KEITH JOHNSTONE PITCH CLEARANCE AGT

going back to the post by unbiased at the bottom of page one [ again ] that fees should be graded according to high and low numbers , this was put on the table by the negotiating team in the early discussions but was totally dismissed as a non starter by the racecourse representatives.
yes keith has looked after number one , of course he has ,but he has also looked after every other registered bookmaker including myself. those that sit back and moan that things could have turned out better need to think hard as to what they did to preserve their future which would have dissappeared in two weeks from now.it wasn't a joke threat that their pitches were to be taken away it was reality.

anyway , back to the reason for this thread , keith has put some 70% of his pitches up for sale to thin out his numbers. he sold four in the first few hours including the cheltenham centaur which went in minutes [ so must have been a bargain ].
anyone with poor pick numbers almost anywhere can now buy a good number.
keith has made his money from bookmaking on the racecourses and being good at it and reinvesting in quality.

REGIT,DONT BLAME U FOR SWERVING BEVERLEY,IVE HEARD THE SIGNAL FOR ARBING IT ALL BACK ON HERE IS QUITE POOR

bant53 15 Aug 12 23:13 
When will practitioners in the on-course bookmaking industry realise and accept that they are not immune to changes caused by the laws of economics and the actions of external influences. In all industry sectors change is constantly taking place as new trading methods evolve, IT develops, commercial terms are reviewed and revised, property rights are established and formalised, and above all the fundamental law of supply and demand dictates and alters the viablity of the individual participant business. Why on earth, when so many other types of businesses in sectors such as manufacturing and retailing have had to face up to the consequences such changes, do some on-course bookmakers seem to believe that they should be a protected species.


a top class post here

ADGE,QUITE AN ADMISSION ON YOUR BEHALF"YES KEITH HAS LOOKED AFTER NO1,OF COURSE HE HAS"

tim just checked had 18% of turnover back on here.profit on here 1304.15(comm 29.15).greened up every race.profit after exes £940 on day.i will get the hang of this game eventually.

But what could your profit have been if you hadn't stuck it back on here or bet so close to the exchange? Your statement is typical of 90% of the ring today -  clueless

What the arbers fail to understand is that 10 years ago that £940 would have been double and more, yes times change as has already been said on this thread  but some of the blame lays at the door of the bookmakers themselves (mostly arbers now) who have decimated the margins for those who remember a time when there was a margin

yes rr ,
my position was very similiar...bet to a good percentage and had nothing back on here. lost 1160 on one race[ due to 100 e.w. the 2nd and 200 e.w. the third ].
the net result was i lost 920 after expenses. could have used the exchange and showed a profit but didn't so who's right ?

but i will be there today

RR YOUR WASTING YOUR TIME,THE FUNNY THING IS THAT REGIT WOULDNT LAST FIVE MINUTES WITHOUT THE MACHINE,THE WORD "CLUELESS" WOULD BE QUITE APT

What hasn't been mentioned on here is that in any other line of business sharp practice collude call it what you like goes on to protect the profits of that industry to a certain extent.........  Racecourse Bookmaking must be the only industry that I know where the very people involved seem to go out of their way to decimate margin and reduce profits within...... yes we all know the arguments around the machine e.t.c.........   the arbers just care about themselves and trying to get their 5p e.t.c....... embarrass the public saying that's gone now when it disappears from the exchange e.t.c......

To survive what is needed is a reduction in the ring numbers and a cull in the arbers

And then agree a sensible margin (not excessive) to bet to......

rr im not sure this 'agreeing percentages to bet to 'is legal or moral .i believe 3 % a runner was attempted yesterday !!

