rated as a trainer and/or over the hill is absurd imho.
By:
Swardean
When: 01 Aug 16 16:22
I think most of them had horses with Luca impossible. As well as a string of other top owners.
By:
impossible123
When: 01 Aug 16 16:35
Swardean

I beg to differ, but even if they did Cumani would not have 1st call on any of their purchases/yearlings.
By:
notenough
When: 01 Aug 16 21:32
I think it was Giles Bravery who was asked what his ambitions were when he started training in the late 80s
He replied, 'To have as many horses as Luca Cumani, and train as many winners as Henry Cecil.
By:
notenough
When: 01 Aug 16 21:41
Stuart Williams ,D. O'Meara and Mick Appleby he ain't.

He is a much better businessman than most of his peers, and his hype is first class.

Surprised that no one mentioned PAMONA in the list of horses he has trained
By:
ima_mazed66
When: 02 Aug 16 13:26
From the list of owners named above, I can remember Sheikh Mohammed having horses with Luca Cumani and those included:

Barathea - winning the Breeders' Cup Mile, Irish 2000gns and Queen Anne at Royal Ascot,
Ensconse - the Irish 1000gns, Inner City the Mill Reef Stakes at Newmarket,
Red Slippers - the Sun Chariot at Newmarket,
Shamshir - the Gr1 Fillies Mile at Ascot,
Shaima - the Long Island Handicap at Belmont in '91, worth around £40k to the winner 25 years ago,
Saxon Maid - the November Handicap  at Donny, Fred Archer at Newmarket and the Silver Cup at York,
Tatami - the Horris Hill at Newbury,

Plus for Lord Weinstock he had a few, the best probably being Bonny Scot who won the Zetland as a 2YO, then the Gordon Stakes at Goodwood and the Great Voltigeur at York at 3. I don't remember Cumani ever having any for the likes of Khalid  Abdullah or Hamdan Al Maktoum though.
By:
Cash Is King
When: 02 Aug 16 15:19
Cumani did indeed train Pamona and the Highclere syndicate that owns her took the decision to transfer her to be trained by Beckett and achieved instant results with a listed win at York. The decision to switch trainers was made for a number of reasons but one of them was frustration with Cumani.
By:
ph.
When: 04 Aug 16 00:27
I think with the Aga and Sheikh Mo he got the hand me downs who occasionally bloomed. He can train but maybe an Italian stubborn streak means it has to be on his terms. Only room for one Boss in an operation. Earlier someone listed the pupil trainers but Frankie,JPS,Fortune and Royston know how to win, not forgetting Kirsty who was uber talented. Adding Darryl,Jean Pierre let alone Felon muddies the waters but I wouldn't lay his personal wagers to mark a card,he has lost interest to a degree and his children are moving onwards and upwards. The Stud is a boon for the pair of them and tbh walking up and down Bayswater Rd pinhooking future artists of repute is probably more satisfying as a married man financially and fulfilling than training a 2 year old to win £4K around Leicester,Nottingham or Yarmouth imo. He made his mark,he may come again but does he want to? He loved the Gerald Leigh connection and I'm sure he learned more than he forgot from Gerald,he learned the training game inside out and is probably at a point where his job isn't everything or fulfilling but he has made the game pay. And that chaps is what life and work is all about.
By:
johnnyrant
When: 04 Aug 16 08:20
Pamona won at York - a muddling track which consistently throws up rogue results, then got stuffed at Goodwood. Can hardly say Beckett has worked his magic on her. A change of scenery probably helped. People were writing similar stuff about HRAC before Frankel came along. Fact is, Luca nurtured Postponed into the great horse he is & Varian hasn't achieved much with all the horses he has been sent bar Postponed.
By:
differentdrum
When: 04 Aug 16 10:37
Put it another way which are the horses that Cumani achieved more with than Varian? I can't think of any.

Banksea was seemingly one of his better and more progressive horses. Ran away with the jockey at Newmarket and then it appeared no lessons were learnt as the horse did exactly the same thing at Goodwood. Two totally wasted runs. Are we just saying the horse has suddenly become unrideable?

Beautiful Morning, possibly the best horse in the yard (and not exactly cheap at 650,000) should have won first time at Newbury. She then held entries in both the Ribblesdale and Oaks but it was only weeks later that the trainer revealed that she had a problem immediately after Newbury. The trainer would have known about those entries but revealed nothing until bookmakers had pocketed any ante-post money. A case of the 'old school' trainer showing a complete disregard for punters. Doesn't seem to tally very well with a daughter who presumably will be trying her best to open the sport up to the public.
By:
johnnyrant
When: 04 Aug 16 12:18
Mount Logan, King Bolete, Ajman Bridge, White Lake - all achieved much more under Luca's care than they have done with Varian. Postponed won the KG on soft ground when he is best on a fast surface - that was some achievement too. Same charge was being made against Stoute last year. Having followed Flat racing for over 30 years, Cumani, Stoute, Cecil are all masters of their craft imho.
By:
notenough
When: 04 Aug 16 14:18
Johnnyrant...
Love the idea that York is a rogue track in comparison to Goodwood. I would say Pamona's improvement at York had more to do with the recognition she wanted a step up in trip, hardly rocket science, I agree ... But seemingly beyond Luca's capability.

Luca has always had a huge string, but never a large haul in terms of winners ... Compared with practically all of his peers. He is an excellent businessman, Certainly much better at that than training horses.

Roger is having a tough year, but he has improved nearly all of his intake from Luca. Imagine what would have happened if RV's horses were healthy?!
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