Horse Antepost

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28 Jul 11 18:28
Date Joined: 28 Aug 10
| Topic/replies: 51 | Blogger: Authorized's blog
With the confirmation today that Frankel will have one more run this season in the QEII, a perceived penalty kick race, it has to be said that for a horse of his ability this has been the most safe, unambitious campaign in history. Yesterday Sir Henry said he was "the best horse I've ever seen" yet he doesn't seem willing to let the horse prove his versatility or showcase his talents on the other side of the pond.

The arguments have raged about how far Frankel would get for months but with him now beating all but Goldikova at a mile  surely you have to step him up. Sir Henry already had that chance with the Derby but instead opted for the safe uninspiring St. James's Palace. I remember Walter Swinburn, a man that knows a thing about winning the Derby, saying in the spring "it would be "amazing" if Frankel didn't take his chance at Epsom. I was of a similar opinion primarily based on the stamina of Galileo who's bred Leger winners in England, Ireland and France. I firmly believe Frankel could've travelled in a similar way to, another son of Galileo, New Approach who found things a lot easier going slower against weaker opposition.

The Derby has been and gone now but what about stepping him up to 10f? There is a certain trainer in Ireland who has indicated So You Think is the best he's had and he's had a few good ones. Are racing fans to be robbed of a clash between the ex-Aussie Superstar and the Freak? Yes, thanks to  Sir Henry

For a horse with the name Frankel you'd have thought the Breeders Cup was a natural but apparently it's not on the radar as Frankel looks set to train on as a 4-y-o. I've always been a believer that you strike while the iron is hot and many top horses including Montjeu and Hurricane Run lost their form toward the end of their 4-y-o campaigns. I personally wouldn't have aimed Frankel at the BC Classic based on his Galileo breeding but the mile was an obvious target especially with Goldikova bidding for a unprecedented 4th crown. To think Frankel had the chance and never raced this wondermare is bewildering but that may be the case if Goldikova bows out this year. The Breeders Cup is the nearest thing in racing to a World Championships or a Ryder Cup and it would've be a glorious chance to show America what everybody's been wowed by over here.

For me racing is about the historic races, the big clashes and apart from "the" Duel on the Downs" this horse hasn't been tested and won't be the rest of the season.
Pause Switch to Standard View Frankel - The most unambitious...
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Report neill d August 2, 2011 12:05 PM BST
it is beyond doubt that this is not an overly ambitious campaign imo, one couldn't say it is. STS could have been champion miler, Frankel is already championmiler whatever happens. I don't mind if he gets beaten, whatever he does not couldn't decrease his value at stud anyway, he provides everything the market wants already, that is all cemented.

If he goes QE2, I wonder would Coolmore throw SYT in against him, I think they definitelywould if it wasn't forthe Gallileo factor.
Report buddeliea August 2, 2011 6:19 PM BST
Well my feeling is that he would run in races like the Derby,juddmonte,champion stakes arc, etc etc,if they thought he could do himself justice,why not?? The answer imo is cos they dont think he will do himself justice.Sometimes you have to have faith in those that know more than us.
As for sea the stars,maybe he convinced them at home,maybe Frankel has'nt,different horse,different connections,maybe different distance.

I agree its not overly ambitious,as i said before its the campaign of a 3yo miler,which is what he is according to those that know and matter.
Report A_T August 2, 2011 6:47 PM BST
Sea the Stars is out of an Arc winner and half-brother to Galileo - every reason to think he'd stay 12f. Not so clear at all with Frankel.
Report buddeliea August 2, 2011 7:04 PM BST
Indeed AT.Compare that to Frankels breeding,definite difference.Has got stamina in the pedigree but mum was a 6f.
Says to me maybe stayer,maybe miler at most.No wonder their is a lot of debate going on.
Personally i go on what i see on the track,same as all of us i imagine,and i really aint seen proper evidence to say he stays further than a mile.
Report elisjohn August 3, 2011 8:38 AM BST
an extra 2 furlongs  is a full lap of an athletic track around 400 meters extra , do you think bolt could be an olympic champion at 400 , NO  ,  frankel is a freak like bolt but at their distances
Report neill d August 3, 2011 1:30 PM BST
Jeremy Warner injured there this week, I'd have thought Bolt could, he has the physical frame for it, he also has a very relaxed style of running
Report grendel August 3, 2011 1:48 PM BST
Silly example elisjohn, going from 100m and 200m up to 400m is a bit different from going from 1600m to 2000m.  I am convinced that 10f will prove no problem whatsoever to Frankel next season, he could have just as happily poodled around for another 2 furlongs and still quickened clear like he did.  They are charting a very similar career path for him to Brigadier Gerard and I'm sure he will have a busier time of it next season when he is fully matured and able to recover from his races quicker as older horses can.  That long stride will be a potent force in middle distance races next year.
Report A_T August 3, 2011 1:53 PM BST
Bolt has said he plans to move to 400m after London 2012
Report buddeliea August 3, 2011 6:21 PM BST
One thing i do know,he werent happy poodling around in the last 2 furlongs at Ascot.
Report geoff m August 3, 2011 8:35 PM BST
Burnt his matches way too early @ Ascot.
The way he ran thro the pull up @ Goodwood.Was still tanking whilst others had come to an abrupt halt suggests 1m 2 wont be a problem .
Hes a freak that would have won a July Cup & now capable of winning a Juddmonte/|Irish Champion however we wont find out this year.
The way hes been trained suggests an element of caution with a view to stepping him up next year.
Report PFtrader August 3, 2011 9:03 PM BST
Doesn't look a particularly classy Juddmonte International, particularly as the perceived main danger SYT is reportedly heading to the Irish Champion Stakes next according to the RP.