Dm -, it goes on it other business's..  Good to hear some are at least starting to realise the situation

and i beieve prosecutions for price fixing follows

sadly at the moment the betting ring is festooned with flimpers and snide eachway terms at every opportunity, disconect their dongle and 7/8ths would go home . for example only last saturday my wife was helping me out for the day [ i hasten to add she has never been on the computer for me in her life ] and yes we were bigger than the bandit on many runners all afternoon but that didn't bother me as business was very good . however what did give me the hump was when a so called "bookmaker" asked me for a 3300/100 and it was 22.0 on here' and to top it up he was 1/6th on the places .imo the commision agents who want to go out and bet to the bone and get their £75 a day have destroyed it for those who want to stand a few horses and get a few quid ! what the flimpers don't understand is when they are w**king their field money off on here they are giving all their value away but sadly you can't talk to blocks of wood !!!!

^

at least he never asked for a 1000/90

the one's he talking about , corbie , don't know what fractions mean

fair point adge.

most annoying, at BAGS meetings, ie winter and 1 off A'W meetings, where incidentally Ladbrokes have give up, another major firms rep pulls the front 3, OK its a free market, but it would be acceptable if they were playing with their own money.

greyhound BAGS and Irish racing regularly bet 5% per runner,  no screams from the press, if we get big margins, ie 2% per runner, were f******g the public.

SPOT ON FLASH

BARRY CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG,BUT WHEN BETFAIR FIRST APPEARED DIDNT U ONCE APPEAR ON TV SAYING THAT U WOULD TAKE A CHUNK ON A HORSE THEN BACK IT BACK ON HERE BECAUSE THE PUNTERS WANT "READIES" OR WAS THAT JUST A BAD DREAM OF MINE????????????????????

I certainly did about 10 years ago, why whats the problem?

barry ' you know who i am cos i bet nxt to u at n'market and sid is always trying to ponce an apple of me , i rekon 8 out of 10 of them have got the exchanges daubed all over their mush and to top it up 3/4s of them you couldn't get a £200/28 pre exchange now they want to push their chest out and come up for nothing !they all give me the raving hump going out getting £60 or £70 quid a day is no good to me my mrs is high maintenance

ed whats your solution?

what about bookies paying for ALL meetings yearly in advance

adge
"keith has made his money from bookmaking on the racecourses and being good at it and reinvesting in quality"

keith used his wealth to buy many pitches at the early auctions
when they were sold in lots(DE COSTA)kept the quality,and sold the others.He has as you say continued to "make money from bookmaking on the racecourses"perhaps more by trading pitches.
He is now selling2,3,or 4 pitches at the same track on the AGT website which illustrates my point.It probably helps when you have your finger on the pulse regarding negotiations.
The lad s done well for himself and good luck to him.
He leaves his flock behind him and all i can hear is
BARRR BAAAAR BARRR BAAAAARRRR

mostly spot on there , 2honest , except that his personal wealth wasn't able to buy the de costa pitches [ which individually were worth more than three times the hammer price ], otherwise he wouldn't have split them down and resold many so cheaply and so quickly.
not as bad as certain individuals who paid up to and beyond three months after the early auctions...situations which were hushed up by clive reams

barry ...paying annually,
that was put to racecourses  during negotiations to provide a discount to full time bookmakers with a 15% or 20% saving.
some course were keen on the plan but they seemed to lose that early goodwill as time went on.

Just how MANY OTHER transactions did he keep "hushed up" ?

some have leaked out but many will never be known.
the njpc was a great life for our clive

barry ...paying annually,
that was put to racecourses  during negotiations to provide a discount to full time bookmakers with a 15% or 20% saving.
some course were keen on the plan but they seemed to lose that early goodwill as time went on.

So not only do they want to pay the same as lower picks they also tried to get a reduction

barry d ,fairly simple solution ban all exchange use by oncourse bookmakers with immediate effect say have the ring managers police it they have f**k all else to do barring telling u to take down your umbrella .revert to correct place terms only across the board and when there is a bad % race e/way all books will have to increase the % on their win book to make the figures stack up simples .it would then hopefully revert to being a level playing field only the fittest and sharpest will survive and be a pretty quick death for the flimpers and arbers !also ban radio rentals if you can't pull up the ackers for a pitch you can't bet when i get gazumped by some c**t who hasn't even got a pitch to his name in the ring and then to top it up they are normaly the ones who bet a 1/6th i want to blow a gasket !!!!!

