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Astonishing rubbish, laughable drive.
Frankel 148
Baaeed 125
Frankel could have given Baaeed 10 lbs and thrashed him 6 lengths.
Baaeed is an excellent top class horse.
But comparing him to Frankel is dim witted and stupid and demeans both Frankel and Baaeed.
Why do people talk such complete tripe?
Frankel 148
Baaeed 125
Frankel could have given Baaeed 10 lbs and thrashed him 6 lengths.
Baaeed is an excellent top class horse.
But comparing him to Frankel is dim witted and stupid and demeans both Frankel and Baaeed.
Why do people talk such complete tripe?
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Indeed. Too premature, and I blame social media. Sir Cecil would probably smirk in his grave.
well said cry of truth. palace pier would be the equivalent of exelebration........the former won more group 1's but they were soft ones. frankel went past exelebration like usain bolt would go past a pro footballer......baeed only beat PP a head.........frankel would beat real world by 10-15 lengths.......remember what frankel did to ST N Abbey and Faarh also........please note the latter was never out of the 1st 2 and was beaten a neck only by nathaniel.......frankel beat Faarh by 10 lengths. it was an exercise canter........there will never be a horse as good as frankel. its impossible.
clearly not in Frankel's class yet - I think the suggestion was Baaeed would follow a Frankel-type 4yo campaign: Lockinge, Queen Anne, Sussex, Juddmonte, Champion Stakes.
This horse is brother to a group 12f winner - be a shame if like Frankel he's never tried at that distance.
This horse is brother to a group 12f winner - be a shame if like Frankel he's never tried at that distance.
Baaeed was rated 7lbs better than Real World before the Lockinge. He beat him 3 1/4L. That sounds about right to me. The Official handicapper left Baaeed on the same mark, 125, so he thinks he only did what he was expected to do. He did win with plenty in hand so he could be a fair bit better, but to say he is close to Frankel is nonsence.
Latest Timeform ratings:
Baaeed 134
Frankel 147.
So that’s just under a stone. Mind you Baaeed should be respected as he looks sure to stay further and may well improve further.
But comparing him to Frankel, or to other true greats like The Brigadier, Mill Reef, Ribot, Shergar and of course Frankel is to actually disrespect him as he is a top class beautiful brute of a horse with superb action and apparently ideal temperament. Baaeed needs no silly comparisons like this.
Baaeed 134
Frankel 147.
So that’s just under a stone. Mind you Baaeed should be respected as he looks sure to stay further and may well improve further.
But comparing him to Frankel, or to other true greats like The Brigadier, Mill Reef, Ribot, Shergar and of course Frankel is to actually disrespect him as he is a top class beautiful brute of a horse with superb action and apparently ideal temperament. Baaeed needs no silly comparisons like this.
Always thought Ribot gets a bit overlooked in discussion of great flat horses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41C79yz8NMU
is footage of one of his efforts.
Amazing he went off at 9/1 against for his first Arc. Should have been 1/9 on!
Timeform summarise Ribot like this:
Three-year-old season (1955)
Ribot’s three-year-old season began in March with a win at Pisa, the only time he raced in Italy away from Milan. He then faced Gail again in the Premio Emanuele Filiberto, this time beating him by ten lengths, and had only one rival on his next start, before his first try over a mile and a half, in the Premio Besana in September, brought him another ten-length success. Ribot was therefore unbeaten in seven races at home when lining up as a largely unknown quantity in the 1955 Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe which was much his biggest test to date.
Sent off at 9/1 in a field of 23, Ribot ran out an easy three-length winner from the French three-year-old Beau Prince, winner of the previous season’s Grand Criterium. Back at Milan, Ribot rounded off the campaign with a 15-length win on heavy ground from the French horse Norman (winner of the two previous renewals) in the Gran Premio del Jockey Club, Italy’s own equivalent of the Arc. Ribot thus ended his three-year-old season with a rating of 133 but was to go on to even better things as a four-year-old.
Major races won
Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe, Longchamp
Gran Premio del Jockey Club, Milan
Four-year-old season (1956)
Ribot won his first three races at Milan in 1956 by distances of four, 12 and eight lengths and on each occasion he was considered such a certainty that his backers merely had their stake-money refunded. There had been some doubt about whether his trip to Ascot in the summer would be for the Gold Cup or the King George, and even though the latter race was chosen, he was given a staying race in preparation, the Gran Premio di Milano over 15 furlongs. This also meant taking on some of the best Italian three-year-olds and, at 10/1-on this time, Ribot’s backers at least got some sort of return. Ribot made all to win by an official distance of eight lengths, though that was considered a conservative estimate.
