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Geoff Banks and his support for standard each way terms

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Replies: 158
By:
tinkler
When: 10 Sep 13 11:52
Been to Haydock a few times this year on busy Saturdays and 3 G connection worked great.  Last Saturday managed to spot a horses price
that was matching BF price ,it lasted about 1 1/2 mins which surprised me. It was the only one spotted though despite having a very good view of
the back 2 lines of bookies and the rails bookies, all in all the on course bookies were offering their usual poor quality big margin  over round service.
By:
REGIT
When: 10 Sep 13 12:17
I think its time to find out if we have a place on the racecourse in the future.i personally think if bookmakers werent there ,punters wouldnt come.im fed up of negotiating from a weak position.it wont happen cos we will never agree but i would like to see a week advertised well in advance where no books turned up and lets see what happens.if punters didnt turn up we could then negotiate a new deal which suits both parties and if they kept coming then its official weve had it.
this each way deal sucks.how a body thats basically taken advantage of a government error to steal our pitches,charge us more,allow btfrd to put mobile joints all over OUR ring has the gaull to tell us how to bet(whether you agree with the new terms or not)beggars belief.if  25% of people who place a bet at non standard place terms cos they dont realise is about right i can assure you that 100% of people who bet chesterbet or ripon bet are uneducated.IF THE RACECOURSES ARE REALLY CONCERNED GO BACK TO 5 TIMES THE ENTRANCE SCRAP MARKETING AND ASK US TO BET STANDARD TATTS TERMS.sportsadvisor says we should negotiate but please give me an instance of the racecourses being fair with us.business has been very good this year and if your not having a good year after the weather weve had wait till we have a bad year.finally please come to the NBPA meeting on sunday.talking on here achieves nothing.
By:
factmachine
When: 10 Sep 13 12:47
YEP THE ONLY THING WEVE FOUND OUT ON HERE,IS THAT GEOFF LIKES BACON AND EGGS WITH A CUP OF TEA!
By:
factmachine
When: 10 Sep 13 12:49
OH AND HE WONT LAY ARBERSShocked
By:
factmachine
When: 10 Sep 13 12:53
TINKLER,THE NEXT TIME U GO TO HAYDOCK POP IN THE SPECSAVERS IN ST HELENS TOWN CENTRE,EVERY FAV BIGGER THAN THE MACHINE AT EVERY MEET I HAVE ATTENDED,FANTASTIC VALUE FOR THE PUNTERS,COME RACING(PREF WITH YOUR NEW GLASSES)
By:
adge
When: 10 Sep 13 13:10
in fairness , fact , he is talking about a busy Saturday which tinkler uses to confirm his blinkered view.
when he attends quiet midweek fixtures he and all others will be converted very swiftly
By:
1st time poster
When: 10 Sep 13 13:12
wasnot did you really type this,

i take exception to punters using our prices on the boards t lay off,thems would be the tissue prices you,ve earlier took off the online firms and then watch betfair to monitor any market moves, as on course bookies you are obviously the last to price up them prices may have many claims to ownership the only certainty is there not yours, LaughLaughLaugh
By:
wasnot
When: 10 Sep 13 13:54
If you read what I actually typed first time it was the ability of punters to lay horses while stood in the betting ring without buying a betting badge that I was objecting to.

Might I suggest you have a bit more water with it?
By:
IanP
When: 10 Sep 13 15:13
The free WiFi at Chester blocked all the bookmaker/exchange sites that I have tried.
By:
Racecourse Regular
When: 10 Sep 13 15:51
Good on Chester..... But who are the main sponsor at Ascot?
By:
Racecourse Regular
When: 10 Sep 13 15:52
Chester is Council owned don't forget..... not sure if that should make a difference
By:
unbiased
When: 10 Sep 13 16:12
wasnot,are you related to Ralph Topping,because you are using his thoughts?
   I realise that you oncourse guys are experiencing a lot of problems,many due to your poor lack of negotiating ,and all pulling together and singing from the same hymn sheet.No collective voice!
   However the nonsense you posted about a punter using their phone to lay a horse oncourse  should be buying a betting badge,is a reluctance to accept,just like Topping,that the exchanges are the stake holder,have the licence etc.
Betfair has been trading since 2000 and it is now 2013,yet after all these years you still believe that the use of it by punters to lay is wrong.What difference laying oncourse,at home,in a bar,or in the toilet?!
  Reminder,bookmakers are stakeholders,exchanges are stakeholders,punters are not.
   If many bookmakers are supposedly going bigger prices on favourites than the exchanges,what is the point of going racing with all the collective expenses,when you could be laying them in the comfort of your home?
By:
swift-tuttle
When: 10 Sep 13 16:17
If you read what I actually typed first time it was the ability of punters to lay horses while stood in the betting ring without buying a betting badge that I was objecting to.

