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Celtic Son
30 Dec 10 19:16
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Date Joined: 20 Jan 05
| Topic/replies: 7,903 | Blogger: Celtic Son's blog
I couldn't give a monkeys if they are re-opening the race or not, my bet was for Boxing Day (would have take the day after) not 2 and a half weeks later. Sizing Europe was ready then but seemingly won't be travelling again for the race now, how is that fair exactly? I took the risk for antepost which was the bet, my horse was ready on the day of the stated race, so why shouldn't I get my money back if it's run ages afterwards? People can always reinvest the money if they wanted to.
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Report zilzal1 January 7, 2011 2:18 PM GMT
Lads are obviously putting a different interpretation on rule 4 b and the wording "original declarations" imo to the rest of them for bets struck after the 1st final declaration stage.

I think others have voided bets struck between that stage and the decision not to re open it
Report happysandwich January 7, 2011 9:15 PM GMT
Just read this on RP site :-

"NIGEL TWISTON-DAVIES has accused the BHA of not wanting the best horses in the William Hill King George VI Chase after it declined the trainer's request to allow Cheltenham Gold Cup winner Imperial Commander into the rescheduled race next Saturday.

Having scratched the ten-year-old from the original King George entries because of an injury picked up when winning the Betfair Chase, Twiston-Davies had initially said that the rearranged race would still come too soon in the aftermath of its abandonment over Christmas.

However, the trainer said on Friday: "When the meeting was abandoned initially, we had ruled it out, but then when we worked out when the day was and the way the horse is blossoming, we suddenly thought let's have a go.

"For me, surely it is sensible to put it back to the six-day stage and if it did, you could make a supplementary entry, but they seem to be determined to not have the best horses in the race. Why not put [the six-day stage] back? It's three weeks after."


This would mean that every punter who has backed KS at even's or odds on since IC was taken out on 6th December would now see KS installed at 11/8, which was the price when IC was still in it. I've always thought that someone with a double barrelled name is not quite the ticket, now I'm sure.

Running it with the eleven that stood their ground over Xmas is the fairest to everybody.

Headmaster
I don't know about WH NOT being consulted but surely the connections of the 11 runners were, do you not think?
Report red and white January 7, 2011 9:34 PM GMT
It would have been a better race with the Commander in it so it's hard lines the way things have worked out. Still don't think he could have won but would surely be a far more competitive race than last year's Kauto benefit romp. Roll on Cheltenham.
Report eric_morris January 7, 2011 9:43 PM GMT
Great decision by the BHA you cant change the whole complexion of the race just to suit one horse.
Report red and white January 7, 2011 9:58 PM GMT
I can understand NTD being upset to miss the opportunity if the horse has suddenly come into his own - and they know when that's the case. Disappointing for all racing fans (ignoring any financial interest). I think the KG is usually too close to his prep (rather than the track being a problem) so the extra couple of weeks could have been significant. I'm surprised NTD let off steam in public though.
Report eric_morris January 7, 2011 10:00 PM GMT
So every horse that is starting to go well at home can invite itself into the race ... great idea does this extend to the Festival as well.
Report red and white January 7, 2011 10:04 PM GMT
And we're off. Did I say that? Dickhead.
Report eric_morris January 7, 2011 10:10 PM GMT
Sorry? Why are you calling yourself a d1ckhead?
Report eric_morris January 7, 2011 10:17 PM GMT
If your comment was aimed at me I was passing my own comment on the article pasted above. I didnt read your comment tbh.
Report Panto Prince January 8, 2011 12:07 PM GMT
The only disappointment here is the desparation of connections to at first get their money back by getting it declared void and secondly then trying to weasel back in to get a run for their money.

The second is even more clueless - all it can do is damage the Gold Cup preparations and it beggars belief.

God knows how much they have had on - but surely it can't be enough to compensate for the Gold Cup?
Report eric_morris January 8, 2011 1:47 PM GMT
Panto Prince, if connections got their antepost stake money back, how could you then be sure it wouldnt have another setback and be ruled out late totally destroying the antepost market that people have been carrying risk on for months .. the only people gaining would be connections?
Report eric_morris January 8, 2011 1:51 PM GMT
... and other punters on here and elsewhere who backed him antepost before he was declared a none runner/loser well before Boxing Day.
Report Bobby Dazzler January 8, 2011 4:27 PM GMT
In all previous cases races not run within 5 days of their original date the races were reopened. In that case we would have been entitled to supplement Imperial Commander, and in our view we should have been. For reasons as yet unexplained they have gone against previous precedents.

Three further points -

1. Those who think that the motivation to enter IC was to recover ante-post stakes are simply deluded. The interest of the horse comes first. He is not a horse who likes the mundanity of repetitive training, and therefore a spin around Kempton would have been helpful in giving him variety on the way to the Gold Cup. It wasn't to be so we will use a number of race course gallops along the way.

2. Imperial Commander was withdrawn when he was because the KG has an additional declaration stage (although why is a mystery) and we knew at that stage that he had only a 10% to 20% change of running. On that basis neither owners or trainer wanted to see further money being placed on the horse when we were always going to take a very cautious approach in whether he ran or not.

3. In a professionally run sport any major event which is likely to be threatened by the weather would have a clearly laid out set of rules and a comprehensive contingency plan for the re-running of the race. in which case punters, spectators, owners and trainers would know exactly where they stand. But it is not a professionally run sport which is why it is falling apart and dying the death of a thousand cuts.
Report zilzal1 January 8, 2011 4:33 PM GMT
4. In any other sports they would probably want the best contestants competing against one another and would have done their damnest to ensure there was no stone unturned to make the possibilty of that happening.

Any comparisons with the Sprint Cup that was put on ONE week later can be discounted
Report eric_morris January 8, 2011 6:44 PM GMT
1. How much in total have the connections of Imperial Commander placed on the horse both with Betfair and bookmakers antepost for the King George? This money was lost as the horse was a none runner on Boxing Day. Regardless of opinions this money would be returned unjustly as the horse didnt make the advertised day of race. Many punters backing other horses in the race have carried their risk on the market for months with a chance of losing that, as you did, at any stage because their horse may have been ruled out.