"Ribot had so far done everything asked of him, and done it in exemplary style," said Racehorses of 1956. "His stamina was established beyond dispute, he had demonstrated that he had at his command a fine turn of speed, he was at the peak of his fitness and there was unlimited confidence behind him. All going apparently came alike to him, and there was every justification for his starting at a shorter price than the odds of 5/2-on which were eventually returned about him." Even so, the previous season’s Arc remained the one piece of evidence that he had the ability to deal with his King George rivals.
Racehorses described the King George as "the hardest race of Ribot’s career". Looking ill at ease on the very sticky ground and needing to be pushed along from some way out, Ribot appeared to have a race on his hands when challenged in the straight by the Queen’s horse High Veldt. "Battle in earnest now began between Ribot and High Veldt, and enthusiasm mounted to a crescendo when it was seen that there was a possibility of a royal victory. Once Ribot reached better going in the last two furlongs, any such hopes evaporated. Lengthening his stride, he quickly wore down High Veldt, and as soon as he was in top gear, showed his true mettle by sprinting clear to pass the post an easy winner by five lengths."
Rather than being retired to stud straight away, Ribot was kept in training for another attempt at the Arc, taking in a nine-furlong contest back at Milan along the way. Ribot was sent off odds-on to become the fifth dual winner of the Arc and, in the first three throughout, was always going well. When asked to quicken clear, Ribot pulled away to win unchallenged by an official six lengths, though the photograph of the finish in Racehorses suggests that the actual margin was more like eight. In what was a stronger race than the year before and a very international one, Ribot was chased home by the Irish Derby winner Talgo, third was one of the top French three-year-olds Tanerko and fourth was the American colt Career Boy who had been beaten a neck in the Belmont Sta
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41C79yz8NMU
is footage of one of his efforts.
Amazing he went off at 9/1 against for his first Arc. Should have been 1/9 on!
Timeform summarise Ribot like this:
Three-year-old season (1955)
Ribot’s three-year-old season began in March with a win at Pisa, the only time he raced in Italy away from Milan. He then faced Gail again in the Premio Emanuele Filiberto, this time beating him by ten lengths, and had only one rival on his next start, before his first try over a mile and a half, in the Premio Besana in September, brought him another ten-length success. Ribot was therefore unbeaten in seven races at home when lining up as a largely unknown quantity in the 1955 Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe which was much his biggest test to date.
Sent off at 9/1 in a field of 23, Ribot ran out an easy three-length winner from the French three-year-old Beau Prince, winner of the previous season’s Grand Criterium. Back at Milan, Ribot rounded off the campaign with a 15-length win on heavy ground from the French horse Norman (winner of the two previous renewals) in the Gran Premio del Jockey Club, Italy’s own equivalent of the Arc. Ribot thus ended his three-year-old season with a rating of 133 but was to go on to even better things as a four-year-old.
Major races won
Prix de l’Arc de Triomphe, Longchamp
Gran Premio del Jockey Club, Milan
Four-year-old season (1956)
Ribot won his first three races at Milan in 1956 by distances of four, 12 and eight lengths and on each occasion he was considered such a certainty that his backers merely had their stake-money refunded. There had been some doubt about whether his trip to Ascot in the summer would be for the Gold Cup or the King George, and even though the latter race was chosen, he was given a staying race in preparation, the Gran Premio di Milano over 15 furlongs. This also meant taking on some of the best Italian three-year-olds and, at 10/1-on this time, Ribot’s backers at least got some sort of return. Ribot made all to win by an official distance of eight lengths, though that was considered a conservative estimate.
"Ribot had so far done everything asked of him, and done it in exemplary style," said Racehorses of 1956. "His stamina was established beyond dispute, he had demonstrated that he had at his command a fine turn of speed, he was at the peak of his fitness and there was unlimited confidence behind him. All going apparently came alike to him, and there was every justification for his starting at a shorter price than the odds of 5/2-on which were eventually returned about him." Even so, the previous season’s Arc remained the one piece of evidence that he had the ability to deal with his King George rivals.
Racehorses described the King George as "the hardest race of Ribot’s career". Looking ill at ease on the very sticky ground and needing to be pushed along from some way out, Ribot appeared to have a race on his hands when challenged in the straight by the Queen’s horse High Veldt. "Battle in earnest now began between Ribot and High Veldt, and enthusiasm mounted to a crescendo when it was seen that there was a possibility of a royal victory. Once Ribot reached better going in the last two furlongs, any such hopes evaporated. Lengthening his stride, he quickly wore down High Veldt, and as soon as he was in top gear, showed his true mettle by sprinting clear to pass the post an easy winner by five lengths."
