Sires for Owner Breeders

lot of suitable ones in Ireland so not sure it helps. Either conversions to Dual purpose through lack of commercial precocity/fashion but produce good runners on flat still, or decent sires that throw less than perfect specimens so not so commercial. i won't say what bracket I'd put them in but think these are all underrated.

Dubai Destination
Daylami
Haafhd
Bahri
Azamour
Elnadim keep his fillies as broodmares
Firebreak
Halling if he were cheaper
Big Bad Bob
Sir Percy
Norse Dancer
Nayef
Passing Glance?
Sakhee
risk Authorized

The missus keeps at me to use our own 'stallion'  Dream Win.   

Hes well bred and had bad luck in life, such as breaking his neck slipping on the roads.  But basically its her pet thats why she wants me to let him have a go, so to speak.

Would anyone ever consider such a move, or is it folly even if your in it for fun

Oratorio is in France,Trade Fair is in Western Australia....and Iceman has been dead for at least 3 years!

Monsieur Bond and Sixties Icon here.

Big Bad Bob in Ire

If you are happy to go to sprinters, Royal Applause and Compton Place consistently make the top 20 sires ranked by GB wins. Monsiur Bond fell from a promising 49 in 2011 to 35 last year. Did he have less 2yo's in training?

Koo, if you don't mind me asking, what are the mare's names? I don't really want to waste your time listing a load of stallions who are too closely bred to your mares. If you would rather not say on here I can give you my email address...

Bar, Knavesmire and Lily Lenor, the other mares wouldnt be the biggest, so might benefit from a sire who stamps his stock with a bit of size.

woops last post corrected, British Sires under £10k for Certral

Halling
Debussy
Proclamation
Native Ruler?
Authorized

For Sorcellerie

Piccolo
Firebreak
Haafhd
Winker Watson
Notnowcato

It is indeed Caranbola, fire away any suggestions.  And that list of pedigrees are the right ones

Ah, not a bad bunch! Some nice pedigrees in there and plenty of decent racehorses. I'm not sure exactly what you want to be breeding, in terms of type: two year olds, speed horses, stayers etc? And I haven't seen the horses so I can only judge based on what you've said. But I do enjoy a challenge!

As you are looking to breed to race I would probably stick to proven sires - at least those who have had some runners anyway. This does mean you can miss out on a bit of value in some places but when you consider how many sires go to stud each year and how many actually make it, it's probably not worth the risk.

I wouldn't be opposed to having a go with MOUNT NELSON for the more forward/smaller mares. He doesn't seem to have captured the imagination's of the bloodstock agents and pin-hookers but the reports from trainers are good. He had a fair start with his first two year olds and they're definitely expected to perform better as three year olds this year. Unfortunately they look like they do need time and I know how annoying it can be having a horse in training that isn't ready to run. Though, could turn out to be value off his current fee. Newsells should deal as well.

For the bigger mares you could look at AUSSIE RULES, not much of a sales horse but has had plenty of winners many going on to perform well at stakes level. Often precocious and generally train on. Lanwades unlikely to offer any significant concessions though.

As a cheaper, similar option you could also have a look at CAMACHO. Has done well from fairly average books so far. Has got a decent crop of two year olds running for him this year based on yearling results. Mickley very likely to offer you a discount particularly if you double up with something else.

HAAFHD could be another to consider for the bigger mares - often a bit short in the leg. He has done really well the last couple of years. Gets plenty of winners. Usually early and train on. Though, I think with something like KNAVESMIRE I would be tempted go a bit higher in terms of fee. I think she's done enough on the racecourse to justify it. Could be one for ROYAL APPLAUSE - especially if she has plenty of size about her. Although he gets plenty of two year old winners they do tend to train on well which should compliment the mare.

KHELEYF is another who always seems to be there or thereabouts. Not everyones cup of tea and, again, not always performed at the sales but gets tonnes of early winners. Darley likely to deal.

COMPTON PLACE is always a good bet to get you a good strong type. May be reaching the twilight of his career now, but I think his fee rise this year justifies how popular he is.

SLEEPING INDIAN is a good solid performer. Had an excellent year with his two year olds last year but do tend to perform better with age. Often gets nice neat well-made stock. May be one to consider for LILY LENOR?

If you are looking to stay cheap, I would definitely consider something like MULTIPLEX. Sired plenty of winners from very moderate mares and some have been decent. I've been really impressed from what I've seen of his stock - he really puts his stamp on them. Also gets plenty of early runners as long as the mare isn't too backward. You could possibly get him for around the 1000 mark. Especially if you double up. 

Hope this helps.

Knavesmire looks more conventional

Mount Nelson
Aussie Rules
Kheleyf
Royal Applause
Sakhees Secret

SEPOY

Ananda Canda, no data for Heros tribute, Lenjoleur or Architect

Lily Lenor

Sixties Icon
Bahri
Cockney Rebel
Proclamation
Nayef

I don't particularly rate Proclamation but I keep checking for mistakes and I guess he just suits your mares.

I am taking my time with recommendations.  I know you want local sires, but one cheap sire in Co Carlow, Ireland looks like he would suit the mare Ananda Kenda (I put her pedigree up on pedigreequery.com a few minutes ago.)

The sire is Dandy Man, standing at Ballyhane Stud, Leighlinbridge, Co Carlow, at €4,000.  However, their website does not list him, but itm.ie does list him at Ballyhane Stud (itm - Irish Thoroughbred Marketing.)

