somebody keeps mopping up fallers in-running at 60 or 59-1 on here!

presumably plenty of traders will be pleased to get backs matched at 60 on a short priced horse, as confirms that they have greened up on their much shorter odds lay bet?

Wouldn't think they particularly care that they have given up a potentially bigger win due to in-running, they accept that as part of their strategy

Manchester,
I noticed the increased delay on ATR on Saturday (from 1.7 to 2.2 secs) and it has remained.
To the poster who diputes "rights";It is an absolute fact that Turf Tv are not allowed to install to the public but threre are ways around most things.

The racecourses could get together and start their own exchange (with course bookmaker offers automatically tied in) and offer exclusive fast internet pictures as their bait.

Now I dont know this for certain so Im asking.
But I assume each racecourse signs up individually (or collectively if owned in groups) to the providers of the pictures?
What is stopping betfair winning the contract for individual courses?

FNE I see your point in this, but you can take this to the nth level. not all internet connections are the same speed, can I complain if I am an on dial-up and someone else has a T3 internet connection?

The whole I/R business is very much "Caveat Emptor", I could stand by Becher's Brook on GN day with a laptop and lay the fallers, how are you going to stop that?

They keep signing long term deals and renegotiating them well before the previous one ends

Im pretty sure betfair now has enough power to enter the fray if they really wanted.
Surely the agreements to all 60 courses cant continually out fox bf, at some point there must come a situation where they get their foot in the door?

Bf prepared to enter into negotiations for bloody monmouth but theres not a sniff of interest in this country, surely that cant be right.

Dusty,
You are making a common mistake in assuming BF's worth is far greater than it actually is.
It was an absolute master stroke for BF to get their share price in at £15 solely on the back of a favourable report they paid for.
SIS will continue to do everything in their power to restrict the growth of BF.
By the way,what makes you think that BF are not perfectly happy with the current situation where they can "bend over" the On Course Brigade for chunks of PC ?
It is a common misconception that all would win from a level playing field.
They would not.
There have always been winners and losers and it will remain so.

Im not doubting for a second that bf are happy with the PC situation, but providing the closest possible thing to a level playing field for 1 track if not for anything other than to see what would happen isnt too much to ask of the largest exchange in the world is it, that they love telling everyone that cares to listen makes more transactions than all europes stock markets combined.

By the way,what makes you think that BF are not perfectly happy with the current situation where they can "bend over" the On Course Brigade for chunks of PC ?

Do Betfair charge the course i/r boys in addition to the PC?

Argosy,
Commission is charged at your earned rate and PC (if you qualify for it)is at 20% of your weekly profits.
No addition charges are taken (yet) !

imhotep , bookies and betfair pay sis money to be able to show the races live on there website, with the same feed ( content ) as shown on sis . would it be possible to have a contract to be able to broadcast your own pictures from the course to  your own website, but still to pay the licence required to sis .
why would sis want betfair to use sis's feed instead of betfairs own feed from the course , if betfair had the equipment and money to do so.
is it purely because the bookmakers own sis and want to restrict the in-running markets popularity?
if sis were to be payed the same ammount from betfair as they are paying them now to be able to have the rights to broadcast there own feed, what difference does it make to sis financially ?

simple solution is...dont play 50yds before a fence/hurdle

dont leave money in system approaching an obstacle....

Does anyone know how much they're actually paying the courses to sit in the box's

Rcing,
Yes ,it would be possible if SIS wanted to do so.
They do not.
Why would they want to help BF.

Marley,
How long is a piece of string ?
The charges are from £6,000 to £50,000 per year per Box (the latter figure being paid for Ffos Las).

You can buy a seat in a box for circa £150 a day - they role up in new cars and batter in runners at home - it will only get worse when analog is dumped you will be 4.5 secs worse off on Channel 4 feed - I bet on the phobe on a track and cant get anywhere near the in runners so no point in playing

If you don't like it then don't play or go to the track yourself...

I bet most of the moaners here are exchange shop players who have lost their edge and don't like it!

Pot calling kettle black!

The problem is that this parasitic action by the talentless in the boxes will only antagonise genuine competition. Although regulation hasn't occurred up till this point, the more people highlight this the more likely it is the whole thing will be pegged back with us all losing out.