Come on Henry he won't even need to come off the bridle.
Report neill d August 3, 2011 9:19 PM BST
Report Man From Atlantis August 4, 2011 12:31 AM BST
agreed also[;)]LaughConfused
Report Man From Atlantis August 4, 2011 12:34 AM BST
Come on HRC give us a can we make money on this horse when you won't take any chances?CryWill stay 10f standing on his head as long as Mr Queally doesn't do anything stupid[;)]
Report Man From Atlantis August 4, 2011 12:39 AM BST
Note to Tom 'Frankel won't stay 10f if you start riding a race 5 furlongs out!'
PS might even struggle over a mile (just like AscotCry)
Report zilzal1 August 4, 2011 12:54 AM BST
With the ownership of a great horse comes the responsibility of campaigning it as such, for the good of the sport in general, if they race the horse at 4 then this season can be justified as such. if not , then the public can feel justifiably cheated
Report Rowley Mile August 4, 2011 1:49 AM BST
This is the best best genuine two-sided discussion i've ever read on here.

There is quite a lot to ponder over.

I'd like to start about how fond sts is in our memories and how well he did to win a group in every calender month possible of his 3 yo career bar an american raid.

Something that is quite interesting as per this discussion is what races sts missed despite obviously winning 8,10 and 12 furlong group ones as a 3yo, seeing as frankels campaign is being described as unambitious.

Irish guineas run on heavy ground, the english guineas 2nd was beaten 17+ lengths that day by mastercraftsman.

St james palace run on quick ground, the english guineas 2nd finished second here but not beaten much and the winner of the sjp and the irish 2000 was soundly beaten over a quarter of a mile further in the juddmonte by the great sts.

Irish derby run on good to yielding supposedly and it it killed the currabeg men not to run in it and was won by a horse he beat soundly in the english derby, probably would have cost him his chance of running in the eclipse, win or lose.

The king george, a race won by conduit soundly beating the older horses and the 3yos which dont usually run well in it bar this year where a classy colt who didnt run in the derby won it, chose the eclipse earlier in the month instead ?

The sussex stakes,a good duel between Rip van 3yo and Paco the older horse Boy, they probably didnt want to step him back in trip too far after showing up so well in the derby and ran him down 2f in the eclipse way earlier in the month.

Qe2, similar to the above.

English champion, a race too far re; irish champion and arc campaign.

Breeders Cup anything, no chance, he was too valuable ? and nothing to prove ?


Possibly some inaccuracies there lads but that's effectively my take on the classic career of a superb horse who was amazing at a range of distances, so there were a lot of races they swerved some due to ground and some due to who knows what, but even though he was possibly better or slightly worse than frankel, the horse with the ambitious campaign obviously swerved more races than frankel has/will.

It is important to remember also that in the world of hype we live in, some valued frankel at nearly as much as sts after his guineas win(a few hundred million?), for which he was given a standing ovation with at least two furlongs to go if i remeber correctly.

Whichever horse you prefer is your own opinion, i don't honestly know which i prefer as a racehorse yet but i reckon one is definitely a son of a sire of sires and i know which one i'd rather own at this point in time for commercial purposes, and most importantly as racing fan, this one is still running currently.
Report elisjohn August 4, 2011 7:08 AM BST
sendawar,warning,shergar,stravinsky,d millenium,rodrigo de triano, just some examples of top class horses that find that extra 2 furlongs way out of reach when tried, and i bet you sts wouldnt have won the leger
Report buddeliea August 4, 2011 7:16 AM BST
I am well aware of the ride he got at Ascot,i have mentioned it before,i was just stating a fact.

I just dont get this public being cheated bit,i really dont.Way i look at it as been said is that his connections think at this stage of his career he is a miler at most,and are therefore campaigning him as such,in all the top mile races.The fact that the opposition are not as good is not their fault,and has no bearing on whether he runs further,otherwise imo they would run him in a more challenging race like the juddmonte or more likely the Champion Stakes.
Yes he werent stopping at Goodwood,but that by no means says that he can beat 10f specialists,it just says that on that day he would have won over further than a mile against inferior milers,although when he would have started to struggle is anyones guess.One thing for sure he wont be facing any of them over 10f!!
i say again,have faith in the best or near best trainer we have ever seen,imo anyway,and let them train him as they seem fit.
Never know you may see him at Ascot in the Champion after all(he is entered),but if he does run in the QE11,you will still see him next season,as they have been quoted as saying.Must say i aint convinced he will race on,but i certainly hope so,and over further distances would be great.
Report neill d August 4, 2011 12:52 PM BST
STS murdered F&G in the irish Champion when there was cut in the ground so he'd have handled it.
Report tinkler August 4, 2011 3:56 PM BST
Even if he races at 4 it doesn't justify him not being allowed to run whilst in peak shape when conditions
are ideal. I doubt the Sussex took much out of him especially as they went so slow early on.
The QE2 will probably have a few runners just looking for place money with Frankel winning in no more
than an exercise canter. Why wait for next year? its the same programme year in year out. Its not like
he's waiting for the Olympics once every 4 years. There's very little chance of him improving much at 4 as he
was virtually fully grown at 2.
Report tobermory August 4, 2011 9:13 PM BST
^ Agree Tinkler.

sendawar,warning,shergar,stravinsky,d millenium,rodrigo de triano, just some examples of top class horses that find that extra 2 furlongs way out of reach when tried

Elisjohn, never get why people are so certain horses won't stay, most horses produce a very similar level of form given a few goes at the next distance up.

The ones mentioned above are hardly rock solid evidence that Group 1 winners should be kept to the same distance.

