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Koo....
08 Jan 13 09:48
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Date Joined: 07 Nov 07
| Topic/replies: 2,559 | Blogger: Koo....'s blog
I've a couple of mares, and so have a few friends of mine.

We've banded a few names around ourselves and got a rough shortlist, but just wondered if any of the gurus on here had any strong views on which stallions represent best value for money if you were 100% going to keep them on to race on.

Obviously i'm based near York, but im happy to pay a few quid travelling if needed but do understand the convenience angle of walking them in to a sire around here. 

The mares id say aren't anything flash, so lets not go too daft on the prices.  Id be thinking around 10k max


Cheers

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Replies: 115
By:
sageform
When: 08 Jan 13 10:09
Koo, I don't have time to look up stallion fees or where they are based, but for what it is worth these are a few middle of the road sires that get winners.
Clodovil by Danehill.
Haafhd
Iceman
Oratorio-plenty of AW wins lately.
Sleeping Indian
Trade Fair

Hope this helps.
By:
proxygene
When: 08 Jan 13 10:43
lot of suitable ones in Ireland so not sure it helps. Either conversions to Dual purpose through lack of commercial precocity/fashion but produce good runners on flat still, or decent sires that throw less than perfect specimens so not so commercial. i won't say what bracket I'd put them in but think these are all underrated.

Dubai Destination
Daylami
Haafhd
Bahri
Azamour
Elnadim keep his fillies as broodmares
Firebreak
Halling if he were cheaper
Big Bad Bob
Sir Percy
Norse Dancer
Nayef
Passing Glance?
Sakhee
risk Authorized
By:
Posh Paddy
When: 08 Jan 13 13:34
Keeping it in the UK - Monsieur Bond should definately be on your. Sir Percy, Sixties Icon, Royal Applause, Compton Place & Aussie Rules maybe worth a look too.
By:
Koo....
When: 08 Jan 13 13:39
The missus keeps at me to use our own 'stallion'  Dream Win.   

Hes well bred and had bad luck in life, such as breaking his neck slipping on the roads.  But basically its her pet thats why she wants me to let him have a go, so to speak.

Would anyone ever consider such a move, or is it folly even if your in it for fun
By:
Posh Paddy
When: 08 Jan 13 14:03
Normally I'd say you were mad but Oasis Dream out of a Guineas winner maybe worth a crack for a bit of fun despite the average race record and assuming you can overcome the practical and beaurocratic issues you will face.  I wouldn't cover more than 1 mare though.
By:
notenough
When: 08 Jan 13 14:14
Oratorio is in France,Trade Fair is in Western Australia....and Iceman has been dead for at least 3 years!

Monsieur Bond and Sixties Icon here.

Big Bad Bob in Ire
By:
Race1
When: 08 Jan 13 17:26
I think one of the most underrated stallions is Sakhee. He gets high quality horses, 6 stakes horses last year alone, although rarely 2 yos which is probably why he hasn't succeeded commercially.

He's based in Shropshire,being a Southerner I'm not sure how close to York that is??

And is advertised at £2,500, which is great value for an Arc winner.
By:
sageform
When: 08 Jan 13 18:48
If you are happy to go to sprinters, Royal Applause and Compton Place consistently make the top 20 sires ranked by GB wins. Monsiur Bond fell from a promising 49 in 2011 to 35 last year. Did he have less 2yo's in training?
By:
Wilycayote
When: 10 Jan 13 17:41
I quite like Sleeping Indian as a very cheap option. Can get a good horse.

Just watched quite an impressive looking filly by Sakhee's Secret win at kempton tonight who's now won both her starts. Think his 3yo's will progress well.

Enjoying Meydan...missing Dettori
By:
Gimcrack
When: 10 Jan 13 20:52
Koo, if you don't mind me asking, what are the mare's names? I don't really want to waste your time listing a load of stallions who are too closely bred to your mares. If you would rather not say on here I can give you my email address...
By:
Koo....
When: 10 Jan 13 21:39
These are some of the possibles.............

