Forums
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
jonjo
10 Jun 13 08:53
Joined:
Date Joined: 14 Sep 02
| Topic/replies: 3,413 | Blogger: jonjo's blog
I was a little puzzled this morning to read in the Racing Post (website) that Mr Stickels intends to water in order to start the Royal Ascot meeting on 'good ground' ?

Firstly, can someone tell me how this is justified, when the BHA directive is for clerks to aim to achieve good to FIRM ground as a safety measure (we wont get into how Bath, Brighton, Warwick etc can be allowed to race on officially firm ground, as Brighton are today) yet Mr Stickels is allowed to make this announcement without fear of censure from the BHA, NTF, ROA or anyone else?

Surely watering at this stage, taking into account the vagaries of or recent summers should be kept to a level where he is aiming for ground on the quicker side of good?

It's not like he's adverse to watering overnight at any stage of the meeting, he has a track record for doing this?

On a brighter note, it ought to be good for the game long term (asides from making potential stallions out of cripples that couldnt cope with genuine fast ground & weakening the breed further still) because false watered ground, with man made draw biases sits a lot better with bookmaker profits than genuine fast ground. So here's hoping we get a good downpour on Monday night & we can look forward to some truly unfathomable results, but relax in the knowledge that prizemoney levels might just about be maintained.......

Post your reply

Text Format: Table: Smilies:
Forum does not support HTML
Insert Photo
Cancel
Page 1 of 3  •  Previous 1 | 2 | 3 | Next
sort by:
Show
per page
Replies: 104
By:
turnip turns
When: 10 Jun 13 09:38
I really do believe that COC's can now do as they see fit and that the word "FIRM" is greatly feared by them generally speaking,if they allow summer jumping on good to firm what is the problem with Ascot having fast ground on the flat ffsCrazy
By:
duncan idaho
When: 10 Jun 13 09:47
i'd imagine the difference is that it's a 5-day meeting, so the only way to ensure you dont have FIRM by day 5 is to start on Good, cos it's only possible to put so much on between each day...just guessing, and i'm sure the forecast for the week would affect thinking
By:
turnip turns
When: 10 Jun 13 09:51
I would say Stickels is "guessing" re the weather tbh and that where the problem lies,if he waters now and the forecast is wrong,which is perfectly possible,then what !
By:
duncan idaho
When: 10 Jun 13 09:53
he'll get sl@gged off by all the aftertimers....just like he would if he didnt water and it ended up Firm for the last 2 days
By:
turnip turns
When: 10 Jun 13 10:04
Personally speaking i would be happy enough if he watered to have  good ground on the first day if he feels he has too,but stopped ALL watering after and if it went firm come friday and saturday so be it,it's summer we are supposed to have fast ground.
By:
duncan idaho
When: 10 Jun 13 10:11
pretty sure there'd be plenty of NRs if they let it go Firm...they dont want that
By:
J.R.Hartley
When: 10 Jun 13 11:09
If the weather stays fine it will be difficult for them.....i remember going to Ascot in 08 and walking the course early morning and couldn't believe the amount of water going on the

track.....felt like it was the soft side of good when it was quick ground the day before....went away delighted thinking that the silly fools had changed the ground only for it to be like a road again by noon!
The new drainage system has ruined the course imo.
By:
John.W.Henry.
When: 10 Jun 13 12:16
Monday 17 June—Sunday 23 JuneA northwest/southeast divide?

It looks like the wet and windy weather affecting northwestern areas of the UK through the previous weekend will rapidly sink south and east, putting an abrupt in end to the drier and warmer weather in the south of the UK.

As the week unfolds though, we are likely to see a return to a southeast/northwest divide, with bands of heavier showers and rain pushed in by stronger winds and a prevailing cooler feel for northwestern parts of the UK, whereas southern and eastern areas should stay drier and brighter with a temperatures peaking just above the average for June. That's not to say that the south will completely avoid any showery activity though, with some spells of wet weather anticipated at times.
By:
turnip turns
When: 10 Jun 13 13:29
WATERING CONTINUING AT ASCOT
10 Jun 2013




Watering resumed at Ascot on Monday ahead of next week's Royal meeting with little rain forecast over the next few days at least.