Warning: Ran abysmally at 10f in The Eclipse .Dropped back to a mile for the Sussex and tailed off .The horse was just gone at the game , or needed a break.

Rodrigo: Awful run in The Derby. Goes back to a mile for The St James Palace and just as bad. Had a couple of months off and returned to form.

Dubai Millenium: Would likely have been 20/1 in running for The Derby at halfway if BF was around. Never travelling well and would not have won the race at any distance.

Stravinsky: 8f is just higher class racing than 6f .Every year handicappers bridge the gap to Group 1 sprints. Hardly ever happens at a Mile.

Sendawar: Just not that good IMO , at least not as a 4YO. 

Shergar : Had a hard season .

So there are plenty of factors to consider, very thin evidence to say those horses didn't stay.

Sea The Stars would have won the St Leger on the bridle Mischief
Report buddeliea August 5, 2011 6:50 AM BST
Fair points,and Frankel may stay further now,but i aint convinced and more importantly nor it seems are his connections.
Report dtamutants August 5, 2011 12:06 PM BST
I think that it's not necessarily that they think he won't stay, but that they know if they go for the Juddmonte, AOB is likely to have two pacemakers and try to run the finish out of Frankel. I think Frankel would stay 10f in a normal race, especially at York, but I think O'Brien would love to claim his scalp, and would do everything he could to beat him.
Report ilikewavingatbuses August 5, 2011 2:30 PM BST
yes u gotta admire aiden, loves a challenge!Plain
Report tobermory August 5, 2011 5:50 PM BST
I think that it's not necessarily that they think he won't stay, but that they know if they go for the Juddmonte, AOB is likely to have two pacemakers and try to run the finish out of Frankel

The horses AOB uses as pacemakers wouldn't get Frankel off the bridle if they ran from York to London Mischief

Frankel's cruising speed is the devastating thing, can't see Listed class horses living with that for 6 furlongs , let alone actually remaining in front of him , they'd be putting the screens up around them by the end Sad . He has had all his races won by over 2f out so a finishing kick has not been necessary, don't doubt he has it though .
Report buddeliea August 5, 2011 6:14 PM BST
Agree,one reason why i think Frankel is more of a miler/sprinter than a miler/stayer.Think he would beat any horse up to a mile,further,not so sure.
Report tobermory August 5, 2011 6:42 PM BST
Unknown territory 10 furlongs, yes, but the ease with which he can coast through 7 furlongs at a speed that good milers cannot live with, you have to wonder what sort of state middle distance horses would be in at the 3 furlong pole; I;d say they would either be very hard ridden before Frankel has even begun to exert himself, or e;se they would be 20 lengths behind.
Report buddeliea August 5, 2011 7:05 PM BST
Do you think he would go that sort of pace over 1m4??
Report buddeliea August 5, 2011 7:17 PM BST
Or 1m2 even!!

To get the distance he would have to have some restrain,or if he were that good he would no doubt have been sussed out at home and been campaigned accordingly i imagine.
To me he shows them speed and more speed,and according to their experience in the game they have campaigned him in distances they think apt.
Personally i would hate to see him struggle home as he did at Ascot,cos to burn off specialist middle distance horses,he would have to go early,then hope he can hold them off when their stamina kicks in.Not what i want to see at all.
Why can people not accept connections decisions are best for the horse???
Report grendel August 5, 2011 9:02 PM BST
Given his phenomenal stride, I would say his best distance next year will be 10 furlongs with the possibility of stretching to 12 if they chose to take in the King George.  He was very relaxed in the Sussex and wasn't pulling in the first furlong and now looks as though he can be ridden however Queally chooses. People make too much about the St Jamess Palace performance as though its evidence that he won't stay, personally I think the Guineas rout was still not got over fully but his stride shortening was longer than other horses shortened stride so he didn't slow down as much as lesser horses would.
I would love to see him run in the Champion rather than the QEII as I feel he is now crying out to be stepped up in trip, but its understandable if he has another full and longer season that they finish his 3yo campaign sticking to the mile.
If you watch the Sussex and count the strides to yourself of Frankel compared to the other three its 2 of Frankels to 3 of the others, he doesn't look like he's going very fast until you see the others flat to the boards and struggling to keep up.
Report kevo August 6, 2011 12:01 AM BST
So the most unambitious campaign in history has seen Frankel being given a rating of 135 by the World Thoroughbred Rankings; 5lb clear of the next horse. Not bad for an "unambitious" campaign.
Report neill d August 6, 2011 12:34 AM BST
that is a red herring with regard to the ambition of the campaign
Report buddeliea August 6, 2011 7:22 AM BST
I think it likely he will have a go over further if he stays in training,but for that to happen his connections would have to be confident its the right thing,something as a 3yo they have not been.
His campaign has not been overly ambitious nor the opposite,its just been the campaign of a horse thought to be a miler by those that know him best.

Grendel,i have said before that Ascot had reasoning behind it,but it still shows to me that Frankel is a speed horse that gets a mile,and ridden better gets a mile well.What we dont know is how far he can go before he starts to struggle.
Personally from what i have seen i have my doubts re 10f and a lot more re 12.
You and many others it seems need to hope his trainer sees enough in the horse at home to convince them to step him up.Maybe they have and are waiting till next year to do it,i certainly hope so.To see Frankel beating the best middle distance horses at their game winning group 1's,on top of his 3yo campaign,now that would be something else!!
Maybe that has been the plan all along!!
Report tinkler August 6, 2011 1:51 PM BST
Everything points to Frankels best trip being between 6f -7f or even shorter. My guess is if run in the
Nunthorpe he'd anihalate them.  in the guineas he showed blistering early speed and at one point was miles
clear. By the end he was slowing pretty quickly ,clocking one of the slowest last 2f times for a guineas
winner in recent times. Again he showed blistering speed in a mid race move at Ascot ,before stopping
pretty quickly late on. At Goodwood they went very slow early and his pace blew them out of the water.
He's got that much pace i think he could well have beaten the fastest sprinter of the last 40+ years
Dayjur. The sectional times he's posted suggested he may well have beaten Dayjur.
It would have been fasinating to see if he could have conserved enough energy for his pace to be
effective at 1 1/4m and 1 1/2m. Hopefully one day we'll find out.
To me he's the fastest horse I've seen from 5f-1m ,if he could be efective at 1 1/4m as well surely
he would rank as the Best horse ever. Connections just need to give him a chance to prove it.
Report neill d August 6, 2011 3:15 PM BST
Disregard the Guineas and ascot runs with regard to judging his staying power, Queally left his brain in the weighing room and it is unreasonable to draw conclusions from it.

