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aviper
08 Nov 09 06:05
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Date Joined: 08 Jun 00
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Report ronsk November 8, 2009 7:15 AM GMT
Did he really bottle that, or was it simply a case of forcing the issue far too much? I mean, to say that the shot he took on was seriously tough would be an understatement, wouldn't it?

Yes Els has been guilty of bottling in the past, but I'm not sure you could level that comment at him this time. His course management is certainly in question on this occasion; however, I am struggling to label this performance as a bottle-job.
Report double trouble November 8, 2009 7:19 AM GMT
It was a long way short mind..I dont think you can class it as anything but really. Played brilliantly all day..hits the font..ooops. I can see where youre coming from but it has to go down as a serious lapse and for me just another indication that Ernie struggles to get over the line nowadays.
Report ronsk November 8, 2009 7:21 AM GMT
DT - There's no doubting it was a poor effort on 18, but that shot was seriously high tariff!!
Report frames November 8, 2009 7:30 AM GMT
But he was no where near Ronsk ,definate twitch.Should of layed up as he did on 16 if it was that difficult , would be interesting to know if his caddy had any input.
Report trebor November 8, 2009 7:31 AM GMT
Not bad course managment I don't think, he was playing to cut it off the l/h bunker, he would have expected the ball to be over land pretty much all the way so that if it did finish up wet at least he would be dropping by the greenside, execution of shot, yeh poor for sure.
Report ronsk November 8, 2009 7:32 AM GMT
Absolutely no doubting he should have laid-up Frames.... It was far too tough a shot to take on. He just wasn't aware of the situation though was he...
Report trebor November 8, 2009 7:33 AM GMT
I can not see many players laying up from there
Report ronsk November 8, 2009 7:34 AM GMT
He was miles back Trebor!
Report double trouble November 8, 2009 7:34 AM GMT
Why did he take it on though? Could it be he knew his old nerves couldnt cope with playing the lay up and two putting? I dont know but I think, going forward, you have to be wary of him.
Report trebor November 8, 2009 7:38 AM GMT
I don't know the distance he had to go exactly, but he was not hitting the shot flat out atall, infact if he was in a position where he could not get it past the pin probabley even more reason to play the cut he was attempting for me.
Anyway off to play medal myself now, I will probley be laying up and then duffing chip!
Report frames November 8, 2009 7:39 AM GMT
Murray said his tee shot was well back ,it looked a cracking drive until he said that.Then Phil fresh airs one at virtually the same time.He had played such great approaches at 16 and 17 but Dubai and S.A must have been in the mind somewhere.
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 7:40 AM GMT
He cost me money,but I don't think he is a bottle job.Glided round the course for 17 holes and thought he was riding the crest of a wave and took on a par5 in 2.Came unstuck.
Won't be the first or last golfer to bogey a par 5.
Even the great Mr.Woods can make bogeys on par 5's.
Report ronsk November 8, 2009 7:44 AM GMT
I've watched his tee shot on 18 five or six times now... At the time I knew he hadn't nailed it, mainly because the ball wasn't airbourne for long enough, but the more I watch it, the more it becomes obvious that all he was trying to do was find the fairway, at all costs. He must have been miles back and trying to get on in two was never really an option.

DT makes a very fair point about whether he trusted himself to make birdie laying-up though. I suppose that could be called a bottle-job in itself.

My gut feeling is that he just called the whole situation incorrectly, but who really knows? Only Ernie I guess....
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 7:56 AM GMT
I know we are talking in present tenths and not past.But I don't see how anyone can win as many times as Els and be called a bottle job.
I just think he is putting more time into his family and probably does not practice as much.
My definition of a bottler would be someone that never wins at all.
Report ronsk November 8, 2009 7:58 AM GMT
I think that's extremely naive Stewards...
Report Utd Fan November 8, 2009 8:01 AM GMT
taking on a risky shot and failing to pull it off is not bottling it for me.

He probably had an idea of the score he needed to win and thought b0ll0x I am going for the shot.

I cant fault him for that as his attitude was an aggressive play. If he had layed up and then dunked his chip I would have then suggested it was a bottle job.

