Jockey Club Racecourse ~ revised each way terms ~ ALL CHANGE

ban exchange hedgeing, did it folkestone all agreeing few years back, if betting to better % is the aim, not sure EW terms are the answer, do Ireland hedge into exchanges their margins always better than ours?

is betting to better % the aim or pleasing sp returns for betting shops?

not sure most on-course punters care that much about EW terms, and the few that like to moan mostly arbers

BARRY - THE BANNING OF EXCHANGE HEDGING WOULD ENABLE THE ON COURSE MARKET TO BECOME JUST THAT....THE ON COURSE MARKET....NOT THE EXCHANGE MARKET MINUS A TICK.

MORE ON COURSE PUNTERS THAN YOU APPRECIATE CARE ABOUT PLACE TERMS...ON RACES WHERE THE PLACE TERMS ARE 1/4 1234 THE PLACE TAKE IS OFTEN AROUND 80% OF THE WIN TAKE....ON 1/4 1.2 RACES THE PLACE TAKE IS USUALLY WELL BELOW 20% OF THE WIN TAKE.....DON'T TAKE THE PUNTERS FOR MUGS BARRY.....IT'S A MAJOR MISTAKE !!!!!

dont take the punters for mugs, I'll bet  110% a 1/6th  you bet next door 120% 1/4   no contest

ban exchange hedgeing



it all goes quiet

MUG,ANY CHANCE OF U PUTTING YOURSELF UP FOR ELECTION,THE ONLY THING I DONT AGREE WITH U IS THE GLOBAL WARMING ISSUE WHICH WILL NEVER BE ON THE AGENDA OF THE NBPA

WHAT ABOUT THE FIRMS GOING 1/5 1.2...OR THE FIRMS WHO BET  1/6 1234....WITH A SMALL SIGN OF COURSE TO 120%....WHEN I'M BETTING 1/4 1234 TO 128 %.... JUST HALF A PER CENT PER RUNNER MORE THAN ME..... 75/20..15/4...13/1..17/1 ?

FACT - WITH MY VIEWS.... JOHN PAUL GETTY HAD MORE CHANCE OF BEING ELECTED LEADER OF THE GREEN PARTY THAN I HAVE OF BECOMING CHAIRMAN OF ANY ASSOCIATION.

THETRUTHURTS MY FRIEND,BUT AS U HAVE SO ELOQUENTLY ILLUSTRATED AS LONG AS THE IM ALLRIGHT JACK BRIGADE WHO RUN/HEAD MOST ORGANISATIONS ARE RUNNING THE SHOW THE UNSUSTAINABLE STATUS QUO WILL CARRY ON AND IT WILL CONTINUE TO BE THE DYING GAME IT HAS BECOME.

THANKS FOR THAT FACT - THE GOOD OLD DAYS OF THE BETTING RING REALLY WERE THE GOOD OLD DAYS.....COLOUR....VIBRANCY....RESPECT FOR OTHERS....ALL MOSTLY GONE NOW....AND ALL SELF INFLICTED.....GREAT SHAME.

Self inflicted is precisely my point. If we work together more, stop moaning about out individual lot - it is possible to bring about change. Too many bookies hell bent on blaming everyone but themselves

Permit me to bore you with brief tale from Newbury, where i bet next to a very nice gent- he's a modern day trader- put majority back as is his wont

said to me at the end of trading how little he had made out of a muggy crowd bolstered by concert

conveniently forgetting he is
1. exchange odds
2. restrictive each way
3. Never offered any other bookie a single hedge all day

Sums up the blinkered approach I hear from too many these days eh?

OK SPORT,SO HOW WOULD THIS "WORKING TOGETHER MORE" MANIFEST ITSELF,DEMOCRATIC VOTING ON ALL MAJOR ISSUES,ONE BOOKIE ONE VOTE,FAIR AND TRANSPARENT NEGOTIATIONS WITH RACECOURSES,ONLY AGREED IF THE MAJORITY ACCEPT,GOOD LUCK U WOULD HAVE MY VOTE!

Fact- Sounds good ....... hasn't it always worked this way.....   why-ever not

Just had a look at the Newbury list,this would be rails pick 10 no doubt,a very early exchange pioneer,anybody remember the meeting at York racecourse where plenty of books attended in a debate on whether we used exchanges?
Will Rosoff gave a very reasoned argument for us not to use them,this guy was on the front row pleading the case for using them so that all the fiddlers could stick their chest out,2 minutes later he was out of the game as he discovered fast pics was the future (good luck to him),now the edge has gone there he's back.