Certral
Sorcellerie
Knavesmire
Caranobola
Ananda Kanda
Lily Lenor
Striking Cat


I only own a couple of them, but just want suggestions as we might get a better deal if we can try and get the same sire for a few together.
By:
Koo....
When: 10 Jan 13 21:40
Bar, Knavesmire and Lily Lenor, the other mares wouldnt be the biggest, so might benefit from a sire who stamps his stock with a bit of size.
By:
proxygene
When: 10 Jan 13 23:40
Don't know how they would match physically but more specifically for Certral would consider

Proclamation
Arkadian Hero
Halling
Debussy
Sleeping Indian
By:
proxygene
When: 11 Jan 13 00:09
woops last post corrected, British Sires under £10k for Certral

Halling
Debussy
Proclamation
Native Ruler?
Authorized

For Sorcellerie

Piccolo
Firebreak
Haafhd
Winker Watson
Notnowcato
By:
kincsem
When: 11 Jan 13 02:57
Are these the fillies?  You said Caranobola but I find Caranbola.


Name____________Dob_____Sire______________Dob_____Dam______________Dob
                   
Certral ________2008____Iffraaj___________2001____Craigmill________1992
Sorcellerie_____2010____Sir Percy_________2003____Souvenance_______2003
Knavesmire______2006____One Cool Cat______2000____Caribbean Escape_1999
Caranbola_______2006____Lucky Story_______2001____Ladywell Blaise__1997
Ananda Kenda____2007____Hero'S Tribute____1998____Roja_____________1990
Lily Lenor______2007____Bertolini_________1996____Mosaique Beauty__2002
Striking Cat____2009____Striking Ambition_2000____Mozie Cat________2003

Pedigrees are one of my hobbies.
My claim to fame this year was tipping Solemia for the Arc on the forum and betting €182 at 75s.
You have about five weeks before the breeding season starts.
If you like I will make some suggestions over the next few weeks.
By:
Koo....
When: 11 Jan 13 09:48
It is indeed Caranbola, fire away any suggestions.  And that list of pedigrees are the right ones
By:
DMCK
When: 11 Jan 13 11:16
i have heard very good reports about Authorized over the last year but most are best described as "headers" and invariably need some type of equipment (hood/cheekpieces/blinkers). For owner/breeders if your willing to compromise on getting a 2year old he has to be on your shortlist.
By:
Gimcrack
When: 11 Jan 13 13:00
Ah, not a bad bunch! Some nice pedigrees in there and plenty of decent racehorses. I'm not sure exactly what you want to be breeding, in terms of type: two year olds, speed horses, stayers etc? And I haven't seen the horses so I can only judge based on what you've said. But I do enjoy a challenge!

As you are looking to breed to race I would probably stick to proven sires - at least those who have had some runners anyway. This does mean you can miss out on a bit of value in some places but when you consider how many sires go to stud each year and how many actually make it, it's probably not worth the risk.

I wouldn't be opposed to having a go with MOUNT NELSON for the more forward/smaller mares. He doesn't seem to have captured the imagination's of the bloodstock agents and pin-hookers but the reports from trainers are good. He had a fair start with his first two year olds and they're definitely expected to perform better as three year olds this year. Unfortunately they look like they do need time and I know how annoying it can be having a horse in training that isn't ready to run. Though, could turn out to be value off his current fee. Newsells should deal as well.

For the bigger mares you could look at AUSSIE RULES, not much of a sales horse but has had plenty of winners many going on to perform well at stakes level. Often precocious and generally train on. Lanwades unlikely to offer any significant concessions though.

As a cheaper, similar option you could also have a look at CAMACHO. Has done well from fairly average books so far. Has got a decent crop of two year olds running for him this year based on yearling results. Mickley very likely to offer you a discount particularly if you double up with something else.

HAAFHD could be another to consider for the bigger mares - often a bit short in the leg. He has done really well the last couple of years. Gets plenty of winners. Usually early and train on. Though, I think with something like KNAVESMIRE I would be tempted go a bit higher in terms of fee. I think she's done enough on the racecourse to justify it. Could be one for ROYAL APPLAUSE - especially if she has plenty of size about her. Although he gets plenty of two year old winners they do tend to train on well which should compliment the mare.