I don't get it
What particular advantage would a punter gain (if he wanted to lay a horse) by standing in the ring?
By:
foxy
When: 10 Sep 13 16:20
the point is because we all love it.
By:
tinkler
When: 10 Sep 13 17:26
The "I'll never refuse a wager " is meaningless without knowing what price is prepared to be laid. Anyone can say it ,then offer a price a
lot shorter than BF and arb it back, the exact think bookies moan about and use as an excuse to close down winning accounts.
It doesnt sound like Mr banks is a skilled enough bookmaker to be able absorb  winning accounts.
By:
factmachine
When: 10 Sep 13 19:30
UNBIASED,"SUPPOSEDLY GOING BIGGER PRICES ON FAVOURITES THAN THE EXCHANGES"WELL ITS NOT JUST THE FAVS MY FRIEND,AS FOR LAYING EM SAT AT HOME YEP THATS FINE IF U WANT TO FIDDLE ABOUT WITH FIVERS,LAST YEAR AT WOLVS 30 MINS BEFORE A RACE £80 MOVED A HORSE ON HERE FROM 11/4 TO 11/8,BETFAIR FOR THE PAST FEW YEARS HAS STEADILY GOT WEAKER AND WEAKER,WITH MORNING MARKETS VIRTUALLY NON EXISTENT/PLACE MARKETS TOTALY NON EXISTENT,MOST OF THE TRADING DONE IN THE LAST 5 MINS,PUNTERS DO HAVE A CHOICE AND IF THEY WANT TO FIDDLE ABOUT ON HERE PAYING COMMISSION/PREMIUM CHARGE GOOD LUCK TO THEM,BUT U CANT BEAT A DAY AT THE RACES AND THAT INCLUDES VALUE WITH THE ONCOURSE BOOKS.
By:
factmachine
When: 10 Sep 13 19:31
WELL SOME OF EMHappy
By:
rcing
When: 10 Sep 13 19:35
LAST YEAR AT WOLVS 30 MINS BEFORE A RACE £80 MOVED A HORSE ON HERE FROM 11/4 TO 11/8

fact , what price was said horse on course or in the shops when it was 11/8 on here ?
By:
factmachine
When: 10 Sep 13 19:39
RCING,I THOUGHT EVERYONE KNEW THE SP IS TAKEN FROM 3 BOOKS WHO ARE DISPLAYING THE WORSE PRICE,SO PROBABLY 6/5 WHEN 6/4 OFFERED IN THE RING,COME RACINGHappy
By:
factmachine
When: 10 Sep 13 19:42
THE SP HAS LITTLE OR NO REFLECTION TO THE PRICE THAT U CAN OBTAIN IN THE RING!
By:
rcing
When: 10 Sep 13 19:43
so the sad part is that jimmy jones is sat at home and tries to manipulate a market for a poxy £80 , and 8000+ betting shops follow ?

or , jimmy jones just wants £80 on the horse before he goes out for the evening , so takes whatever money available and 8000+ shops follow ?

crazy
By:
factmachine
When: 10 Sep 13 19:52
THATS HOW EASY IT IS TO MANIPULATE THE PISS WEAK MARKETS ON THE EXCHANGES,IT ALSO WORKS THE OTHER WAY WERE THEY PUSH EM OUT FOR PEANUTS.
By:
johnnywilkinson
When: 10 Sep 13 20:41
aADGE WHAT ROO SAYS ABOUT ARC SECURITY STAFF IS BANG ON
By:
unbiased
When: 11 Sep 13 14:10
factmachine,that is clearly an over exaggeration.Meanwhile putting £100 on a rag,pre exchange during the week would also see the marker pens,and board wipers going crazy.Besides which 30 mins before off time isn't relevant.Watching the turnover on here for many races,still shows plenty of liquidity in the last 5 mins or so,when most business is transacted.
   Sure you have to defend the ring,which is understandable,but the exchanges are here to stay.Betfair established 10 years!!!
Isn't it the "magic sign" shortening them on Daq for the ring?
By:
Sportsadvisor
When: 12 Sep 13 10:27
Frog. I haven't refused a bet on course in any respect- except to other Bookmakers (ie I favour punters business first) at MY odds since I took over from my Father. That's over ten years. Not a single bet

Off track is different and you must respect I have been honest. Yes the exchanges are smaller- as are those who make a living trading between Bookmakers online and exchanges. The key is they are running a business off the back of my own. It's widely accepted the 'ONLINE MARKET' won't make money out of these players. It's true we could be 'filled in' to any amount at odds made up by some spotty trader - fresh out of play school. Could we compile our own? Well the simple answer is no. Most of British Horseracing is bet to very low margins and very low returns to connections. It's become common place to prepare horses for gambles in a manner that's so transparent it offends the sensibilities not only of Bookies, but fair minded punters too. ie Am I Blue. Unpunished, although it made every paper and Sky News that evening!

I do not want to run an off track business where i limit genuine players- be they WINNERS or LOSERS. To do this, I have to weed out the professional gamblers. Some of which will be reading this. It may be an irritant to them not to get on with me amongst others, but that's the difficulty those in business face. Should I respect their need to run their business off my back? I'll let you make up your mind on that.

As for opinions? Check my twitter timeline geoffbanksbet. We regularly buck the exchanges - and the bets we lay aren't tenners

Geoff Banks
By:
Sportsadvisor
When: 12 Sep 13 10:35
As for those sensible Bookmakers on here posting their concerns as to negotiations on racetracks? Want my Suggestion?