It told us he had 5 furlong speed that is it.

You can't tell whether a horse will stay a trip when ridden like that, having 5 furlong speed doesn't prohibit a great horse from staying 10 furlongs.

He set huge fractions in the final 7 furlongs of the Sussex and wasn't stopping at the end, Mordin reckons he'd get 10 furlongs standing on his head, he has a huge stride also.

As someone alluded to, he was probably still feeling the effects of Newmarket at Ascot as well.

Most importantly, there is nothing left to prove at a mile.
Report SoYouThink August 6, 2011 4:57 PM BST
What have Frankel's times been like in the Craven - Guineas - RA - Sussex? Speed figure wise I mean?

Would those four runs on the clock entitle him to be one of the greats?

As for this thread. I agree very cautious campaign. Rock of Gibraltar, Henrythenavigator, look at their campaigns after they won the Guineas - reads better than Frankels. Also not sure Frankel will race as a 4yo.

Still unbelievable horse to win races like he has, just not sure if he's a 'great'. Would put him at a level with ROG and Henry, for now.
Report tinkler August 6, 2011 5:28 PM BST
He hasn't done a great speed figure in any of his runs this year. Its the sectionals within the overall time that
suggest he's a superstar.
Report Figgis August 6, 2011 5:35 PM BST
Not sure how anybody can say his Guineas figure wasn't great?
Report A_T August 6, 2011 5:46 PM BST
Strong headwind on Guineas day otherwise it would have been a track record.
Report eric_morris August 6, 2011 9:23 PM BST
Good god the horse, as pointed out best part of a year ago, would have got 1m 2f then standing on not only his head but his head balanced on a broom handle. Spare the fkin geniuses coming out with the fact he will get it now. The horse will get 1m 4f as a 3yo only he wont get a chance to show it.
Report buddeliea August 7, 2011 10:57 AM BST
Absolutely no hard evidence to back that up Eric,just sounds like someone who got the hump cos you backed him antepost for the Derby.I am sure his trainer knows more than you,and anyone else who says he should run over further.

Comparing him with other horses that have been campaigned differently is not right,they are not Frankel,so imo its a daft argument.

To me its simple,trust the trainer,he knows the horse far better then we do,and has been in the game a long time,and a lot of that time he has spent at the top of that game.
We all want to see great races and horses facing new challenges,its what gets us excited in this sport,but we also have to be realistic and accept that those close to the horse and see him every day know far more than us.
Report grendel August 7, 2011 12:11 PM BST
buddelia, let me take you back to 13th August 2010, Newmarket July course with an uphill finish there was a 1m maiden in soft ground containing the future King George winner and Sandown Classic Trial winner, how would you expect a horse who would as a 3yo not get any further than 1m to fare in this race, his debut,having been held up in midfield?
Report Led on bit August 7, 2011 1:17 PM BST
I agree I think he'll get 1m4 like the Brigadier did hope he runs in the KG next year would be very happy to see that
Report SoYouThink August 7, 2011 6:32 PM BST
Comparing him with other horses that have been campaigned differently is not right,they are not Frankel,so imo its a daft argument.

I think this comment may have been directed at my remark above...?

If so, the horses I referenced were Rock of Gibraltar and Henrythenavigator. Both of whom won the 2000 Guineas, St James Palace and Sussex Stakes as 3yos - like Frankel. Difference being both took in the Irish 2000 Guineas between Newmarket and Royal Ascot, and both went to France (for the Moulin) and the USA (for the Breeders Cup). Henry also ran in the QEII.

Now tell me what is daft about that? That is the way a Guineas winner should be campaigned (particularly if it's one who is proclaimed to be the best the trainer has seen), not the tippy tappy that Frankel has.

Interestingly, the only Guineas to race as a 4yo since 2002 was George Washington - and they tried to retire him. So it'd be really against the grain of proceedings to bring this back for a 4yo campaign.
Report SoYouThink August 7, 2011 6:49 PM BST
Not sure how anybody can say his Guineas figure wasn't great?

Bare in mind I have absolutely no idea about speed figures, or the methods/approach a compiler takes when analysing the times of a race.

But.....Frankel's Guineas time was 1.8 seconds slower than RP standard - all other races on the card were 2-6 seconds slower than standard, the sprints were 2 and 3 seconds slower, and the 1m 4f race preceding the Guineas was 5 secs slower. Now I guess at a glance that would suggest, Frankel ran a good time - for the conditions - in the Guineas?

Only problem is I think I've read comments saying it's the highest figure they've ever given a racehorse (possibly Figgis?)......Now without wishing to get into a debate about this, I appreciate that it was a good time but surely his time was not that much better than the others on the card was it? Or what would be the rationale behind such a high figure?

Looking at the James Palace, all races were between +/- 1sec of standard except the 2m 4f handicap. At a glance, there would not appear to be anything special about Frankel's efforts at Royal Ascot.