Rather than being retired to stud straight away, Ribot was kept in training for another attempt at the Arc, taking in a nine-furlong contest back at Milan along the way. Ribot was sent off odds-on to become the fifth dual winner of the Arc and, in the first three throughout, was always going well. When asked to quicken clear, Ribot pulled away to win unchallenged by an official six lengths, though the photograph of the finish in Racehorses suggests that the actual margin was more like eight. In what was a stronger race than the year before and a very international one, Ribot was chased home by the Irish Derby winner Talgo, third was one of the top French three-year-olds Tanerko and fourth was the American colt Career Boy who had been beaten a neck in the Belmont Sta
he only did what he was expected to do
Initially I thought Baaeed looked to have improved a bit in the Lockinge but on further analysis I would completely agree with that. For me, even though still running well, Real World was slightly below his very best last year. Whether that was due to him running a touch too fresh early or he's slightly regressing as a 5yo I don't know. No question that I underrated Baaeed going into last year's QE2. He's clearly shown he's a proper Gp1 horse, but now as a 4yo without the allowances I still don't have him any higher than the likes of Palace Pier as an older horse.
Possibly he can take another step forward tomorrow but comparisons with Frankel are, as COT says, drivel. Regardless of that, he is obviously a standout in the Queen Anne and will win if running to his best, as on past records it's extremely unlikely any of the others could make the jump to his best form. For anyone considering backing him at 1/5 I wonder what they think his true chance is? In my view it's a question of him running to his best level or not rather than an interpretation of form chance. In that situation I would find it impossible to differentiate between, say, a 1/8 shot and a 1/5, but just because I can't doesn't mean there aren't other punters who can. Personally I prefer to see a 4yo prove it's improved from the previous season anyway if I'm going to take a short price. As I reckon once a horse stops improving from season to season there's always the danger of a regression coming. Of the short prices tomorrow I believe Coroebus offers far more value, as for me he has even more in hand of his nearest rivals.
Initially I thought Baaeed looked to have improved a bit in the Lockinge but on further analysis I would completely agree with that. For me, even though still running well, Real World was slightly below his very best last year. Whether that was due to him running a touch too fresh early or he's slightly regressing as a 5yo I don't know. No question that I underrated Baaeed going into last year's QE2. He's clearly shown he's a proper Gp1 horse, but now as a 4yo without the allowances I still don't have him any higher than the likes of Palace Pier as an older horse.
Possibly he can take another step forward tomorrow but comparisons with Frankel are, as COT says, drivel. Regardless of that, he is obviously a standout in the Queen Anne and will win if running to his best, as on past records it's extremely unlikely any of the others could make the jump to his best form. For anyone considering backing him at 1/5 I wonder what they think his true chance is? In my view it's a question of him running to his best level or not rather than an interpretation of form chance. In that situation I would find it impossible to differentiate between, say, a 1/8 shot and a 1/5, but just because I can't doesn't mean there aren't other punters who can. Personally I prefer to see a 4yo prove it's improved from the previous season anyway if I'm going to take a short price. As I reckon once a horse stops improving from season to season there's always the danger of a regression coming. Of the short prices tomorrow I believe Coroebus offers far more value, as for me he has even more in hand of his nearest rivals.
Tomorrow looks like another Group 1 with a strong favourite against relatively weak opposition. Almost a rerun of the Lockinge.
There seem to be more and more Group/Grade 1s on the flat and over jumps and this is diluting the achievements of the true greats of previous years or decades. When the pattern was invented there should have been a limit on the number of Group races and Listed races run in Europe. This should have been absolute and written in stone outside HQ in Newmarket. It could no more be changed than the possible number of Bitcoins in circulation could. But people in charge don't care about quality or lack of it (and the consequences): That is why we have got inflation of jumps handicap ratings, A level Grade inflation and inflation.
Obviously, I think Baaeed will win easily, but beating the same horses again does not put him any closer to Frankel.
There seem to be more and more Group/Grade 1s on the flat and over jumps and this is diluting the achievements of the true greats of previous years or decades. When the pattern was invented there should have been a limit on the number of Group races and Listed races run in Europe. This should have been absolute and written in stone outside HQ in Newmarket. It could no more be changed than the possible number of Bitcoins in circulation could. But people in charge don't care about quality or lack of it (and the consequences): That is why we have got inflation of jumps handicap ratings, A level Grade inflation and inflation.
Obviously, I think Baaeed will win easily, but beating the same horses again does not put him any closer to Frankel.
