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elisjohn
24 Aug 13 22:58
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Date Joined: 15 Jun 03
| Topic/replies: 17,201 | Blogger: elisjohn's blog
yes gets the odd group 1 winner, but so does joseph Obrien, , whats this over the top idolism of moore, another beckham overated by miles  by media etc
Pause Switch to Standard View ryan moore,, most overated jockey...
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Report ima_mazed66 August 24, 2013 11:11 PM BST
Assuming this is not a fishing thread and it's so hard to tell considering some of the ridiculous comments I've seen made on here, when you say Moore gets the "odd" Gr1 winner presumably with 33 under his belt despite still being in his 20s, do you mean odd as in it's an odd number?

You also say "but so does Joseph" as if that in some way qualifies your previous statement when in actual fact he has also ridden 19 Gr1 winners himself and how old is he again?
Report silvergreaser August 24, 2013 11:15 PM BST
Imo every so called top jockey is overrated and the horses they're riding underrated.
Report elisjohn August 24, 2013 11:27 PM BST
no ima, that's surprised me with 33 group 1 winners, but I feel still something missing, maybe its the stable underperforming last couple of years, just he doesn't come over as a champion imo
Report ima_mazed66 August 24, 2013 11:42 PM BST
He's like them all elisjohn and is good at times and bad at other times but the higher profile ones seem to get scrutinised a lot more whatever they do, whereas the low profile ones go largely unnoticed under the radar whenever something applies to them.

Take any issue you like such as missing the kick at the start and if it's by a big name jockey it gets flagged up but unless they are on a fancied runner, whenever a low profile jockey misses it then it barely gets a mention.
Report acey deucy August 24, 2013 11:48 PM BST
One Of The Greats yfdc.
Report portmanpark August 24, 2013 11:56 PM BST
agree with acey.......best at this moment in time..........worst jockey I think is spencer
Report nasser August 24, 2013 11:58 PM BST
Cant believe I'm reading this pathetic thread. He's the best jockey riding today. Reminds me of fallon 10 years ago or so. Wins on horses that you shouldn't take a second glance at in a race.
Report Dr Gonzo August 25, 2013 12:04 AM BST
Pretty ridiculous thread tbh
Report Wesdag August 25, 2013 1:01 AM BST
Too much sherry op
Report Ramruma August 25, 2013 7:29 AM BST
Wins on horses that you shouldn't take a second glance at in a race.

No he doesn't. But what he also does not do is lose races he should have won. Ryan Moore is the most "professional" jockey around in that he rarely makes mistakes.

But it is hard to think of races won by Moore's brilliance, that the horse should have lost.

In fact, we can test this by looking at the prices of his winners. This year, Moore has won on only four horses with SPs of 10/1 or more. In 2011, it was none.
Report dod August 25, 2013 7:43 AM BST
OP i will tell you this if RM is in a close finish with any other jockey riding at the moment i know where i would want my money.
Report pauli August 25, 2013 7:49 AM BST
This is the most ridiculous thread I've ever come across on here and that's saying something.  Most overrated jockey ever?  WALOFS.
Report mange August 25, 2013 8:38 AM BST
Its so obvious that If the poster had a horse................... he wouldent want him on it
Report bustino August 25, 2013 8:52 AM BST
ryan moore is best around at moment if i had horse gd enough for belmont theres no other jockey id prefer to have on

ryan seems throughly decent lad but isnt into the media doing flying dismounts etc as todays x factor society demands

ryan is more in the lester /kinane mould and like those boys would tell this poster what a plonker he is
Report silvergreaser August 25, 2013 8:54 AM BST
Certainly a gross exaggeration on the OP's behalf, but the so called top jockeys are often praised to the hilt by punter and media alike, when in fact he might just have been on the best horse in the race anyway, if the likes of a journeyman say Graham Gibbons gives a horse a similar ride he very seldom gets any praise at all.