KHELEYF is another who always seems to be there or thereabouts. Not everyones cup of tea and, again, not always performed at the sales but gets tonnes of early winners. Darley likely to deal.

COMPTON PLACE is always a good bet to get you a good strong type. May be reaching the twilight of his career now, but I think his fee rise this year justifies how popular he is.

SLEEPING INDIAN is a good solid performer. Had an excellent year with his two year olds last year but do tend to perform better with age. Often gets nice neat well-made stock. May be one to consider for LILY LENOR?

If you are looking to stay cheap, I would definitely consider something like MULTIPLEX. Sired plenty of winners from very moderate mares and some have been decent. I've been really impressed from what I've seen of his stock - he really puts his stamp on them. Also gets plenty of early runners as long as the mare isn't too backward. You could possibly get him for around the 1000 mark. Especially if you double up. 

Hope this helps.
By:
roadrunner46
When: 12 Jan 13 08:02
Iffraaj £10,000 looks good bet.
By:
proxygene
When: 12 Jan 13 09:09
Knavesmire looks more conventional

Mount Nelson
Aussie Rules
Kheleyf
Royal Applause
Sakhees Secret
By:
jmc27
When: 12 Jan 13 13:15
No one going for Medicean???
By:
Black Sam Bellamy
When: 12 Jan 13 15:29
SEPOY
By:
proxygene
When: 12 Jan 13 17:33
Caranbola

Royal Applause
Multiplex
Kheleyf
Aussie Rules
Proclamation
By:
proxygene
When: 12 Jan 13 17:55
Ananda Canda, no data for Heros tribute, Lenjoleur or Architect

Lily Lenor

Sixties Icon
Bahri
Cockney Rebel
Proclamation
Nayef

I don't particularly rate Proclamation but I keep checking for mistakes and I guess he just suits your mares.
By:
proxygene
When: 12 Jan 13 18:06
Striking Cat

Nayef
Passing Glance
Arabian Gleam ?
Royal Applause
Bated Breath
By:
kincsem
When: 12 Jan 13 19:52
I am taking my time with recommendations.  I know you want local sires, but one cheap sire in Co Carlow, Ireland looks like he would suit the mare Ananda Kenda (I put her pedigree up on pedigreequery.com a few minutes ago.)

The sire is Dandy Man, standing at Ballyhane Stud, Leighlinbridge, Co Carlow, at €4,000.  However, their website does not list him, but itm.ie does list him at Ballyhane Stud (itm - Irish Thoroughbred Marketing.)

Dandy Man was very fast, contesting the 5f King’s Stand Stakes at Royal Ascot four years in a row (4th, 2nd, 4th, 7th).
Dandy Man’s sire was Mozart, a Coolmore sire who died young.  Mozart in a run of four races in 2001 was 2nd in the Irish 2000 Guineas, 1st in the 7f G3 Jersey Stakes, 1st in the 6f G1 July Cup, 1st in the 5f G1 Nunthorpe Stakes.
Dandy Man’s dam, Lady Alexander, was also speedy and precocious, winning three times as a two year old, beating subsequent English 2000 Guineas winner, King Of Kings.

The real reason for suggesting Dandy Man is his pedigree and Ananda Kenda’s pedigrees, when put together, in my opinion complement each other.
They both have supersire Danzig on their male lines (4th generation x 5th generation in the proposed offspring.)
The mare Glowing Tribute is the dam of Sea Hero (Ananda Kenda’s sire's sire), and she is also the dam of Mozart dam’s dam Victoria Cross (4 gen x 4 gen).
The sire of Lady Alexander, Night Shift (Northern Dancer-Ciboulette), is a full sibling (same sire and dam) as Fanfreluche, the dam of Ananda Kenda’s damsire, L’Enjoleur (3 gen x 4 gen).
Besides all these duplications of important ancestors, there are extra of important sires and dams, Ribot, Flower Bowl, Buckpasser, Hail To Reason.

Doubling up good horses in the proposed offspring can load the dice in the breeding lottery.

