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sweetnsour
22 Jun 16 07:07
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Date Joined: 06 May 11
| Topic/replies: 1,843 | Blogger: sweetnsour's blog
OUT OUT OUT
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Report paganin June 22, 2016 12:42 PM BST
Oh the Sun has told me and its a copy and paste!!People at Calais are nearly all non EU anyway!!
Report paganin June 22, 2016 12:42 PM BST
Told Mick not me- sorry!
Report Oldgit1 June 22, 2016 12:43 PM BST
MACARONY:
A large part of care especially for the elderly must be conversation and repartee with their carers. My mother did not know who was Prime Minister or the day of the week or often who I was but she could still talk animatedly and amusingly about the past.
Report paganin June 22, 2016 12:46 PM BST
Mick- we won't be able to close our borders immediately friday morning for an out vote! It will take years- at least 2 and more likely way more- and people will still be coming in during this time. If we leave there will be more immigration during this period not less.
Report xmoneyx June 22, 2016 12:48 PM BST
daily mail England -LEAVECrazy
daily mail Scotland-REMAINCrazy
Report xmoneyx June 22, 2016 12:52 PM BST
magic number tomorrow is 23,249,769 - number of votes needed by either side for victory



or bigmarts bank account
Report Oldgit1 June 22, 2016 1:03 PM BST
spyker:
The owner of a care home told me that she knows that any Brits she takes on will not be there for long even though they work well. She gets a rush of applications around March and its from women needing some cash towards their Summer holiday then they leave. She gets more wanting a job in October to help pay for Christmas and then they are off.
Report Can't Catch Me June 22, 2016 1:38 PM BST
Everyone knows the rich are getting richer. Everyone knows the NHS is up to it's neck. Everyone knows the schools are in turmoil. Everyone knows the prisons are full. Everyone knows housing is a disaster. Everyone knows the pensions are in trouble. Everyone knows Dodgy Dave is a lying, cheating scumbag. For goodness sake it's all out in the open.

Can you explain how leaving the EU will help solve any of these problems?
Report paganin June 22, 2016 1:42 PM BST
Of course he cant Cant catch me but why ruin a good tale of utopia outside the EU! He was claiming Boris was honourable and a genuine leave advocate yesterday..... Gove and Johnson amongst other tories on the leave side favour privatisation of the NHS. So the 350 million per week they claim will be pumped back into it is an interesting stat......
Report brigust1 June 22, 2016 1:47 PM BST
Do care homes not feel that their staff are specialised not just low paid? After all it costs at least as much to stay in care home as it does to go to Eton.
The difference is the staff in a care home is low paid whereas the staff at Eton are top of the pile. Someone is creaming off the top.

CCM
First put a brake on the overloaded boat by curbing the influx of non skilled labour to a figure we need and can manage.
And Secondly attract skilled labour from everywhere in the world including the EU. Skilled labour adds much more to the revenue while using much less resources.
With unskilled labour they only add pennies, if that, to the exchequer while putting huge pressure on services. A skilled person would earn mush more, pay a good amount to the Exchequer and use much less resources.


There is a massive imbalanced of labour and the boat is sinking. That imbalance must be addressed. Nothing scaremongering just plain common sense.
Report paganin June 22, 2016 1:51 PM BST
On another note US Army Ranger wont run in the Irish derby this weekend- act now if you wish...... Will be pulled out later today
Report brigust1 June 22, 2016 1:59 PM BST
They are thinking of not running Harzand as well. Perhaps I will play up my REMAIN winnings on Minding. Then again perhaps not.
Report paganin June 22, 2016 2:00 PM BST
I agree Brigust. I would go odds on top two dont run. Idaho value 4s with lads.
Report brigust1 June 22, 2016 2:04 PM BST
That depends upon whether or not they were going to withdraw Harzand because they didn't want him to have another hard race and when they hear USAA isn't running that could change. Best wait till the day.
Report Can't Catch Me June 22, 2016 2:04 PM BST
Red Verdon a huge price imo. Guaranteed runner after being supplemented, will like any cut, and was very unlucky to only finish 6th at Epsom. Already on at 16-1 but still some left
Report paganin June 22, 2016 2:05 PM BST
Good bet CCM and will like the ground for sure.
Report ladycarla June 22, 2016 2:14 PM BST
We will remain because London(6 million) are voting in and scotland (4 million) are voting in, to get back 10 million is a non starter and that's why The PM agreed to have it, total waste of time and money.
Report pete_de June 22, 2016 2:21 PM BST
out out out out
wont be around to see it , but pity the brits in about 5 to 10 years
when the remainers win the vote
Report breadnbutter June 22, 2016 2:21 PM BST
London will be split as will Scotland .

