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Sussex Stakes

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Replies: 211
By:
buddeliea
When: 07 Jul 11 06:10
Yes Sint,but put it this way,i dont think any horse that Frankel has faced this season would beat Canford.
Now whether that means Frankel would not as well remains to be seen.Personally i hope he does turn out to be a superstar,he may already be,but until he beats the best around their are doubts in my mind.
Its great for Mr Cecil to have great horses again after his problems health wise,and Frankel to prove a superstar would be brilliant.
I just hope we get to see them race over a mile at Goodwood or in the QE11.
I've eaten humble pie a fair few times in the past!!
By:
TheFormMan
When: 07 Jul 11 09:17
I find it hard to believe that there are still people out there who cant see that Frankel has already proven that he is a complete superstar of a horse.
Imo he has more natural raw racing talent than any of the recent greats we have been blessed with,including the likes of Dalakhani,Manduro,Zarkava and sea the stars.

He has raced 7 times to date and won all 7 races with complete ease,beating no less than 9 group 1 winners in the proccess.
I can understand now that people want him to take on the cream of the older horses to prove his greatness even further and i have no doubt that he will complete that task in his stride.
I stated before the Queen Anne that i believed Canford Cliffs to be the best miler i have seen since Rock of Gibralter and stand by that after his decisive victory over 13 times group 1 winner Goldikova

I would now hope that victory over Canford in the sussex and victory in the breeders cup mile would silence any doubters for good about Frankels deserved place in history

I cant for the life of me see any horse being able to give Frankel 8lbs on likely fast ground and beat him,Frankel has to be a very very confident selection
By:
Figgis
When: 07 Jul 11 09:35
TFM
I doubt you'd have expected Zoffany to get within three quarters of a length of him though last time? On that running CC would've most likely have beaten him at wfa. Yes, Queally probably did make his move too soon, but he made his move even sooner in the Guineas but that didn't stop him showing a very high level of form, around a stone better than last time.
By:
grendel
When: 07 Jul 11 10:07
How do you come to that conclusion Figgis, CC and Frankel both carried 9-0 on 14/6/11. The SJP was run 0.14 secs faster compared to Racing Post standard than the Queen Anne with Frankel running a far less even paced race than CC did. On wfa CC would have had to concede Frankel 11 lb.

If Frankel was in the Queen Anne with wfa allotted (hypothetically), he would have won it easily imo.
By:
Figgis
When: 07 Jul 11 10:24
Grendel, apologies, I meant on Frankel's running in that race, CC would most likely beat him at current wfa terms. As the season progresses wfa becomes more of a disadvantage to a horse like Frankel, unless you believe he will make typical progress from his Guineas win, but I find it hard to believe he could actually improve on that. Actually, on my scale using a strict interpretation of those races CC would still have to find a couple of pounds, but I think that's very possible given the way he's ridden. As I've said before, it all depends which Frankel turns up, but at 5/4 I'll just watch.
By:
grendel
When: 07 Jul 11 11:25
On my speed figures, Frankel was doing the sort of figures Canford Cliffs is now doing when he was a 2 year old. Any notion that he was just a mature 2yo who wouldn't improve as a 3yo was very firmly laid to rest in the 2,000 guineas.
By:
Figgis
When: 07 Jul 11 11:41
Grendel, there's no doubt at all that he did improve in the Guineas, that doesn't mean he will continue to improve, it has to be very unlikely that he will, or he really would be a super freak. Of course, he doesn't need to improve on that to carry all before him this season, but he'll need to do better than last time.
By:
AdvantageAussie
When: 07 Jul 11 12:20
Canford Cliffs won the Queen Anne, but when I found out Goldi carried 2 lb over, with the margin only a length, should he have won it? Of course I'm probably talking though my wallet more than anything. I backed Goldi to win. Cry
By:
sintonian
When: 07 Jul 11 14:23
He won with a little bit up his sleeve imo Aussie.
By:
tinkler
When: 07 Jul 11 15:35
Its probably worth noting that Cecil is nowhere near the trainer he used to be in the 80's and 90's when he
used to dominate in the top end races. If this race was run 20 years ago you could safely say Cecil wass a
much better current trainer than Hannon, thats not the case now and Hannon is at the moment possibly a better trainer.
If you look at Form cycles it could be argued Frankel peaked in the 2,000 then declined in the ST James Palace
(or did he bounce).  Which Frankel will turn up?
  If he was trained by AOB I would make him a very strong selection to win as you could be very confident
he'll turn up in great condition. As it is I'll probably sit the race out.
By:
ilikewavingatbuses
When: 07 Jul 11 15:55
canford wouldve cruised past frankel last time given how close zoffany got to him. i still think frankel will take a hell of a lot of beating if he is ridden with restraint and the previous races havent taken too much out of him. good race and impossibe to be confident about either!
By:
Figgis
When: 08 Jul 11 18:24
tinkler
07 Jul 11 16:35   