Hes no Frankel , but , it has fallen for him again in the sussex stakes . Native trail will test him if they meet in the juddmonte . I don't think their is a horse to touch him as I type . I think that Irish champion engagement would be where he's most vulnerable . Travel , juice etc . I don't think he's better than Kingman . He came so close on the heels of Frankel I think he was under-rated
agree about Kingman - best miler since Frankel - the speed he showed at end of the Sussex was something I've rarely seen
Appleby said after the Eclipse that if they met again he didn't think NT would beat the first and second over 10f so said back to a mile and the Jacques le Marois. He's now also mentioned that race for Coroebus.
Appleby said after the Eclipse that if they met again he didn't think NT would beat the first and second over 10f so said back to a mile and the Jacques le Marois. He's now also mentioned that race for Coroebus.
I think Order Of Australia looks value e/w today, will be playing without fav and place markets, but just want to see he is not sweating,like some do from that stable.
All hypothetical, but on my ratings Frankel as a 3yo would've even beaten Baaeed as a 4yo off level weights. Both as 4yos I'd have him 3 lengths in front of Baaeed. I was actually going to back Coroebus today in receipt of the 8lbs wfa. I wouldn't be surprised if Baaeed's level dropped a little as I have his improvement plateauing, but with today's much inferior opposition he's going to need to drop more than a little. I agree with metro john that OOA looks the value to capitalise if the fav did happen to blow out. O'Brien said he's a faster horse this year and I have him putting up a career best last time by a few pounds.
Alcohol Free for me - C&D winner - won the July Cup a few weeks ago - could be a filly coming into top form
backed Chindit in the 3 Plcs mkt.Already finished in front
of Alcohol Free this year in the Lockinge.She's 1/2 & Chindit
was as big as 4/1.
GL ALL
of Alcohol Free this year in the Lockinge.She's 1/2 & Chindit
was as big as 4/1.
GL ALL
Both Baeed and Frankel have an A and E in their name.
Other than that, I'm struggling to find any commonalities
Other than that, I'm struggling to find any commonalities
Baaeed's 9/9 now.The best of his era.Should be applauded and enjoyed
instead of comparing him to Frankel.Can only beat what's put in front
of him.
instead of comparing him to Frankel.Can only beat what's put in front
of him.
The whole point of the thread is about Baaeed being laughably compared with Frankel.
It’s hard to know how good Baaeed actually is. He is bordering on greatness maybe. But Frankel is still a stone clear on form.
Just to get Baaeed in perspective
Timeform current top flat horse ratings:
134 BAAEED
131 ADAYAR
130 SUBJECTIVIST
130 TRUESHAN
129 MISHRIFF
Timeform greatest flat horses:
147 Frankel
145 Sea-Bird
144 Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel
142 Abernant, Ribot
141 Mill Reef
140 Dancing Brave, Dubai Millennium, Harbinger, Sea The Stars, Shergar, Vaguely Noble
139 Arrogate, Generous, Pappa Fourway, Reference Point
Baaeed is probably better than he has shown and may well improve for a step up in trip. He can only beat what he comes up against.
But he has a long long way to go to be considered a true great.
Timeform current top flat horse ratings:
134 BAAEED
131 ADAYAR
130 SUBJECTIVIST
130 TRUESHAN
129 MISHRIFF
Timeform greatest flat horses:
147 Frankel
145 Sea-Bird
144 Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel
142 Abernant, Ribot
141 Mill Reef
140 Dancing Brave, Dubai Millennium, Harbinger, Sea The Stars, Shergar, Vaguely Noble
139 Arrogate, Generous, Pappa Fourway, Reference Point
Baaeed is probably better than he has shown and may well improve for a step up in trip. He can only beat what he comes up against.
But he has a long long way to go to be considered a true great.
Trueshan the 4th best horse in training? that takes some believing.
A_T, Subjectivist is the one where they really lost the plot.
Yes he can only beat what is in front of him. But it depends how he beats them. He hardly won on the bridle in the Sussex.
He was rated 9lb superior to Alcohol Free before the Sussex. He gave her 3lb and beat her 3 1/2L. That is just about what the Official Handicapper said he should do.
He beat Chindit 5L in the Lockinge, 8L in the Queen Anne and 4 3/4L on Wednesday. He beat Modern Games who was well beaten in the French Derby less than 2L.
He may be a very useful horse but he's nowhere near Frankel.
He was rated 9lb superior to Alcohol Free before the Sussex. He gave her 3lb and beat her 3 1/2L. That is just about what the Official Handicapper said he should do.