imo all jockeys are way overrated and the animal underneath them way underrated, yes on the odd occasion a jockey might make a difference, and anyway if a top jockey s booked for a horse its usually factored into the price a horse with similar form claims but ridden by a so called lesser jockey will often represent much better value, so you've gathered I never factor in who's riding what when I have a bet, the form book will do for me thank you.
Report mange August 25, 2013 8:57 AM BST
He scored a goal in a jocs match & I dissalowed it..................looked at me like he usted to look at Thommo Laugh
  Nice lad from a family of grafters.................
Report mange August 25, 2013 9:00 AM BST
At the end of the day owners/trainers want someone up that can come back & tell em something that in the long run turns out to be correct
Report moondan August 25, 2013 9:10 AM BST
The only comparison you could make with say Lester is he does not say too much but as a jockey certainly not in lesters league, but who was?

Overrated ?  not really, certainly not on the same scale as Frankie who was lucky enough to work for a stable that would make brer rabbit look good.
Unlike Frankie who was not the strongest in a finish, it is difficult to find fault with Ryan who rarely makes a mistake but as someone else has said few horses win because of Ryan.

Great Jockey ? yes,  but debatable as to where he stands against several Irish Jockeys and American be it south or north  but to put him up there at the same table as Lester you would have to know little about Jockeyship and very tongue in cheek.
Report MJK August 25, 2013 9:10 AM BST
I'd still have Murtagh ahead of him of the current crop riding, but Moore's a good jockey whatever way you look at it, certainly the best riding in the Uk although it's not his fault he's riding against absolute rubbish in the main every day. My only criticism of him would be that sometimes he doesn't change his tactics during a race and keeps to the plan', even though it can cost him in the end.
Report bustino August 25, 2013 9:58 AM BST
lol didnt say ryan was as talented as lester but said like lester he lets his riding do the talking and isnt into the monkey **** modern media demands of modern sportspeople

in reality spencer is probable a MORE talented jockey than moore but in reality moore makes less **** ups than spencer......same as carberry is more talented than mc coy but the records will say who the more sucessfull is
Report oufies pal August 25, 2013 10:18 AM BST
four words say it all for me.Mount Athos/Melbourne Cup.
Report DCI Barnaby August 25, 2013 10:51 AM BST
At getting one to re kindle a effort I havent seen any better than moore recently, but as for judgement of pace there are no jockeys that I can make a suggestion riding in the UK now, so he is ok but not got full riding package imo, unlike some of the overseas jocks who can ride off the bridle and judge the pace of a race.
Report Masterminded August 25, 2013 11:01 AM BST
Mount Athos has done a lot since Moore not been on board. I think looking back at the last few seasons he has suffered with numerous injuries and been riding for a stable that has suffered from a lack of quality. Considering these factors he's done remarkable to stay where he is which is well on top of the current bunch of jockeys. How people can say he doesn't win on horses that shouldn't win I don't know he does it all the time. This has to be the dumbest thread I've read on here and by Betfair forum standards that takes some doing. Congrats to OP
Report bolgersgreat August 25, 2013 11:30 AM BST
I think Moore is one of the worst stable jockeys out there. He should study kinane and realise its better in the long run to win by a nose than 10 lengths. I cant understand why stoute doesnt get rid of him. The only reason i can think why AOB uses him is because he does exactly what he tells him to do in a race. He doesnt seem to be able to think on his feet, he just sits out the back when he thinks he has a chance and goes up the front when he thinks he has no chance. You rarely see him win a race you feel he shouldnt have won. Have people who claim he is great actually watched him or are they just saying it because everyone else is. I just dont see what all the hype is about.
Report moondan August 25, 2013 12:01 PM BST
I know its difficult to judge different eras but certainly Lester woulds have survived being freelance today, yes,  he started the whole thing off when he left Murless and some great stable jockeys in different countries slept less soundly as owners loyalties were ditched and trainers did as they were told and Lester was hired for the big race.
I know nobody is suggesting Ryan is in that class but my point is there are many jockeys today who sleep quite soundly even if Ryan is available.
To suggest Ryan at present has that greatness or habitually wins on horses that nobody else could win on is a leap of faith of Willougby proportions that like most of what he utters is quite ridiculous.
Report salmon spray August 25, 2013 12:11 PM BST
I agree Moore is no Piggott but people were still somewhat divided about Lester when he was Moore's age. Despite his precocity Piggott was in his 30s when he REALLY made his name as probably the best British jockey of all time.
However when you consider that other Champion jockeys in recent years include Hanagan,Spencer and even Sanders I think it's safe to say the competition to him is not great and,with the possible exception of Hughes,he is the best jockey based in the UK at the moment.
Report moondan August 25, 2013 12:27 PM BST
Salmon spray,