AS A PIONEER OF AVIN IT BACK ON THE MACHINE,I DONT THINK BARRY WOULD BE A RUNNER WITH YOUR ABOVE SUGESTION FLASH,AS FOR PAYING ANUALY WHO DO U SERIOUSLY THINK THAT WILL BENEFIT OTHER THAN THE FRONT LINERS THAT WONT LAY A BET.

SPOT ON 777

factmachine. I do not and never have worked for any racecourse. I am an on-course bookmaker who believes the on-course betting rings are hugely important to the horseracing industry. I am desperate for turnover and margins to be increased and costs tightly contolled but above all I am a realist and at the risk of challenging the elephant in the room I would merely quote with minor amendment from Racecourse Regular's 10.26 am posting "To survive what is needed is a (substantial) reduction in the ring numbers".

BANT,IF U WERE A RACECOURSE BOOKMAKER U WOULD KNOW TURNOVER AND MARGINS WILL NEVER BE INCREASED AS LONG AS WE HAVE EXCHANGES,IF U TRIED TO IMPLEMENT IT THEN ONCOURSE BOOKMAKERS WOULD BECOME EXTINCT FAR QUICKER THAN AT THE MOMENT,AS FOR REDUCTION IN RING NUMBERS,AGAIN YOU DONT HAVE TO BE A BRAIN SURGEON TO WORK OUT WHO WOULD BENEFIT FROM THAT ONE,NAMELY THE HIGH END BOOKS THAT WONT TAKE A BET.

just catching up after another losing day at beverley.
i have to say that the 11.36 post from 2honest is hardly fair
"it probably helps when you have your finger on the pulse regarding negotiations "....this is hardly fair is it ?
keith could have listed his pitches at any time whilst negotiations were ongoing and this arguement could be used but he appears to have waited until almost all contracts are in everyones hands and totally in the public domain , so surely  he has ensured a level playing field for all.
all rules , regulations and commercial terms are now known by all books , not just the chosen few.

when would you wish him to sell any he wants to if not now ?

Adge you miss the point he is probably selling now with inside knowledge of what is going to happen in the next 6 months

well from 1st sept the racecourses pocket almost ten per cent of any sale income as their commission compared with up to 600 to agt now..
if anyone with the slightest modicum of intelligence wants to sell or even offer to sell any pitch they must do in the next two weeks or lose heavily on the sale amount

lets hope in the interest of fairness to all that is the basis of his decision

the POINT as you say is now that we have all seen the licences the terms are cast in stone and keith , just like everyone else who has seen and read a licence will know exactly what is going to happen not just for the next six months as you suggest but for the next forty years,
negotiations are not ongoing , they have finished [ and keith in particular is now getting his life back ] , what you see is what you get. it just cannot be more transparent. there will be NO changes in the contract terms either way for the next forty years.
i just wish i could get a ten to fifteen percent discount on a couple of the pitch prices. i'm a buyer not a seller.

Money no object for adge ! Serious questio Adge 'Do you think the interests of the average layer ( i.e those with 'middle of the road' picks ) were at the forefront of the negotiators minds ? The deals that heve been put in place for instance make it impossible for any once or twice a year attendees on premium days to justify such an attendance in the future with the associated costs i.e. marketing fee and the multiple used to arrive at the badge fee. Has it been deliberate to force the exclusion of these individuals ?

Has it been deliberate to force the exclusion of these individuals ?

Very likely so demo, but by the racecourse side, not ours.

adge
are you telling me keith put his trading pitches business ON HOLD during the long drawn out negotiations ?