For me you have to congratulate Ernie for a fantastic round and not dwell on that shot too much even though it cost him the win.
Report frames November 8, 2009 8:04 AM GMT
I would agree if had hit the bank and rolled in to the water but he was yards off ,same as Dubai.I can`t remember the Bickerton collapse.
Report frames November 8, 2009 8:06 AM GMT
I remember he was 1.01 in the Bickers one though.
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 8:07 AM GMT
Maybe so mate,and it's only my opinion.
I don't expect Els to win again.But to me looking back over his career he has proved he is not a bottle job(the past 4 years I agree looks suspect)
Age catches up with everybody at some stage,the standard of golf has risen,Els is made for life.And from what I hear now sets his schedule around his autistic son.
I just get annoyed every time a golfer gets beat they seem to be branded a bottler.
Lots of pockets talking.
Report double trouble November 8, 2009 8:07 AM GMT
Why didnt he take on 16 then?

You could argue that if he was going to be brave and go for it that was when he should have.

He was 4.3 ish on the 16th tee and layed up and 1.11 on the 18th and went for it...

I think it was a case of chancing one big shot to get it over and done with. You can call that panicking, bottling, or just plain stupid but one thing is for certain it doesnt make him a more solid proposition in the mix going forward.

It was also interesting to see him trying to justify it to Phil too.
Report Utd Fan November 8, 2009 8:08 AM GMT
the Bickerton collapse was a complete bottle job.

two easy *****into that end up in the water and finishes up with a treble bogey on 18 and lose by 1.
Report double trouble November 8, 2009 8:12 AM GMT
stewardsenquirey, you have to try an evalute to what degree players can handle pressure, its not pocket talking at all, its a very sensible and valid debate.
Report Ed Deline November 8, 2009 8:17 AM GMT
Jeez, the guy shot 9 under on a sunday to finish one off the lead. Give him a break.
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 8:17 AM GMT
DT,I do state it's only my opinion.Not saying I am right.But it's just my thoughts.
Report Utd Fan November 8, 2009 8:20 AM GMT
he must have felt he could pull of the shot.

he also would have expected at least two birdies from Phil in the final three holes and wouldnt have known he was making a sham of 16.

his mind set would have been I need a bird and the best play was possibly going for the shot. If he had been defending a lead it would have been silly, as he was chasing a score and he played aggressive.

If Tiger had done the same we wouldnt have raised an eyebrow but as its Ernie and he has recent history it is easy to suggest a bottle job.

I think the final three holes on that course are awesome btw
Report holein1 November 8, 2009 8:21 AM GMT
what price did els go down to pls?
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 8:21 AM GMT
I'm all for valid and sensible debates(rare occasion on the golf forum)
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 8:21 AM GMT
1.10-1.11
Report double trouble November 8, 2009 8:22 AM GMT
Ed, he was able to do that because he was so far off the pace, as was Rory btw. I dont think we need to worry too much, it's only a hunch, but I've a feeling he wont get to read this. I really cant understand why people get sensitive about us debating this sort of thing. Theyre just trading pawns for us arent they?
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 8:23 AM GMT
I totally agree Utd.Tiger or Lefty had done it and they would have walked away without the bottler label attached to them.
Report double trouble November 8, 2009 8:26 AM GMT
If Tiger had done the same we wouldnt have raised an eyebrow but as its Ernie and he has recent history it is easy to suggest a bottle job.

TBH Utd, whoever it had been Id have asked questions. Its what its all about. The fact that it was someone with plenty of previous does have a bearing on conclusions drawn though.
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 8:26 AM GMT
Who is getting sensitive DT ?
Report double trouble November 8, 2009 8:27 AM GMT
Plenty have labelled Lefty a bottler stewards...
Report holein1 November 8, 2009 8:27 AM GMT
thx
Report double trouble November 8, 2009 8:28 AM GMT
stewardsenquirey 08 Nov 09:07
Maybe so mate,and it's only my opinion.
I don't expect Els to win again.But to me looking back over his career he has proved he is not a bottle job(the past 4 years I agree looks suspect)
Age catches up with everybody at some stage,the standard of golf has risen,Els is made for life.And from what I hear now sets his schedule around his autistic son.
I just get annoyed every time a golfer gets beat they seem to be branded a bottler.
Lots of pockets talking.