The sire is fast.  He was precocious, as was his sire and dam.  The fee is small.
By:
kincsem
When: 12 Jan 13 20:17
Kentucky Broodmares of the Year Since 1946

1993 GLOWING TRIBUTE, 1973 (Graustark-Admiring, by Hail to Reason)
Sire line: Ribot
9 wins, $230,819, Stakes Winner
DP 6-3-29-10-4, DI 0.82, CD –0.06

Hero’s Honor, by Northern Dancer;
Wild Applause, by Northern Dancer;
Glowing Honor, by Seattle Slew;
Seattle Glow, by Seattle Slew;
Sea Hero, by Polish Navy;
Coronation Cup, by Chief’s Crown;
Mackie, by Summer Squall
By:
potentialmillionaire
When: 12 Jan 13 20:45
gosh, lots of theories abound here,

Sepoy, 15k and rather full!

I wouldn't go near unproven, but I am sure that Koo you have been around long enough to know the massive % of sires that fail without mne saying so.

Simple tables that show you winners to runners would be the place I would start and then if you are ambitious the tables that show superior runners to foals perhaps. I'm afraid that I can't spend any time on your mares pedigrees but I wouild use stallions that mirror your fillies aptitudes and just hope to improve them. The world is your oyster really as there are a lot of sires out there who are cheap because they aren't commercial not because they are bad.

The more you go down the precocious route the worse the stallions become and the vaue for money deteriorates too.
By:
kincsem
When: 12 Jan 13 21:47
UK Sire locations

Berkshire________2
Carmarthenshire__1
County Durham____4
Devon____________1
Durham___________1
Gloucestershire__11
Hampshire________5
Hertfordshire____2
Lanarkshire______1
Leicestershire___2
Norfolk__________3
Northumberland___3
Oxfordshire______1
Shropshire_______17
Somerset_________7
South Wales______2
Staffordshire____1
Suffolk__________31

I agree with the previous poster about proven sires.

A good place to look would be the Statistical Record Annual published by Weatherbys.
Under Sires you can find their winners in the past year listed, but of greater interest
is the Average Earnings for the year, and cumulative.  And the cumulative AEI
shows the number of "year starters" e.g.342, so you have an idea of how solid is the AEI.

Unfortunately, I stopped buying it around 2000.  I see the 2011 edition was published on 8/2/12.
I'll wait a few weeks and order it then (£55 or €67 Sad)
By:
truehoncho
When: 12 Jan 13 21:56
If it were me Koo, I would look to breed something that will get a mile plus and train on. Its ok to get a 2yo but so many of them dont do much after (especially the likes of Kheleyf etc). I would rather not put something in training as a 2yo if I thought it had a good chance of running until its 6 or 7. Many horses are pushed on as 2yo's and it ruins their chances of reaching its true level of ability. Trainers feed them hard and often to get them into shape and create stomach problems for the future and push them too hard on the gallops causing injuries and souring horses. So here are my suggestions for 3yo plus types (all well under £10k):
Shirocco
Dubai Destination
Nayef
Sakhee
Sinndar
Medicean (at £10k is a cheap stallion)


and a couple of unproven ones:
Yeats
Fame and Glory
By:
ovalu
When: 12 Jan 13 22:40
Kincsm if you got a chance could u suggest a stallion in Ireland for my mare  Veliyka, she is unraced but she's on the pedigree query site, thanks
By:
proxygene
When: 12 Jan 13 23:52
Veliyka

Unsolicited I know, purely stats based, Ireland
By:
proxygene
When: 12 Jan 13 23:54
less than 15k Euro

Azamour
Dylan Thomas
Kodiac
Intense Focus
Roderic O'Connor
Footstepsinthesand
By:
kincsem
When: 13 Jan 13 00:11
ovalu
Kincsem if you got a chance could u suggest a stallion in Ireland for my mare  Veliyka, she is unraced but she's on the pedigree query site, thanks

No problem.  It might take a week.  Do you want to spend €10 or €100,000?
She seems to be stamina bred, but speed wins races.