Working poor will be voting out in their droves  ,the people who turned their backs on labour all over the country will vote out

If your an immigrant living in the uk  why would you vote for unlimited immigration to destroy your happy world ?

Leave is the only answer that suits everyone ,Remain suits no one .
Report paganin June 22, 2016 2:24 PM BST
Remain suits no one! Another lovely generalistic statement. How on earth can you speak for everyone else??!!!
Report brigust1 June 22, 2016 2:25 PM BST
The only reason REMAIN will win is because Cameron has done a deal with the unions over his 2015 Manifesto claims. That was the game changer. Don't forget

Who will be able to vote?
British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens over 18 who are resident in the UK, along with UK nationals living abroad who have been on the electoral register in the UK in the past 15 years. Members of the House of Lords and Commonwealth citizens in Gibraltar will also be eligible, unlike in a general election. Citizens from EU countries - apart from Ireland, Malta and Cyprus - will not get a vote. Not sure that makes up 6 million in London.
Report brigust1 June 22, 2016 2:33 PM BST
It is ridiculous to say REMAIN suits no-one. There is a list in today's paper of 1600 business leaders, headed by Richard Branson, who REMAIN will suit. Not that we didn't already know mind. Imagine if the low paid starting getting scarce and wages had to rise? They might have to put their wages up and to counter that they may want to put their prices up but that would effect inflation so they would be cutting off their noses. Now that would be worth the money to see.
Report paganin June 22, 2016 2:37 PM BST
A sentence I never thought I would say but Brigust spot on!!
Report dave1357 June 22, 2016 2:37 PM BST
If labour is too costly, wealth creating industry will simply move elsewhere.
Report brigust1 June 22, 2016 2:46 PM BST
Wealth creating? For who? There will be a time when companies will pay a fair days pay for a fair days work.

Most companies are small companies and cannot move abroad. Perhaps Tesco and Sainsbury's may go but shopping would be difficult. They may deliver.

The minimum wage is less than France, Luxemburg, Germany, Belgium, Holland to name but a few. Where would they go?
Report brigust1 June 22, 2016 2:49 PM BST
We will be able to judge how things are going if we REMAIN.

The NHS is 2.5 billion in deficit.

The Primary schools are short by 10,000 places

Housing needs 300,000 units built every year.

We know up to 300,000 more immagrants will come in this year. Will the services keep up? You guess.
Report brigust1 June 22, 2016 2:49 PM BST
*immigrants
Report acey deucy June 22, 2016 2:51 PM BST
Remain you mugs....We are all from the same planet whether we like it or not....You know Acey's right.Plain
Report breadnbutter June 22, 2016 2:58 PM BST
Would creating wealth elsewhere not be a better idea than bringing everyone here to work ?

long term that is the solution ,its not rocket science .

rather then bring everyone  here or to the EU would it not make simple sense to help them in their own countries ,give them the tools to create ,this goes for everyhwere ,the EU is a horrible monster that is after control of everyone ,this is what this disgusting referndum is all about ,CONTROL .

Rubber stamp the cult of the EU at your peril .

An out vote will uncover the masked  monster ,just like  an episode of scooby doo
Report Whippin Piccadilly June 22, 2016 3:03 PM BST
Check this chart out and if you still plan on voting to remain you must be very thick. Basically Westminster has the power of a parish council. Crazy

Report paganin June 22, 2016 3:04 PM BST
Ok I am very thick Whippin- I can live with that from a Gomez fan....
Report Whippin Piccadilly June 22, 2016 3:11 PM BST
Pag you complete snob (a Remain voters trait), let me guess you like Muse, Cold play & Florence & The Machine!
Report paganin June 22, 2016 3:16 PM BST
Reason I said it actually is because I know them quite well. Was at Leeds with Tom and a decent bunch. One thing I really hate about this referundum and its on both sides Whippin is that everyone thinks all voters are in it for the same reason. Comments like all remainers are very thick is to be honest plain nonsense. I am voting remain as I worried about the impact on me of a economic crash- the impact it could have to me and my family is something I dont want to risk.