Don't permit the FRB to negotiate on your behalf. Their approach has been confrontational and naive. I have distanced myself from their approach and I've no wish for those individuals to act on my behalf.

I argued for two things in the pitch deal
1. Modified gold flag terms in every racetrack contract (inc win only and 16-21 at 1/5th) This would have defused necessity to use E regs to mandate them
2. Racetracks who competed with us on 'Betting' to have their multipliers reduced to reflect increased competition

Both were rejected by the FRB. Both have proved to be worthwhile. The FRB tend to negotiate on our behalf without consultation with members and i disagree with this. I have made this clear to RG
By:
tinkler
When: 12 Sep 13 10:55
You don't expect serious horse players to be allowed to run a business off
your back , but are happy to run a business of the back of compulsive
gamblers and those uneducated about betting matters.
Cannt see how it's anything to brag about you never refusing a bet at
MY odds if your odds are poor, a meaningless statement.
By:
Racecourse Regular
When: 12 Sep 13 10:57
Geoff- Commercially Aware , Forward Thinking, and Protectionist of the Trade of the majority of whom you are supposed to represent........... if you cannot answer all three to all of these you have no place on any negotiating/representative committee  end of............

You are dealing with organisations (i.e racecourses) whom are geared up to make a profit.... and have come on leaps and bounds in a relatively short space of time in the quest to do so........... those sitting on the other side doing the negotiating on behalf of the majority need to be equal to the task
By:
Sportsadvisor
When: 12 Sep 13 11:10
Regular. I think you need to read the industry news a little more

Tinkler - interesting spin you put upon matters 'compulsive and uneducated. Nice try
By:
Sportsadvisor
When: 12 Sep 13 11:19
Racecourse regular
'Others thought not...... but since the racecourses struck the best deal on earth known to man with Racecourse books recently..... they can now hook up with a betting partner on raceday so as soon as you log-in to WIFI the site of that betting partner comes straight up and away you go............'
Your quote seems to suggest you believe the deal to be one sided. Yet two minutes ago you seem to be suggesting our negotiators were 'up to the task'
or are you suggesting I'm not up to the task?
I beg to differ
By:
Racecourse Regular
When: 12 Sep 13 11:38
Sports - Of course the deal is one sided....... you had people negotiating to protect their own interests/investments rather than looking at the trade i.e racecourse bookmakers as a whole......... without looking at the bigger picture i.e what would happen down the line........ Ascot will be totally non workable as a Racecourse Bookmaker within 5 years is my prediction with the introduction of WiFI....... it is already very hard for a back line pick there as it is......

I had already suggested tongue in cheek in a previous post that the negotiators are already visiting racecourses and asking for a 50% reduction in the badge fee as a result of the Wi-Fi Network......... next move will to be have a preferred betting partner advertising on the front of their home page......... you will just log in place a bet from the bar or anywhere on the track.....

Excatly the opposite, your ideas are commercial and forward thinking exactly what is needed in the current day environment
By:
Sportsadvisor
When: 12 Sep 13 14:18
indeed. I think the deals done with tracks smacked of the approach. They could have been a lot better had we been more engaging and open. The view that tracks are bent on our destruction-replacement is a narrow one - I do not concur with
If asked to represent leading bookmakers- I will, and it won't be based on fear of tracks. If we understand their problems and costs- they should understand ours in a frank and friendly negotiation.
ie concert nights- although populous, don't favour bookies and 7 x is unrealistic. How do we get tracks to understand? Share our returns
By:
rcing
When: 12 Sep 13 14:22
geoff , would it not be wise to have professional gamblers on your book and follow them in , or is that a losing move in the long run ?
By:
okeydokey
When: 12 Sep 13 14:34
Geoff, I bought one of your suits in Debenhams the other day. Very good value and workmanship.
By:
DUNERUNNER
When: 12 Sep 13 14:35
rcing

- as I am sure certain off course bookies have "Gold Accounts" for certain owners and trainers, where they can have as much on at the price as they want and as a result the bookies then know the strength in order to follow them in.
By:
rcing
When: 12 Sep 13 14:40
dunerunner ,  i have no doubt that goes on , i was wondering why geoff says "  To do this, I have to weed out the professional gamblers " , and was wondering why ( if he doesn't already ) he uses there info/knowledge to his advantage .
By:
Sportsadvisor
When: 14 Sep 13 14:14
ha, can't find anyone who wants to lay me a bet..
By:
frog2
When: 14 Sep 13 21:51
Geoff,

thanks for your reply. I agree that horseracing is a risky place to offer prices to the professionals.

As a gambler I can price up all the runners in every race and pick off the value. I wouldnt dream of offering my prices for others to pick off in theory.

But with a decent overround and low fixed limits for everyone on market openning surely the 'professionals' would help you find fair value in the market sooner and thus you would be able to take bigger bets later on. You would be able to smoke out the mistakes earlier.
By:
Sportsadvisor
When: 15 Sep 13 10:38
it's not practical in an industry where there are but a handful of serious layers left. the majors are not interested, leaves few alternatives. your idea ok in theory but not in practice
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