Sussex Stakes...same story....good time - comfortably the closest to standard on the card, though is it a great time? Good yeah, but how good?

Am I reading this correctly? The clock says Frankel is good, probably proven Group One, but can anyone tell me what it is about his times that might make extraordinary?
Report SoYouThink August 7, 2011 6:55 PM BST
Its the sectionals within the overall time that suggest he's a superstar.

Are sectionals hand-timed? And if so, how accurate would they be......+/-0.5 secs maybe?

Presumably slow early sectionals would increase the likelihood of fast sectionals nearer the end. Though I'm not sure that applies to Frankel, as I'd hazard a guess that a lot of horses finished their races faster than him at Newmarket and Royal Ascot. The Goodwood race might be a different story as he was actually putting more daylight into his rivals all the way to the line?
Report Figgis August 7, 2011 7:10 PM BST
It wasn't me that said it was the highest figure I've ever given a horse. It was very high for a 3yo at that time of year though, much more in keeping with a very high class older horse. Going back as far as 1985 the only comparable Guineas figure, for me, would be Zafonic.
Report A_T August 7, 2011 7:26 PM BST
Frankel's Guineas and Sussex Stakes wins were as good as you'll ever see over a mile. The Guineas would have been a track record but for the strong headwind. The Sussex wasn't a great overall time because of the early crawl but the final sections were off the charts. Frankel is a truly exceptional racehorse and as long as he races at 4 I'm not too bothered how many more races he has this season.
Report buddeliea August 7, 2011 8:05 PM BST
Really dont care what horses you throw into the debate,at the end of the Day Frankel is a different horse to those and is being campaigned as his trainer thinks he should,according i imagine as to what he shows them at home.

You can all go on as much as you like,and time may prove you have fair points,but at this stage his trainer says he is a miler,and so do i.
Report tobermory August 7, 2011 8:28 PM BST
as long as he races at 4 I'm not too bothered how many more races he has this season.

Just don't see what he is going to do next year he couldn't be doing this summer/autumn.

Top Class horses running as  4YOs is only a good thing in that it should mean they have a lot more runs in their career as a whole . I doubt it will happen like that. As someone said earlier , if the Ascot ground is soft he will probably not run again this year. Then next year there is the big issue of wether the horse still has the same enthusiasm when returning after having - at most - 1 race in the previous 9 months, or wether he will go the way of Balanchine, Slip Anchor etc . Very few of the great 3YO that came back seem to have had a full season at 4YO.

Certainly i think if he starts off with anything less than the spectacular we have seen in 2010 he will probably only run once. If he has to be ridden out to win the Lockinge by a length or so from Strong Suit or something like that he will be retired immediatley.

I'd just like to see him run as often as possible when we know he is at his best, which is defintely right now and only hopefully in 2012 . Wether he is 3 or 4 is not important to me.
Report A_T August 17, 2011 3:55 PM BST
Juddmonte International result today - that's why they don't need to try Frankel over further.
Report Anaglogs Daughter August 17, 2011 5:21 PM BST
Henry Cecil "If we didn't win the Juddmonte today, we were going to have to wait another year to win it with Frankel."
Report Authorized August 17, 2011 5:59 PM BST
Yes, I heard that from Henry today but it's always a risky thing in racing to plan that far ahead with setbacks and the like. The decision to race on though shows the Prince is putting racing before breeding as Coolmore and Darley would surely have retired him as too valuable an asset. Then again they would've went for the Breeders Cup this year to cap his career.
Report buddeliea August 18, 2011 5:06 PM BST
Yep,juddmonte in the bag,Frankel remains unbeaten with the QE11 to come to round off the season,and then back as a 4yr old.
Sounds like fair training to me.
Report Sterling Morrison August 23, 2011 11:59 AM BST
Supplement him in the St Leger I say, then Champion Hurdle in 2012
Report Sterling Morrison August 23, 2011 12:02 PM BST
Although on a more serious note I do agree with the leading post

I don't think Epsom would have been the right call, but at least one 10f race this season because you never know what may happen before next year.

Say the 10f race at Ascot (Champion Stakes?) that used to be run at HQ?  Long season though May - Oct so maybe we will have to hope he stays sound over the winter........
Report A_T August 23, 2011 1:24 PM BST
Cecil/Abdulla have a strong hand for the Champion Stakes without Frankel.
Report tobermory August 24, 2011 12:22 AM BST
The priority should be making Frankel a legend of the sport rather than the owner winning particular group 1s with horses that have a dozen between them already.
Report buddeliea August 24, 2011 6:54 AM BST
the priority is doing whats best for the horse,thats what they think they are doing.They know more than us.
Report Sterling Morrison August 29, 2011 1:20 PM BST
Not always....

I have seen many a campaign f*&^%ed up by the trainer and many a bad ride from the jockey.

Both AOB and HC have been heard to apologise after the fact for fairly obvious mistakes any idiot could have observed beforehand.

Clearly they should have got a Gp1 10f win into him this year but my guess is he will never be seen on a racetrack again after the QEII
Report jonibake August 29, 2011 9:08 PM BST
Sterling you kill me. What ridiculous comments. What "fairly obvious mistakes" has Cecil made with Frankel then? I'm not sure "any idiot" can spot them but it probably needs one to spot one. Your "guess" is also that he is a liar for saying he will stay in training.

Frankel has run 4 times this year. Same as Goldikova, same as So You Think, more than Workforce, Pour Moi, Canford Cliffs, St Nicholas Abbey, Sarafina, Await The Dawn... I could go on.