At the moment I'm gathering the AEIs of all European and USA sires I can lay my hands on.  My idea is to find the pedigrees with the highest AEI (AEI=average earnings index = average prizemoney won by a sire's offspring / average for all runners.)  A very good sire's runners will earn about four times the average, a poor sire's runners down around 0.3 of average.
Other things I'm working on are average winning distance of a sire's offspring, and likely going preferences of offspring.  I want to be ready for the flat season.  It's my time to waste. Blush

Some people would only be interested in the stallion's AEI, but I would like to know also what the sire's folks were like.

My interest is pedigrees and betting on the flat.
I have no connection with the breeding industry.
I don't claim to be an expert.
I will give reasons for my picks.
By:
kincsem
When: 13 Jan 13 02:48
Ovalu
Kincsm if you got a chance could u suggest a stallion in Ireland for my mare  Veliyka, she is unraced but she's on the pedigree query site, thanks


I've looked at all the Irish stallions.

A possible is Kodiac by Danehill-Rafha (fee €7000, Tally-Ho Stud, Mullingar).  Rafha is the dam of Invincible Spirit, a successful and expensive sire.
Byron is another possible (fee private but was €2,500, Woodlands Stud, Co Galway).
They both have a few runners rated over 100.
Duke Of Marmalade was slightly interesting, but a €12,500 fee, and no runners over 100 is not so nice.
Baltic King is a maybe.  He ran as a 7-y-o.  He is at stud since 2008, fee €3000, again Tally-Ho Stud (I swear this is coincidence).  He has one runner over 100. He has Sadler's Wells full sibling, Fairy King, in his 2nd generation, which would give a 3x3 duplications of full brothers.  That might be too close.

A problem with your mare is she has Sadler's Wells close up in her pedigree, so that rules out twenty three Irish sires by Sadler's Wells and the many others that are his grandsons.
I notice Veliyka has a similar pedigree to Myth To Reality, dam of sire Whipper (both by Sadler's Wells out of a Mill Reef mare.)  Whipper is by Miesque's Son, a son of the great mare Miesque by Nureyev.  Fwiw Byron has Nureyev in his pedigree (but not Miesque Happy)  Duke Of Marmalade also has Nureyev but further back.

That is as much as I can do.  I could recommend expensive sires based on their results.  They have failures too.
By:
midas7
When: 13 Jan 13 12:12
Great thread and  very interesting for an owner like myself to read the thoughts of so many informed/astute contributors. For me this is what a forum should be about. Educational/balanced/people trying to help others,what a difference from the usual slagging,nonsense spoken on other forums,keep it up please!!

Koo I hope you appreciate the input you are getting and best of luck with whatever direction you go too.By the way we have something in common in that we both use Danny Cook-very nice guy/good jockey who provides great feedback on the horses performance!!
By:
Koo....
When: 13 Jan 13 12:17
Yes, enjoying all the input.  I read this forum quite alot anyways, but obviously alot the talk is geared to commercial stallions and owners making a profit.

Theres so many ways of thinking its hard to determine which way you want to go.  And enough sires to give you alot of options.
By:
Koo....
When: 13 Jan 13 12:30
A good friend of mine has 2 mares and he has chosen Champs Elysees.  His thinking your buying into powerful bloodlines being a full brother to Dansili as a sire and other fabulous racemares.  Not bad at 5k, i thought he stood higher so dismissed a bit.

The sires i like so far. 

Mount Nelson to add a bit of size and get a dual purpose type into the smaller mares as advised above. 
Notnowcato for similar reasons, his 3yo's did really well this year
Sakhee has had some top class runners and again gets 3yo's if thats the way i want to play it.
Haafhd if i want to keep costs down with a bigger mare as the ones ive seen of him can be a bit smaller as someone said on here
Pastoral Pursuits if i want to chance something a bit racier and try and get a 2yo winner for the mares page looking into the future.


Still not ruling anything else out as the other owners of some of the mares havent decided either and if they need my mare to make a deal work then id have to think about their choices as well.
By:
Koo....
When: 13 Jan 13 12:31
I like Sakhee tho, cos hes cheaper as well  :)
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