It is pretty stupid to say all remains voters are really thick when some of the finest minds in the UK are actively saying we should remain. I know you are a bit excited but come on you sound thick yourself with such a statement.Have your opinion and use your vote how you want but silly insults dont put you in a credible light.
Report ladycarla June 22, 2016 3:18 PM BST
Billy's have layed a £100,000 and £60,000 bets on remain so must be a cert.
Report asparagus June 22, 2016 3:19 PM BST
Though i wouldn't phrase it quite the same as Johnny Mustang. He is basically right. Leaving makes no sense and is effectively economic suicide,  whilst I would much rather be on the progressive side, trying to improve Europe rather than be on the side of Farage and his Nazi Propaganda and Britain First fuelling hatred and division. Integrity, compassion, decency in a progressive world comes first.
Report loper June 22, 2016 3:20 PM BST
I'm surprised that Brigust1 hasn't posted the fact that a significant minority of Brexiteers believe that the Referendum outcome will be **** and that MI5 are behind it.
Report loper June 22, 2016 3:21 PM BST
************

WTF???
Report paganin June 22, 2016 3:21 PM BST
I quite like the debate and chat until some bright spark comes on with all remainers are thick and no one wants to remain. Like saying all leavers are racists. Basically rubbish.
Report loper June 22, 2016 3:22 PM BST
****.
Report loper June 22, 2016 3:23 PM BST
Why cant I post deggir backwards, FFS?!
Report Whippin Piccadilly June 22, 2016 3:27 PM BST
Yeah fair comment, Pag. We all want what't best for the UK (Remain & Out) and there was no need for me making derogatory remarks like that.
Report dave1357 June 22, 2016 3:28 PM BST
Whippin Piccadilly • June 22, 2016 3:03 PM BST
Check this chart out and if you still plan on voting to remain you must be very thick. Basically Westminster has the power of a parish council


   The EU Parliament can only vote on what it is given to vote on. It can't make laws.

Here are the laws Westminster has passed so far this year:

   
Housing and Planning Act 2016    2016 c. 22    UK Public General Acts
Armed Forces Act 2016    2016 c. 21    UK Public General Acts
Energy Act 2016    2016 c. 20    UK Public General Acts
Immigration Act 2016    2016 c. 19    UK Public General Acts
House of Commons Members' Fund Act 2016    2016 c. 18    UK Public General Acts
Criminal Cases Review Commission (Information) Act 2016    2016 c. 17    UK Public General Acts
Driving Instructors (Registration) Act 2016    2016 c. 16    UK Public General Acts
Trade Union Act 2016    2016 c. 15    UK Public General Acts
Bank of England and Financial Services Act 2016    2016 c. 14    UK Public General Acts
Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Act 2016    2016 c. 13    UK Public General Acts
Enterprise Act 2016    2016 c. 12    UK Public General Acts
Scotland Act 2016    2016 c. 11    UK Public General Acts
NHS (Charitable Trusts Etc) Act 2016    2016 c. 10    UK Public General Acts
Access to Medical Treatments (Innovation) Act 2016    2016 c. 9    UK Public General Acts
Riot Compensation Act 2016    2016 c. 8    UK Public General Acts
Welfare Reform and Work Act 2016    2016 c. 7    UK Public General Acts
Education and Adoption Act 2016    2016 c. 6    UK Public General Acts
Childcare Act 2016    2016 c. 5    UK Public General Acts
Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Act 2016    2016 c. 4    UK Public General Acts
Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Act 2016   
Psychoactive Substances Act 2016    2016 c. 2    UK Public General Acts
Cities and Local Government Devolution Act 2016    2016 c. 1    UK Public General Acts
Report paganin June 22, 2016 3:28 PM BST
No worries Whippin. Its all got a bit heated to be honest and I want it over. Either way we will all move on. Eventually.....
Report paganin June 22, 2016 3:30 PM BST
US Army ranger confirmed out on the irish derby. Scoped dirty this morning.
Report breadnbutter June 22, 2016 3:30 PM BST
Either way the ordinary man will be beaten about the head with a big stick ,at least if we vote out we can see you is doing the beating

its really one of those cheap card tricks where they they make you choose a card and then tell you what you have picked and expect the sheeple to clap like seals
Report dave1357 June 22, 2016 3:30 PM BST

Jun 22, 2016 -- 3:23PM, loper wrote:


Why cant I post deggir backwards, FFS?!


they lol banned r i g g e d because people on the poker forum were using it too much.

