Have betfair committed financial suicide by introducing the "new premium charge"!!! Discuss??

we need to stop this big hitters, traders and fast pic boys garbage

yes, they were caught up in the first premium charge, now anyone who has won a few quid is now in the net

when they were advertising 20% better odds they never mentioned anything about, and in 5 or so years time , these profits will be used to plunder your account

RE the ATR/RUK question.

I am in the same boat as Manchesterskytrain, although he is a few years (and a 1000 winner)down the line from me. It is possible.

The £250,000 threshold gives me time, but nobody in their right mind would think that wont come down. I now have no incentive to up my bets, or get that elusive huge win. Every pound I make I am a pound closer to it all being over.

The other way of looking at is is to make as much as I can, as quickly as I can, before I get charged 50%.

Short-termism.... Is it contagious in UK horse racing/betting or the only way to survive for any length of time?!

Has anybody thought of buying shares and asking questions at the AGM?

i remember a few years ago if a ltd company made losses you could sell that company to a profitable company and they could claim the losses, why dont those clever enough take over a few losing accounts with good losses and pay no premium charge, share the saving on the premium charge and both come out happy

john92,
It could be reduced to a £100k threshold the day before the next annual profits are announced.

When you fancy something really really strongly try get a lot more than you want on it at the bookies and lay the surplus back on here. If you are right it should drop lower in running if you cannot lay it back pre-event.

john

if you dont need a big bank and you arnt able to get round this you dont deserve money.

I know, I will need to start doing more of that sort of thing asap. In the past, that sort of venture has always ended in a spectacular winning run (or losing run, whatever way you look at it) that had to be seen to be believed. The result - much larger premium charge and a very angry man.

Betfair are a wolf in sheep's clothing.
All this time they have been fighting for the authorities not to classify consistent winners as acting in the form of business because doing so would have finished their company. Then they think hang on, why dont we attack this group instead and keep the proceeds rather than the treasury get it/or levy.
So they implement the £250k threshold over the lifetime. This just means that everyone who is successful will all fall into the net, just at different times....this in turn means that not everyone will move en mass at the same time.

Remember their integrity unit has the algorithm that detects when people are winning far above average. They haven't said they are targeting the fast pic boys because doing so would imply that they are therefore aiding and abetting this category, instead they say its a cost efficiency reason, if you believe that you got problems.
They could ofc have used a more favorable ratio of wins to losses to determine who were likely cheating others and then hit only them. Bringing the 250K into the equation they are saying they just want the site to be a novelty £2 bet site.

I actually agree with the guy who says the average user maybe better off. If anyone better, whether because they are cheating of because they are simple better are removed then it improves the situation for the others. Im not yet convinced as to how consistent winners' removal will have the detrimental effect. There might be less being matched, but the money matched by these ppl end up with them taking more out than putting in. We shall see.

Regarding purple, they need to reward ppl for matching bets on their site, this subsidy encourages ppl to stick with it and gives a better chance of liquidity.

doppleganger john... ;)

par     29 Jun 11 13:18 
we need to stop this big hitters, traders and fast pic boys garbage

yes, they were caught up in the first premium charge, now anyone who has won a few quid is now in the net

when they were advertising 20% better odds they never mentioned anything about, and in 5 or so years time , these profits will be used to plunder your account


Million percent correct.

now anyone who has won a few quid is now in the net Not sure about anyone elese but £250k is more than a few quid imo.

but differentiating between less than 250K and above, they are saying you are more than a recreational punter....which is against what they say when the authorities want them to give more of the proceeds to them. If BF gave this money to racing levy or the treasury then they'd be no argument from me.

Interesting Piece, just stumbled across this site. http://www.thesocialgambler.com/2011/06/29/greedy-betfair-stick-two-fingers-...

People seem to know much more about this subject than I do, so, may I just ask are betfair telling the truth when they say the proposed PC changes will affect only 0.01 % of their customers?

looking at bsp returns lately,awfull lot of red marked up,paying less than the bookie,looking like the tote these days

they say its 500 out of 3.8mill

i know of about 4 it will effect..

The vast majority of users will carry on as usual.  I wont be paying the 50% / 60% premium charge, so a few people like me will close their accounts.  Some might change their mode of operation, but I am not dishonest enough to spread my betting across a range of new accounts and avoid the 60% tax.