Whne next year is finished and he has won The Dewhurst, The 2,000 Guineas, The St James Palace, The Sussex,  The QE II, The Lockinge, The Prince of Wales, The Eclipse, The Juddmonte International, The Champion and The Breeders Cup I wonder if this thread will still be going?
Report Authorized August 30, 2011 6:16 AM BST
If Frankel returns next season and wins all the races being mooted then the long-term plan will have worked to perfection but as the last month has shown, with the retirements of Pour Moi and Canford Cliffs, racing is a fragile business. It seems totally unnecessary to me for a horse at the peak of his powers to not run in August or September. A clash with So You Think in Ireland this Saturday would've been mouthwatering but we're left with a uninspiring Irish Champion.

Even if Frankel stays injury free there's the question of whether he can maintain his form throughout next season. The wondermare Goldikova certainly has for a number of years but her connections didn't shirk the challenge of a BC Mile as a 3-y-o. In all my years of following racing I've never known such a high profile horse have such an anti-climatic end to a season.
Report roobuck August 30, 2011 8:01 AM BST
I couldn't agree more. And what racing needs more than anything is a greater profile outside the sport and a 'superstar' racehorse will have helped that.

Obviously connections need to put the horse first but with such a long gap to the QE11, there could be a case of Frankel needing the run. He ran 4 times in 2 months a 2yo and whilst I appreciate that they are also taking next year into consideration, another run would surely have been well within the horse's capacity.
Report jonibake August 30, 2011 8:40 AM BST
Why is it an anti-climactic end to the season? He is running on Champions day in the Champion mile race. I already have my ticket and cant wait! If no one turns up to race against him is that his fault? Besides I think Excelebration and Immortal Verse will make it a cracking race. Guys, for now he is a miler and so he runs in mile races. Patience!!!

As for not turning up in Ireland - to be frank the race is not high enough on ANYONES agenda is it? And why didnt SYT turn up to the Sussex or Juddmonte?

I think it is a fair enough point to make in saying that he could have had ONE more race this season and I am as disappointed as everyone else but I do think we should try and keep the bigger picture in mind.

Horses are not machines and this one had been on the go since March in preparation for the Greenham. I am sure Henry will have him spot on for Ascot (probably have a racecourse gallop).

My last point is that IF this was to have been his last season you would almost certainly have seen a different programme. If we are slightly disappointed this year he should make up for it next when his last two races are likely to be The Champion followed by The Breeders Cup. Anyway one should always leave'em wanting more!
Report roobuck August 30, 2011 9:03 AM BST
Have they decided which course it is to be run on yet? I really hope it is the straight mile, think it will be a much better spectacle
Report jonibake August 30, 2011 10:26 AM BST
I heard it was the straight Roo. They also doing going to do what I suggested before the Sussex and run Bullet Train as pacemaker. Makes sense.
Report Sterling Morrison August 30, 2011 11:25 AM BST

Where in my post did I ever specifically refer to HC admitting to mistakes with regard to Frankel?

He may well have done, but not that I have heard.  It was a general response to a general observation that the trainer always knows best. Trainers and other connections make mistakes and in the case of Frankel I think they are.  I do hope that Frankel does run as a 4 yr old and over more than 8f and I cast no slur on HC's honesty but just look at Pour Moi who too could have been cast as a wonder horse but for a piece of ill fortune.

BTW AOB does not train Frankel - this also makes it clear thatit was a general point .
Report Authorized August 30, 2011 11:35 AM BST
I have to disagree about the Irish Champion not being high on anyone's agenda. The winners of the past 20 years are a match for any race in Europe. When Godolphin had superstars they always ran them here and they won(Swain. Daylami, Fantastic Light).
Report jonibake August 30, 2011 12:44 PM BST
So what exactly is your point then? That trainers sometimes make mistakes? Genius observation that. Surely we can all agree that GENERALLY trainers know what is best for their horses - especially two rather good ones like AOB and HC.

So your guess is that Frankel will get injured or suffer some misfortune is it? Nothing like a bit of optimism! Well of course it can happen as we saw with the talented and unexposed Pour Moi though not sure too many were predicting he might be a wonderhorse.

As for the Irish Champion - I agree it has been well contested in the past but THIS year noone seems too bothered.
Report buddeliea August 30, 2011 5:15 PM BST
Why is it so clear that they should have got a 10f group 1 win with Frankel??

Thats an opinion of yours shared by some others on here,but by no means clearly as you put it,and certainly not a view shared by those that know the horse better ie connections.

We can all have our opinions and we all want to see horses run,and at distances and in races to get us excited,but that should not detract from the fact that owners and trainers train their best horses with the horse as the main priority,not our feelings.

As i have said before,Frankel is a 3yo miler who has run in all the top 3yomile races plus the Sussex,and then the QE11.
Thats not unambitious,just not what a lot of the general public wanted.
Well tough really,and anyway we have next season to look forward to,when anyone who wants to see Frankel tackle longer distances will,i imagine,get their wish.
As someone said earlier-Patience!!
Report neill d August 30, 2011 9:33 PM BST
Irish Champion is the most prestigious race in the Irish calenderPlain
Report neill d August 30, 2011 9:36 PM BST
winners in the last 10 years