Clerk of the course Chris Stickels turned on the taps on Friday and will do so again on Wednesday as he endeavours to get as near to good ground as possible for the start of the five-day feast.

"We had a drying week last week and a drying weekend so we put a spot of water on the course on Friday and we're back watering again today," Stickels told At The Races.

"We'll probably water again on Wednesday and we will review the forecast as time goes on.

"There are bits of pieces of rain forecast this week, but not really amounting to anything sufficient enough to ease the ground.

"At the moment we are a mixture of good and good to firm. That is the sort of ground we need to start Royal Ascot on given a dry week.

"We will monitor the situation to see what the forecast is for next week which is not entirely clear yet. We need to water to get it to a manageable type of ground."
By:
turnip turns
When: 14 Jun 13 12:39
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/forecast/ascot-racecourse#?tab=fiveDay&fcTime=1371164400

looks like stickels has messed up,plenty of rain is now forecast ffsAngry
By:
judorick
When: 14 Jun 13 12:42
CryCry
By:
onlooker
When: 14 Jun 13 13:26
turnip turns     10 Jun 13 10:04

Personally speaking i would be happy enough if he watered to have  good ground on the first day if he feels he has too, but stopped ALL watering after and if it went firm come friday and saturday so be it, it's summer we are supposed to have fast ground.

------------------------

Agreed

For me, the even bigger sin is, WATERING DURING a meeting - often changing the ground from - a time-assessed -  Good to Firm on, say, the 2nd day, to Good to an [b]UNannounced Good to SOFT on the 3rd day.

Interfering Tawts.Sad
By:
onlooker
When: 14 Jun 13 13:27
^ * to an UNannounced Good to SOFT
By:
judorick
When: 14 Jun 13 13:29
totally agree

how are you supposed to do ante post betting? disgrace this watering
By:
Dr Gonzo
When: 14 Jun 13 13:49
how are you supposed to do ante post betting?

I'm sure the bookmakers are more than happy with the present situation...
By:
duncan idaho
When: 14 Jun 13 13:56
how are you supposed to do ante post betting?


you'll be wanting to control the weather next
By:
BJT
When: 14 Jun 13 13:58
Oh no, the groundstaff are watering the ground, whatever will we do? 

The fcuking cheek of them, doing their job.......

I know you guys like your paddocks, but get real...
By:
judorick
When: 14 Jun 13 14:03
stfu BJT

it's not about watering, it's about watering enough to change the state of the going for the start of the meeting when there is unsettled weather around

meaning the going could be false and the meeting is not allowed to start on fast going

you get real ffs, there is nothing wrong with fast ground and this policy is all wrong
By:
brigust1
When: 14 Jun 13 14:10
Ascot has recently laid a laser levelled, free draining surface on the whole straight course that is why the round course and straight course have completely different going descriptions. Where they water is the important thing. For me this is another clear message about how can anyone trust sectionals and timing in general when the going changes are never trusted in the first place.
By:
scoobytoo
When: 14 Jun 13 19:57
Plans for further watering at Ascot will hinge on whether a forecast band of rain for Friday night dropped its anticipated volume of between 3mm and 4mm, with the ground a mixture of good and good to firm after a dry and breezy day.

Chris Stickels, clerk of the course, said at tea-time on Friday: "We're forecast a spell of rain overnight of between 3mm and 4mm and if that arrives all well and good. However, if it doesn't the ground will become good to firm and I'll have to consider putting some water on, possibly tomorrow afternoon. But the forecast is very changeable at the moment and that makes things a bit tricky."

Further light rain is forecast during Sunday night into Monday. The Met Office was forecasting a mixture of sunshine and showers with a high of 16C for Tuesday's opening day.

Stickels added: "Temperatures are due to rise as the week goes on, to perhaps a high of 21c which will be very pleasant for racegoers. But, as I said, the forecast is very changeable."