I think Piggott had to overcome the establishment which were slightly autistic in as much as things had to be done in the way they always were and change was a bad way to go.
I do agree with your point about jockeys of today perhaps being less talented.
I remember the likes of Ron Hutchinson almost specialising in sprints and Scobie Breasley (the headwaiter) leaving his effort until the last 50 yards but doing a far better job than Spencer and the Hanigans of the weighing room being 10 a penny.
but perhaps I am just getting old.
Report timidpeopleruleok August 25, 2013 1:03 PM BST
Reading the replies the whole debate is being treated by a few as rather esoteric in the sense that some are being dogmatic that they have the "knowledge" on this while there is no way that it is any more than an issue of opinion, it appears to me that the OP shot of at the hip like a loose cannon with an opinion, no more than that.
BUT my reason for replying is to moondan, people of my age will remember that Scobie left it late and this was the case in particular in the 1964 Derby, however, it was Harry Wragg who was known as the Head Waiter.
Report moondan August 25, 2013 1:14 PM BST
timidpeopleruleok,

I would not argue too long or hard but that surprises me that Harry had that title and not scobie.
I must be getting more senile than I thoughtGrin
Report timidpeopleruleok August 25, 2013 1:18 PM BST
moondan,
All it means unfortunately is that I have a few years on you Cry
Report salmon spray August 25, 2013 1:47 PM BST
Wragg was the original head-waiter ( before my time but he came from my home town of Sheffield originally ).I think I remember a few gravy-slurpers trying to transfer the title to Breasley,who certainly used similar tactics much of the time,but it never really stuck.
Obviously it's a matter of opinion but I doubt whether anyone would argue Havlin,say,is as good as Piggott was,just as you would have to be a bit odd to suggest Barbara Cartland was a greater novelist than Dickens.
Report ima_mazed66 August 25, 2013 2:18 PM BST
oufies pal 
four words say it all for me.Mount Athos/Melbourne Cup.


Maybe you should have considered a few more than 4 words and took into account the horse had never won at 2 miles before and so was ridden held up to get the trip, that there were 24 runners in the race, that it's a turning course usually meaning having to come wide to challenge if ridden off the pace, that it is a highly competitive race, tht no UK trainer horse has ever won the race before and so on.
Report differentdrum August 25, 2013 2:23 PM BST
I am guessing that both Moore and Spencer both have a much higher win ratio from the front than behind but they both continually amuse themselves by riding a huge majority from behind. That doesn't make too much sense to me. Moore dropped several in at York and couldn't get them to settle so he eventually had ground to make up on a horse who had been over-racing - a recipe for disaster.

I am assuming that as he has ridden so few long-priced winners his profit/loss in handicaps must make pretty horrendous reading. Rides two at Goodwood today, Circus Turn and Astonishing. Interesting to see how they go but given the money elsewhere no doubt the bookmakers will be raising a glass to him if he boots the first one home.
Report oufies pal August 25, 2013 2:44 PM BST
ima mazed,the horse finished with a load of running left in him. He completely misjudged the pace and his positioning in the race .Far from his finest hour. Although I have to admit  his winning ride on the Aiden O Brien youngster(George Vancouver) at the Breeders Cup was pure class. A poor judge of pace but a really strong jock in a finish imo .
Report tips August 25, 2013 3:23 PM BST
rode them to sleep there
Report stevieval August 25, 2013 3:27 PM BST
OP seething after that!
Report Masterminded August 25, 2013 3:27 PM BST
Can't judge pace, doesn't win on horses that shouldn't win anyway, doesn't win on decent priced horses... Muppets
Report tips August 25, 2013 3:28 PM BST
he was a different between winning and losing there
Report differentdrum August 25, 2013 3:29 PM BST
I refer you to the above m'lud. Champagne corks popping throughout bookmakers offices.