He beat Chindit 5L in the Lockinge, 8L in the Queen Anne and 4 3/4L on Wednesday. He beat Modern Games who was well beaten in the French Derby less than 2L.
He may be a very useful horse but he's nowhere near Frankel.
I'm hoping that Coroebus will take on Baaed before the end of the season, possibly in the QEII in October. Charlie had that twinkle in his eye, when discussing the prospect, which I've grown to trust.
Hardly a day goes by without the RP mentioning Frankel somewhere along the lines.. but it does amuse me when the what I call 'Frankel obsessives' take form literally, as with Baaeed, but not with Frankel himself, where lengths were added on for ''ease of victory'...
Baaeed's Sussex Stakes win was just an exercise gallop, a piece of work.. almost like a barrier trial.. yet the form is spot on, apparently..
Baaeed's Sussex Stakes win was just an exercise gallop, a piece of work.. almost like a barrier trial.. yet the form is spot on, apparently..
I don't recall any adding on for ease of victory with Frankel. I think that went out after Dancing Brave.
"I took into account the ease with which he went seven lengths clear yesterday to equate that to a nine and a quarter length victory, which at 1¾ pounds per length puts him 16 pounds clear of the pair who fought out second place.''
Phil Smith, BHA Head of Handicapping, after the Juddmonte win..
Phil Smith, BHA Head of Handicapping, after the Juddmonte win..
I think Smith was the only one to do that, and, while adding extra on isn't to my own personal taste, he wasn't elevating Frankel over anything they hadn't rated him to before. On time performance I had York just 1lb behind his Queen Anne win, so even though I don't like Smith's method I wouldn't quibble much with the outcome. However, it would take some incredibly generous add ons to get any of Baaeed's performances even close to Frankel's best.
..but that's not the point, getting him close to Frankel's... also whatever your ratings are only concerns yourself.. this was the BHA official handicapper who got caught up in the general euphoria of the times, that insisted, demanded, that Frankel be unassailable, then and in the future..
I do not see anyone adding on lengths for ease of victory with Baaeed, on the contrary as evidenced by posts on this thread, his winning distances have to be taken literally, because the public pressure to accentuate isn't quite there with Baaeed...
I think a future generation will take a revisionist line..
I do not see anyone adding on lengths for ease of victory with Baaeed, on the contrary as evidenced by posts on this thread, his winning distances have to be taken literally, because the public pressure to accentuate isn't quite there with Baaeed...
I think a future generation will take a revisionist line..
I think a future generation will take a revisionist line..
Of Baaeed? How highly do you rate Real World and Modern Games? And how much do you think they can add on for a one and three quarter length victory?
Of Baaeed? How highly do you rate Real World and Modern Games? And how much do you think they can add on for a one and three quarter length victory?
No, of Frankel, and Sea Bird is long overdue a revision too.. all too precious..
I think I could safely add on 5 lengths for Baaeed against Modern Games, probably more, and as for the merits of Real World, well, I would have him about 6 lengths clear of Side Glance and Indomito, for sure..
Of course this doesn't fit the Frankel narrative.. just look at the also rans in his Guineas.. a shocker..
I think I could safely add on 5 lengths for Baaeed against Modern Games, probably more, and as for the merits of Real World, well, I would have him about 6 lengths clear of Side Glance and Indomito, for sure..
Of course this doesn't fit the Frankel narrative.. just look at the also rans in his Guineas.. a shocker..
I think I could safely add on 5 lengths for Baaeed against Modern Games, probably more, and as for the merits of Real World, well, I would have him about 6 lengths clear of Side Glance and Indomito, for sure..
People can privately handicap as they wish, but that would be an extraordinary way for a public handicapper to rate those races and make the whole thing a pointless exercise.
People can privately handicap as they wish, but that would be an extraordinary way for a public handicapper to rate those races and make the whole thing a pointless exercise.
I thought Baaeed was very impressive at Goodwood.
He was value for at least 5 lengths over the official distance.
I hope they go to Ireland for the Champion Stakes where he will meet the French 3 year old. Surely the biggest test for him so far.
He was value for at least 5 lengths over the official distance.
I hope they go to Ireland for the Champion Stakes where he will meet the French 3 year old. Surely the biggest test for him so far.
Baaeed hasn't faced any of the top 3yo milers yet - Homeless Songs, Native Trail, Coroebus, Inspiral. Not his fault because none of them turned up at Goodwood. I do think he'd beat them all though.
I think he'll stroll to victory at York - then I hope he'll go for the Arc. This has not been ruled out by connections.