Hannon is at the moment possibly a better trainer.


Of speedy 2yos maybe.
By:
jonibake
When: 08 Jul 11 18:38
Wow Tinkler. You don't trust Sir Henry Cecil to have Frankel in good condition? Plain You would prefer AOB (can someone remind me what he said after the POW???) How do you work out that Richard Hannon is "possibly a better trainer"? More prolific in terms of winners yes (he has double the size string of Sir H) but a BETTER trainer???? Nurse!!!! NURSE!!!!!!!!!!!
By:
buddeliea
When: 08 Jul 11 19:45
Dont see much wrong with what Tinkler said re the better trainer.Possibly the better trainer can mean possibly not as well.He's not sure,thats probably why he said possibly!!
I think their can be a case to say that Hannon has been more successful in recent years,and some may say that makes him better now.
By:
buddeliea
When: 08 Jul 11 19:48
FWIW,i would say if Hannon and Cecil were given a horse each of similar ability to train,i aint sure which would turn out better.
By:
buddeliea
When: 08 Jul 11 19:54
Mind you i do disagree about AOB.To be honest i think the likes of Cecil,Hannon,Stoute have forgotten more than o'Brien knows.
By:
Figgis
When: 08 Jul 11 20:18
More successful how? Numbers?
By:
jonibake
When: 08 Jul 11 21:56
I suppose it depends what he means by "at the moment."

Does he mean today? Timepiece won a Group 1
Does he mean this year? Cecil 3 group 1's - Hannon 2
Does he mean last 5 years? Cecil 14 group 1's - Hannon 6

By more successful he can only possibly mean numbers which also puts Fahey, Johnston, Ryan, Channon and Easterby ahead of him.

Don't get me wrong - Richard Hannon is a great trainer but better than Sir Henry Cecil? I don't think so.
By:
buddeliea
When: 09 Jul 11 05:07
Thats why i said some may say Hannon was the better trainer,cos they may think success is all about how many winners.

Personally,i think its all relative to what your owners want and how many horses you train.
Over the years that i have followed the sport,Henry Cecil and Michael Stoute have been the 2 outstanding trainers,dont think many could argue with that,and unless Mr Cecil has forgotten some of his skills then he has to be still as good.Is Richard Hannon now up there?probably not,but he aint far behind i would think.
By:
Figgis
When: 09 Jul 11 08:43
I don't think Hannon has ever come close to the kind of strike rates Cecil and Stoute have achieved, his runners have been much more inconsistent.
By:
jonibake
When: 09 Jul 11 18:29
Not a bad start for the 3 year olds hey Buddilea? That's one horse that Frankel has beaten who is clearly not "pretty average"
By:
comingupthehill
When: 10 Jul 11 02:34
buddeliea Joined: 19 Mar 04
Replies: 3613 03 Jul 11 08:48   

Over hyped is Frankel at this stage



just to clarify - overhype.

example 1 - some unknown australian horse,whos beat a few badly bred ozzie horses ,is talked about as the fastest horse ever to live.


example 2 - a horse that daily beats the trains running through newmarket,then when let loose on a track - desimates a classic ,group 1 - breaking the hearts and minds of numerous future champions who lay in its wake.



technically frankel couldnt be overhyped,as just reporting the facts of the guineas sounds so unbelieviable ,that you have to tone down its run for fear of sounding stupid.


it didnt win a hcp at ascot ,it didnt win a sheep shearers plate in ex colonial prison compound,


even when it wins cosily the trainer is gobsmacked as it didnt destroy its field,


they re not trying to get the jockey to time is run properly to win the race,it will win the race no matter how much the jockey messes up - they want anialation of opposition .good place to start is canford cliffs.
By:
buddeliea
When: 10 Jul 11 07:57
Calm down sunshine.
When/if Frankel beats the best around thats the time to come out with superlatives.Like i have said lets wait and see.
So Dream Ahead won yesterday,does that make Frankel a superstar??
By:
tommyjone
When: 10 Jul 11 08:01
@ Comingupthehill

If you mean black caviar then I think you should probably learn more about where the worlds best sprinters are Silly

If you mean So You Think, then alrighty.
By:
buddeliea
When: 10 Jul 11 08:02
Drop back in distance obviously helped DA.