RR NO IT HASNT I WOULD TELL U MORE BUT THINGS ARE AT CRUCIAL STAGE,SEE JOHN BATTEN ONCOURSE IM SURE HE WILL TELL U MORE

  sounds like another stitch up in progress

WELL WELL WELL RIBERO,HE NEARLY HAD MY VOTE,AND A CUP OF TEA

AGM's are all well and good giving the members a yearly opportunity to air their views and concerns regarding the status quo but at the end of the day are they nothing more than fulfilling a constitutional necessity and tantamount to window dressing? If the Chairman is worth his salt and fair minded he should without exception ask for a vote from the floor in favour or against the motion and the Association MUST then take the matter forward. Chairmen take note !!! Pursuit of such democratic processes would be a major step towards the establishment of a much needed improved working framework.

Ok - would somewhere out there please educate me ? How does the linkage / reporting structure / hierarchy / call it what you will work between the likes of the various area associations and the FRB, ARB and ARB - apologies to any body I have omitted ? What is the reporting structure ? If one Association has many more members than another and has voted for a certain action that should surely count for more than an opposite view expressed by very few members of a different Association with a far lesser membership. Until a structure is in place that binds those elected to negotiate and represent to express the views of the masses then the prospects remain questionable and unsatisfactory. Is the time near for the consolidation of the area associations in order that the premise of 'divide and rule' by others  will have far less chance than it does now ?

Ribero - rails newbury pick 10 would never consider voting pro exchanges in any shape or form on track. I believe in sustainable margin
Price ladder- 'modified' ie certain spurious prices removed
any halves over 11/2
9/1, 11/1, 22/1 28/1 and any silly bit in between ie 13/1
also removed? 10/3 and 6/5
consider the effect on your book. It's a small change- but very transparent

geoff banks

punter gets phone out 10/3 on internet dosent bet in ring.

Many apologies SA, I obviously meant pick 11,i appreciate you wouldn't,i better get to the opticians!

OBVIOUSLY AN ILLUMINATI PLOT TO DISCREDIT GEOFF,QUITE OUTRAGEOUS!

DEMOCRAT,I CAN SEE IT NOW,ALL IN FAVOUR OF BANNING PITCH RENTING,99% AGREE,NO OBJECTIONS FROM THE RACECOURSES OR AGT OR GAMBLING COMMISSION,CHANCE OF IT HAPPENING 0.

BIGGEST ABUSERS OF ALL THATS WRONG WITH ONCOURSE BOOKMAKING RESIDE MOSTLY IN THE TOP TEN PICKS,NO MORE QUESTIONS MI LORD!

im just catching up on a few things and coming across sportsadvisors postings 19th ...13.53--14.01.........YES GET RID OF THE CURRENT LEADERS YA CAN SEE EASILY JUST EXACTLY WHAT THEYVE DONE ,OK THEY SPENT A LOT OF TIME AND HARD WORK IN TALKS BUT TO WHOSE BENEFIT

MUGBOOKIE 19TH.....17.51.........BRILLIAINT STATEMENT

as a non bookmaker can i ask do you lads have to be members of a bookmakers trade assosiation to stand

on the racecourses bpa rba etc or is membership optional

and non members dont have to abide by decisions made by such.

IF THE MAJORITY OF YOU WANT TO OUTLAW PITCH RENTING THEN WHY DONT YOU DO IT .....CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG .....BUT DONT YOU HAVE A VOTE .....IF YA NOT HAPPY WHOS RUNNING THE SHOW ,THEN HOW COME YOU DONT VOTE EM OFF...............IM SCRATCHING MY HEAD HERE ........................AT WHAT  PERCENTAGE IS THERE PITCH RENTING BOOKIES 51 I DOUBT IF THERES 49 THEN WHY DONT THE 51 THAT DONT LIKE IT FK EM OFF ....................ITS CALLED HAVING A VOTE ISNT IT......DEMOCRACY ........................FOXY YA BETFRED ISSUE IS SPOT ON I WENT JULY AND THE HAD EM IN MEMBERS THEY HAD QUEUES ALL NIGHT THE RAILS WASNT BOTHERED THEY WERE DOING A RIGHT TRADE THAT NIGHT (BUT YA RIGHT)