Dandy Man was very fast, contesting the 5f King’s Stand Stakes at Royal Ascot four years in a row (4th, 2nd, 4th, 7th).
Dandy Man’s sire was Mozart, a Coolmore sire who died young.  Mozart in a run of four races in 2001 was 2nd in the Irish 2000 Guineas, 1st in the 7f G3 Jersey Stakes, 1st in the 6f G1 July Cup, 1st in the 5f G1 Nunthorpe Stakes.
Dandy Man’s dam, Lady Alexander, was also speedy and precocious, winning three times as a two year old, beating subsequent English 2000 Guineas winner, King Of Kings.

The real reason for suggesting Dandy Man is his pedigree and Ananda Kenda’s pedigrees, when put together, in my opinion complement each other.
They both have supersire Danzig on their male lines (4th generation x 5th generation in the proposed offspring.)
The mare Glowing Tribute is the dam of Sea Hero (Ananda Kenda’s sire's sire), and she is also the dam of Mozart dam’s dam Victoria Cross (4 gen x 4 gen).
The sire of Lady Alexander, Night Shift (Northern Dancer-Ciboulette), is a full sibling (same sire and dam) as Fanfreluche, the dam of Ananda Kenda’s damsire, L’Enjoleur (3 gen x 4 gen).
Besides all these duplications of important ancestors, there are extra of important sires and dams, Ribot, Flower Bowl, Buckpasser, Hail To Reason.

Doubling up good horses in the proposed offspring can load the dice in the breeding lottery.

The sire is fast.  He was precocious, as was his sire and dam.  The fee is small.

gosh, lots of theories abound here,

Sepoy, 15k and rather full!

I wouldn't go near unproven, but I am sure that Koo you have been around long enough to know the massive % of sires that fail without mne saying so.

Simple tables that show you winners to runners would be the place I would start and then if you are ambitious the tables that show superior runners to foals perhaps. I'm afraid that I can't spend any time on your mares pedigrees but I wouild use stallions that mirror your fillies aptitudes and just hope to improve them. The world is your oyster really as there are a lot of sires out there who are cheap because they aren't commercial not because they are bad.

The more you go down the precocious route the worse the stallions become and the vaue for money deteriorates too.

If it were me Koo, I would look to breed something that will get a mile plus and train on. Its ok to get a 2yo but so many of them dont do much after (especially the likes of Kheleyf etc). I would rather not put something in training as a 2yo if I thought it had a good chance of running until its 6 or 7. Many horses are pushed on as 2yo's and it ruins their chances of reaching its true level of ability. Trainers feed them hard and often to get them into shape and create stomach problems for the future and push them too hard on the gallops causing injuries and souring horses. So here are my suggestions for 3yo plus types (all well under £10k):
Shirocco
Dubai Destination
Nayef
Sakhee
Sinndar
Medicean (at £10k is a cheap stallion)


and a couple of unproven ones:
Yeats
Fame and Glory

Veliyka

Unsolicited I know, purely stats based, Ireland

ovalu
Kincsem if you got a chance could u suggest a stallion in Ireland for my mare  Veliyka, she is unraced but she's on the pedigree query site, thanks

No problem.  It might take a week.  Do you want to spend €10 or €100,000?
She seems to be stamina bred, but speed wins races.

At the moment I'm gathering the AEIs of all European and USA sires I can lay my hands on.  My idea is to find the pedigrees with the highest AEI (AEI=average earnings index = average prizemoney won by a sire's offspring / average for all runners.)  A very good sire's runners will earn about four times the average, a poor sire's runners down around 0.3 of average.
Other things I'm working on are average winning distance of a sire's offspring, and likely going preferences of offspring.  I want to be ready for the flat season.  It's my time to waste.

Some people would only be interested in the stallion's AEI, but I would like to know also what the sire's folks were like.

My interest is pedigrees and betting on the flat.
I have no connection with the breeding industry.
I don't claim to be an expert.
I will give reasons for my picks.

Great thread and  very interesting for an owner like myself to read the thoughts of so many informed/astute contributors. For me this is what a forum should be about. Educational/balanced/people trying to help others,what a difference from the usual slagging,nonsense spoken on other forums,keep it up please!!

Koo I hope you appreciate the input you are getting and best of luck with whatever direction you go too.By the way we have something in common in that we both use Danny Cook-very nice guy/good jockey who provides great feedback on the horses performance!!

A good friend of mine has 2 mares and he has chosen Champs Elysees.  His thinking your buying into powerful bloodlines being a full brother to Dansili as a sire and other fabulous racemares.  Not bad at 5k, i thought he stood higher so dismissed a bit.

The sires i like so far. 

Mount Nelson to add a bit of size and get a dual purpose type into the smaller mares as advised above. 
Notnowcato for similar reasons, his 3yo's did really well this year
Sakhee has had some top class runners and again gets 3yo's if thats the way i want to play it.
Haafhd if i want to keep costs down with a bigger mare as the ones ive seen of him can be a bit smaller as someone said on here
Pastoral Pursuits if i want to chance something a bit racier and try and get a 2yo winner for the mares page looking into the future.


Still not ruling anything else out as the other owners of some of the mares havent decided either and if they need my mare to make a deal work then id have to think about their choices as well.