Fantastic Light


Frankie Dettori

Saeed bin Suroor






Frankie Dettori

Saeed bin Suroor




High Chaparral


Michael Kinane

Aidan O'Brien

Tabor / Magnier





Michael Kinane

John Oxx

HH Aga Khan IV





Kieren Fallon

Aidan O'Brien

Magnier / Tabor



Dylan Thomas


Kieren Fallon

Aidan O'Brien

Magnier / Tabor



Dylan Thomas


Kieren Fallon

Aidan O'Brien

Magnier / Tabor



New Approach


Kevin Manning

Jim Bolger

Princess Haya of Jordan



Sea the Stars


Michael Kinane

John Oxx

Christopher Tsui



Cape Blanco


Seamus Heffernan

Aidan O'Brien



It wouldn't be top of the list of group 1's I'd denigrate, the Juddemont is often weak as well and the less said about the Lockinge the better.
Report neill d August 30, 2011 9:37 PM BST
This years is atrocious though, but we haven't got the horses in Ireland at the minute, Oxx, Weld and Bolger have no top class horses.
Report Mr Mischief August 30, 2011 11:55 PM BST
Yes, probably the worst Irish Champion in living memory, especially when you consider what's gone before. People keep referring to this year as a vintage flat season but with Pour Moi's retirement and Frankel's lack of ambition I think it's definitely more a case of what might have been.
Report neill d August 31, 2011 12:28 AM BST
2 Good duels, the Eclipse and the Sussex, the rest has been soso, horses in Ireland are so poor this year
Report Man From Atlantis August 31, 2011 1:12 AM BST
Must be keeping Frankel in training next year otherwise op is spot on
Report buddeliea August 31, 2011 6:57 AM BST
Thet are keeping him in training next year,so op is not spot on.
And even if he werent around next year dont mean its unambitious considering Frankel is a miler and has run in all the top mile races.
Report jonibake August 31, 2011 8:50 AM BST
Frankel's 2,000, Pour Moi last to first in Derby, Rewilding in POW, Cecil 1-2 in Juddmonte - so so?
Report neill d August 31, 2011 11:13 AM BST
Sorry, yes POW was terrifice, Juddemont was a bad race imo, Derby was a poor renewal also imo, sorry yes Frankel's 2000 unbelievable, I think the overall quality of the 3yo's isn't great this year bar about 4 or 5 horses, we've now 2 good 3yo milers and maybe 2 good 3yo middle distance horses, the top ones are grand, it is just what lies beneath the upper crust, we have only dross here in Ireland this season in the 3yo division and I think that has effected the Juddemont and the Irish champion, the Irish derby was once again a load of rubbish. The mile division is lacking as well now Canford is gone, I think, the way a horse like Await the Dawn was hyped showed in a way that we haven't the depth we think, certainly, for Ireland, this has been an atrocious flat season, the only redeeming feature being the Irish Oaks, Mistyforme and SYT, Roderic and Treasure Beach our Classic winners, I despair, the Irish Ledger winner might turn out a better horse than our Derby winner, we've problems over here lads.
Report jonibake August 31, 2011 12:18 PM BST
When does any year throw up more than 4 or 5 really good horses though?

Agree that there is no strength in depth in the 10f division. Would have helped if Frankel HAD been stepped up in trip this year but there we go. Elsewhere though I think it has been an excellent year and the 3 year olds have won most of the big Group 1/2 races.

The 7f/mile division has Frankel, Excelebration, Immortal Verse and Strong Suit.
Mile and a half plus we have Nathaniel, Blue Bunting, Sea Moon and what might have been with Pour Moi. A few with something still to prove but certainly above average I'd say.

You are right to say it has been a disappointing year for Irish 3 year olds but certainly Misty For Me looked high class when winning the Pretty Polly and could still make her mark.

You cant please all the people I suppose and I agree we are in the middle of a bit of a lull in Aug/Sept but, for me, a good year has been made exceptional by the emergence of Frankel as a true great.
Report Sterling Morrison August 31, 2011 12:36 PM BST
Budd, Joni

Why get a Gp1 10f win into Frankel this year?

Are you mad?

- He has pretensions to being a star horse.
- He may have a problem between 3 and 4 (unheard of I may hear you say)
- The trainer and connections are being unecessarily conservative
- The QEII is a penalty kick
- He has the breeding to get 12F
- The Irish Champion is weak and another penalty kick (like the Brigadier at York)
- What could he do if ridden properly

etc etc etc

As it is probably remembered as a decent miler

Sea Bird II
Mill Reef
Brigadier Gerard
Sea the Stars

When you have diamond be ambitious otherwise what is the point?
Report Sterling Morrison August 31, 2011 12:40 PM BST
And dare I say a decent run in the Irish Champion..................

Then why not the Arc?
Report jonibake August 31, 2011 1:32 PM BST
Not mad at all Sterling. In 20 years time who will care whether he won his 10f races as a 3 year old or a 4 year old? It doesnt matter. Yes of course he could get injured - so could any horse - but does that mean they should try and cram as many races into him now a la Jim Bolger? You would probably argue yes. I wouldnt.

If, when he has finished his whole career, he still has not tried other distances perhaps your argument will be more valid for me but we are only half way through his career. We saw Sea The Stars a total of 8 times. BARRING INJURY we are likely to see Frankel 14 or 15 times. Hardly conservative.

The QE II may be a penalty kick but only because he is so good - hardly his fault. BTW I would argue The Irish Champ would definitely NOT be one as SYT is a brilliant horse.

As for the breeding, may I remind you that his mother was a sprinter. Henry doesnt need reminding and he sees this horse every day. I am sure he would have LOVED to win the Derby with him but he didnt think he would stay. That might not be your opinion but it is his and his is what counts and he is probably in the best position to make that call. You need to accept that he is NOT nor never will be a mile and a half horse just like others need to accept he will never be a sprinter.

I do think a lot of the people who were anti-Frankel at the start of the year and didnt see the bleedin obvious - that he was champion material - are now jumping on this bandwagon and slating him for running as many times as all the other good horses!
Report A_T August 31, 2011 1:45 PM BST
Once a horse has established himself as a champion at a certain distance it is unusual for the connections to take a risk and try it over an untested distance. Especially when there are big doubts about stamina. I think it was possible that Frankel might have run over 10f this year - but Cecil/Abdulla have a strong hand already over that distance so if they run Frankel in the Juddmonte or Champion Stakes where do Midday and Twice Over go?

