Top ten trainers who know/knew how to land an old fashioned gamble

Greg Chung,Karl Burke.

Bernard Van Cutsem Newmarket 1960's very rarely left the money behind. Don't believe me ask the bookies.

can't believe Sir Mark isnt on here, the Greek fella Promodrou ?? think he's banned at the mo ?
and whatsis name Loughrane...

Michael Wigham

Jonjo.

The Druids Lodge Confederacy are shokking omissions !

Don Cantillon

Barrington Hills shocking omission.

The New kid on the block has been forgotten...Tim Vaughan

Jack and Lynda Ramsden.

I'd have 'The Don' in the Top 10, imo

The thread might be easier if headlined

"Top ten trainers who have never tried or wouldn't know how to land an old fashioned gamble" imo..

Evan Williams
Delyth Thomas-Am I blue

It shows how endemic corruption is throughout the sport

good point scooper,

looks like they're all at it

agree with scooper, I have just been looking through Anne Duffields runners, surprising how many were well supported when they go in...

Gambling  Trainers anyone remember Captain Ryan Price   Findon ... and that super horse Hill House  what a story that was .

Chris Grant

zipper...i remember my old fella telling me a story about ryan price...had a winner in a big race, gambled of the boards, when being led into the winners enclosure, was roundly booed!!

cant think for the life of me, the name of horse or race, but im sure he said it was a biggie

Michael O hare
Donie Hasset

Toby Balding,

I belief no-one has mentioned this great trainer yet !

REG AKEHURST-END OF THREAD.

Cant think of to many Gambles Toby landed,sorry.

Jack Berry

marco botti

Mark Wallace,Jockey change-Kieran Fallon

The greatest of them all, Vincent O'Brien

Founded his empire on spectacular gambles as did Jim Bolger to a lesser extent.

Scooper82  that was Hill House the J/C ordered a dope test  on the horse nowt found. They  asked  Price not to run the horse in  The Schweppes re the public out cry
The Captain told the  Jockey Club not only am I going to run Hill House it will win Guess what it won.

Don=Only mentioned twice previously

zipper...that must be the one...I remember him saying about dope testing aswell so it must have been that, unless he had done it a few other times !!!

anyone remember who trained Ra Nova ?!

and Stan Moore used to ride and train a few too !

Scooper82 in them days trainers could get away with murder
No camera patrol no recording, basically no nothing & all of the stewards were ex army types.

B Swift liked to have a few lbs in hand when having a bet.

Scooper82 one last one from me  In them days they did not have photo finish   and they was some very funny results just rest on which horse the  stawards had back  if it was close .. a true story  no names no pack drill  a 3 mile chase this horse was backed off the boards  .. there off the runners went into the fog nobody could anything  the jock of the  gamble pulled up hide behind the trees  when the others came round on the final circuit he joined in and won the race   you could  not make it up  but sure some old wag could put names up ..

Francombe just tex me and sayed it was him

zipper ....i can only begin to imagine what they got up to in the50s,60s, and 70s b4 tv coverage was properly done

Timeless   dont think so he was not even born  . but  he  (John Francombe) had the Balls  to do a think like that
On The Francombe  thing He was the Best and i Mean The Best  jock i have seen  in the last 30 years  ok Mc Coy is good  but John was fearless  .. give any nag a ride

Eric Cousins
Peter Robinson
Jack Holt
J Fitzgerald
and a lady called Postlethwaite

David "Indian Ridge" Elsworth

Druids Lodge is a great shout , Sir Mark and Pasternak's Cambridgeshire still linger in the memory , nearly won it with the wrong one in Rudimentary , the late Graham Rock was not amused.

Ken Payne

Barry Stevens

Best at the moment Fozzy Stack some spectaculars this season and none left behind.

"anyone remember who trained Ra Nova ?!"
Nan Kennedy-Lambourn-Schweppes winner 33/1

Talking about gambling stables and Ryan Price, I remember the first time I went to the royal meeting in the 80's he had an unraced 2 year old  backed into favourite and won easy, it was in the Demitrou colours, can anyone remember what it was called? And has an unraced horse won the Coventry since?

BBC Grandstand coverage of Ra Nova making virtually all in the Schweppes, a race requiring tremendous guts to win from the front:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_AQ1YNRbiE

Ra Nova was a chestnut whose grand-dam (Honey Palm) was also the dam of Floyd, trained by David Elsworth. Floyd, of course, was also a front-running chestnut hurdler, and the bravest racehorse I will ever see.

When Ra Nova won the Schweppes, I was sharing a £12/week bedsit in Kemp Town, Brighton. I had £11 left in the world, the rent was overdue, so I did the obvious thing you do when you're 22 and fearless: stuck a fiver each way on Ra Nova at SP (16/1).

I love that horse almost as much as I loved Floyd later on in that decade.

Oliver Brady has won serious money,up there with the best of them

Reg Akehurst ~ Particularly if Steve Smith Eccles was riding one of his over hurdles,and with Richard Quinn riding for him on the flat.