I think he'll stroll to victory at York - then I hope he'll go for the Arc. This has not been ruled out by connections.
Had the pleasure & privlege of seeing the Champ yesterday @ Banstead Manor.
Adelaide
Look at the performances of Excelebration without Frankel.
A high class group one winner.
Could not get within 11 lengths of Frankel.
That is 22 lbs.
That is a lot.
And Excelebration would not be long odds to beat Baaeed.
Look at the performances of Excelebration without Frankel.
A high class group one winner.
Could not get within 11 lengths of Frankel.
That is 22 lbs.
That is a lot.
And Excelebration would not be long odds to beat Baaeed.
The only challenge this horse has faced in his career, he was the 3yo and PP was the older horse in the QE2, he’s unlikely to meet another horse worthy of his opposition, over 8, 9 or 10f. I do not believe this horse has any place or intention to race over 12f this year.
To me, the main difference in frankel v baaeed is that while they are both brilliant racehorses in their own right, frankel was met with a few stiffer tests, baaeed is only unbeaten until he is beaten as it stands(he won’t imho but can’t be classed as unbeaten indefinitely). Baaeeds full brother hukum seems like he’ll be confined to the national hunt stallion ranks and frankels full brother noble mission has lit up American turf (mainly) racing, both as group one winners in the uk. If anyone is giving baaeed a chance to be used in the same breath, racehorse wise as frankel, rest assured, the sharp minds of the bloodstock world, are not, my opinion only.
To me, the main difference in frankel v baaeed is that while they are both brilliant racehorses in their own right, frankel was met with a few stiffer tests, baaeed is only unbeaten until he is beaten as it stands(he won’t imho but can’t be classed as unbeaten indefinitely). Baaeeds full brother hukum seems like he’ll be confined to the national hunt stallion ranks and frankels full brother noble mission has lit up American turf (mainly) racing, both as group one winners in the uk. If anyone is giving baaeed a chance to be used in the same breath, racehorse wise as frankel, rest assured, the sharp minds of the bloodstock world, are not, my opinion only.
Baeed hasn't raced against anything near the calibre of Excelebration.
Excelebration.. oh dear, the most overrated miler in recent times, and we know why.. not in the same parish as Palace Pier..
Totally shown up in the Breeder's Cup.. sorry..
Totally shown up in the Breeder's Cup.. sorry..
any other horses for which you'd like to use the Breeders Cup as a definitive example of their best form? Dancing Brave, Zilzal?
he was over the top by end of season.
happens to many horses, you might have noticed.
happens to many horses, you might have noticed.
Baeed hasn't raced against anything near the calibre of Excelebration.
I'd say Palace Pier was of similar ability
I'd say Palace Pier was of similar ability
I'll be surprised if Baaeed remains unbeaten for the rest of the year, unless he gets packed off early.
Palace Pier was rated 125 when Baaeed beat him a neck. That makes Baaeed 126. He's now 128.
Top form but still miles from Frankel.
Top form but still miles from Frankel.
Excelebration.. oh dear, the most overrated miler in recent times, and we know why.. not in the same parish as Palace Pier..
Excelebration was rated 129.
Excelebration was rated 129.
I'm sure Excelebration's amazing defeats of Cityscape and Elusive Kate - twice, go down as amongst the best in mile history..[not]...
A grossly overrated miler, and all to suit the Frankel Fan Club, which they all got caught up in, at the time..
129 was absurd then, and even more so in the cold light of today...
A grossly overrated miler, and all to suit the Frankel Fan Club, which they all got caught up in, at the time..
129 was absurd then, and even more so in the cold light of today...
You seem to know more than the Official Handicappers. Why dont you apply for a job.
Excelebration was an exceptional miler - Frankel was the only horse to beat him in a European group 1
You could take these Frankel critics seriously if they didn't resort to conspiracy theories. I only backed Frankel a couple of times and actually lost money backing him ante post for the Derby. There's no reason for me to rate him extremely highly other than that's what my methods show. And there are many other racing followers who came to the same conclusion. Dancing Brave came very early on in my following of the sport. He was one of the main attractions that hooked me on the game and for a long time remained the benchmark for me for a top Gp1 horse. It was only later when I analysed his performances objectively that I came to the conclusion that, exciting as they remain to watch, his middle distance performances were vastly overrated. Other people still think he was the best horse ever. I would disagree but it's fair enough as that's how they see it. I don't accuse them of being involved in some plot to hype the horse.
It's been well commented on, not by little ol' me, but those with more authority, that the ratings of those Frankel beat were elevated to extraordinary levels so his could be put above any other..