2. The rerun is a snapshot of the Boxing Day race run at the same venue under the same conditions with horses who were declared to run on Boxing Day running. It is the same race as would have been settled on Boxing Day. There is absolutely no need to make new additions to the race as it is to be run as would have been on Boxing Day and therefore fair to all.

3. Every bookmaker has their own rules on bet settlement in these circumstances, check their rules.

4. The benefits to racing are immense if a horse can be compared to Desert Orchid to the public on the day as Kauto Star can be and surpass his achievement with 5 wins in the King George. Any horse that may have been allowed to enter the race late because it was now blossoming but wasnt able to run on Boxing Day, bearing in mind the race is fair to all as it is a snapshot of the Boxing Day entrants/venue, that may end up defeating Kauto Star, would see racing shooting itself in the leg massively.

5. The race sponsors WHill in scenario 5. would be massacred for influencing the date of the race leading to it being put further back than necessary where a horse that defeated Kauto Star would not have made the race if allowed in, had the race been run within a few days of Boxing Day when it was raceable at Kempton. This would have a negative effect on sponsors thinking of taking part in race sponsorship when racing needs exactly the opposite. WHill would also be accused of trying to avoid liabilities on Kauto Star by moving the race attempting to have it voided leading to refunding and allowing other opponents in late to strengthen the opposition to the favourite. This would be very very bad PR for them bearing in mind the vast majority of bets in the race will be on Kauto Star who has more than halved in price since antepost markets opened.
Report Chrisjcousins January 8, 2011 6:45 PM GMT
Sitting on a few quid @ 100-1 for The Nightingale, I've been desperate for the race to remain 'closed' to final declarations.

I could lay off at 30's but letting my few quid ride. Rain all week please :)
Report eric_morris January 8, 2011 6:45 PM GMT
typo  ... The race sponsors WHill in scenario 4.
Report eric_morris January 8, 2011 6:48 PM GMT
6. Reserve days should be arranged at Kempton in future years to pre-empt weather conditions to ensure a holiday audience.
Report aka January 9, 2011 2:25 AM GMT
BD wrote: 3. In a professionally run sport any major event which is likely to be threatened by the weather would have a clearly laid out set of rules and a comprehensive contingency plan for the re-running of the race. in which case punters, spectators, owners and trainers would know exactly where they stand. But it is not a professionally run sport which is why it is falling apart and dying the death of a thousand cuts.

Well expressed. At the very least, these are important issues that merit a considered and detailed response from the racing authorities and other interested parties, imo.

Is there adequate provision for contingency planning to cover situations where key races have to be re-scheduled? That is a question to which you would hope the racing authorities might give a considered response in the form of a public statement, following the concern so many racing enthusiasts have expressed about the handling of the postponement and rescheduling of the KG.

Would it be beneficial to have a more formalised statement of the rules relating to the re-opening of entries, or is it desirable to retain a more flexible approach? That is another question to which you would hope the racing authorities, in due course, would make available a considered response in the form of a public statement.

Another aspect of this is that we have variability in the rules applied by different bookmakers to ante-post bets. Some bookmakers have voided pre Boxing Day ante-post bets on the KG in accordance with their rules, while others who apply slightly different rules are letting those bets run. It surely makes it harder to market the sport effectively when anomalous situations of this kind are allowed to go uncorrected by those who govern the sport and exercise influence over the betting industry.

The average punter shouldn't need to be an assiduous reader of the small print in the bookmakers terms and conditions in order to know exactly where he or she stands with an ante-post bet when a race has been re-scheduled. The rules applied by bookmakers to ante-post bets should be consistent across the industry and, arguably, they also need to be easier to understand for the more recreational punter.

There will be punters watching the KG next Saturday believing they have ante-post vouchers running when, in actual fact, their vouchers have been voided. It would be harsh to say they should have paid more attention to the small print of their bookies terms and conditions, when there is a lack of consistency in the rules applied across the industry to situations such as the one we have with the re-arranged KG.

How many bookmakers have taken the trouble to email their customers to let them know what the situation is regarding original ante-post bets on the re-arranged KG? There will be a few perhaps. But for the most part the matter will be addressed with a lack of courtesy not untypical of an industry that has little confidence in itself and little vision of how to relate better to its customer base.
Report R Carver January 9, 2011 9:39 AM GMT
Spot on AKA.
Report eric_morris January 9, 2011 10:48 AM GMT
It may be asking a bit much to expect every single bookmaker to align their rules to agree for every single circumstance which can occur.

Pre-arranged reserve days around major races would solve 90% of cases imo.


6. Reserve days should be arranged at Kempton in future years to pre-empt weather conditions to ensure a holiday audience.
Report SEATHESTARS....NO1 January 9, 2011 11:37 AM GMT
Agree with most of the above, except the bit about emaiing clients etc. You cannot possibly expect a bookmaker to personally email every client to which have had a wager on a particular race, the logistics of which would surely be immense! Also, as a gambler whom places wagers, it is the gamblers responsibility to govern his/her position. If you or anyone else has vouchers for the KG that they have not checked and re-checked with their bookmaker whether the fact their bets have been voided or not is just silly imo.
Report The Headmaster January 9, 2011 12:12 PM GMT
In all previous cases races not run within 5 days of their original date the races were reopened. In that case we would have been entitled to supplement Imperial Commander, and in our view we should have been. For reasons as yet unexplained they have gone against previous precedents.

This amazing line that 'all previous races....etc.' seems to have been plucked from thin air! Absolute nonsense, although I'm wondering if wrong terminology is clouding the issue.  For instance, if a race is reopened you don't need to supplement.  If it's reopened it's reopened so you can just enter your horse like everyone else.  I don't know if Nigel's feeding you these lines, BD? You need to talk to someone who'll give you the facts, if so.

2. Imperial Commander was withdrawn when he was because the KG has an additional declaration stage (although why is a mystery) and we knew at that stage that he had only a 10% to 20% change of running. On that basis neither owners or trainer wanted to see further money being placed on the horse when we were always going to take a very cautious approach in whether he ran or not.