Report kpf June 22, 2016 3:31 PM BST
I am voting OUT

Because the unelected EU Commission has given itself powers to block elected Governments it does not like
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/05/24/eu-vows-use-new-powers-block-elected-far-right-populists-power/

Because we do not have enough Houses / School places / Hospital resources / now.

Because we never voted to join a European State just a Common Market

Because they want to create a European Army
( Please refer to George Orwell's 1984 )
Report brigust1 June 22, 2016 3:34 PM BST
That's right Bread but they are already here. But helping them in their own countries has always been my philosophy.

British taxpayers could lose as much as £50billion due to EU judges overruling the UK's tax laws.
HMRC has already been forced to pay back £7.87billion in the last decade after European Court of Justice cases ruled certain business tax rules in Britain illegal.
Documents from the independent Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) reveal that HMRC will be forced to pay back a further £7.3billion before 2020.
The rules deemed illegal by EU judges were drawn up by Treasury officials and implemented after being approved by MPs in the House of Commons.
Report brigust1 June 22, 2016 3:35 PM BST
Brexit campaigners said the money HMRC was forced to pay back to firms was enough to pay for 25 fully-staffed hospitals and two more Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers.
The bill could soar even higher, however, if the Treasury loses ongoing court cases at the European Court of Justice, with another £35.6billion at risk - nearly half the UK's annual deficit.
Report breadnbutter June 22, 2016 3:40 PM BST

Jun 22, 2016 -- 3:30PM, paganin wrote:


US Army ranger confirmed out on the irish derby. Scoped dirty this morning.


wrong forum muppet LaughLaughLaugh

Report asparagus June 22, 2016 3:40 PM BST
'Brexit campaigners said..'. the rest of the sentence is clearly irrelevant as every time they open their mouths another lie comes out. 'Brexit campaign and building hospitals'. Really!!
Report paganin June 22, 2016 3:41 PM BST
Like it bread!
Report Whippin Piccadilly June 22, 2016 3:41 PM BST
My deciding reason for voting out are weasels like Cameron & Osborne, these are men who wanted to cut the benefits of the disabled for FFS. Also the bankers, you the know ones who created a recession not long ago, all want to remain in the EU too. Basically all the wealthy/middle classes want to stay for completely selfish reasons and they are very much in favour of the present status quo.
Report Whippin Piccadilly June 22, 2016 3:43 PM BST
Bread! Laugh
Report dave1357 June 22, 2016 3:43 PM BST
bigrust when are the elections for UK judges held?  I can't ever recall voting for one, but might have missed the elections.
Report brigust1 June 22, 2016 3:43 PM BST
Loper when the Voting Register was overloaded and crashed for 40 minutes why was it extended, against the law, two more days?

And how many EU citizens have been sent voting cards? According to the Electoral Commission EU citizens have wrongly been sent voting cards because of a systems failure.

I ask you?
Report loper June 22, 2016 3:44 PM BST
Brexiteers can quote their own partial 'facts' as the truth, whilst Remainers quoting independent authorities' statements are accused of peddling lies.

You should know that Asparagus.
Report paganin June 22, 2016 3:44 PM BST
Problem is Whippin are Boris and Gove any better?? One thing is for certain come friday- The Tories are in a mess!
Report brigust1 June 22, 2016 3:45 PM BST
Give me an example Loper. I will try to help you decide. Wink
Report kpf June 22, 2016 3:49 PM BST
Those Independent Authorities were the ones clamouring for us to adopt the Euro

We didnt . thank God
Report asparagus June 22, 2016 3:49 PM BST
Whippin Piccadilly, as paganin says it seems an odd deciding reason when Johnson and Gove will be almost certainly leading us if we leave.