Personal opinion, but the whole business of giving individual h'cap ratings to horses that would never show up in a handicap, is pointless, and horses cannot be compared in different generations or even distances.. The whole thing smacks of a little boy's game.. my favourite is miles better than yours, so there.. and we'll push up those he beat to prove it..
All those great flat horses we all keep talking about, should be grouped at say, 135+... and left at that.. putting one above the other[s], should be left in the minds of those who wish to perpetuate it. Official Handicappers, should steer well clear.. it isn't necessary, and that goes for Timeform as well..
Personal opinion, but the whole business of giving individual h'cap ratings to horses that would never show up in a handicap, is pointless, and horses cannot be compared in different generations or even distances.. The whole thing smacks of a little boy's game.. my favourite is miles better than yours, so there.. and we'll push up those he beat to prove it..
All those great flat horses we all keep talking about, should be grouped at say, 135+... and left at that.. putting one above the other[s], should be left in the minds of those who wish to perpetuate it. Official Handicappers, should steer well clear.. it isn't necessary, and that goes for Timeform as well..
and that goes for Timeform as well..
So a firm that is entirely devoted to ratings/tipping should just give up at the point of hitting your 135 ceiling? Makes no sense whatsoever.
So a firm that is entirely devoted to ratings/tipping should just give up at the point of hitting your 135 ceiling? Makes no sense whatsoever.
When will Baaeed reach 135. He needs to up his game to do it.
Personal opinion, but the whole business of giving individual h'cap ratings to horses that would never show up in a handicap, is pointless
then why are you getting so worked-up about it?
then why are you getting so worked-up about it?
The whole thing smacks of a little boy's game.. my favourite is miles better than yours, so there.. and we'll push up those he beat to prove it..
so Frankel was the favourite horse of Timeform and the official handicappers so because of this they gave him a high rating?
so Frankel was the favourite horse of Timeform and the official handicappers so because of this they gave him a high rating?
I hope not..
I'd like to know why it's thought right and proper to apply a rating to a performance in the modern age, then comparing it to horses that raced over 12f in the 1960's, and sprinters in the 1950's.. ? the whole thing's absurd..
You can't compare horses form like that and it shouldn't be attempted, yet this is exactly what they did with Frankel, to get him above Sea Bird..
The Frankel ratings were obsessive fan nonsense, and yes Timeform and Mr Smith got caught up in the excitement enough to manipulate the whole thing..
You only have to read again what Smith said after the Juddmonte, which I don't think any of you actually remembered, to be honest..
I'd like to know why it's thought right and proper to apply a rating to a performance in the modern age, then comparing it to horses that raced over 12f in the 1960's, and sprinters in the 1950's.. ? the whole thing's absurd..
You can't compare horses form like that and it shouldn't be attempted, yet this is exactly what they did with Frankel, to get him above Sea Bird..
The Frankel ratings were obsessive fan nonsense, and yes Timeform and Mr Smith got caught up in the excitement enough to manipulate the whole thing..
You only have to read again what Smith said after the Juddmonte, which I don't think any of you actually remembered, to be honest..
You can't compare horses form like that and it shouldn't be attempted
But you yourself were calling for a revision of Sea Bird and Frankel. Seems like you just don't like it when they don't agree with you.
But you yourself were calling for a revision of Sea Bird and Frankel. Seems like you just don't like it when they don't agree with you.
Adelaide you could write a book expressing outrage at Frankel's rating - but unfortunately someone already has 
lol.. I know the one you mean. I always thought he made a good case..
Anyway,.. no bother.. cheers..
Anyway,.. no bother.. cheers..
The silly attack on Excelebration really does not stack up.
When he thrashed Cityscape to win the QEII Cityscape was deemed to have run 123 in RPRs. It was as rating that Cityscape had either matched or run to within a couple of pounds of 7 times, not at all inflated rating.
In that same race Elusive Kate was deemed to have run well below her best form. She was thrashed 6 or 7 lengths. It was a tremendous performance by Excelebration and the 129 figure by no means flattered him.
The facts of his group one winning form are not a matter of opinion actually. They are there is black and white, as is the fact that when Frankel won the 2000 Guineas he went through the 6 furlong marker faster than many sprinters would be capable of.
The merit of Frankel is not a matter for sensible debate as his astonishing achievements are in black and white and on film.
But this is one indicator.
Timeform timefigures measure the worth of a horse's overall race time, once all relevant factors - such as course, distance, state of the going, weight carried, wind speed/direction and age - have been allowed for. They usually lag behind form-based ratings, as horses seldom run in circumstances which allow them to maximise their speed throughout a race.