IMO its for betfair to deal with this issue, if I were the GC Id give it a timeframe to sort it, if they dont then they are profiting from ppl being cheated and therefore 'assisting' and action would be taken against them.

imhotep you know so much are you sure you are not one of these players ? and you seem to have a considerable dislike for one individule in particular judging by your constant personal abuse to what may or may not be their appearance.

I would take issue with the word 'talentless' in the above post. If there is a niche, it will become occupied - simple as that. The people doing the occupying are usually entrepreneurial types.

individual

why they entrepreneurial?
They didnt 'do' anything, no 'skill' is used, the opportunity is provided for them by others and they are simply 'chancers'.

If I were this/these people Id be feeling a lot like Gaddafi right now, just without the support.

Whats more, the argument for the exchange was about having paper trails and improving integrity in betting. Teams using algorithms search out situations where c heating might be occurring. But it IS occurring here, they have all the evidence thats needed....so why is it allowed to continue?

I agree with Dusty's last 2 posts, but nothing will be done.  Betfair will bury  their heads in the sand (BHA-style) and hope it goes away or not too much fuss is made, while I couldnt put into words how clueless the GC are. We have no chance if we are relying on them. (The GC came to our shop before the previous inquiry into IR. They poked their heads in the door for 2 seconds and accepted some **** about most of us only being there for the craic. They also "raided" one track last year, except the track and therefore all the players knew they were coming).

They only thing they are 'entrepeneurial' about is the backhanders to get the boxes [;)]

A newspaper expose seems inevitable but maybe they arent that intersted after the Elliott Short fiasco.

One day , id imagine sooner rather than later , someone will do a piece about it and Betfair .Why they allow people to bet on something that cant win . Cant go on forever that's for sure

Wonder if someone might chance their arm (graham calvert style) and try and sue Betfair for taking bets that couldn't win .

vernon explain what you mean are you saying his laying a horse to fall at 60s

Jim,
I have no dislike of Fatty Button or any other In Running Players.
First,I have already said that they spend considerable amounts of time and money in their pursuit of riches and I do not have any moral issues with their activities.
I have bet On Course a few times and have made considerably more than when I bet via SIS.
Does this mean that I become more gifted when I step On Course?
No,it is a simple fact that when gifted with a 2.6 second edge over the opposition I have a massive advantage.
I don't go On Course very often because I make a considerable income via Turf Tv,Analogue Tv (when shown)and finally I make money on SIS but do not play after two out (the very time when the lag becomes more significant).
Of course,I would earn much more if I was prepared or had the need to travel all over the Country.The simple fact is,I do not.

In Hell,
I would not be holding your breath on anything being aired about In Running or Premium Charges.
Since its inception,PC has never been aired ony Horse Racing Channel or specialist newspaper.
Do you think that this is a coincidence?

hey but do you remember at the big irish festival last year the commentator called the fav fell and it went up at 1000 but it was the wrong horse that fell and people cleaned up on it

There's no justification for having a problem with track players? They are betting with betfair the bookmaker. The fact betfair the bookmaker cover their bets by laying fallers and the like is not the track players doing.

It would take someone from outside the circle of trust to do it . Betfair keeps a tight lid on everything else . Racing post would never do anything on it . Ive heard Dave Nevison mention IR betting and people laying fallers (no skill) and thinks its  wrong .

Think IR betting is the one where there is room for trouble , think in the next year someone will tackle it .

All winners now work (in part) for Betfair.
Befair wont do anything 'till they are forced to, and the GC are too incompetent to deal with the issues....there is a very clear way that a person could get action, but if history is anything to go by the result wouldnt be a level playing field due to money required spent to do it, it would simply be a lock down of all, and I for one arnt pernicious enough to do that (but somebody might be)