Its amazing how one sided people can see things.  Has no-one noticed that one of the other negotiators is advetising that he wants to buy top class pitches at several tracks on the agt site?

democrat,
i attend newbury on just one day a year. thata my choice. a choice we all have ,
i don't visit yarmouth or huntindon or stratford or uttoxeter very often either but i think what has been achieved is an excellent deal. we weren't negotiating from a position of strength all along.
see you tomorrow
2honest ,
he had to for a long period , hardly able to get onto a racecourse as his business had to take second place to achieving what has been for everyones benefit. as you will know being represented is not the same as working yourself

in fact , wasnot , barry johnson has invested in two of keith's pitches.

ADGE,HAVE U NOT READ THE ABOVE POSTS,"AN EXCELLENT DEAL" UVE GOT TO BE HAVING A LAUGH,ITS CERTAINLY NOT AN " "EXCELLENT DEAL"FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF ONCOURSE BOOKMAKERS.

we live in a world where no one is ever happy , however good or bad an outcome is. but there are only two weeks to decide if we /you still have the heart to continue.
i post on my football clubs forum and trust me , they are far , far more pessimistic on there

VERY TRUE ADGE ANYWAY GOT TO GO NOW,JUST FINISHING CATCH22,THEN ITS ON TO HOBSONS CHOICE.

barry dennis 16 Aug 12 11:20 Joined: 23 Jan 02 | Topic/replies: 482 | Blogger: barry dennis's blog
what about bookies paying for ALL meetings yearly in advance

What a great idea Bookmakers complaining they cant take or make it pay a off meetings with very few books attending. Answer make them pay for all meetings effectively forcing them to attend ( after all they have paid ) that's got to be a brilliant solution how did nobody think of this before. absolute genius

the intention being it would hopefully get rid of part-time bank holiday BOOKMAKERS????.

last saturday I asked a new face for a bet he replied "I cant bet you the machines down"

He can get his life back after 4 years of negotiating and his buisness became secondry and didnt attend racecourse.The way i remember it he took it upon hiself getting his self voted onto the N.B.P.A by fetching all his staff and mates and bookmakers whom only bet at the points to the A.G.M then ousted our previous president who was already in negotiations with the racecourses

regarding the marketing fee

last night at fontwell we had the tote rammed down our throats all night by thommo and the racecourse,not once did the racecourse bookmakers get a plug,when we start paying these fees will we get a mention ?

i very much doubt it

the b.p.a wouldnt think off counteracting that one jimnast it happend one night at huntingdon everybody just stoodaround staring at ach other ....nannystaking 25% plus in a 4 horse race andthen you all get cruicified for betting to 2% a  runner .....now all the negotiations have finisheddddd wonder whos going to correct all theselittle tricks......guess it wont happen

this happend 2 years ago jimnast ...abosolutletly bothing happend i was amazed how head b.p.a people just stood around and let it happen same as it did at fontwelllast night im guessing...

all the irish layers not returning to cheltenham next festival.......the gambling ones im on about.......not the fiddlers and the ponces......

SPOT ON 777,NO THE INTENTION BARRY WOULD BE TO GET RID OF THE SMALLER OPERATORS(MOST OF WHO WILL LAY A BET)AS FOR TRYING TO GET A BET WHEN THE MACHINE IS DOWN THAT APPLIES TO 90% OF ONCOURSE BOOKMAKERS MOST OF WHOM BET ON THE FRONT LINE.

I find it strange that racecourses quickly dismissed graduated pitch fees when it would most probably have given bigger revenue for them.

Jimnast

The marketing fee is not really a marketing fee. It is an extra admin charge / cost of betting.

It will not be ring fenced or treated as restricted income and spent in the interests of on course
bookies to promote them.

When the number of books attending drops as is inevitable in my view the courses may look to waive the
fee, because nobody can pay £300 for example to bet last man in, Hennesey day at Newbury and the pitch
doesn't warrant being there more than that day as it was unviable in the past on other days, let alone with higher daily costs.

Apart from the "marketing" fee (which was simply used to save higher multiples being paid every day by the front line) I think the team have done a
good job and were in a thankless position from the start.