Toby Balding ~ I remember Neblin winning the Tote Gold Trophy.Hurdler with a lower UK rating than Irish mark.Toby bought it over here and bang.

The Druids Lodge Confederacy boys used to pull some gambles off back in the day ~ There's a book about them somewhere out there.

Zoe Davidson's Dad ( Can't recall his name )

Barry Hills ~ It was a gamble on a horse called Frankinscence when he was head lad somewhere that got him started  on the training ladder.

Barney Curley ~ Obviously

Sir Mark ~ As above

Zoe Davison's dad (the late Albert Davison) would have considered it a failure if any of his were backed off the boards when they won. His coups were landed at double-figure odds, thank you very much, with bets spread around betting shops at SP, sometimes involving each way doubles. He won a reputed £250,000 when Great Things won at Leicester in 1978 at 33/1.

For instance, there would be a string of zeroes in front of his horses, names, their handicap mark would get lower and lower, then they would be entered in a claimer, where the lower mark was of no benefit, and THAT would be the day. When you'd least suspect it.

In the end he got warned off, but that benefited him, as he and his associates simply ran the horses in the names of other trainers, which boosted the SP. All sorts of names cropped up, from John and Monica Long to Rod Simpson. When the obscure Wiltshire trainer David Jermy died, his widow was persuaded to take out a licence to land a coup at double-figure odds with Will I Fly.

About the only jockey he trusted was Dean Gallacher. One New Year's Day at Windsor Gallacher rode Matelot Royale to win the opener, before he and Davison drove at high speed to Leicester to land the other half of the double with Prince Klenk. The latter had already landed an each way touch at 50/1 just before Christmas.

Marcus Armytage was a rider who, probably unwittingly, found himself landing a coup for Albert, when the apparently unraced Sprintfayre made all at 14/1 in a Sandown bumper in the early 90s. Sprintfayre was down to be ridden by DOUBTFUL in the Racing Post. He was listed as trained by Rod Simpson, but shared a sire and owner with a useful hurdler in training with Albert called Billy Boru. The odds would have been nearer 25s if Eddie Fremantle and I hadn't spotted what was going on and had a few small bets around the Ring in a weak market.

Long term planning is the key whether you are trying to land a touch or aiming to win the Derby. I had horses with Jim Old in the eighties and nineties and if he said one would win, it usually did. David Elsworth could also aim a horse at a target a year away. Oh So Risky was confidently backed for the Triumph before it even raced over hurdles and one of the joint owners told me it was past the post at Xmas. It won 10 lengths at 100/8.

Harry Flemming, knew how to land one usually at Market Rasen.

Screaming from beneath the waves

Thanks for that.Some great stuff in your post.

Sageform

I agree planning AND patience seem to be the key.When you think of all the things that can and do, go wrong, with racehorses.It shows how much effort goes into prepping a horse for a touch,let alone landing one !

One of the best weapons to avoid the dreaded "backed off the boards" when the money's down is to have a reputation as clueless among punters.

When Norman Babbage was having a string of 33/1, even 100/1 winners in the 90s with horses like Fly Guard and Wannaplantatree, even Dodger McCartney was adamant Babbage didn't know what he was doing. Eventually, of course, some unwelcome heavy hitters latched on and the fun came to an end, but what fun while it lasted.

There was an example this week, when Monzino ran away with a Southwell handicap at 12/1 after its "clueless" trainer had run it in a string of bumpers and maidens in which it had no chance under all sorts of female riders, including even Ann Stokell(5).

Reminds me of a famous Warren Buffet quote ~ “It’s important to have a plan,” said Mr. Buffett. “An "idiot" with a plan can beat a genius without a plan.”

But like you say,folks soon see through the clueless guise.

If he has been missed,Gosden Senior,Towser.

Lol at altitude here WF
Sean says yay btw

bill watts had a good touch or two when i was young and i can remember old colin tinkler going down the line at catterick smashing a 1-16 shot in a claimer to win by under half a length nigel was nearly pulling its head off at the line to stop it to win by a head they had it right off

how come veitch never gets mentioned on here

Veitch is oldy worldey nowadays
Antique !

Times have a changed

bit like a few on here

Someone beat me to it, JOHN "TOWSER" GOSDEN, won a few big handicaps and another forgotten trainer, DAVID CHAPMAN who used run up sequences with his hoses, CHAPLINS CLUB.
ROBERT "BOB" WARD, the selling plate king, got the rules changed as regards selling races.
About 2 centuries ago, a Yorkshire trainer entered one of his horses for a southern classic and had a special cart built to transport the horse to the venue, (unheard of in those days) most horse were walked to the venue, they used handfuls of hay as a massaging tool stroking him down at regular intervals on the journey, all this was done in secret and obviously, most of the other trainers and connections ignored the horse, because he was left to look dishevelled and unkempt probably unfit after his journey, the horse won the classic at a then huge price, I think it was one of the PEA****, he won a good few classics during his reign.