Its now harder than its ever been to win anything with ATR and RUK, i will be amazed if there is anyone left playing at home soon , obviously there have always been people with fast feeds but now its a service offered by racecourses it involves too many players, i have years of experience playing with ATR and would find it impossible to believe any of Betfairs new customers having a go at in running at home would stand a hope in 90% of the markets they play, new customers will very quickly tire of losing every market they play and will give up in running vitually before they start, and experienced customers like me will only play until we are regulary losing to the racecourse players and then stop, this can only lead eventually to terminal decline of in running markets.
I am not moaning at all i will continue to play the in running markets i love until it is more likely i will lose than profit and then i will stop playing, the racecourse players will not get money from me, and i am sure they don't care about the future of in running and are filling the wheelbarrows as quickly as they can before they bring it to its knees, i would milk it for all its worth if i had fast feeds also it is human nature to get what you can and greed is inevetible, but looking at it from the other end of the food chain it looks pretty unhealthy situation atm.
Imhothep has said ATR have recently delayed pics by a further 0.5 sec, i have no idea if this is true but it feels like it is, anyone making regular profits using ATR and RUK really must be some seriously good player.The situation as it is now has found my limitations and losing days becoming more frequent, other ATR players must surely be seeing a decline in any profits.I am not that sure how important in running is to Betfair but if it is important i would say it is now under threat because new customers playing with readily available Sky pics will not carry on playing for long the way it is now, and that must be worrying for its long term future, maybe i am wrong and  it doesn't matter and in running will survive well with just the established fast pic players playing against each other, we will see.

MST,
The gap has been 2.2 seconds since Saturday and is still the same at the time of posting (I Check SIS and Turf Tv Daily).
I would disagree that it is impossible to win off ATR pictures.
If I have a Back/Lay pre off it matters not a jot whether somebody is 2.6 seconds in front of me.Similarly,if I want to back one if it gets an easy lead I would not be averse to taking shorter for it going my way or not playing if it doesn't.
You are correct about playing at the "business end" of races.
Personally,I would be delighted if everybody had the equivalent of Racetech Pictures as I fancy my knowledge is well up to the task.However,for the reasons outlined this is highly unlikely to happen any time soon.

imhotep
i am not saying it is impossible to win using ATR, just very difficult for experienced player, unlikely for most and if your new to betfair forget it.
of course taking a position pre race and using in running to lock in any profit or cut potential loses it doesn't mstter too much the delay, but i am talking about taking a position in running from race reading off ATR pics

According to the betfair product development manager a poll showed there were less players unaware of the ir delays than pre-race players unaware they might be playing against others who had studied harder.

This is a true story, not a joke post.

They should take their next poll out of the office...

The person responsible for in running might have voted early and often [;)]

think why MST....it is very hard to "give" fellow professionals a 2-3 second start...then think why the tracks now are full to the brim!! most track layers who came onto the scene a year ago had reviously worked for years in a trading shop....so the track players who had the tracks to themselves now will find it harder!

i agree it's not a healthy situation for IR medium to long term but the problem will not go away...IR demands you work with live pictures to get any semblence of value and those who retort the majority of track players are talentless are deliuding themselves...yes there will be a few

there would be nothing better than to wake up at 10am in a morning leisurely read the days paper, pick some plays out, then press a few red buttons ay yours money and have a live feed for each meeting to play off in your house but it ain't gonna happen well i don;t think it will...so the stay at home punter can either adapt or try to or he can start going to the shops or tracks...either way thats life....

Noodles, surely ir winners would not be guilty of such duplicity that they'd vote they were aware of the delays but unaware of form studiers? Please tell me this isn't so. I am now going to lie down in a darkened room. I may be gone some time.

Im sure eveyrthing was above board, feck. The poll was officially monitored by the same company who cover all the Zimbabwe elections.

It's a shame Stephen Burn cant come on and explain the latest developments because I heard he is an expert in this field, used to work for Channel 4 I think.

Andyl,
I have never referred to On Course In Runners as talentless.
What I would say,without fear of contradiction,is that many of them (and Fatty Button in particular)have absolutely no idea of the likely outcome of a race by their pre race stuidies because they do not do the work.
However,as they are making sums far in excess of their ability,why should they bother.