Very confused wording, and sentiments, again, BD, but anyway - the BHA asked Kempton to introduce a scratching stage.  On one hand you say it's a mystery why it's there - but then go on to say punters were at the top of your consideration and that's why you scratched him.   Guess what - the BHA were also thinking of punters which is why that scratching stage is in there, so that horses who have had their targets adjusted can come out and people can stop backing non-runners.  Without it, IC would not have come out of the race and money would have continued to be lost on him. Hope that clears up the mystery. 

3. In a professionally run sport any major event which is likely to be threatened by the weather would have a clearly laid out set of rules and a comprehensive contingency plan for the re-running of the race. in which case punters, spectators, owners and trainers would know exactly where they stand. But it is not a professionally run sport which is why it is falling apart and dying the death of a thousand cuts.

Quite amusing that you're accusing people of a lack of professionalism when both you and your trainer are coming across as total amateurs.  There is an alarming lack of knowledge regarding the most basic aspects of racing administration here.  You don't appear to know the difference between an entry stage, scratching stage or declaration stage, BD, or what you can and cannot do at any of those stages - which, I think, is where the majority of your frustrations are coming from.
Report happysandwich January 9, 2011 3:44 PM GMT
Headmaster

You've certainly picked on BD and unnessacarly and gratuitously caned his ar$e there haven't you? LaughLaugh

AKA

A well appreciated post, thanks - let's hope the BHA read it.Happy
Report Bobby Dazzler January 9, 2011 4:37 PM GMT
Headmaster

From your prior and latest post it would appear that you have some empathy and connection with the current BHA heirarchy (I may be drawing this conclusion unfairly, but in my experience the only people who support this shambles are those who are part of the private club in some shape or form. If you are not then I apologise).

In my time posting on this forum (likely to be short lived given the way it is going)I have always been transparent as to my position and motivations. I have never entered into some of the vitriol (including some on this thread) or abusive exchanges which have dogged the forum, and driven away some of the best contributors. I have always answered questions honestly albeit from my own (declared) position. The views of many of the forums members have been insightful, some of the threads have been a delight.

However in this case I may be about to stretch my own standards.
   
To respond to your intial point;

Without going into detail it is clear from discussions we held that they had no idea what to do next, and spent two days making up there minds. You know full well that NTD has never suggested that the race was fully reopened, simply that it was reopened to the previous declaration stage. Under all previous precedents (accepted in our conversations with the authorities) races run more than five days after the race were reopened to the previous entry stage. Under the current entry conditions we were entitled to supplement IC up until 6 days before the day of the race, had they reopened to the previous stage we would have been entitled to supplement up until the 9th January 2011. I personally have no frustration whatsoever at the decision, under the current rules the actual decision is discretionary as no fixed structure for the rearrangement of the race in the case of cancellation was in place. 

As the head of the partnership I undertook the discussions with the trainer on how we would proceed. I am not aware of any ante-post interest in the race from any other owner, nor have I discussed it at them at any stage. I wouldn't have expected otherwise as they are not major punters in any shape or form. My own interest is £150 each way at 16/1 - a potential net return of £3000 which was hardly likely to be a motivation to pay £10,000 to supplement IC.


my frustration lies on a far wider scale with the parasitic heirarchy that has over the last 20 years driven this sport to its knees.

Indeed even if your charge against the trainer and my goodself as "coming across as amateurs" is proven - then the consequences of actions will be to our own account.

In the case of the BHA their actions are destroying a sport - 28 committees of inbred arogance, incompetance and self interest. Never in history has a business (let alone an industry) driven to its knees by an incompetent managment team been rescued by the same group of hapless individuals. But such is the strength of self interest and self conceit of the old boys network in this organisation that they regrouped, decided they quite liked the way things were and resolved to form a 29th committee.

It has come as no great surprise to anyone that Racing For Change rapidly developed into Racing For Small Change with the result that we are now racing for loose change.

If you are amused by my previous post try reading the Horsemans Group Submission Of British Racing To The 50th Levy scheme it is a scream, although a little far fetched. Its sister volume British Racing’s response to the Levy Board’s consultation on Betting Exchanges is even funnier, but a little far fetched to follow.

Indeed even Deloitte (who were commissioned by the BHA to produce a report on the Economic impact of British Racing) couldn't follow it, concluding that all three of the methods used to support their claim for £120m to £150m of levy funding lacked quantum, substance and credibility. 

In your chosen guise of headmaster this merits more than a mere 'F' grading and endorsement of must do better in thick red pen. I am attracted to the thought of a visit to the headmaster's study with the telephone book down their trousers to receive a sound thrashing. But in reality the only correct course of action is instant expulsion.

The BHA's insistence that racing deserves an unprecedented increase in the levy at a time of deep recession (and at a time when everyone else is cutting back) is not amateurish. It is delusionary,and reveals the tenuos grip of reality that pervades the BHA. It stinks of the air of self importance, self interest in maintaining the status quo and huge egos that are blighting the future of this sport.

Indeed trying to construct an argument as to racings reasonable needs relied entirely on the acceptance of fact that racing was a well run business. Yet against a background of declining funding over a number of years the BHA watched administration costs double to over £30 million whilst they sat in their costly London boudoir. Most of these increased costs were of course met by owners (including me) who have little choice in the matter. The bookmakers who do, and who understand how to run a business took all appropriate steps to stop funding this incestuos gravy train. 

They failed to understand the implications of Betfair and other betting exchanges both on the bookmakers who funded the levy and on racing as a whole. They stood back and watched as the racecourses sold the media rights pocketed the proceeds, rendered helpless by the controlling influence of the racecourses which runs through every layer of their structure, (Club rule number 1 - no club member shall act in a way that would impinge on any other members nice little earner). The rules are of course an ancient and well guarded secret, and I am seem to be in good company in failing to understand them. Jim McGraw (one of only two independent directors) clearly didn't find it easy. He mistakenly supposed that two officials of a racecourse would be required to declare a position of conflict when chairing a meeting charged with deciding on whether to proceed with the tastiest of all earners(for the club members not the owners who will fund it by taking further cuts in their current lunch allowance!). He assumed this as the nominated beneficiary was indeed the course at which they held office. In disbelief he approaced the commander in chief, who put his arm around his shoulder and whispered club rule 2 into his shell like. (Club rule 2 - All club members shall be entitled to make their own judgement as to when they face a conflict of interests. No club member will be considered to be conflicted when by doing so they would lose out on a nice little earner).   