I think it's 0.1%, but when asked about the details of these "pricing adjustments" in the q and a following the announcement of the results, David Yu would not divulge any details... 3 times questions were asked but they were batted away with BS answers...

Sean

Betfair claim to have 3.8 million registered users. Whenever they use the term "active user", that simply means at least one bet placed during the specified period.

So someone who opened an account 3 years ago, placed a couple of bets then never returning.... they are an active user according to Betfair.

If a reasonable definition of active user was determined, then who knows what percentage of those would be affected.

It looks to me as though the exchange model is flawed tbh. As has been said the muggs lose,but very little of it goes to BF,whereas if they back with a bookie then they pocket the lot. So,as has also been said,they are gradually morphing into a bookmaker.

4 ysc?? i'm affected wasn't b4...most i know are affected. i would say there are 100 people i know affected....reckon the number is nearer 5000

ive got 17 of the 3.8 mill

andy that is complete guesswork.You know of 100 so there must be 5000

andy you cant be classed as "affected" when you wear primark clothes and drive a daewoo matiz..

ysc

only people exempt from the new oc charge who are long term FTers are people who have had big losing runs in their account history or those who haven't won £250k...which one you fall in?

Thanks for all the replies.
I'm still a bit uncertain about the percentages, but, whatever way, it seems about 99% or more of "users" will NOT be affected.
I'm pretty sure I'd be lumped into this majority "loser-user" group, though, historically, I've taken more out of my petty btfr account than I've ever deposited.
And, before anyone of the 0.01% or 0.1% winners, who seem to have plenty of time for forum activity,asks, I ain't a-working for btfr and don't even like them. I reckon they fkd the game right up.

my acc aint yet won 250k andrew... ;)

Blogger: TRD.Racing's blog
andy that is complete guesswork.You know of 100 so there must be 5000

correct pure guesswork...but there are roughly 70-80 or so track players i know, another 100 or so shop/home players, many of whom will meet this criteria...horse racing is a minority sport so there will be loads of sports traders who have won £250k...then you've got fellas from other countries and pro gamblers etc etc

500 is surely a conservative estimate.

how many paid premium charge before>>>

i know there are stacks of people like me who never did who now will!!!!

i was on 34.6% btw comm charge -

andy how much of your winnings has your prospective thai bride had from you?

tar

warrea, is andyl's real monniker lee  ?

no..his real name is andy l...

warra thanks

If you are on 34.6% now, you wont be paying anything for a while after the 18th,

Warrac****
ive got 17 of the 3.8 mill

17!!! Surely a miscount? Is ppking's record be under threat?

How many do you see on this page?

https://account.betfair.com/regpay-myaccount/premiumcharge/summary.html

1


comm...he prob hasnt calculated it correctly...34% will be his total charges %...

if it isnt he will be paying 10-40 is 40% charge innit

My Total Charges are 22.82 and I still have to win a little chunk before I will be faced with it.

Only 1? Why aren't they linked?

Don't you have one that has a net loss after a blip, that you could ask them to add to the current one so you have less chance of PC?

hope you're right commander i really do....i know you're better than me on these type of things but i really have been told i jump straight into the 40% band...

ive no worries as yet rollo  ;)

comm ..with respect the current charge % isnt what they go for off for the new calculation...its total charges divided by gross profit..or is that what your goin off?

andy

divide your total charges by your gross p&l and post the answer

If you have an old account with a blip on that makes it a net loser, you can get that loss back by not paying PC on future wins, if it's linked. Like people now are paying PC for what they won in the past, losses can be recovered, in effect.

Someone earlier today pointed out that one of Betfairs original slogans was "winners always welcome".Now that has been quiely dropped.Might as as well call themselves Baldy.

0.346 wazza....

if it isnt he will be paying 10-40 is 40% charge innit.... Spot on.

Most people will fall in his camp.

If he has paid over 34 he should have some scope to win before the charge kicks in, unless he has it off between the 21st June to the 17th July.