Thanks noodles. For a minute I thought they had been monitored by spl referees.

imhotep, think dudtybin did. i fully agree. fwiw i wish it was all level but let's face it there will always be people ahead of the game...you get tennis courtsiders, cricket courtsiders, people playing from live feeds in canada on usa sports, it's endless. then you get others who for years have been laying with some edge from a trading shop who now moan they are getting fleeced by people being in front of them at the track...lol...you couldn't make it up!

the position on ir is very clear...it is dog eat dog...a free for all...to give yourself the best possible chance to succeed you should study the form of the horses...work out track/draw biaces...pace edges...etc etc...and if you are behind play earlier/further out to smaller stakes and accet you can't play well inside the last furlong...if you want to then get off your backsides and go to a track...but i promise those who are tempted it does have its pitfalls.

Andyl,
Are you not off to sunny Doncaster ?

Ill say it for you

People laying fallers on track are talentless, and more likely failures in life.

You need nothing more than software (written by more intelligent types) and eyes and a finger (however fat it might be)

...goodness me andy 'dudtybin' eh, you really turning it on aint ya?

maybe another one of these racecourse box players should consider laying fallers at 65, seems this guy laying at 60 is getting plenty of free money and by all accounts using nothing more than a finger,also  maybe some bot developer should write  some clever program to go 65 the instant 60 is offered, might be to late to get in all the lower prices hoovered but might get some of the 60 action which in itself is juicy enough

Dusty,
In Fatties defence,I believe he was responsible,along with another for the developement of Frack Software (financially) which before there were hard lines in Boxes gave them a massive edge.
Like all edges,they do not last forever.

Im just going on what it takes to do the task, Im not necessarily refering to an individual but the person you are refering to it cant be the same person that used to drive buses and s hits himsen is it?

Agree , not much form studying or skill going on here .

Betfair have created a license to print

You need nothing more than software (written by more intelligent types) and eyes and a finger (however fat it might be)

okay let's run through it - the race has started and you are watching it, either on the fastest monitor known to man or you are actually watching the race live with your own eyes, your laptop is showing the Betfair screen for the race in play.
Then, you see a horse fall. What do you do in the few split-seconds that you have to act?

You have to verify absolutely and beyond all doubt the precise identity of the horse that has fallen. This seems to me to be a 'given' and you would skip this part of the process at your peril.
Then you actually make the bet - if it was me, using the Betfair interface I would be about a million miles behind the most talentless soul on the course - but I presume this is the part where the software comes into play.

Anyway, I wouldn't fancy my chances, put it that way.

It,s like a jungle sometimes i wonder how i keep from going under.

still plenty to be made using atr and ruk, think its actually getting easier!

ive actually started playing left handed to make it more of a challenge

I am now using no hands and just my todger !

i tried that imhotep but was backing 6horses a time by mistake

fat todger i think they call it !

....or just 'bollo x' [;)]

andy, if betfair is dog eat dog and a jungle etc etc.... how comes we have much longer bet placement delays on other sports?

Is Mr Wong a track player now heynoodles?

Im not sure what he is up to buzzer... not here anymore anyway

I thought he'd have announced his departure seeing as he was part of the fixtures and fittings

As Clarky9 said previously its a little rich certain people on this thread - one has openly mentioned "his shop" - complaining because some guy, and track players in general. have faster feeds/broadband than them when they have been fleecing(in some eyes) stay at home punters for years and when all of a sudden someone has a bigger and shinier toy than them, they chuck thers out of the pram. YABOOOOOOH. Hasnt a certain forumite (WH) been lauded for years for laying fallers with his quick pics and big wedge. Whats the difference?

I think his plans are fluid, buzzer. Im sure he may come back from time to time.

Duchavelle, I dont think any shop players ever had a 3 second advantage and just a handful of rivals? Most people can get to an exchange shop (and there'd 'd be more shops dotted around with faster pics), but most people cant get in at Lingfield today.

Looks like they missed BBG at Donny. Why?? Not near enough to the finish. ATR as opposed to RUK?

I think his plans are fluid, buzzer. Im sure he may come back from time to time.

Duchavelle, I dont think any shop players ever had a 3 second advantage and just a handful of rivals? Most people can get to an exchange shop (and there'd 'd be more shops dotted around with faster pics), but most people cant get in at Lingfield today.

How many play at Lingers on any given day?

What advantage does Fractsoft give over say Betting Assistant?

if you have 500k in your acc and are 2.6 secs ahead of 99% of others no talent or study is needed...