Discovering that the organisation he joined was lacking any integrity, morale fibre or leadership he resigned. At BHA headquarters they breathed a sigh of relief, they had always known it was a mistake to invite those sort of people from the outside to join the club.   


We therefore shouldn’t be surprised that the commander in chief of the self is first brigade is still in charge after the discovery that his city firm invested heavily in Betfair when the exchange floated. As he has repeatedly issued (albeit now hollow) claims that Betfair is bleeding money from racing, buying its shares suggested that either he is very stupid (I am prepared to concede that could well be the case), that he employs very stupid people (his track record at the BHA could indicate this is also a live possibility), or that in his list of priorities, racing comes well behind his own further enrichment and comfort. None of these scenarios makes him or his lap dogs fit for office.


So in answer to your final point I don't think either myself or NTD have any real hope of "coming across as total amateurs" - the standards being set are simply beyond our capability !
Report trev w January 9, 2011 5:48 PM GMT
headmasters been servedMischief
Report downallstar January 9, 2011 5:57 PM GMT
Your most welcome on purple Bobby.
Report turnip turns January 9, 2011 5:59 PM GMT
Agreed ^
Report eric_morris January 9, 2011 6:01 PM GMT
Not sure what that all has to do with this issue tbh, getting off track a little imo. The correct decision has been taken re the King George as exhaustively covered above by previous postings whereby the race is a snapshot of that which would have been run on Boxing Day, same venue/conditons/horses.

Attempts by connections to re-instate a legitimate Boxing Day none runner at the cost of destroying everybody's antepost books which they have risked for months losing their money on will probably ensure you wont be posting on here much longer imo. You have no regard for punters who you are posting alongside, well except for those on your own horse antepost.
Report Tucho January 9, 2011 6:04 PM GMT
he's already said it's not about destroying your antepost book kirk, change the record
Report eric_morris January 9, 2011 6:08 PM GMT
Words on that mean nothing. Why dont you start an owners forum most would be chuffed to be able to afford to own horses quit the whinging this is a betting forum.
Report SEATHESTARS....NO1 January 9, 2011 7:05 PM GMT
Bobby Dazzler, i got to about half way down that 'article' and got bored so gave up. (i didn't understand it though either like which is probably partly why i got bored)

In no way is IC entitled to be a runner in the KG! He was withdrawn at a stage of declaration! The very fact that the same 11 should line up on the new date makes it the fairest solution for all concerned whom paid their money to race at all the declaration stages along the way. Only an act of god prevented the race from being allowed to run.

The very fact the BHA have not re-opened the race is a good one and can only be good for the sport. This should be a precedent for all races this happens to and i do concur that some get re-opened and some don't and that is unfair.

The fairest thing to do in this instance is to only allow the 11 to line up, thus giving KAUTO STAR the best opportunity and fairest chance to make history, this can only be good for the sport and if he can do it then surely racing will get at least one mention on front page press at least for one day!
Report eric_morris January 9, 2011 7:12 PM GMT
I'll summarize it for you. People in high places feathering their own nests and furthering their own self-interests financially or otherwise, for example those who can afford to own Ferrari's, racehorses, MP's with expenses may not always act in the interests of the majority in order to further their own selfish means. They may have gotten their money while not taking into account the interests of the majority and also while not exhibiting competency (basically anyone who has ever had a boss will know what this means). Some may also act like spoilt children when they dont get their own way was not added to the text.
Report trev w January 9, 2011 7:20 PM GMT
lets look at it another way...IF KS had pulled out at the same time..for a minor injury...but was in rude health before final decisions were made...
would the race have been re-opened...of course it fukkin would have.Cool
Report eric_morris January 9, 2011 7:22 PM GMT
It would not have been. All of the horses in the race should face the opponents they would have faced on Boxing Day. That is fairest to everybody involved in the race and imo this is what would have happened irrelevant though your point is.
Report trev w January 9, 2011 7:29 PM GMT
they would have bent over backwards to get KS in.fact
fair or not.
irrelevant though are as a poster.
Report The Headmaster January 9, 2011 7:36 PM GMT
Not sure what that all has to do with this issue tbh, getting off track a little imo. Got that right, ybm.

To drag it back on track a little - BD...When races are taken back to the confirmation stage, the runners left in AFTER midday on the day of confirmation are carried forward.  To supplement a horse, you need to put him in BEFORE midday on the day of confirmation.  What you and Nigel should have called for, was the race being re-opened completely (everything scrapped and a new initial entry date issued) or taken back to just before (so you were still in) or just after (so you could supplement) the scratching stage. Although I totally understand why you didn't as those requests would be laughable.

What you're actually calling for, and which you say is the usual proceedure - the race going back to the 5 or 6 day 'declaration' (confirmation) stage - is still a stage too late to get Imperial Commander back in the race.  There is no vendetta, no incompitence, no bending of the rules to keep the Commander out.  Quite the opposite - it is impossible to justify getting him in. Do you get that?
Report eric_morris January 9, 2011 7:36 PM GMT
What is the point of that desperate line of discussion. Shall we discuss another 1000 situations that are not possible?

The correct decision has been made and that is in the interests of the 11 horses who declared on Boxing Day, giving them all the same chance as if it had been run on the day (ground conditions aside) as the opposition ids the same and it has preserved the antepost market for those carrying risk for so long. Only those who fairly lost their money with none runners before Boxing Day could be unhappy with this fair arrangement and prefer something less fair in their own interests against the interests of the majority.
Report SEATHESTARS....NO1 January 9, 2011 8:29 PM GMT
Alright all put is another way then.