De Sousa like a fish out of water on a ride that needed a little finesse - should have left Buick on.
Report ima_mazed66 August 25, 2013 3:35 PM BST
I'm not denying oufies pal that in the MC he came from off the pace and was finishing fast and had he done that in a bog standard 5 or 6 runner race at a distance the horse had winning from at then that's one thing, but you seem to have ignored just about everything in my previous post as to why the horse was ridden as it was, as in:

the horse had never won at 2 miles before and so was ridden held up to get the trip, that there were 24 runners in the race, that it's a turning course usually meaning having to come wide to challenge if ridden off the pace, that it is a highly competitive race, that no UK trainer horse has ever won the race before and so on.
Report silvergreaser August 26, 2013 1:39 AM BST
The best horseman ever was Pat Eddery could ride super short drive for all he's worth keep his horse running straight as a gun barrel even Pigott thought Pat was exceptional as a true horseman.

Fallon could beat up a horse with his exaggerated whip action but if he rode a finish like Pat Eddery Fallon would fall out the side door hence why he rides so long, Fallon is a jockey never a horseman.
Report ima_mazed66 August 26, 2013 4:50 AM BST
You surely have to be on a wind up with some of this stuff silvergreaser and if you said Piggott rode super short you might have a point but that's the first I've ever heard it said about Eddery and he rode no longer or shorter than Fallon or the vast majority of other jockeys.

http://www.jockeysite.com/stories/dancingbrave2.jpg

http://horseracingtavern.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/hurricane-run.jpg
Report EVILROYSLADE August 26, 2013 9:02 AM BST
Murtagh anytime.Sure, Ryan rides plenty winners, but he **** it up as much as anyone else. I won't be joining his band of admirers. Strong in a finish and I suppose that counts. Murtagh is a horseman who is also as strong!
Report silvergreaser August 26, 2013 9:23 AM BST
Well I still think Fallon would fall out the side door if he rode an Eddery type finish, Fallon is very robotic and upright in the saddle.
Report sean rua August 26, 2013 9:46 AM BST
My own favourite jockeys are J Murtagh and M Kinnane.
R Moore is a great jockey too, but, just as with the other two, when things aren't right with stable or horse, form will be affected, and that's what may have prompted the OP to start this thread, imo.
Report EVILROYSLADE August 26, 2013 11:09 AM BST
Well said Sean. Mick Kinane was ultra cool. Never seemed to get anxious! A great great horseman.
Report EVILROYSLADE August 26, 2013 11:12 AM BST
Must just say a word for dear old Willie Carson. If he was pushing away you still had a chance. If he was sat still you were collecting!
Report FELTFAIR August 26, 2013 11:24 AM BST
Pat Eddery,El Gran Senor, Epsom Derby. Never forgiven him.
Report elisjohn August 26, 2013 11:51 AM BST
I posted this as the admirers of moore are way over the top, no way did I say he wasn't a good jockey, I said he is massively overated , here I should have said as a world class jockey. of course hes the best in uk at the moment coz the standard is extremely poor.now I will list you better jockeys in my era better than moore. Piggott, carson, eddery, mercer, kinane, fallon, murtagh, cauthen,   and even greville, there are  more not included. I know ill be ridiculed for saying greville, but he was a top class jockey  ,   forget that one ill judged ride.
Report elisjohn August 26, 2013 11:51 AM BST
bloody hell, forgot about the choir boy
Report asparagus August 26, 2013 12:10 PM BST
Nostalgia has a way of blinding people whether it's regarding the calibre of Jockeys or anything else. As with nearly any other sport the professionals involved as a whole get better not worse. People have access to a lot more races now than they did 20+ years ago and therefore they'll see more mistakes. Ryan Moore is an excellent jockey, imo the best around, but he will make mistakes just like anybody else. That doesn't make him overrrated.
Report Marcce August 26, 2013 12:46 PM BST
I posted this as the admirers of moore are way over the top, no way did I say he wasn't a good jockey, I said he is massively overated , here I should have said as a world class jockey. of course hes the best in uk at the moment coz the standard is extremely poor.now I will list you better jockeys in my era better than moore. Piggott, carson, eddery, mercer, kinane, fallon, murtagh, cauthen,   and even greville, there are  more not included. I know ill be ridiculed for saying greville, but he was a top class jockey  ,   forget that one ill judged ride.