What advantage does Fractsoft give over say Betting Assistant?

warrack what is the speed difference  and how much does it cost for fracsoft

it places bets apparently at 1050-1100ms opposed to ba's 1200 ish...

think certain individuals are paying 700 a week...

cheers
must be worth it then

if you lay something in win market it can also lay in p[lace market...if you click 1.01 it lays field at 1000...


those using it have payed to keep it to limited numbers..

not many here at wolves

not many here at wolves
TURN YA HEAD TO THE RIGHT

pizarro

have you had a bath this week andy?

MOM SCUBED UP,I THINK I SMELL NICE

click early andy tehre's 's atr feed on 15w

andys doin the cricket atm...

If you have £500K in your account, then surely you must have some talent to have accumulated such a figure....?

How can you expect to get in at Lingfield when you're about 2 years too late? Don't think you'd like the £200 seat fee either...

There's always wonga.com for the £200 :-(

Theres a teesider called blobby who used to drive the 202 stockton to thornaby bus...he had a bowel problem and frequently let loose whilst at work and moved on to do in running at thornaby shop...in 2 yrs hes now a major track in running specialist,has put 12st on,has bought a 1999 ford fiesta,has done 2,435 brass's in 17 towns and is enjoying every moment...well done blobby.

ttt

warrack, out of interest where is/was the thornaby shop ?

the fact is that BF profits go up everytime a horse falls, the way things are currently means BF mainly take 20% of whatever is laid, so thats a nice eaner over the course of a year

a few years ago they were at pains to tell everyone thet fallers sometimes win (usually citing Faimily Business at Southwell) to maintain the moral ground, now they just say nothing

there are many things that Betfair are happy to keep schtum about...i would like them to explain why i should get premium charged for working hard on an ante-post book for Cheltenham for the last 3 months, bringing liquidity to shallow markets and paying plenty in commission anyway. How does that argument go?

Theres a teesider called blobby who used to drive the 202 stockton to thornaby bus...he had a bowel problem and frequently let loose whilst at work and moved on to do in running at thornaby shop...in 2 yrs hes now a major track in running specialist,has put 12st on,has bought a 1999 ford fiesta,has done 2,435 brass's in 17 towns and is enjoying every moment...well done blobby.

QUALITY



BLOBBY GOES TO THAILAND haha

The press should do something on the subject. It was interesting how quickly BF reacted once a story made the Racing Post regarding problems with this site. Within 24H they were giving commission free races, starting forum chats and promising the site would run smoothly for Cheltenham.

The amounts won on here through time cheeting is truly staggering imo... some people set themselves up for life.

MR WONG was at kemton 2 weeks ago heynoodles....if you can't beat em join em

they are supposed to set the processing delay according to the event, well the cricket world cup is not sufficient, in that if you leave your bet up and a wicket goes you cannot cancel in time on sky pictures, its only a second or so that it needs incresing by, you do wonder what is happening behind the scenes

agreed rider but why should the market be suspended at all...they don;t suspend when a break of serve in tennis do they!!! shouldn't suspend when goal or red card in football imo

andy I am taking the long term view.... if you work on your form and racereading skills then you cant be beaten at in running imv. Meanwhile, you lads who go to the track will wonder where all the money/good prices went if we get a level playing field. That's not knocking you or anyone else I know many track players are very good these days.

i dont know if the technology is there to speed up the pictures for television.
but it would be possible for pictures over the internet to be as little as 1 second behind realtime.


http://www.ifdnrg.com/2.0/video/flash/

andyl, I'm talkng about the cricket processing delay being insufficient

Angus offering great insight there.... he'll be telling us something touched 1.04 in running in  a minute though.

Bet placement delay seems pointless to me... all it does is allow those of us that are ahead the chance to make a mistake and still cancel.

depends on the sport heynoodles, you can see the hotspots in cricket and place bets/orders accordingly, however it becomes a problem if you have a bet request up and are at the front of a £30k cue but you need to cancel because a ball is about to be bowled, better to have the option for a second after the delivery (as has previously been the case)

*queue

i don;t think there should be a suspension in cricket but there will be those with faster feeds so maybe increase the delay to 3 seconds...wouyld be a good idea

heynoodles...nothing would please me more than to have a level playing field

nothing would please me less...