Imperial Commander non runner = pocket = CryCryCry
Report SEATHESTARS....NO1 January 9, 2011 8:31 PM GMT
Very well said eric_morris
Report Sankara January 9, 2011 9:42 PM GMT
BHA making itself look amateurish as usual - a 19th century club running a 21st century sport. The surprise is that anyone's surprised.
Report eric_morris January 9, 2011 11:07 PM GMT
The BHA have made an excellent decision fair to all here. Fair as all of the horses in the race on Boxing Day will face the opponents they would have faced on Boxing Day. That is fairest to everybody involved in the race.
Report sofiakenny January 10, 2011 12:59 AM GMT
i backed ic and sizing eurpoe without kauto...if i lose my ic cash fair enough..but surely i dont deserve to lose on sizing...if race was run on 26 12 10 it woulda run..15 1 11 is a different year than scheduled race..the sponsors ie hill billies are stealing from decent punters.
Report grade 1 January 10, 2011 7:20 AM GMT
Lets look at it another way...IF KS had pulled out at the same time..for a minor injury...but was in rude health before final decisions were made...
would the race have been re-opened...of course it fukkin would have.Cool


Agreed trev. The race is poorer for IC's absence ( as is the christmas hurdle for soldatinos) . Facilitating races for owners/trainers which will attract maximum public interest( and therefore betting turnover) is surely close to being the primary purpose of the BHA. Failed all stakeholders with this decision. Poor show imo.

Bobby ..dont let the bstrds grind you down. Though DAS and TT make a good suggestion.
Report eric_morris January 10, 2011 7:47 AM GMT
sofiakenny ... Sizing Europe is highly likely to run according to an insider on here (see the Sizing Europe thread) so that is unlikely to be a consideration. Officially the horse has not been ruled out or in anyway.
Report eric_morris January 10, 2011 7:53 AM GMT
sofiakenny ... Sizing Europe is highly likely to run according to an insider on here (see the Sizing Europe thread) so that is unlikely to be a consideration. Officially the horse has not been ruled out or in anyway.
Report eric_morris January 10, 2011 8:06 AM GMT
Thr race could not be fairer with the same runners as on Boxing Day and is hopefully going to produce new enthusiasts to racing.

Can you imagine the effect on racing of front pages stating Kauto Star has surpassed the great Desert Orchid's achievements in his most prolific race, the public will sit up and take notice of that so popular was Dessie and you would struggle to remember the opportunity to promote racing more.

The whole of racing with the exception of connections of those hoping to spoil this party, whose horse was a none runner well before Boxing Day and therefore a legitimate none participant, are looking forward immensely to the race. Racing For Change will be boosted by this event greatly and the BHA should be congratulated for remaining strong in making this correct decision to all but the minority.
Report SEATHESTARS....NO1 January 10, 2011 8:45 AM GMT
eric_morris where or which sizing europe thread is there an insider saying SE is a certain runner please? I read somewhere last week that he is sure to be flown over instead of boat and looking on here he is still trading at 22 with plenty of money wanting to back meaning nothing is known as yet. He was however trading at the 17 mark before the last abandonement suggesting to me he is still 50/50 with a late decision to be made.

I for one wish De Bromhead would hurry up and tell us whether or not he is coming over, after all it is now Monday morning and such logistics of booking flights or boats must have had to been done by now etc. So many trainers are now very good with the press and letting the public no about high profile horses but unfortunately there are still some that keep their mouths shut too long imo.

Yes i have backed SE in the w/o KS market with hills on the 15th Dec' so i will lose my doe should he not run and yes i think that is fair enough, i paid my money i take that chance with antepost!
Report zilzal1 January 10, 2011 9:39 AM GMT
Could you imagine the effect of KS being denied in the different scenario of him being denied by the BHA by NOT re opening the race, the Media would have been climbing all over the BHA about it.

The only similar scenario for a race that has been put back further than a week was the 1978 Cheltenham Gold Cup.

Its a bit rich for Eric to try to tell people to go to other forums, ive looked on the list on the left hand side and cant find one for Egotistical bores.
Report eric_morris January 10, 2011 10:34 AM GMT
I am not telling anyone to go to other forums if you read above, however others certainly are. The posters who have gone to the other forum after denegrading this one seem to spend an awful lot of their time posting on here thats for sure. Agreeing with each other all the time must get boring after a while I would assume.

The race is on for Saturday cant wait for this snapshot of the Boxing Day race to take place Kauto Star hopefully will become as well known as Dessie with the public making the build up to the Gold Cup of tremendous importance to racing and those making the race ok.
Report SEATHESTARS....NO1 January 10, 2011 11:11 AM GMT
I've been a spectator for this thread for a while, couldn't really be bothered to put anything into it till the other day, this will be the last time i do as seems to me the only people squealing about this being unfair is people who have lost their doe on IC and are feeling hard done by.

This is the fairest outcome to a race which could end up with a racehorse that could end up a household name (he should deservadly already imo)

Them that have paid their dues are entitled to take part, them that got scratched have no right. Simples and get over it ffs!
Report The Headmaster January 10, 2011 11:42 AM GMT
Is anyone able to get their heads round the fact that if the race had been sent back to the confirmation stage IMPERIAL COMMANDER STILL WOUDLN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET IN THE KING GEORGE???????
Report Just So January 10, 2011 12:10 PM GMT
Let's step back for a second and suppose it was Kauto Star who was in Imperial Commander's position of being injured / not recovering quickly enough / being removed from the race / seeing it moved to 20 days later / now being fit to race etc. In those circumstances, wouldn't the BHA have made sure to arrange matters such that Kauto Star was able to participate in the rescheduled race? - bl**dy right they would (and quite right too IMHO) - anyone suggesting otherwise is deluded.

And before anyone jumps down my throat alleging anti-Kauto bias - this is categorically not the case - I am only using his example to illustrate the point - in my observation from the outside the same rules do not seem to apply to all.

Bobby - would completely understand if you chose not to participate here any more in view of some of the above but it would be poorer without you. Your contributions are appreciated by many so please stick around if you can.
Report SEATHESTARS....NO1 January 10, 2011 12:29 PM GMT
The answer to your question just so is NO. I do not think he will be able to get in at all. As it would therefore not be fair.