FACT if you are saying that despite an overwhelming democratic decision outlawing pitch renting it would still go on then you might be correct. This issue would need to be supported by another decision to allow one person to be on only one Schedule Y - this in itself would not prevent pitch renting but it would definitely reduce it.

mr crisp ,
no you do not have to be a member of any association

York today
race 1 1234 at 1/6th odds
race 2 12 at 1/5th odds
race 3 12 at 1/5th odds
race 4 12 at 1/5th odds
race 5 1234 at 1/6th odds
race 6 123 at 1/5th odds

now banned banks thinks he is the best thing for bookmaking since sliced bread and johnny Wilkinson licks his backside whenever possible. the best advert for this thread imaginable imo

If we had the remit to run the pitches then, yes, we could have a vote and that would then decide what happened.

Unfortunately we don't.

adge, that is appalling.  I thought such shenanigans were a thing of the past.  Disgrace.

That,s why you lot need regulated,just a bunch of pickpockets.

mmmalushka

how did you find York today ?

Mmmama pickpockets are disciplined, professional and organised in what they do, ( some even work as a team ) - your comparison does not seem very appropriate !

foxy,not been to York for years.
democrat,
race 1 1234 at 1/6th odds
race 2 12 at 1/5th odds
race 3 12 at 1/5th odds
race 4 12 at 1/5th odds
race 5 1234 at 1/6th odds
race 6 123 at 1/5th odds
What a way to treat your punters,and then they come on here and moan about the lack of business compared to years ago despite attendances holding up and increasing.
adge,1/5 the odds 16-21 runner h/caps is just treating your customers with contempt dont forget punters have expenses too.

LOLOL ADGE I CANT BELIVEEVE LOLOL YOUVE SAID THAT ABOUT ME LOLOLOL........THE REASON IVE HIGHLIGHTED YOUR THREADS IS BECAUSE TO TAKE IN EVERYTHING YOU SAY LOLOL THE LAST TIME U HAD A LOSING DAY WAS ABOUT 6 YEARS AGO LOLOL........YOUR HILARIUOS

NOW FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER IM ABOUT TO TAKE SIDES WITH MAMMY BUT 20.40 AND 13.56 POSTINGS THERE IS A SUBSTANCE VIABILITY IN HIS REPLYS ISNT THERE ???????THE PEOPLE THAT BET TO THESES TERMS WOULD BASICALLY FK THERE GRANDMA............I DONT EXPECT ONE COMEBACK TO WHAT IM SAYING BEACUSE MOST OF YOU HAVE SPENT THE LAST 5 YEARS SMASHING JOCKY AND THE REST OF EM OVER LONG OFF

ADGE LOLOLOL YOUR MY FAVOURITE

mmm , I don't believe that many who shaft the public mercilessly come on here moaning . could be wrong though.
lost £135 on the places with the 16 runner handicap betting to 106% is that  treating people with contempt. you have a lot to learn about betting and value

just for you johnny , I lost 4 -2 today [ just over £50 plus exes ]

feck know's what this is all about but all I can say is jonnywilkinson * CAP FECKIN LOCKS YA CANT !

ROLL ON 2019

mmamaluska still bookie bashing (do u never give up !! )
as you know you get better win prices with the 1/5th odds ,and as anyone who has tried betting 1/4 odds in 16 runner races , will tell you, the majority of the punters want the best WIN  prices !! and before you say use your phone : you consistently beat the show and SP on course !!

adge iwon 252 on places today ( betting standard terms of course )jocky will have paid for the week !!

adge, do a calculation of the win parts of your ew only transactions and tell us how much you won or lost.

don't have software to do that or the energy but you can't get away from the point that when you are betting to 1% per runner the place percentage at 1/5th odds is low and at 1/4 odds is overbroke.
I don't mind betting overbroke on places on maidens because I can use my skill and judgement to survive that because in those races punters want each way but betting overbroke on places in handicaps is suicide.
you can't go lower win prices and bet 1/4 because the punters ignore you as we tried in the early days , it just doesn't work .

anyway , I have the problem of the two books to the left an two to the right of me betting 1/5th on the 15 runner handicaps today to contend with

name and shame adge !!

I had one next to me at York in tatts too adge.

I just wonder if being in the minority really is the right way. all the usual suspects DM

Now the negatives are coming out adge - after you extolling the virtues of good old York Silver !!

and weather to contend with today too , another negative.