Loper, yes you're right, i should have learnt to ignore the Brexiteers and the lies by now.
Report TheBaron June 22, 2016 3:50 PM BST
Even if you want to remain you are better off voting OUT.

The reason being that even if the vote is OUT we don't have to leave  Rather we can use it as a massive bargaining chip to negotiate better terms to remain.
Report Whippin Piccadilly June 22, 2016 3:53 PM BST
I'd prefer Boris & Gove myself, at least they seem to believe in Britain and believe we can make it on our own. I think they would work harder on the British people's behalf than, Bill & Ben. You're right though, the Cons have been split right down the middle on the referendum and long held friendships will have come to an abrupt end because of it.
Report breadnbutter June 22, 2016 3:53 PM BST
of course thats the real way to approach it ,default out vote by everyone and sort from there.

How quick did the EU drop the good ridance ,we dont need you line ?  LaughLaughLaugh

its now ,if you try and leave your gunna pay Wink
Report mandarin June 22, 2016 3:54 PM BST
Remain Happy
Report loper June 22, 2016 3:55 PM BST
When the Euro was first floated it was worth 60p.

Its now worth roughly 80p.

Thats an increase in its vaue of over 30%.

So, if we had adopted the Euro we would be financing the NHS twice over and have Trident nuclear subs coming out of our ears.
Report paganin June 22, 2016 3:56 PM BST
Dont believe in Boris Whippin. All he wants is number 10. Gove slightly more sincere. I thought Ruth Davidson was excellent last night and a breathe of fresh air and thank god Osborne has been a bit more absent this week... If only leave could have done the same to Farage!
Report Whippin Piccadilly June 22, 2016 3:56 PM BST
The Baron has made a great point. If we vote remain all our bargaining chips would have been chucked into the pot and the EU can basically say to the UK "we've got you right where we want you"
Report breadnbutter June 22, 2016 3:57 PM BST
Nicey nice purring friendly EU cat will turn into the monster out of Alien ....bring it on Devil
Report paganin June 22, 2016 3:58 PM BST
If we voted out and then Tories got us back in there would be a revolution. Another civil war would start. Not like we need an excuse for a bit of fighting in this country.
Report asparagus June 22, 2016 3:59 PM BST
Whippin Piccadilly, Boris undoubtedly made a career move. Almost everybody knows that. He has nobody's interest at heart but his own. Gove admittedly believes in leaving though it's hard to find many independent economists that believe he is correct.  You are right about the Conservative party though they are sure to be voted in again next time even if they are at civil war.
Report zipper June 22, 2016 4:04 PM BST
136 million a day we send  them FAT CATS  EU ...  yet  we are laying of the police WHO PROTECT US.. nurses. WHO LOOK AFTER US WHEN WERE SICK..   cutting  the budget  to the NHS.. ITS A SHAMBLES   ..  VOTE OUT
Report paganin June 22, 2016 4:07 PM BST
Zipper where do you get the 136 million a day. The 350 million a week has been agreed as exagerrated so not sure where you have got your info!
Report brigust1 June 22, 2016 4:07 PM BST
A jolly good thing we didn't adopt the euro. It has proved to be exactly the job-destroying, recession-creating, undemocratic monster the doubters always warned it would be. This was not the received wisdom on the left at the time, when to suggest that the euro would be supercharged monetarism, Thatcherism with knobs on, was deemed unseemly. People who liked the euro were civilised, supported the arts, went to Tuscany or the Dordogne for their holidays. People who didn't like the euro drove white vans decorated with the flag of St George.

Today, it is hard to find even the most fervent euro enthusiasts in the Liberal Democrat party arguing for UK membership of the single currency. Disillusionment with what was once called "the Project" is almost total in the face of grinding austerity.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves June 22, 2016 4:07 PM BST
Very hard for any of us who have read Kafka's Das Schloss not to giggle at all these Remainers terrified of upsetting the army of bureaucrats up in their ramshackle "castle", who must surely know what's best for the townsfolk.