And who is Bobby? I often here people referring to forumites as you have just done. Yes a lot of people have very good heads on them and they are always missed when they go. But i really do not think 'celebrities' use it. Until i am proven wrong like.
Report R Carver January 10, 2011 1:06 PM GMT
Just So - Bobby - would completely understand if you chose not to participate here any more in view of some of the above but it would be poorer without you. Your contributions are appreciated by many so please stick around if you can.

Ditto. RC.
Report eric_morris January 10, 2011 1:23 PM GMT
Anyone who doesnt believe in fairness to all may want to leave the forum, lol I have heard everything now. Who cares, everyone is equal on here that is the beauty of it, democracy at work over the ruling classes .. just as the inventor of the internet intended. Forumites on first name terms with bobby such as Just So can make recommendations for them to leave the forum via other means rather than acting like big twisty kids on here.
Report snaafi dancer January 10, 2011 1:25 PM GMT
Hope you keep posting bobby. Your thread leading up to and after last
years gold cup was one of the best i've read on here.
Fingers crossed i'm going to my first king george on sat and would have been
fantastic to see two great champions take each other on, but unfortunately
its not to be. Still your cloud may have its silver lining in march as missing
the race may end up being for the best for IC.

I have one question concerning this withdrawal/scratching stage. How much would
it have cost to keep IC in the race at that stage ?
Given what has happened do you think in future times owners in  similar circumstances
may just leave their horse in and pay the relatively small fee. This would of course
be to punters detriment but at the end of the day if something unforseeable happens
and a race is abandoned then it would be to your best advantage, if that would be the
case then surely the BHA have scored a major own goal here.
Report eric_morris January 10, 2011 1:37 PM GMT
I've never conversed with him though if I had I wouldnt let it cloud my vision over what is fair and what is not fair to all. It is up to individuals if they want to post on here or not, are we in a playground here lol.

It is obviously nothing personal to anyone this discussion, though certain supporters seem to be trying to imply it is that way ... totally out of order really.

Just read the thread again it is perfectly clear that this is a fair decision to all, a snapshot of the Boxing Day race will be run on Saturday and we will hopefully see front page news made with a photo of Dessie and Kauto Star alongside him ... you cant attract public attention to racing better than that.
Report eric_morris January 10, 2011 1:39 PM GMT
The BHA have shown firm leadership on this and ensured a fair race reflecting Boxing Day declared horses will take place such that their chances are the same as if the race had been run that day, ground aside.
Report Sankara January 10, 2011 2:12 PM GMT
I presume by firm leadership, eric, you mean statements like this one, from the BHA's spokesman Paul Struthers:

“Sometimes rescheduled races are reopened to the six-day stage and sometimes it is just for the horses which were declared to run. On this occasion, I think because the race was abandoned after the 48-hour declarations and it is being run at the same track, that is what they decided to do."

Firm indeed.
Report eric_morris January 10, 2011 2:22 PM GMT
I mean the result of their decision is fair to all horses and connections who made the race on Boxing Day. Part of the challenge as we know with distant races is getting the horse there. Those that made it on Boxing Day will be meeting each other in a snapshot of the race, totally fair to everyone, anyone arguing otherwise is deluded.
Report Mayweather January 10, 2011 2:23 PM GMT
Bets should not be voided. I am on Kauto Star at 9/4 so be quiet. All bets stand. Imperial Commander bets are losers.
Report eric_morris January 10, 2011 2:25 PM GMT
All 11 originally declared horses have been left in at the 48 hour decs stage. Snapshot of Boxing Day's race on the cards.
Report The Headmaster January 10, 2011 2:38 PM GMT
Sankara, do you accept/understand/care, that IF the race had been reset to the 6 day confirmation stage, Imperial Commander would still not have been able to particpate in the King George?
Report buddeliea January 10, 2011 5:34 PM GMT
Snaafi Dancer,
We do not want horses being kept in the race if they cannot run through injury,which is why IC was pulled out.If i backed a horse that connections knew was not going to run i would be bl00dy furious,so would anyone.
Report The Headmaster January 10, 2011 5:52 PM GMT
The Guardian's view:

Assuming that the King George VI Chase finally takes place at Kempton on Saturday, the fact that the 2010 renewal was staged in 2011 will soon be of major interest only to trivia freaks and pedants. The reference books will list it as the 2010 race and the who, what and where will be of much more significance than the when, not least if Kauto Star makes history with his fifth win in a row.
A quarter of a century ago, he would not have had the chance and there are several earlier gaps in the King George's roll of honour to underline the point. But you will never please everyone and, while the theory of saving big races wherever possible is now generally accepted, the practice is another matter.
The trainer Nigel Twiston-Davies, for instance, was upset to discover that Imperial Commander, the Gold Cup winner, would not be able to run in the rescheduled event, since he was not among the final declarations for the original. Others complain that Kempton was raceable within a few days of the traditional Boxing Day meeting and that it should have been run then. And then there are various betting-related issues, which are not assisted by the absence of a unified rule book for British betting.
Some of these complaints are intertwined, of course, with the ante-post backers of Imperial Commander being the most obvious group hoping to get an unexpected run for their money. Allowing him back into the race, however, would cause no end of problems, as anyone who had had a bet after the final declarations were made before Christmas could argue – quite rightly – that they had been lured into staking their money under false pretences.
Clearly you cannot have a situation in which punters could potentially place bets on a race after the final field is published and then watch their horse finish second to a runner that was not in the declarations.
But neither is it an option to return the race to the six-day stage and allow a supplementary entry, as Twiston-Davies suggests, because re-opening the race would make all ante-post bets – including those on Kauto Star - void with most bookmakers anyway. You cannot have two final declaration stages. The clue is in the name.
Twiston-Davies can argue all he likes that the British Horseracing Authority "does not want the best horses in the race", but the decision is the fairest one when the interests of all concerned – owners, trainers and punters – are taken into account. And if any backers of Imperial Commander want to argue the toss, the man to seek out is Twiston-Davies, not Kempton or the BHA.
It was clear for at least a week before Christmas that Kempton was touch-and-go, with the knock-on possibility that the King George would eventually take place as late as mid-January. It would not have cost much for Twiston-Davies to declare Imperial Commander in order to keep his options open in the event of an abandonment.
Paul Nicholls, for instance, did just that with The Nightingale, since it was possible that a rescheduled race would be run on heavy ground. Nicholls thought things through and took a punt, and, if the market is any guide, his foresight will be rewarded with a very good showing by The Nightingale on Saturday.
As for the mid-January date, when Kempton might have raced in late December, what needs to be remembered about the King George is that it is not just a big race, but a show that needs an audience, both at the track and on television.
Many make time for it in their busy Christmas schedules, but the idea that they will simply re-arrange everything again later on in the week is questionable, to say the least. A race like this one deserves – and needs - a decent run-up and in this slot, that is just what it will get.
Report snaafi dancer January 10, 2011 6:45 PM GMT
bud i agree,
but the simple fact is the way things have transpired in the xmas
hurdle and king george you could not blame connections for keeping horses in
future races till the last possible moment if there was a chance of similar weather
conditions in the run up to big races. This is where i think the BHA need to be more
flexible as owners doing that would result in punters getting a very raw deal.
Report eric_morris January 10, 2011 6:51 PM GMT
There is no issue here the field is the same as Boxing Day, fair to all the BHA have done a great job.
Report The Headmaster January 10, 2011 6:53 PM GMT
Couldn't the owner or trainer simply say - 'the horse is fooked but we're leaving him in because the forecast's grim and the race might be abandoned and rescheduled'?
Report The Headmaster January 10, 2011 6:57 PM GMT
I note BD has not come on this thread, despite posting on others, since it was explained to him that he was asking for the race to go back to a stage that IC still wouldn't be allowed into.