IM SURE YOULL BREAK ALL RECORDS ADGE ME OLD PAL

Ribero1 post of 20 Aug 2013 @ 19.49 is inaccurate and I feel compelled to add my recollections.

Firstly ,if you ask Geoff Banks he would readily agree that it wasn't me who he spoke to on Meat Loaf Saturday (I doubt he knows who I am for starters).My pick wasn't as you assumed next to his and my best guess would be Jack lynn is the bookie concerned.
With regard to the supposed well reasoned argument by Will Rosoff he was introduced by the then NAB chairman John Stevenson as being an expert in the field of exchange betting.
In Will Rosoffs opening statement he told the assembled audience he did not have a Betfair account.On hearing this to my mind any credence evaporated.Bearing in mind the meeting was at least 10 years ago I can forgive a lapse of memory but cannot let it go unanswered.
My reasons for returning to the oncourse industry are again in my view totally different from yours ,but will happily explain if you ever wish to discuss them with me .

A @ A Racing

Ok,apologies if I got things wrong but an easy mistake to make looking at the newbury rails list and its certainly none of my business why you are back in the ring and apologies again.
However while we are here just a couple of questions,firstly were you or were you not strongly in favour of using exchanges on course back then?and did you not try and speak up in favour of them at that meeting?
Secondly what is your view on the impact of exchanges in the ring now you are back?

re the place terms the sooner the better this change comes in yet another example was in the first at cartmel yesterday first race 6 runners those betting at 1/4 1,2 had around 117 in the place book yet there were still books going 1/5th they just cant help themselves.

the same as all those around me going 1/5th odds in the ebor. the RCA would have accepted 1/6th odds in certain maiden races as not a problem but the one's who shout the loudest are the one's who shot themselves in the foot and lost the arguement

What happens under the JCR rules if you are betting 1/4 1,2 in a 5 runner race and there is a non runner?

it reverts to 1/5th 12

adge - are you totally sure of that?

That is my understanding of it too inthknow, unless you display otherwise (ie 4 or less win only)

it wont matter because there wont be anyone to enforce the rules.


don't forget when the rule changes came in if a bookmaker changed the standard terms to 1/5th 1st 4 in a 16 runner handicap he was meant to pay out on the 4th even if one got withdrawn and made it 15 but nobody ever did.

Surely they should revert to win only as per Tatts rules.

It is no different to people offering non standard terms now. They should revert to standard Tatts terms if there is a non runner unless they display that they will be doing otherwise.

don't forget when the rule changes came in if a bookmaker changed the standard terms to 1/5th 1st 4 in a 16 runner handicap he was meant to pay out on the 4th even if one got withdrawn and made it 15 but nobody ever did.

Is that right?

I thought that any NR meant reversion to standard terms.

I'll try and get the correct ruling

bb

if you changed the place terms you were meant to honour them regardless but as I say nobody did because nobody enforced it.

no , but the usual suspects then paid 1/5th 123 [ not changing to 1/4 123 ]

Get going!

this very thing happened at the Pontefract sunday last week BB.
a horse got withdrawn at the start reducing from 5 to 4 runners.
the course announcement took three gos before saying place betting was changed from two places to one [ which very few understood ]
I have been betting each way 12 with four runners for more than two years  now and paid accordingly , everybody collected on the second

Ribero1,

You are absolutely 100% correct that I was a passionate supporter of Betfair at the meeting and went to many lengths to try and establish its role on the racecourse.I did not see then and don't now ,how monitoring of Exchanges by anyone with internet access can be avoided on a racecourse in a way that would work,leading to inevitable opportunities for arbing.
Despite this I would readily agree that Betfair has led to a decline of ring viability and with the benefit of hindsight would not have been so blinkered, but at the time I believed in the benefits but not the impact these would have.
Various associations spent too much time arguing amongst themselves without ever grappling the bigger issues and that remains the case.
The rings are in a bad shape ,much worse than I thought possible and its only the British Publics devotion to racing that is keeping many oncourse bookmakers in a living.The enduring love of horses and racing has been racecourse bookmakers saviour and long may that continue.
A lot of water has flown under many bridges,opportunities abounded for anyone with vision and belief and its still a work in progress.I don't regret much of what I have done in the past ten years or so,its been an exciting, creative time-I dont think many racecourse bookmakers would say the same.