All these warnings of the terror which will unfold if this country looks beyond the EU and opens itself up to the rest of the world once more ... I feel like K. must have in Kafka's novel when he found himself in a town where nothing was possible without written permission.
Report xmoneyx June 22, 2016 4:17 PM BST
Britain Elects ‏@britainelects  · 3m3 minutes ago 

EU referendum poll:
Remain: 50% (+2)
Leave: 47% (-2)
(via SurveyMonkey, online)
Report loper June 22, 2016 4:19 PM BST
Its just as well Kafka died when he did, because he wouldn't have survived the Nazis.
Report impossible123 June 22, 2016 4:22 PM BST
Yes, REMAIN - just!
Report breadnbutter June 22, 2016 4:22 PM BST
wisdom and left does not compute ,all they are thinking about is the tories being in a mess come friday Cry

thats as far as it goes with them ,and the reason the people seen right through them ,but come friday they might get another bite at the cherry ,what a ship of fools they are
Report posy June 22, 2016 4:41 PM BST
If we vote out is our government strong enough to stop Sheila law being introduced by the Muslims and Hindus ?

What's Sheila's law ??
Report screaming from beneaththewaves June 22, 2016 4:52 PM BST
All these years reading and studying Kafka's writing as the finest and most influential the German language has produced since that of his great influence Nietzsche, and this is the first time I've ever come across someone's first reaction to the name being "Oh, he was Jewish."
Report glow -worm June 22, 2016 4:57 PM BST
You will find most of the working/lower class will vote remain.
In Labour cities with a large underclass and unemployed they will vote remain
YOU WILL FIND LABOUR CITIES WILL BE THE BIGGIEST OUTS IN ALL REGIONS AS GUESS WHAT THATS WHERE THE CONS DUMP ALL THE MIGRANTS
Report posy June 22, 2016 4:57 PM BST
I firmly believe we should have proportional representation in this country whereby everyone who has an IQ of under 85 should not be able to vote and those with an IQ of 115 and above should have their vote counted at least twice the value of those with an average score of between 85 and 114.
Unless such a policy is instigated this country runs the risk of having its Government shaped by the feckless,tattooed and obese cretins mentioned in Mustang's earlier post.
Report dave1357 June 22, 2016 5:05 PM BST

Jun 22, 2016 -- 4:41PM, posy wrote:


If we vote out is our government strong enough to stop Sheila law being introduced by the Muslims and Hindus ?What's Sheila's law ??


The monstrous regiment of women

Report dave1357 June 22, 2016 5:07 PM BST

Jun 22, 2016 -- 4:57PM, glow -worm wrote:


You will find most of the working/lower class will vote remain.In Labour cities with a large underclass and unemployed they will vote remain YOU WILL FIND LABOUR CITIES WILL BE THE BIGGIEST OUTS IN ALL REGIONS AS GUESS WHAT THATS WHERE THE CONS DUMP ALL THE MIGRANTS


The polls say exactly the opposite

Report glow -worm June 22, 2016 5:16 PM BST
WONDER WHERE YOU LIVE SOFT SOUTH FOR SURE
Report scholes121 June 22, 2016 5:38 PM BST
sheilas law...love itLaugh
Report sparrow June 22, 2016 5:56 PM BST
Isn't sheila law something to do with Australians?  Possibly their points system.Grin
Report Captain Christy June 22, 2016 6:05 PM BST
What a very shallow reading of das schloss that was
Report screaming from beneaththewaves June 22, 2016 6:17 PM BST
Dark and at times surreal, The Castle ([i]Das Schloss) is often understood to be about alienation, unresponsive bureaucracy, the frustration of trying to conduct business with non-transparent, seemingly arbitrary controlling systems, and the futile pursuit of an unobtainable goal.[/i]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Castle_(novel)

Looks a relevant one-line summary to me.
Report dave1357 June 22, 2016 6:21 PM BST

Jun 22, 2016 -- 5:16PM, glow -worm wrote:


WONDER WHERE YOU LIVE SOFT SOUTH FOR SURE


Couldn't be more wrong again

Report spyker June 22, 2016 7:02 PM BST
When the dust has settled (whatever the result) and the real reason for this ref is done and the new Conservative leader is chosen (by their MP's etc), will the fact the new P.M has been unelected, has no mandate from the people and therefore no 'sovereign' power make any difference to how people think he can govern and be PM?
Report Captain Christy June 22, 2016 7:07 PM BST
If they lose expect Farage to launch a coup d'etat
Report Oldgit1 June 22, 2016 7:12 PM BST
Doctors Out and In:

OUT:
The referendum has energised politics and highly polarised views are emerging.
The ‘remain’ camp insist that we should stay for the sake of the NHS.
This is nonsense. Fundamentally the problem is one of empathy. You see, the problem is mainly that we have an elite group of politicians who have become detached from the realities and hardships of the British people. Whatever your profession, you can be sure that the elite in favour of the EU have little understanding of your daily hardships. This is obviously apparent when we see how little politicians understand of the problems frontline NHS staff face.
Messrs Cameron and Hunt have repeatedly pushed for a seven-day NHS - this is a delusion because present services are already suffocated of funds and are struggling. 
The disastrous approach to the junior contract by Hunt showed a visceral contempt for the welfare of frontline doctors with the same misguided seven-day NHS justification. Dr Sarah Wollaston who condemned the junior doctor strike action as an ‘absolute disgrace’ has ‘defected’ to the remain campaign. Jeremy Hunt also supports the remain campaign. Junior doctors, GPs and consultants are all being asked to do more for less. Doctors are leaving the UK and many junior doctors do not want to become GPs. Data from NHS education Scotland shows 20% of places are unfilled. Many GP trainees want to emigrate because of the toxic working conditions of the NHS. 
The Government’s response to the problems of the NHS is to mercilessly pursue hardworking professionals with more regulation. Rethinking regulation, published by the Professional Standards Authority makes it clear that the UK’s current regulators such as the CQC are too expensive to fund, and are over-complicated. An internal review of the GMC found that 28 doctors committed suicide while under investigation by the regulator. The GMC is accountable to Parliament through the House of Commons health committee. 
We then move to the controversial subject of immigration. For too long this has been a ‘no go issue.’ We learn from Steve Hilton (former PM adviser) concerning immigration that Mr Cameron was told directly of the impossible nature of controlling immigration with present EU legislation. It is a sad reality but there is abuse of the NHS by non UK citizens. It is only fair they pay up front if they are not entitled to free care. The Government must stop anyone taking advantage of a system already under immense pressure but its approach once again has been to pressure frontline health staff into resolving an immigration issue that is the Government’s responsibility. Simon Stevens, NHS Chief Executive, warns it’s going to be ‘bloody tough’ for the NHS in the future due to lack of funding. The present lack of control over immigration will make this considerably worse. 
Doctors are dying, retiring in droves and emigrating. I cannot see any benefit the EU has provided that has helped me and any other frontline staff in dealing with the present crisis in the NHS. Every day it becomes apparent that those in support of the remain campaign are divorced from the realities of the NHS. Vote Brexit.
Dr Zishan Syed is a GP Partner in Kent


IN:
So is Britain trembling on the precipice of economic and political oblivion, or are we on the cusp of a brave new era in British politics, helmed by the likes of Boris Johnson and Michael Gove? Is Brexit about to be banished to the place where unfashionable portmanteaus go to die, or are we going to be unpicking the mess and hearing this godforsaken word for the rest of our miserable lives? We will find out on 23 June. 
But what of the nation’s poor, downtrodden GPs? Could Brexit make things even worse in the world of NHS primary care? It’s a scary thought given the profession’s current woes, but I fear a victory for the Leave campaign could spell disaster for general practice.
Doctors typically value evidence, something there has been precious little of in a referendum debate fuelled by partisan opinion. A primary focus on immigration and the economy was to be expected, but both campaigns have found ample time to kick around that ever-popular political football, the NHS. Frustratingly, the arguments have been about as coherent as an England football fan after a day’s drinking in the French sun.