Hopefully the penny has dropped, at last.
Report SEATHESTARS....NO1 January 10, 2011 6:59 PM GMT
The field aint likely to be the same though is it not now, look at SIZING EUROPE'S price, 32 [:(] to back and last matched at 90Shocked! Looks a non runner if this market as anything to go by but no news yetCry! Also if this rain comes, will Albertas run or planet of sound still run if its a bogConfused?


I agree that this is the fairest option as stated above a few times but wont stop horses dropping out which is sure to happen this week by the looks of it!
Report eric_morris January 10, 2011 7:07 PM GMT
Unfortunately we cant control the weather SEATHESTARS. No decision has been made he is 50/50 apparently. It could be spoofing on the markets to get a better price. Be very surprised if he didnt show up.
Report happysandwich January 10, 2011 7:20 PM GMT
This thread is now dead, this is the new one for the 'complaint’s brigade'.

“My horse didn’t win the King George because it was run three weeks too late”

Who’s going to start it ?
Not me – I was on Kauto Star. LaughLaugh
Report kevo January 11, 2011 8:41 PM GMT
happysandwich     05 Jan 11 23:29 
Just heard from a reliable source close to the stable that Sizeing Europe is highly likely to run and will be flown over instead of boat..

"reliable source close to the stable"
Report happysandwich January 11, 2011 9:50 PM GMT
Kevo
You stalking me?
Iv'e already told you Iv'e lumped on Kauto Star, had £400 @ 11/8 with Will Hills on 6th Dec., the day that Bobbydazzler told us the 2nd fav IC would be pulled out, not as I mistakenly stated 20th Dec.on a previous post.
Hope this helps any problem you have.

The 'reliable source' was a poster on GG.com who's father works for the owner of Sizeing Europe and he keeps that forum updated whenever he gets any information. I wasn't telling anyone to go ahead and back SE, just trying to help allay the fears of those on this forum who had. Obviously you have and you need someone to have a go at.

Kevo 05 Jan 11 23:40 
So why haven't you mopped up the 20's still available "happysandwich"? looks a decent price for a certain runner?

Kevo 06 Jan 11 00:19 
So "happysandwich" you or your "reliable source" do not want to take advantage of a free back to lay at +20's on Sizing Europe who, if he turns up for the gig; will go off at a lot shorter price?
Report kevo January 11, 2011 10:25 PM GMT
I am not stalking you happysandwich, but when you post on here with "I have heard from a reliable source" and your source turned out to be completely unreliable; then I repeat what I posted at the time "happysandwich" knows sweet fa about this horse.
Report happysandwich January 11, 2011 11:28 PM GMT
Tucho Joined: 06 Jan 07
Replies: 396 06 Jan 11 00:31 
Is the source on the gg.com forum? He does seem to be genuine tbf.

happysandwich Joined: 06 May 10
Replies: 28 06 Jan 11 01:03 
yes.

kevo Joined: 17 Mar 03
Replies: 114 06 Jan 11 00:31 
well I chucked £10 in at 26's 3 hours ago just in case SZ does turn up, I think "happysandwich" knows sweet fa about this horse.



And you 'chucked all of £10' on it at 26/1 three hours before I posted just incase it turned up ?

Let's just hope that no one else reads this post for your sake. LaughLaugh
Report Panto Prince January 12, 2011 10:53 AM GMT
Happysandwich comes accross as a really nice fella - not smug or gloating at all Cry
Report zilzal1 January 12, 2011 2:36 PM GMT
Matt Chapman puts the opposite view in the Weekender, wonder how Kauto fans would have felt if he'd have gone lame in these three weeks, we had a opportunity to put it on another bank holiday the next week.

Dont tell me it cant be done, Lord Gyllene's connections are glad that they lived in more flexible times


Anyway "This snapshot of the race of 26/12" will have at least one family member missing, much to the disappointment of his supporters who "Built" their ante post book leading up to the race, i wonder if all supporters are equal??
Report Mayweather January 12, 2011 3:02 PM GMT
Ha Ha - Twistobn Davies is a mug for even thinking about racing Kauto at Kempton. He has been killed by the horse twice before lol
Report ELG January 12, 2011 5:53 PM GMT
whats happened to Sizing Euro's plane please?
Report ELG January 12, 2011 5:55 PM GMT
someone on this thread (not naming names) said he was informed from a reliable source the horsie was being flown over :o
Report The Headmaster January 12, 2011 6:36 PM GMT
Completely clueless stuff from Chapman, I'm afraid, zilzal.