Remember Brigadier Gerard did not run beyond 8f until the Champion Stakes - that is not possible for Frankel as the QEII is now run on the same day.
Report tobermory August 31, 2011 3:17 PM BST
Frankel is a miler and has run in all the top mile races.

Is the Jacques Le Marois not a top mile race anymore Confused
Report buddeliea August 31, 2011 5:11 PM BST
Sorry,nearly all the top mile races.Certainly all the top English races anyway.

I have nothing to add to Jonibakes comments,he has summed it up for me.
Cheers Joni
Report roobuck August 31, 2011 9:10 PM BST
Clearly Frankel is a champion horse over a mile, and as is turns out this year, imo, could have been at 10F as well.

To go off at a slight tangent, I think part of the problem is Champions Day at Ascot now being in October. That days is worth so much money and can determine trainer's championship etc thatir will run the risk of having milers and 10F horses having a mid season break as many of the Arc horses do.

Joni you mention a lull in July and August, well that is criminal. This the heart of the flat season and the BHA run the risk of getting the flat similar to the NH season when after Xmas, nothing matters apart from Cheltenham
Report jonibake August 31, 2011 9:52 PM BST
Sorry Roo but I said Aug/Sept - July was pretty good imo as was York to be fair. Your point is still valid however and I agree that the last thing we want is for a repeat of what happens in the NH.

I think it is inevitable that there will be a lull at some point. Most trainers recognise that the top class horses cannot maintain their form from March to October without a break.

Next year Champions Day will be in September which will hopefully work better and prevent too much of a dip. We would then have York in August, Champions Day and Doncaster in September, the Arc in October and Breeders Cup in November. Not bad i'd say!
Report A_T August 31, 2011 10:07 PM BST
AFAIK Champions Day in 2012 is on 20th October.
Report jonibake August 31, 2011 10:34 PM BST
I was watching Nick Luck interviewing Cecil last week and he said it would be in September. Just checked on line though and it looks like it is Oct 20th so apologies all!
Report roobuck August 31, 2011 10:40 PM BST

So you did, apologies.

I have to say I also thought that Champions Day was at same time next year and the whole concept was for it to be a true end of season culmination  with the best horses deciding the champions at their respective distances?

It only needs to be a season that starts in March for the Classic horses. Getting back to Frankel on that basis, I think it would be disappointing to see him start its season in the Lockinge, though Newbury would be ideal for me to get to. Much rather see him start later and compete in the championship races including the BC. And as for 10f, what about the Dubai World Cup?
Report jonibake August 31, 2011 11:01 PM BST
In that same interview Cecil spoke about a possible programme of Lockinge, POW or Queen Anne, Eclipse, Juddmonte, Champion Stakes and BC mile or classic. He DID say that would obviously depend on how he takes his races but that is the sketchy plan.

Dubai World Cup isn't until March and would scupper his first season as a sire so unlikely.
Report johnnyrant September 1, 2011 11:41 AM BST
As long as he wins in Oct I'm happy with Frankel's campaign this year having taken 14s at start of year he'd go unbeaten season long. That said, would have loved to have seen him take his chance in Derby. The way he switched off at Goodwood, if he could have done that at Epsom he'd have won even if not truly staying 12f.
Report roobuck September 4, 2011 12:24 PM BST
Frankel would have won either GP1 yesterday imo.

Dangerous I know, but am beginning to agree with Eric that HRAC is sometimes too cautious. The only thing that would justify such a long break would be if were thinking about going to the BC.

Joni, why not go to Dubai this March?

HRAC is also being too cautious with Midday. She has beaten Snow Fairy very easily each time they have met and with SYT's result yesterday, I think Midday would have a terrific chance in the Arc on good ground or better but she is being aimed at Ascot. I know it is a very big pot and will help in trainer's championship.....but there is only one Arc
Report jonibake September 4, 2011 1:33 PM BST
Some very reasonable points Roo. Henry has often said he is not a big fan of the Arc and I think he wants that championship! I agree though - on yesterdays form, Midday would have to have a chance. I think she will win the Champion if the ground is good or better.

There's no way he would want to start Frankel's season in March in Dubai over 10f. Twice Over took a long time to get over his trip this year and I doubt you will see any Cecil horses in that race again. Let's face it - it's been a bit of a farcical race the last 2 years.

If I am totally honest, I would have loved to have seen Frankel run 6 times this season rather than 5. I read this morning that he is being kept busy at home and is still working twice a week so could have run yesterday I suppose. I'll say it one more time though - I would rather judge his campaign after he has finished next year.
Report A_T September 4, 2011 1:40 PM BST
Absolutely zero chance of going to Dubai unless Sheikh Mohammed buys him. That meeting is nowhere near as prestigious as the Sheikh likes to think.
Report Sterling Morrison September 4, 2011 2:23 PM BST
I will be very pleased if Frankel has an untroubled winter and has a successful campaign as a four year old.

My opinion would be that a later start would be appropriate and certainly a step up in distance, I certainly don't want to be left wondering what might have been.

So if say he were to have his first run at the Royal Meeting  what then, or what do people guess/think might be his best campaign as a 4yr old?
Report jonibake September 4, 2011 4:02 PM BST
I think he will start earlier Sterling - at the Lockinge in May. Possible route would then be POW, Eclipse, Juddmonte, Champion, Breeders Cup Classic/mile. Would love to see them swap Eclipse for a King George but aint gonna happen!
Report Sterling Morrison November 2, 2011 1:06 PM GMT
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