i would have this down as sensitive...
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 8:28 AM GMT
Do you label every golfer that hits a bad shot on 18 after 72 holes to have a chance of winning a bottler then DT ?
Report double trouble November 8, 2009 8:29 AM GMT
nothing wrong with that btw, just dont think it helps in this instance. I think you have to be as hard and as pragmatic as you can be when assessing players performances.
Report Ed Deline November 8, 2009 8:30 AM GMT
DT, I agree with the notion of Els not being able to get over the line anymore. Same with Goosen and would never back either on a Sunday. I just think that making bogey on the last when shooting 63 anyway is not a case in point. He was clearly playing aggresively all day, he just didn't switch it off when he should have. Impressive round, given that only one other guy in the top ten shot as low on any of the days (and that the boy wonder).
Report double trouble November 8, 2009 8:30 AM GMT
Steady up, i dont need another effin argument. Of course i dont but I can see i'm wasting my time here...
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 8:31 AM GMT
It's not meant to be sensitive.
Lets just keep it as a debate.It would appear to me that anyone with conflicting opinions to you is classed as sensitive or clueless.
Report double trouble November 8, 2009 8:32 AM GMT
Could you find someone else to fight with please mate, im too tired...
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 8:34 AM GMT
Hand on heart,I am not looking to bicker.I will leave it at that and say no more.
Report Take My Money, I Don't Want It November 8, 2009 8:34 AM GMT
Don't forget stewards its not a catch up course though.
Report ronsk November 8, 2009 8:35 AM GMT
Feck off TMMIDWI you C0CK!
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 8:36 AM GMT
Thanks for the advice.You have previous of aftertiming ;)
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 8:36 AM GMT
That was directed to "take my money "by the way.
Report double trouble November 8, 2009 8:40 AM GMT
Take My Money, I Don't Want It 08 Nov 09:34
Don't forget stewards its not a catch up course though.

I was starting to give you the benefit of the doubt but youve just tumbled all the way back to the swamp. You are indeed an idiot of the highest order.

No worries stewards, catch you later mate.
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 8:45 AM GMT
Combination of losing money and lack of sleep makes me a bit ratty(so I am told)
No offence meant DT.
Report double trouble November 8, 2009 8:47 AM GMT
I know that feeling well..and I dont even need to be told to know it either!
Report Utd Fan November 8, 2009 9:26 AM GMT
lets not forget Micko almost screwed up 18.

poor shot of the tee finding heavy rough and average 2nd shot that was rather fortunate only to find light rough. He finished off well from that position but it could have been a very different story.

Tiger also made a shambles of 18, OK he was well out of it by then but all this talk about Els is taking us away from how much Woods is struggling in almost all areas of his game at the moment

Will be interesting to see how he plays in Australia
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 9:56 AM GMT
Westwood also took bogey on18.
Report 1st time poster November 8, 2009 10:14 AM GMT
some bottle job, this week he was available at 55,s on here,hits a hole in one,comes from 7 behind the worlds no 1 and 2 to get in winning position,and scores course record 63 on pay day, the fact he was 1,11 says more about the numpties on here than els,if golf was played on a laptop or playstation we,d all have a chance
Report 1st time poster November 8, 2009 10:15 AM GMT
and i backed him,win and place thankfully
Report double trouble November 8, 2009 10:20 AM GMT
Im assuming im being classed as a numpty here. A numpty that backed Els at over 400 and layed at 1.58 mind, but a numpty all the same.

As Im such a numpty, could you explain this to my thick self...

the fact he was 1,11 says more about the numpties on here than els,if golf was played on a laptop or playstation we,d all have a chance

Doesnt make any sense, but then I am numpty.
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 10:24 AM GMT
Now that's what you call a nice trade DT.Were you level green all round ?
At those prices you can't surely have gone red on Ernie?
Report double trouble November 8, 2009 10:28 AM GMT
I got lucky. I was so tired after the first three days that I just levelled it all up for a neutral book at worst. Els' round was a massive bonus. It was odd though. When he looked like winning I was wishing Id slept in but in the end I did the right thing. For a change!
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 10:30 AM GMT
Good work.
Report double trouble November 8, 2009 10:38 AM GMT
Not bad for a numpty that spouts codswallop!
Report par November 8, 2009 10:43 AM GMT
If Phil had not holed an unlikely putt on 16 we would be screaming bottler about him as well
Report double trouble November 8, 2009 10:46 AM GMT
Not if he'd have birdied the last instead par ;)
Report par November 8, 2009 10:52 AM GMT
although in fairness

I think Ernie's nerve is shot to bits

Dubai, Leopard Creek and now Shanghai.