'Excluded by the racecourses' wassy ? Surely not - they want as many books in attendance as poss. to maximise badge fees !! You'll have to explain that one to me. As for adge quoting his once a year attendance at Newbury 'by choice' - most will see the sense in that adge since many others will have done the same at various tracks and why shouldn't they ?- but under the old terms and conditions and not the in some ways vindicictive version that kicks in on 1/9/2012 - why could the marketing fee not have been pro rata'd by attendance ? And yes I remain unconvinced by the cases made here for graduated badge fees and quoted racecourse intransigence on this topic. I find the posting regarding how the voting on of individuals onto the N.B.P.A most interesting but I am sure others might see the fait accompli differently. Adge - no need to wear your 'new hat' all the time you know - and I'm not talking about the stetson !!!!!

the truth hurts, as usual anonymous posters making statements about on-course bookmakers are puzzling.

I can assure you I dont know these back line bookmakers that lay decent bets, certainly not in the south, unless they have a massive hedging advantage.

BARRY,MY NAME IS TIM BROWN,I INTRODUCED MYSELF TO U AT ROYAL ASCOT(U MIGHT REMEMBER I ASKED WERE U THE BARRY DENNIS THAT POSTED ON HERE?)AND I CAN ASSURE U MOST RINGS THAT I HAVE BET IN(MAINLY THE NORTH&THE MIDLANDS)THE PUNTERS HUNTING FOR VALUE THAT WANT TO GET A HALF DECENT BET ON CERTAINLY DONT BET WITH THE FRONT LINE BOOKMAKERS,BUT I THINK YOUR WELL AWARE OF THAT FACT ALREADY.

Ian p
SPOT ON

This winter probably 6 to 8 books tatts midweek all using exchanges,others cant compete.ALL paying 5 times addmission = roughly £600-£700 to racecourse.Cant understand racecourse logic varying badge fees NON STARTER?
£600- £700 TO RACECOURSE and you wonder why loud speaker man not playing.

demo - you'll just have to take my word for it.  When the racecourses realised there was no pot of gold their stance changed completely.  One racecourse even said in a meeting that they only cared about the bookmakers that want to come to every meeting (when it was pointed out how unfair the marketing fee was on those bookmakers whose picks are only any good for 1 or 2 days a year).

I hear what you say wassy - I know you and I have different views regarding if the negotiating body had included individuals whose pitches were lower down the pecking order whether the outcome might have been different or issues such as this pursued more vigorously.

Some interesting facts coming out !!  Wassy why did our reps accept the marketing fee when they knew it was unfair for a large number of pitch holders ?

It would be better to ask one of those in the room IanP, rather than what I have heard second hand.  I can say that the marketing fee was not just accepted, it was argued long and hard against but we could not get it removed.  We are not happy with the outcome and nor are the racecourses so I guess a compromise has been reached by both sides.

As I said, there is always a lot said on forums and rumours are circulated.  Best to get answers from the horse's mouth.

Mr. Ed, The talking horse!

Google : http://youtu.be/WLR4iZJLgc4

been away a couple of weeks and see nothing's changed,those who have paid 2 bob trying to get their pitches dramatically increased in value and at the same time dramatically devalue those who have paid a premium,have a nice day everyone.

YEP WHAT WERE THOSE POLL TAX RIOTERS THINKING

tim i will meet you in your village betting shop next week.just let me know the time and day that fits in with your busy schedule phil

OK

Banning the machine from the ring would be a start...would have to keep the money in the ring= more money around or am I missing something??

courselayer and johnny w

thanks for the replies regarding the marketing fees.