A lot of plots fail of course. We don't hear so much about those. The best bets for the professionals are the maiden winners that subsequently become group horses. No "fiddling" required, just point and shoot. Occasionally they don't produce on course or they meet another one of similar ability -like Nathaniel starting off against Frankel- but usually if the stable is confident that they are group class, the "insiders" clean up. I was at Newbury on the day that Frankel won his maiden at Newmarket and a well known and respected owner/gambler asked me what time the Frankel race started that evening and told me it was the bet of the season. Don't suppose they knew at the time that the second best staying 2yo of the season was also in the field and the Gosden camp must have been disappointed at the time to get beaten.

Derek Haydn-Jones used to land some good ones especially up at Hamilton.

The Top Ten Shocking Omissions (from this thread)

R.Turnell
B.Wise
D.Kent
V.Cross
A.Jarvis
J.Jenkins
R.Fisher
O.O'Neill
N.Callaghan
S.Oliver (Mrs)

Ernie Weymes back in the 70's,80's.

Alan Jones keeps them really close to his chest. Must be a very tight yard.

Jim Old in his prime.

as a neverending list shows any trainer who no,s the head from the tail end can land a pot with 20lb in hand, and when some can win just as much by running horses down the field its a great sport to be involved in ,aint it,

The solution is to move away from the handicap system. Maybe have more valuable condition type races for horses that have won or been placed in last 3 runs. No easy solutions to the corrupt mind of many and the poor prize money available so guess we live with it and try read between the lines.

Jim Best (Lewes)

IT SEEMS ALOT TO ME,IT LOOKS TO ME IF THERES ALOT OF SHADY PEOPLE IN HORSE RACING ,

I BET THEY DONT SLEEP AT NIGHT ,

ESPECALLY WITH ALL THEIR MONEY UNDER THE MATRESS

Almost all major gambles in the past were placed by commission agents, a breed that has largely disappeared overthe past 20 years because all the big bookmaking companies will not do business with them.

Therefore yards with a hundred or more horses are viable concerns because of the training fees while weaker outfits struggle to survive.

Pinhooker  your half way right and half way wrong/
commission agents went of business when Betfair and other  laying / backing sites came on line
today   backing or laying you don't need  a commission agent ...trust me  ..lump on

Someone mentioned her earlier Charlotte Postlethwaite. Landed a big gamble at Wetherby with Abandoned Warrior. Had a very decent horse in the mid 80s and I cant remember its name- anyone?

Also Patrick Haslam- many gambles landed in the 80s I recall. Remember backing Hawkley in the Royal Hunt Cup.

Darkie was it City Entertainer?

That's the one Geoff, used to race with a low head carriage if I remember right.

Watched it win a Phillip Cornes Novice Hurdle(i think) under Mark Dwyer @ Newbury 1 saturday won pulling the proverbial double decker bus.
Think it then ran dissapointing in the Sydnet Banks @ Huntingdon b4 running a good race in Sun Alliance behind i think Sherwoods The West Awake .

a blast from the past when the forum was buzzing,

interesting read with some great stories

Phil Kirby?

What was the name of the trainer who was called the Selling Plater King . Wrote a book called The Coup

Ken Payne, facts.

George Todd not been mentioned here.

mary reveley they pulled of some stuff they used to like the doubles trebles,  t easterby lately still at it, wouldent be many on a list you can actually back nowadays

Trelawny was trained by George Todd at Manton, near Marlborough, Wiltshire. Todd was renowned as a trainer of staying horses and an intrepid gambler; he bought the Manton Estate from Tattersalls in 1947 and reputedly paid off the balance – £47,000, or £1.85 million by modern standards – with the proceeds from a series of winning bets on Dramatic in the Lincoln Handicap at Doncaster in 1950, which he carried to London in a paper bag. He would remain at Manton until his retirement in 1973.

oi, how many usernames u got on this thread ... lmao

Barry Hills did a similar thing innit

good morning elsie

elise 04 Jun 22 11:09 
oi, how many usernames u got on this thread ... lmao






They are all still here now after 6 or more name changes.

George Todd not been mentioned here.....When i was at school i wrote to him asking for a job as an apprentice,he told me to get my headmaster to send a school report which i did.....A week later he wrote back saying dont bother coming.

Glad as i heard later he was a first class ****.

Jun 4, 2022 -- 4:49AM, sparrow wrote:

George Todd not been mentioned here.

Although i did end up at Manton a few Years later to work for Big John,at least he never locked his lads in the Hostel at Night.

did you work for barry hills acey?

No he was gone by then elise.

ok, i knew someone that worked for michael dickinson / barry, more latterly there was a horse with brian  but i guess you're in the jg / pch bit

what about the other big guy Peter Chapple-Hyam

Nope.

really nice guy, only met him after he'd gone to nmkt but could have sat and ate pies with him for hours, really liked him