The rain forecast for Sunday-showers Monday and Tuesday are then disregarded.
By:
millhouse
When: 15 Jun 13 08:49
Jonjo has it spot on as usual - as with the question as to why Colour Vision didn't get disqualified in last year's Gold Cup, the answer to this and every other unfathomable question in this rancid and complicit industry is now very simple.

Because that's what the bookmakers want...
By:
BJT
When: 15 Jun 13 09:08

Jun 14, 2013 -- 2:03PM, judorick wrote:


stfu BJTit's not about watering, it's about watering enough to change the state of the going for the start of the meeting when there is unsettled weather aroundmeaning the going could be false and the meeting is not allowed to start on fast goingyou get real ffs, there is nothing wrong with fast ground and this policy is all wrong


Now now, calm down old man, everything will be alright.


You know the going now, you know the plans of the groundstaff, you will get GS readings at acceptances, and before racing on each day, and you also know the weather.

Nothing false about it.
They are required by the rules of racing to provide you with the going stick readings at the start of every day, so they aren't really hiding anything.

By:
johnnyrant
When: 15 Jun 13 09:15
It's like this guy doesn't check the forecast. Loads of rain around Ascot area today & over next few days. Dicing with death watering. All it needs is a big squally shower or 3 & it'll be on the soft side, & if he waters it'll be loose on top & lots of horses won't act.
By:
silvergreaser
When: 15 Jun 13 09:17
first few days shows huge draw bias then he waters the crap out of the side where the draw bias is, then the bias switches to the other side.
By:
johnnyrant
When: 15 Jun 13 09:26
It seems absurd to even consider watering given the forecast.
By:
Outpost
When: 15 Jun 13 09:28
it rained there this morning and they are expecting more showers later today.
the weather forecast for the week is for it to be unsettled with a chance of showers most days.

in other words, there is very little chance of the ground being "like a road" during Royal Ascot and yet the CoC has already put more water on today and is planning to water further before and during the meeting. 

It was the big fast ground summer meetings that made flat racing popular.
now they race on manufactured slop which suits the plodders (and bookies) and penalises the faster horses (and punters) and yet racing still wonders why it's losing it's popularity in the leisure market. 

let the trainers who can't train horses to run fast, withdraw their slow horses if they want, and that will then leave the top races to be contested by the fastest horses, thus improving the breed.
By:
millhouse
When: 15 Jun 13 09:31
Outpost, that's spot on, but the name of the game is now removing punters money, not making it easy for the best horse to win...
By:
jonjo
When: 15 Jun 13 09:33
Which is something he has form for.........we've had jockeys coming back mud splattered on the saturday when there hasnt been a drop of rain & we also had 'Squelchy-gate' when gormless Luke Harvey blurted out when doing the going report on the morning that the ground was 'squelchy' on one side of the track.....He wont get that gig this week, that's for sure....

BJT. We might know stick readings etc, but it's all open to Stickels interpretation of those readings for the majority of the punters out there.
I dont give a stuff what he calls it myself, because I have records of times set against previous stick readings, so I will know what the going is, irrespective of his 'spin' next week, when I can guarantee he will call it "lovely ground" at some point on Tuesday morning......Punters all over the country, indeed the world, will be stuck with whatever he describes it as though.

And there is the usual danger of him messing about & trying to water out biases on the straight course & if he's watering on the round course on a stick reading below 8.5 he wants taking outside & shooting.........But as I've said, the BHA will do/say NOTHING because the more unfathomable it is next week, the better their utterly stupid executives will think it is for the game (short termism at it's worst)