Good post kevin,I've still enjoyed the last 10 years although like others feel very frustrated by the actions of many who now call themselves bookmakers and of course they can only get away with this because they have the exchanges to protect them.
I was passionately against them because of all the money going out of the ring and that remains my stance although I have to use them myself nowadays.
Incidentally I was also quite clued up on in running betting from the early days as with a decent knowledge of the horses I could get a few bob even typing the bets in during the race at home!And was well aware that it was a licence to print money for the fast pic boys in those days,good luck.

Good for you-I got into it quite late but found other vehicles to work on that I found worthwhile.Might be interesting one day to swop war stories,

Be lucky

Alan

I BET EW 1-4 ...1-2 15 YEARS AGO ....CANT REMEMBER ANYBODY ELSE DOING IT AT THE TIME

YA SEE RIBERO ..WHAT ANNOYED ME WAS  ,IT DIDNT BOTHER ME WHO I BET NEXT TO ON THE OLD ESL ...BUT THE PIGS WHO WOULDNT LAY DOG MUCK CAME ALONG IN 2000 NOW BECAME RICHARD THE LIONHEARTS .....IF EVER A FELLA DID THE RIGHT THING IT WAS YOUR MAN RIBERO .....THE PIGS WOULD HAVE DESTROYED HIS SELF ESTEEM

Banks was ere...

Re: previous post about ARB AGM- I understand that far from a packed house, not even the telephone box was full.

adge, re your Ponte example.  Weren't the puntes who backed the winner a bit p*ssed off only being paid the place part instead of double stakes on the winner ?

Just for clarification, in the event of w/d horses reducing a field to less than 5 runners, billys will round-up all ew stakes to win & all reps will have a notice displayed to reflect this

not one of them , ian , it's exactly what they expected.

intheknow , I hope you will have checked with the RCA before doing that as it appears to contravene the basic set terms

Thats right Johnny you could hold your own against most and hope you might get next to a total non-trier...... now everybody a trier cos of the back up they got behind the joint............  times change though

Thats right Johnny you could hold your own against most and hope you might get next to a total non-trier...... now everybody a trier cos of the back up they got behind the joint............  times change though

yes adge, we are in the process of confirming this but I'm hopeful that the RCA & subsequently ARC will put something on the AGT website in a similar vein to the JCR clarification statement

we have guests attending next sunday. so will have full clarity provided then. more to follow on this

yes, unfortunately I can't attend as down in Cardiff that weekend

not putting your hat in the ring this year ?
anyway the 5 runner race with a withdrawal at the start will be covered from all possibilities

a very enterprising young man at haydock yesterday bet without the rag in the bad ew race therefore was allowed to go 1st two 1/4.

whilst not really in the spirt of things I have to take my hat of to him for thinking about it.

Thats quite bad Jimnast

probably is starshaped but as a one of It brought a smile to my face.

Is that legal?

No point in standard terms if this is allowed to go unchecked.

Thats why you lot need regulated.

good morning ribero

is it legal ? I have no idea but like shortcuts to racecourses bookmakers find loopholes.

It's perfectly legal to bet 'without' runners- provided there's very clear signeage. Thats the problem though

I've now been told by a reliable source that in the event of a race being reduced to less than 5 runners by w/d horses it defaults to a 'win only' settlement unless you have a sign displayed that you will settle ew bets at 1/5 1-2

This is the opposite of what we were originally told and is clearly not what it states on the AGT website for any of the changes

Apparently, defaulting to anything other than 'win only' would be against Tatts Rules of Racing and that's not the route the racecourse groups wanted to go down

Can anyone confirm this is correct even though the AGT website statements say otherwise?

Surely it must be the dafault of 1/4 1,2 not 'win only' as these are now the terms now attached to our contracts ?

Morning Ian, the EW details attached to the contracts in SC E show the terms you must bet to if you wish to offer ew betting. If you choose to bet ew on 3 or 4 runner races then you must bet to 1/5, 1-2 (not 1/4 1-2). The grey area is if a race is reduced to less than 5 by withdrawn horses in respect of what are the default terms. JCR issued a clarification statement on the AGT website saying the default is 1/5 1-2 unless you have a sign saying you will settle as 'all on to win'. However, now I'm told that the opposite applies, i.e. the default is 'all on to win' but you may settle as 1/5 1-2 if you display a sign saying so.

I'm trying to get this clarified but it did come from someone who would surely know and it wasn't another bookmaker

WAS IT GERRY SUTCLIFFE

no & it wasn't his brother Peter either

PETER PROBABLY KNOWS MORE REGARDING THE POLITICS OF RACECOURSES