The Vote Leave campaign’s website proudly boasts that ‘the £350 million we give to the EU every week could pay for a fully staffed NHS hospital’. This is an emotive but hugely over-simplistic statement, designed to mislead. While our contribution to the EU would fall with Brexit, not necessarily to zero, there is a strong likelihood our national income would fall too. 
I’m not an economist so don’t take my word for it; the Institute for Fiscal Studies believes ‘the overall effect of Brexit would be to damage the public finances’. Such luminaries as the managing director of the International Monetary Fund and the governor of the Bank of England have also voiced concerns. Goodbye fully staffed hospital, hello further austerity, with all the negative impacts on GP workload that entails. 
If Britain’s GDP declines, this will likely have a significant impact on public service spending. What does this mean for healthcare? The Economist Intelligence Unit believes Brexit could hit potential healthcare funding by up to £135 per head by 2020; to put that in perspective, the average GP practice only receives £136 per patient annually. So while the GP Forward View suggests we are set for a bigger slice of the funding pie, Brexit could leave us with even less to chew on. 
Still, perhaps we’ll save money if we don’t have to spend millions treating all those immigrants from the EU, right? Well, no actually. This is the healthcare myth that just won’t go away. It’s been debunked so many times, I’m not even sure Nigel Farage believes it anymore. It’s also important to recognise that 10% of doctors working in the NHS were trained in another EU country. They wouldn’t necessarily leave of course, but Brexit would undoubtedly complicate cross-border working at a time when many specialties, general practice included, are in the midst of recruitment crises which show no sign of ending anytime soon. 
And let’s not forget employment rights. The EU is far from perfect and clearly needs reform, but it has brought numerous positive benefits to the workplace. Some experts fear the European Working Time Directive, which has played a pivotal role in influencing junior doctor’s working hours, could fall under threat in the event of Brexit. Do any of us want to see a return to pre-1998 arrangements? Ok, any non-surgeons? I thought not. 
Experts in their respective fields have claimed that Brexit presents additional threats to research funding, public health initiatives, and even the pharmaceutical industry. Increasingly disparate voices have trumpeted opposing views, but it seems clear that the consensus in the medical and scientific community lies in favour of a Remain vote. The BMJ, Simon Stevens, Sarah Wollaston, and the Royal College of Physicians have joined legions of academics and the leaders of all major political parties (with the obvious exception of UKIP) in opposing Brexit. And as much as it pains me to admit it, for once I actually agree with Jeremy Hunt on a healthcare-related issue: Brexit could have catastrophic consequences for an NHS that is already teetering on the brink. 
Dr David Coleman is a GP in Conisbrough, South Yorkshire
Report Captain Christy June 22, 2016 7:14 PM BST
Re das schloss.. there you go, perhaps you need a few more years to work it out mind

It is well documented that Brod's original construction was based on religious themes and this was furthered by the Muirs in their translations. But it has not ended with the Critical Editions. Numerous interpretations have been made with a variety of theological angles.
Report screaming from beneaththewaves June 22, 2016 7:20 PM BST
If we were discussing theology, I'd discuss the religious symbolism of the over-arching power in Das Schloss. But we're not.

And the passages which keep coming back to me now are the ones where the townspeople convince themselves that the corrupt, inaccessible and incompetent officials up im Schlosse (the castle or the lock - who knows? means both in German) must surely know what is best for the town, even if they have no idea what that is and nothing with which to compare it.
Report Captain Christy June 22, 2016 7:25 PM BST
yeah ok, the novel still has fcukall to do with bureaucracy.
Report Captain Christy June 22, 2016 7:27 PM BST
Sorry fcukall to do with the EU and has zero relevance. You may as well compare the EU to Jsnet and John
Report screaming from beneaththewaves June 22, 2016 7:37 PM BST
The world of Kafka's stories is dominated by suffocating, thoughtless and unfeeling bureaucracy, from the machine which inscribes a prisoner's crime on his body in In der Strafkolonie down to the employer demanding to know why their employee isn't at work (he's turned into a giant species of vermin, but that's no excuse).

The whole plot of Das Schloss revolves around K.'s futile attempt to gain access to the town's bureaucracy. Anything beyond that is conjecture.
Report 23nights June 23, 2016 10:10 AM BST
.ive finally today decided to vote in.the referendum imo was called at the wrong time and was only probably called by david cameron to appease tory voters in the run up to the last election.however im very worried about the domino effect the uk voting out will cause in an already fragile european/global economy.of course immigration and the strain on our infrastructure ie nhs,schools,housing worries me greatly but i just feel at this moment the uk which has in no way recovered from the 2008 crash/banking crisis is robust enough to take another financial crisis.
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