"Winners always welcome , we love to make 60% that we couldnt make ourselves " could be the new one.

only 1 solution got to play "tight and disciplined" with minimal expenses imho

andyl   
0.346 wazza....

you are apying 40% then..[:cry:]

Multiply the gross profit by 5.4% (40-34.6) to see how much they have decided they want from what you have won in the past. Then at least 40% of all future winnings.

andy

go to     terms.betfair.com
when you log in you will be given a statement of your full net profits and payments and how much you can make before the charge hits you after 18th july

and tell warrack if theres any commas in the numbers

Hi

I'm not a Horse Racing man, but a Tennis freak.  I have seen that liquidity has gone up quite drastic with the purple site today compared with before. So, good news there.

But, what about the horse racing?  Any changes seen since the announcement yesterday?

Gr

daint bite henke..to many rabid dogs on bf.

Seminal moment methinks.

Trouble is I'm not at all sure in what direction.

been to terms.betfair.com.....highlighted in yellow that im in the 40%
but then goes on to say i need to win over 200k before it kicks in........DONT GET IT?

One door closes another one will open. If people were only winning because of a time advantage then not really got any sympathy. If people are so talented they will use their undoubted skills and apply them to another field.

strange that one broadsword as it wont open unless your eligable..

As of 20th June 2011, had you always incurred Premium Charges at 40%, you would be considered to have generated total charges of £********.00 which is equal to 52.9% of your lifetime gross profits at this time. Therefore, you will not incur Premium Charges until you have won at least 204966.76GBP before commission

go on the portal link...whats your gross lifetime profit and whats total charges?

Not happy at all. its the purple site for me after the 18th. i dont do much in running anymore as the golf comes first (went round in 72 last week - felt like i'd won the open) so hopefully it wont affect me too much. If I win 3K in a week then I prob win 10 and lose 7 to make my wages. Theyre already getting over £300 out of me and now they want half... me no think so...my old amigos.

I could understand if Betfair had imposed a surcharge on big in-running winners as they have nowhere else to go (so marketcan bear it) and they are likely to have been using a time advantage on the average punter (arguably moral backing) but hitting everyone who profits must hit liquidity and thus ultimately Betfair profits. Why would anyone faced with 60% charge do an ordinary bet or lay here?
Personally despite having a profit of £6k over last year, I'm still over £30k down on Betfair lifetime. So even if I continue my current profit rate (that's probably a big if), I'll be 103 before I hit £250k lifetime level!

it only effects 1 in every 1000

who gives a shyte
well done betfair

635...211 =33.24%

Zealot reflecting the UK attitude perfectly,hasnt changed in centuries,the peasants are still revolting.[;)]

broadsword   
635...211 =33.24%

your gross profit is £635,000 and total charges £211,000?

u won 250k broady

broadsword
 
As of 20th June 2011, had you always incurred Premium Charges at 40%, you would be considered to have generated total charges of £********.00 which is equal to 52.9% of your lifetime gross profits at this time. Therefore, you will not incur Premium Charges until you have won at least 204,966.76GBP before commission

that doesnt add up then..

Same old business model. Find a niche, hook in the pray, let em feed for a while, monopolise the market and crush your opponents whilst claiming the moral high ground. Then when all is fine, you have roped them in, everyone is happy, out comes the beat stick!

Dictionary translation of beat stick.

A very large, very thick stick, primarily used by BF, which is to be used on snotty and successful punters. Insertion in the anal cavity is preferred, as is the use of extreme force and a rather loud voice which says..... bend over and take it, what ya gonna do?

you would prob take it if it was up the poopenshaften..

its doing my firking head in

Exit only for me tar

yep 635....211

big head

i can't get my head round 60%?? if it's to drive out the parasite bots it's a good thing. But on every other level it's just opportunism and exploitation of a monopoly.

broadsword..

Therefore, you will not incur Premium Charges until you have won at least 204,966.76GBP before commission

so whats tha about?

dont know.....but thats what it says at terms.bf

whats that bit say:


•Lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio = 5.2%

but youre paying imo

Please note that for the purposes of introducing a change to the Premium Charge rate that applies to your betting, we will assume that you have always incurred Premium Charges at the prevailing rate. This will ensure that you are considered to have generated total charges equal to at least 40% of your lifetime gross profits at the point the new rate becomes effective.