At this stage Frankel is the best 3yo miler.
Time will tell if he is the best miler.
By:
jonibake
When: 10 Jul 11 08:24
I think what Comingupthehill is saying Buddilea is that, even if Dream Ahead hadnt won yesterday, Frankel IS a superstar. Anyone that has followed racing for a period of time should be able to see this really. There's no hype needed - Frankel does it all on the track.

The fact is Dream Ahead DID win yesterday. Actually he absolutely p1ssed it and was a different class to his opposition. Frankel in turn is in a different league to Dream Ahead who he has thrashed twice.

You are right that, as a miler, Frankel has one last test to take - against Canford Cliffs. Then hopefully you will finally see what the majority of the racing world has known for some time. This horse is a true great.
By:
sintonian
When: 10 Jul 11 08:36
jonibake
Date Joined: 18 Nov 10 Add contact | Send message
When: 10 Jul 11 09:24 Joined: Date Joined: 18 Nov 10 | Topic/replies: 248 | Blogger: jonibake's blog
I think what Comingupthehill is saying Buddilea is that, even if Dream Ahead hadnt won yesterday, Frankel IS a superstar. Anyone that has followed racing for a period of time should be able to see this really. There's no hype needed - Frankel does it all on the track.

Agree. Baffles me sometimes when people cant see what is glaringly obvious.
By:
buddeliea
When: 10 Jul 11 08:37
Some think Frankel is a great horse now,some like myself think he may be a great horse but need to see him beat proven top milers before being labelled great.
I will have no problem saying you were right all along,at the same time i would like to think if he gets beat by Canford or indeed any other proven top miler that people will say he aint as good as we thought.
By:
buddeliea
When: 10 Jul 11 08:40
Sint,lto Frankel looked far from a superstar to me.
By:
Figgis
When: 10 Jul 11 08:43
Beddelia, when did you reach the conclusion CC was a "top miler"?
By:
Figgis
When: 10 Jul 11 08:43
Sorry, buddeliea.
By:
buddeliea
When: 10 Jul 11 08:46
you not think he is figgis?
i would say goldikova is a top miler myself.
By:
sintonian
When: 10 Jul 11 08:48
So what if he didnt Budd, he is a horse, not a machine.
By:
Figgis
When: 10 Jul 11 08:50
I think he's very good, it's just that judging him purely on the same criteria as you're judging Frankel, I'd say he hadn't beat a top class miler until last time out. RVW wasn't quite as good as a 4yo, I'd also argue that Goldikova isn't as good as a 6yo.
By:
buddeliea
When: 10 Jul 11 09:00
Goldikova may not be as good as she was,but she has won something like a dozen group 1's,so beating her is a fair way of judging.Mr Head certainly thinks she is still a goodun.
Maybe you are underestimating CC mate.
By:
Figgis
When: 10 Jul 11 09:04
I'm not underestimating him, I'm saying he's very good. It's just that you don't appear to be applying the same rules for judging Frankel as you are CC.
By:
buddeliea
When: 10 Jul 11 09:09
I am judging both horses on what i have seen and I am saying that CC has beaten a top miler,and imo Frankel has not,and until he does i dont use the word great.
Seems the same rules to me.
By:
buddeliea
When: 10 Jul 11 09:10
Sint,he is indeed a horse and a good one at that,but imo not a great........yet!!
And that run lto some might say backs that up.
By:
Figgis
When: 10 Jul 11 09:12
Ok, so if Goldikova goes on to prove that she's not as good this year would you downgrade CC?
By:
buddeliea
When: 10 Jul 11 09:16
Well we have to judge on form so that would have a bearing on things,but i would be more interested on what CC does.After all, How would we know exactly when Goldikova started to decline?? For all we know it could be after the Ascot race.
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