We should be striving to produce a product that people want to bet on, where people think the regulatory authority have some interest in punters wellfare., Sectional timings in addition to accurate going forecasts/reports should be a gimme, as should clerks NOT altering perfectly raceable safe ground (there are no stats to prove quick ground is unsafe)and dressing it up as a safety measure (easy sop to the sickening RSPCA) When really, we all know that it's just licenced tinkering & keeps some racing professionals happy, especially those who want to run cripples in midsummer (not much thought for horse welfare there is there?)
By:
turnip turns
When: 15 Jun 13 10:06
Exactly jonjo,the upshot is they don't want you to win,i can remember a time yrs ago when watering was minimal and the months of June,July and August were very profitable,simple reason was constant ground,but THEY have now put paid to that.
By:
millhouse
When: 15 Jun 13 10:11
the upshot is they don't want you to win

Unequivocally, Horse Racing UK's business model is built around this requirement...
By:
asparagus
When: 15 Jun 13 10:11
Sadly no one in power will question the scandalous overwatering that goes on. Royal Ascot should be all about the fastest horses. It's an absolute scandal that he's watering today but no one will question him. The people in charge are quite happy with a lottery.
By:
millhouse
When: 15 Jun 13 10:14
The problem, Asparagus, is that the people in charge make more money with a lottery...
By:
turnip turns
When: 15 Jun 13 10:41
I have just bought up a thread on the ante post forum that goes back 4 yrs and nothing has changed re Chris Stickels,how the fcuk he's still in a job is mindboggling..........................................then again maybe not.
By:
Dr Gonzo
When: 15 Jun 13 11:26
Great post Jonjo.
By:
Aviboyd
When: 15 Jun 13 11:33
Fair play Jonjo, carry on the fight!  I gave up long ago, there is only so much banging your head against a brick wall one can take. As soon as the current generation of punters die out that will be the end for British horse racing....
By:
Roger De Bris
When: 15 Jun 13 11:49
Watering – My View

by Neil Mackenzie Ross


To water or not to water – My view

Perhaps the greatest outcome of watering is the debate it provides, I mean imagine if we didn’t do it, a major talking point would be lost.  So why do we do it, well the recent cold spring has meant we have watered to promote grass growth but ordinarily it is to manipulate the ‘going’ on our racecourses in order to provide safe ground, both for horses and riders.  One point to clear up at this stage is that the British Horseracing Authority (BHA) General Instruction for Flat racing is to aim to produce Good to Firm ground but with the agreement of the BHA Racecourse Inspectorate providing Good ground is appropriate.

The most common thread of feedback from trainers in the almost eight years experience I have had of preparing racing surfaces has been don’t produce firm ground.  It is my belief that unless circumstances conspire against you then firm conditions are not particularly likely to be found on a UK racecourse, unless of course you are Bath who have no watering facilities and therefore cannot avoid firm ground during a dry spell.  So, in the lead up to a meeting when the forecast is inconclusive for rain then I will water, as the risk of the rain not coming and the ground going firm is less preferable than the rain coming and the ground easing.

Producing ground which provides a good experience for horses is though not the only factor to consider.  The nature of a track like Lingfield Park is such that ensuring there is plenty of moisture in the ground coming down the hill (which is taken on the turn) is imperative in order for horses to get a grip and consequently for jockeys to feel confident coming down it.  Not watering the hill, the ground going firm and a shower of rain coming down on raceday could cause horses to slip, resulting in disastrous consequences.

So, watering will no doubt continue to provoke great debate and polarise opinion but providing a safe surface for horse and jockey will always be my aim.  If showers come after watering then so be it but with the above in mind I will rest easier if not contently.  The best comments about ground always come when the ground is Good and for me ground on the fast side of Good is the ideal.
By:
Outpost
When: 15 Jun 13 12:04
if you put the ascot CoC in charge of a rice paddy field, he would water it.
By:
duncan idaho
When: 15 Jun 13 13:24
parallel universe thread imo
By:
johnnyrant
When: 15 Jun 13 14:16
Just look at Sandown today - big showers & now on soft side - has anyone tried to contact Stickels to ask exactly what he is doing?
Page 1 of 3  •  Previous 1 | 2 | 3 | Next
sort by:
Show
per page

Post your reply

Text Format: Table: Smilies:
Forum does not support HTML
Insert Photo
Cancel
‹ back to topics
www.betfair.com