As of 20th June 2011, had you always incurred Premium Charges at 40%, you would be considered to have generated total charges of £*******.00 which is equal to 52.9% of your lifetime gross profits at this time. Therefore, you will not incur Premium Charges until you have won at least 204966.76GBP before commission

andyl YOU DON'T NEED TO WORRY ABOUT IT



ITS FOR WINNERS NOT LOSERS

andyl YOU DON'T NEED TO WORRY ABOUT IT



ITS FOR WINNERS NOT LOSERS

In another 25 years (after a similar amount of commission reviews) the losers will be paying another 60% extra if they have lost less than 250k (nap)

What broadsword is taking about is what I was trying to explain.

The "generated total charges" is the mystery figure spawned from a % of all your various losses I presume.

broadsword

As of 20th June 2011, your exchange betting activity can be summarised as follows:


what was your % fig at the botom of that part of the betfair terms portal

52.9 henke.....so im hoping the 204966.76 figure they have given is a cushion before the 40% kicks in

52.9%*

i thought the 52.9 was the fig if you had always been paying PC at 40 mines is 41.8 but my real commission fig is 17 thats why im in the 40% bracket

your real comm generated fig must be below 40% or yuo wouldnt be able to open the portal

its at the top of the scroling bar in the middle of the page

> 10%     40%

As of 20th June 2011, your exchange betting activity can be summarised as follows:

    Lifetime net profits = £330074.00
    Lifetime commission generated = £70771.00
    Markets bet = 36391
    Lifetime gross profits = £414744.00
    Lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio = 17.1%

This means you are eligible to incur Premium Charges at higher rates. From 18th July 2011, the Premium Charge rate applicable to your betting will be 40%.

Please note that for the purposes of introducing a change to the Premium Charge rate that applies to your betting, we will assume that you have always incurred Premium Charges at the prevailing rate. This will ensure that you are considered to have generated total charges equal to at least 40% of your lifetime gross profits at the point the new rate becomes effective.

As of 20th June 2011, had you always incurred Premium Charges at 40%, you would be considered to have generated total charges of £173235.00 which is equal to 41.8% of your lifetime gross profits at this time. Therefore, you will not incur Premium Charges until you have won at least 18343.35GBP before commission

Please click the button below to confirm that you have read the changes. However, please note that continued use of the service after 18th July 2011 constitutes acceptance of the changes to the terms.

lifetime commission generated to gross profits ratio=26.4%

We can't just sit here whining all day. We need to do something folks!

Join the movement against the increased premium charges on facebook group
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Share your concerns with fellow members. Let's gather some support for this!

henke.......so you have £18343 cushion before pc kicks in?

looks like you have 200k to win before you drop back into the 40% ive only got 18k

must be the more you are over the 20% the more you have to play with before it kicks in

thank f*** for that........hope so

the last year has been s*it for me......but it looks like it may have fended this off for a good while

same here most of mines was won before PC i was hovering around 22% for most of the last 2 years as i only bet on here inrunning since they introduced it and all other pre event bets are placed wherever i can

you should be ok  as when you eventually win 200k the comm paid on that 200k wil allow you to win more before it kicks in

finding it hard to keep any winnings lately and was thinking about retiring.........thought betfair had made the decision for me by forcing me out the door.

its obvious to me that betfair want a certain kind of customer off their play list so they can fill the void themselves..their in running markets r losing custom left right and center because people feel they r been shafted by on track players..courtsiders etc..u only have to look at an in running horse race to see its gone to hell..this was betfairs flagship and now its sinking slowly..so to them by getting rid of people who they feel r taking advantage of their customers is their only opinion..where else could u lay a dead horse and make money..only on betfair.....betfair r not fools they r looking after their core long term customers who will never see 250000 profits in 20 years never mind 10 years.....if u have made 2500000 profit then i admire u..i for one will never be PC-ed.

I'm one of the 40% brigade and hardly do any in running. Just got the normal atr/ruk channels. Understand that some people have a huge advantage but surely it would be better to attempt to get everyone on a level playing field than punish people for being good at their job. Betfair already earn hundreds of pounds a week from me yet it just aint enough for some people. Come the 18th I'll be well and truly in the clubhouse.

Join in the protest against the new premium by betfair on facebook.

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