Frankel's timefigures lagged behind his ability, but his 136 peak timefigure - achieved in both the Two Thousand Guineas and the International Stakes - is the best by any horse this century. What's more, he is responsible for four of the best six timefigures of the century, with this year's efforts in the Lockinge Stakes and Champion Stakes weighing in at 134.
When he thrashed Cityscape to win the QEII Cityscape was deemed to have run 123 in RPRs. It was as rating that Cityscape had either matched or run to within a couple of pounds of 7 times, not at all inflated rating.
In that same race Elusive Kate was deemed to have run well below her best form. She was thrashed 6 or 7 lengths. It was a tremendous performance by Excelebration and the 129 figure by no means flattered him.
The facts of his group one winning form are not a matter of opinion actually. They are there is black and white, as is the fact that when Frankel won the 2000 Guineas he went through the 6 furlong marker faster than many sprinters would be capable of.
The merit of Frankel is not a matter for sensible debate as his astonishing achievements are in black and white and on film.
But this is one indicator.
Timeform timefigures measure the worth of a horse's overall race time, once all relevant factors - such as course, distance, state of the going, weight carried, wind speed/direction and age - have been allowed for. They usually lag behind form-based ratings, as horses seldom run in circumstances which allow them to maximise their speed throughout a race.
Frankel's timefigures lagged behind his ability, but his 136 peak timefigure - achieved in both the Two Thousand Guineas and the International Stakes - is the best by any horse this century. What's more, he is responsible for four of the best six timefigures of the century, with this year's efforts in the Lockinge Stakes and Champion Stakes weighing in at 134.
It's been well commented on, not by little ol' me, but those with more authority, that the ratings of those Frankel beat were elevated to extraordinary levels so his could be put above any other..
No it’s not. And the ratings of all the many horses thrashed by Frankel were no inflated and nor is Timeform a sort of corrupt conspiracy fixing ratings of their favourite horses.
Adelaide you sound like a Donald Trump supporter and on this thread make even less sense.
Excelebration's QEII win was quite brilliant - couldn't find a way through and things looked bad but J O'B just waited and the horse sauntered home
''Astonishing rubbish, laughable drive.''
oh dear... major shock to the Frankel Fan Club today..
oh dear... major shock to the Frankel Fan Club today..
Heading in the Frankel direction is something of an understatement. I'm glad he made his true mark today..
I reckon Baaeed is now a 140 horse, only now 7lbs behind Frankel. And who knows he may even be better than that.
Baaeed is in my view now one of the greats, better than Nijinsky, better than Generous, but as yet not as great as Mill Reef, Ribot, The Brigadier, and of course Frankel.
Latest timeform Baaeed rating 137.
Baaeed is in my view now one of the greats, better than Nijinsky, better than Generous, but as yet not as great as Mill Reef, Ribot, The Brigadier, and of course Frankel.
Latest timeform Baaeed rating 137.
Plenty of talk about ratings, It seems people forgetting distance. one could argue that Baaeed is already a better horse than Frankel over 10f, he is not a better miler.
He may prove capable of a 137+ in his next two 10f races, who knows?
He may prove capable of a 137+ in his next two 10f races, who knows?
It would be a minor miracle to get a 12f horse over 135 let alone 140+ he may be capable of doing it over 10f, let us dream!
one could argue that Baaeed is already a better horse than Frankel over 10f
Only if you think Sir Busker is only a couple of lengths inferior to Farhh and SNA.
Only if you think Sir Busker is only a couple of lengths inferior to Farhh and SNA.
They used to drug CDA, Snow fairy picked up a ban for drugs, make of that year what you will.
Bullet Train, won two races from 14 starts, he won 1m3.5 furlong, how on earth would he have had the pace of Frankel? yet he was used as a pacemaker? I recon Sir Busker could have give him a race over 10f.
I don't really understand the point of that? Loads of horses can run sub 12s furlongs until the heat is turned up in a race, which is pretty much all you need from a pacemaker.
glad it wasn't just me who didn't understand. closest BT ever got to Frankel was 9.75 lengths in a mile race
It would be a minor miracle to get a 12f horse over 135 let alone 140+
Yes Sea Bird, Mill Reef and Ribot were minor miracles alright.
Yes Sea Bird, Mill Reef and Ribot were minor miracles alright.
Whatever race Baaeed goes for,providing it's suitable ground,
I can see Crowely properly opening up on this horse to show
how good he really is.
I don't think we've seen the best of him yet.
I can see Crowely properly opening up on this horse to show
how good he really is.
I don't think we've seen the best of him yet.
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