All much the same shot
Report 1st time poster November 8, 2009 11:25 AM GMT
numpties probably abit strong, but the 1.11 on here doesnt reoresent a golfers chance of winning as people are covering positions etc, with the likes of moore,mick etc able to score anything from a 2 to a 6 or higher on the last els was never a 10 to 1 on chance to win in golfing terms
Report stewardsenquirey November 8, 2009 11:45 AM GMT
I would have to disagree.Els just poked in a birdie on 17 with a par5 to come and Lefty looked more than likely to drop a shot on 16 and be 2 shots back.
If I played at those sort or prices with a large bank,I would have steamed in(thank god I don't in hindsight)
Report the big bossman November 8, 2009 11:47 AM GMT
was big on himm in sa when hit water 2 times last hole sunday
Report mcarron November 8, 2009 3:41 PM GMT
els was 500/1 starting on sunday and got to be as short as 1.11 as people thought mickelson was bottling it on 16...............els made a great up and down on 14,15,and 16 under pressure and thought he had to birdie 18 to have a great chance.........if els had won this thread would be about mickelson bottling it,so give ernie a break........imo PATHETIC THREAD
Report Chris Brown November 8, 2009 5:16 PM GMT
everyone is judging ernies shot on 18 as if he knew what was happening to phil over on 16.We still don't even know which shot happened first.To my mind ernie was thinking birdie for a playoff and if i get lucky enough to make eagle then i win the tournament.Did seem to be a long way back though
Report espinjo November 8, 2009 5:37 PM GMT
this fred perfectly sums up the conditions the forum is in at the moment.
numpties crawling out of their wormhole due to an empty wallet
Report FIGJAM November 8, 2009 5:46 PM GMT
Report dunlop65 November 8, 2009 7:05 PM GMT
The water at the back of the green prevented him from winning the tournament(stop laughing!!) because it fused his thought process and stopped him selecting the correct way of playing the hole from that tee shot regardless of what Mickelson was doing behind.He couldn't possibly allow himself to lose another tournament(Leopard Creek) by laying up from the fairway on a Par 5 and thinning a wedge into the water at the back of the green.That 18th is no gimmie birdie so for Ernie to take it on from that position was madness.It's no use everyone saying if he'd pulled it off no one would be saying anything on here.Even if he'd have made the carry with his second shot it was a risk he didn't need to take at that stage and brought water front and back into play.Everyone else in the field would have layed up and settled for a par at worst.Memo to Ernie 'sack Josh van derspouten'.Shame to see the big fella mentally struggling like that.
Report espinjo November 9, 2009 9:26 AM GMT
els had no idea mickelson was struggling on the short 16th par 4 and expected him to birdie and tie for the lead.
ernest thought correctly in his position at the time being he would need to birdie or even better eagle the par 5 18th to put mickelson under pressure.
He did what all great players would have done, but it was a very hard shot to take on and from a bad lie he couldnt convert.
Had mickelson bogied the 16th insted of making an unlike right to left 25 footer for par and finished one behind the numpties would yet again be out in high numbers with the bottle chants. Only this time having a stab at the worlds second best player. The funny thing is the guy that noone dares having a go at was the only one that looked like he was choking out there and only started playing well when the pressure was off. Of course this are the typical sign of a proper bottle merchant.
But let that be our little secret so be sure not to tell anyone
Report CUPRA November 9, 2009 9:37 AM GMT
oh yes, we are getting back to form
Report CUPRA November 9, 2009 9:44 AM GMT
[i]Dubai, Leopard Creek and now Shanghai.

All much the same shot

[/i
Absolutely bang on
Report hacker November 9, 2009 2:55 PM GMT
Els played great all day ...hit a super shot into 8, over water for eagle..and to finish shooting 63 doesn`t feel like a bottle job to me.He just took the wrong shot on at the wrong time...
Tiger seems to be tightening up these days especially when Phils in the mix...Masters and Tour Champs,come to mind.Hacked his way round the first 8 holes..
Report trebor November 9, 2009 4:26 PM GMT
Why was it the wrong shot? think he would play the same shot if in same situation again, just the same as we would take odds against on a fair coin toss even if we had lost the first toss. imo it was the shot to play, dos'nt mean it will be sucsesful every time.
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