What if, what if, what if....yawn...

What you on about Lord Gyllene for anyway?!?! Laugh
Report zilzal1 January 12, 2011 6:51 PM GMT
Why, because it differs from yours??, How arrogant.

Aintree managed to stage a race 48 hours later so why couldnt Kempton have arranged a meeting on the 2nd/3rd of Jan for a start??, i notice you gave The Sprint cup for a precedent when it was run ONE WEEK later, well name me a example THREE weeks later?, The only one i remember was the 78 Gold Cup where Ante Post bets were voided.

Where there's a will, there's a way, and racing SHOULD be about the best horses facing each other, ask most fans and id think they would agree with me.

As i said, there have been enough people asking for refunds on Sizing Europe, Three weeks is quite a time for something NOT to happen to 11 Horses, id imagine the BHA said prayers each night for Kauto's well being.

Oh and im not surprised Bobby hasnt come back on when he's told to sod off to a owners forum, he has been very open with people on here and gets slagged off for ex expressing a opinion about events surrounding his horse.
Report The Headmaster January 12, 2011 6:57 PM GMT
Someone disagrees with you and that makes them arrogant, zilzal?  Poor.

The Grand National has no relevance at all to this case - decs were carried over and Aintree could race.

Bobby hasn't come on because he realises what he's been asking for was daft as it wouldn't get his horse back in the race.  I'd imagine he's slightly red-faced tbh, althnough I certainly have not alleged anything underhand, as others have done.  Just think he didn't really know what he was talking about.

...and what is it with the '78 Gold Cup ffs man????? Laugh
Report zilzal1 January 12, 2011 7:03 PM GMT
Riverside Boy looks a n/r now, Albertas may follow, looks like Ladbrokes were right to call it a rule 4 race, Hills seem to be refunding on a a case by case basis, it could end up hardly resembling the 26/12 field

I mention the 78 Gold Cup ONLY BECAUSE everyone knew where they stood, it was run around 2/3 weeks later without any fuss and PUNTERS, Racings CUSTOMERS, were refunded after the event was abandoned, and not kept in limbo
Report The Headmaster January 12, 2011 7:20 PM GMT
...and I'd imagine those in any sort of healthy ante-post position were absolutely fuming.
Report zilzal1 January 12, 2011 7:47 PM GMT
Dont imagine that backers of Sizing or Riverside who dont get a refund will be jumping for joy...
Report red and white January 12, 2011 8:51 PM GMT
Poor eric. Let’s see if he can work out how he’s compromised himself by studying the following exchange with trev w, taken from this thread. It may take him some time so please don’t be harsh to him over the coming years.

Exhibit 1:
trev w                                         09 Jan 11 19:20
lets look at it another way. If KS had pulled out at the same time for a minor injury but was in rude health before final decisions were made would the race have been re-opened...of course it fukkin would have.

Exhibit2:
eric_****                                    09 Jan 11 19:22   
It would not have been. All of the horses in the race should face the opponents they would have faced on Boxing Day. That is fairest to everybody involved in the race and imo this is what would have happened irrelevant though your point is.

Exhibit 3:
eric_****                                    10 Jan 11 08:06
Can you imagine the effect on racing of front pages stating Kauto Star has surpassed the great Desert Orchid's achievements in his most prolific race, the public will sit up and take notice of that so popular was Dessie and you would struggle to remember the opportunity to promote racing more.

The whole of racing with the exception of connections of those hoping to spoil this party, whose horse was a none runner well before Boxing Day and therefore a legitimate none participant, are looking forward immensely to the race. Racing For Change will be boosted by this event greatly and the BHA should be congratulated for remaining strong in making this correct decision to all but the minority.
Report Just So January 12, 2011 8:52 PM GMT
"Bobby hasn't come on because he realises what he's been asking for was daft as it wouldn't get his horse back in the race.  I'd imagine he's slightly red-faced tbh, althnough I certainly have not alleged anything underhand, as others have done.  Just think he didn't really know what he was talking about."

you dont half love yourself pal.
Report Tavaris Jackson January 13, 2011 1:35 AM GMT
I don't have a bet in this race and may or may not come the day.

This situation is disgraceful though.
All bets should have been refunded when the Jan 15th date was set and a new market formed.

2006 King George: Kauto Star
2007 King George: Kauto Star
2008 King George: Kauto Star
2009 King George: Kauto Star
2010 King George: Kauto Star*

* The Gold Cup holder was denied entry to the race despite the race being run 3 weeks after the scheduled date.
Report The Sawyer January 13, 2011 9:42 AM GMT
Clive Inman 50 off 11 balls in 8 minutes*

* full tosses were bowled to expedite a declaration.

Spot on TJ
Report The Headmaster January 13, 2011 10:30 AM GMT
Just So - no 'pal', I just know what I'm talking about.  Although you are correct in that I'm very happy in my own skin thanks.  Maybe if you took your head out of BD's bum you could learn to love yerself too?
Report Just So January 13, 2011 11:05 AM GMT
Bravo headmaster, bravo.
Report Autocue January 13, 2011 1:13 PM GMT
The BHA, who presumably meet on Mount Olympus, are showing themselves to be in the business of creating and preserving a chosen few idols for the masses to worship. They would sell their souls to attract a bigger audience.
Report eric_morris January 15, 2011 3:30 PM GMT
Bottom line is this race wont be figuring in anyone's antepost bets in future unless they want to tie up money and carry risk for a long time then have it voided when bad weather hits.

Our climate now pretty much ensures this is going to happen frequently so currently unless they clarify the race will be rerun within a few days if possible (as it would have been this season) and so not voiding then forget it as a betting proposition.
Report zilzal1 January 15, 2011 3:33 PM GMT
A few wish it had have been made void now!!!


One year and he calls it frequentlyLaugh
Report Autocue January 15, 2011 3:36 PM GMT
Did you lose Mr. Grumpy?
Report eric_morris January 15, 2011 3:36 PM GMT
You may not have noticed a change in the climate most have.
Report zilzal1 January 15, 2011 3:38 PM GMT
Circa 81 it was called off as well, in 86 we no racing for a month
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