supply and demand applies to every business

when i first moved into the village were i still live many moons ago
there were 13 pubs and clubs and all seem to have good houses
as time went by some seemed to fail but there was always a queue of people willing to take it on
despite ever increasing purchase prices and overheads.
the state of play at the present time is 4 open 1 of which has just reopened
after being closed for 2 years and 1 that has been closed for 3 years standing empty and vandalised
all the rest have been converted into private houses.
the four that are open are trading to various degrees of survival
people comment that prices are too dear and when you go out theres no atmosphere and not many about even at weekends.
mid week is total non starter as thats totally dead.
all are up for sale and have been for ages no takers even at knock down prices.
sounds a bit like the betting ring

13 pubs and clubs in one village christ it must have been the biggest village on the planet.

and the noisyist.

valueman...that's the solution providing they also ban mobile phones and pigeons !

seriously if punters can't use betfair say at cheltenham where there's no mobile signal why should the layers have access....liquidity in the ring would overflow..

truthhurts are you the tim brown of hull who bet at beverley?

NO,I BELIEVE HE HAS DEARLY DEPARTED,RIP

its the nature of the beast,u would get more agreement in hell

jimnast i kid you not it is a time span of 38 yrs from then to now
in those days the pool and darts and dominoes leagues and ladies dart leagues from the surrounding villages had enough teams to make the league last the full year round.
now they have about 8 teams in each league which contributes to the quiet midweek nights

Spotted the problem should have made these dominoes & dart players pay up front for the full years away matches problem solved

AGREE 777,PLUS IF THEY WENT TO THE BAR THE ONES ON CHAMPAGNE SHOULD HAVE PAYED THE SAME FOR THEIR DRINKS AS THE ONES ON DIET COKE.

You on course bookmakers should report any racegoer using Betfair (or any off course operator) since raecgeoers are expressely forbiden from using their phones in connection with ANY betting

777 one team fined a fella in its darts club because he was 3 weeks behind with his subs
the dozy lot he used to take them to the away matches in his mini bus for free
he took the hick and dropped out after that it cost them a fortune to hire another one

betfair down today ,pitch prices would soon soar if it was permenant ,overound went up to 23 % on a 6 runner race !!!

and we still took bets dm.

yes dm and your man was not happy,said it had cost him money!

CHESTER TATTS SATURDAY,40 BOOKS IN TATTS,19 DISPLAYING BETFAIR UMBRELLAS,U COULDNT WRITE IT.

ONLY A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE SOME OF THE RING ARE PROUDLY DISPLAYING THEIR CHESTERBET UMRELLAS

no third party advertising from 1st sept.....when do chester next race ?

probably not relevant but here goes ...bet at perth saturday 10.000..people at a small country track (most northerly track) drinking and punting all day in the hot summer sunshine figures were decent field money exceptional. and not one problem all day long..crowd went homw happy after the band had finished playing and a good day was had by all ...............pity this was the exception and not the rule ...but WELL DONE the perth executive ...

Does anyone know if Chester will give permission for pitch sales before Sept 1st since window seems to be closed due to on-going contract issues ?

Dave
I've got to agree about the crowd but as for the money being exceptional?The man ruined Perth Tatts for the majority of Books when he refused to listen to advice prior to building the stand.Unless you're on the wings of the front line or number one on the second line the place is nowhere near as good as it was despite getting good crowds who do punt & don't just go for the booze.The latest move of a couple of years ago,moving the rails towards Tatts virtually blocked the way into the second line.The deal which he did with the caterers where he chased most of the Punters into the middle of the track beggared believe.
As for the entertainment,having those drums on prior to racing when the books were trying to bet was sheer stupidity but the group afterwards I've got to admit were very good.They created a great atmosphere & they put everyone in the right frame of mind for the journey home.I would hope he puts them on again after racing,they were good.

Demo - after 1st Sept Chester get 8%.  Why would they open a window now?  Would you?

ribero ,'my man ' has lost the plot !! doesnt understand that taking 3K on a race at 23 % is good business !!

Since the topic of whether windows should be closed at all wassy is arguable making a willing vendor wait to their detriment is questionable. I accept the 'vested interest' point you make however.

IVE HAD MY WINDOWS OPEN LAST NIGHT