The one thing to bear in mind here is that in the modern day you can watch every single one of Ryan's rides, something you weren't able to do with the majority of those jockeys on your list. It was hard to tell what kind of ride someone gave a horse from an extel commentary.

I suspect a lot of the jockeys of yesteryear wouldn't come away with their reputations even further enhanced had you been able to watch every race they rode in.
Report asparagus August 26, 2013 1:48 PM BST
Marcce, spot on.
Report moondan August 26, 2013 3:23 PM BST
Not sure sportsman have got much better in the past 50 years or so, much more likely that science has played a major part in the equipment used,  also conditions have improved out of all recognition.
Apart from Fallon, most jockeys appear like nancy boys compared to the tougher breed of the last century.
From snooker to football the weight of ball has changed drastically, From pitches to running tracks, to table cloths on the snooker table has helped speed and if yesterdays  player had all these benefits they would have made good use of them.
Top class sport has always been played in the head, yesterdays stars were much stronger individuals bred in a tougher world.
Report asparagus August 26, 2013 3:46 PM BST
Nonsense. Athletes run faster, footballers are much better conditioned, jockeys are fitter and stronger.
Report pauli August 26, 2013 3:46 PM BST
Another excellent ride from the "overrated" Ryan Moore.
Report stevieval August 26, 2013 3:49 PM BST
Help, I need some information.
Can anyone tell me if Ryan Moore 'Rode them to sleep' there?

I really need to know.

Many thanks
Report tips August 26, 2013 3:52 PM BST
how does he get rides at all another awful effort Laugh
Report Ramruma August 26, 2013 4:05 PM BST
Nonsense. Athletes run faster, footballers are much better conditioned, jockeys are fitter and stronger.

Equipment, training and nutrition are a lot better now for all sports, except racing imo which is still stuck in the last century. Look at the number of threads proclaiming Jonny Murtagh and then name another sport where a man in his mid-40s could be acclaimed as the leading player.
Report stevieval August 26, 2013 4:08 PM BST
name another sport where a man in his mid-40s could be acclaimed as the leading player.

Golf Laugh
Report ima_mazed66 August 26, 2013 4:11 PM BST
I'm not really sure how Fallon rides in comparison to Eddery matters if you say Fallon would fall off by doing so silvergreaser as even if it was the case, it's hardly an issue if all he has to do is not ride like Eddery, panic over.

I'm guessing here Ryan Moore was under orders to make the running so did so and showed he was more than capable of it but given the choice himself of how to ride them I'm sure that wouldn't be his first option. If the criteria to be a world class jockey is that you can hold your own against those of any country then even if those here are supposed to be poor (and they aren't by the way) Moore has has plenty of success overseas, including in America, France, Hong Kong, Ireland, Japan, and the UAE and has only just come back last weekend from winning the Beverley D Stakes and American St Leger.

Oh and although I gave him stick at the time, I've watched Eddery on El Gran Senor a few times recently and although he did hold on to him for quite a while, when he did ask him to go there was plenty of time to quicken and pull clear but there was just no response and he went about half a length up and no more before seeming to be out-battled by Secreto.
Report 11kv August 26, 2013 4:54 PM BST
Just what is wrong with this lad. head is not on the job imo.....
Report 11kv August 26, 2013 5:29 PM BST
Crazy
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