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aviper
08 Nov 09 06:05
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Date Joined: 08 Jun 00
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Replies: 74
By:
ronsk
When: 08 Nov 09 07:15
Did he really bottle that, or was it simply a case of forcing the issue far too much? I mean, to say that the shot he took on was seriously tough would be an understatement, wouldn't it?

Yes Els has been guilty of bottling in the past, but I'm not sure you could level that comment at him this time. His course management is certainly in question on this occasion; however, I am struggling to label this performance as a bottle-job.
By:
double trouble
When: 08 Nov 09 07:19
It was a long way short mind..I dont think you can class it as anything but really. Played brilliantly all day..hits the font..ooops. I can see where youre coming from but it has to go down as a serious lapse and for me just another indication that Ernie struggles to get over the line nowadays.
By:
ronsk
When: 08 Nov 09 07:21
DT - There's no doubting it was a poor effort on 18, but that shot was seriously high tariff!!
By:
frames
When: 08 Nov 09 07:30
But he was no where near Ronsk ,definate twitch.Should of layed up as he did on 16 if it was that difficult , would be interesting to know if his caddy had any input.
By:
trebor
When: 08 Nov 09 07:31
Not bad course managment I don't think, he was playing to cut it off the l/h bunker, he would have expected the ball to be over land pretty much all the way so that if it did finish up wet at least he would be dropping by the greenside, execution of shot, yeh poor for sure.
By:
ronsk
When: 08 Nov 09 07:32
Absolutely no doubting he should have laid-up Frames.... It was far too tough a shot to take on. He just wasn't aware of the situation though was he...
By:
trebor
When: 08 Nov 09 07:33
I can not see many players laying up from there
By:
ronsk
When: 08 Nov 09 07:34
He was miles back Trebor!
By:
double trouble
When: 08 Nov 09 07:34
Why did he take it on though? Could it be he knew his old nerves couldnt cope with playing the lay up and two putting? I dont know but I think, going forward, you have to be wary of him.
By:
trebor
When: 08 Nov 09 07:38
I don't know the distance he had to go exactly, but he was not hitting the shot flat out atall, infact if he was in a position where he could not get it past the pin probabley even more reason to play the cut he was attempting for me.
Anyway off to play medal myself now, I will probley be laying up and then duffing chip!
By:
frames
When: 08 Nov 09 07:39
Murray said his tee shot was well back ,it looked a cracking drive until he said that.Then Phil fresh airs one at virtually the same time.He had played such great approaches at 16 and 17 but Dubai and S.A must have been in the mind somewhere.
By:
stewardsenquirey
When: 08 Nov 09 07:40
He cost me money,but I don't think he is a bottle job.Glided round the course for 17 holes and thought he was riding the crest of a wave and took on a par5 in 2.Came unstuck.
Won't be the first or last golfer to bogey a par 5.
Even the great Mr.Woods can make bogeys on par 5's.
By:
ronsk
When: 08 Nov 09 07:44
I've watched his tee shot on 18 five or six times now... At the time I knew he hadn't nailed it, mainly because the ball wasn't airbourne for long enough, but the more I watch it, the more it becomes obvious that all he was trying to do was find the fairway, at all costs. He must have been miles back and trying to get on in two was never really an option.

DT makes a very fair point about whether he trusted himself to make birdie laying-up though. I suppose that could be called a bottle-job in itself.

My gut feeling is that he just called the whole situation incorrectly, but who really knows? Only Ernie I guess....
By:
stewardsenquirey
When: 08 Nov 09 07:56
I know we are talking in present tenths and not past.But I don't see how anyone can win as many times as Els and be called a bottle job.
I just think he is putting more time into his family and probably does not practice as much.
My definition of a bottler would be someone that never wins at all.
By:
ronsk
When: 08 Nov 09 07:58
I think that's extremely naive Stewards...
By:
Utd Fan
When: 08 Nov 09 08:01
taking on a risky shot and failing to pull it off is not bottling it for me.

He probably had an idea of the score he needed to win and thought b0ll0x I am going for the shot.

I cant fault him for that as his attitude was an aggressive play. If he had layed up and then dunked his chip I would have then suggested it was a bottle job.

For me you have to congratulate Ernie for a fantastic round and not dwell on that shot too much even though it cost him the win.
By:
frames
When: 08 Nov 09 08:04
I would agree if had hit the bank and rolled in to the water but he was yards off ,same as Dubai.I can`t remember the Bickerton collapse.
By:
frames
When: 08 Nov 09 08:06
I remember he was 1.01 in the Bickers one though.
By:
stewardsenquirey
When: 08 Nov 09 08:07
Maybe so mate,and it's only my opinion.
I don't expect Els to win again.But to me looking back over his career he has proved he is not a bottle job(the past 4 years I agree looks suspect)
Age catches up with everybody at some stage,the standard of golf has risen,Els is made for life.And from what I hear now sets his schedule around his autistic son.
I just get annoyed every time a golfer gets beat they seem to be branded a bottler.
Lots of pockets talking.
By:
double trouble
When: 08 Nov 09 08:07
Why didnt he take on 16 then?

You could argue that if he was going to be brave and go for it that was when he should have.

He was 4.3 ish on the 16th tee and layed up and 1.11 on the 18th and went for it...

I think it was a case of chancing one big shot to get it over and done with. You can call that panicking, bottling, or just plain stupid but one thing is for certain it doesnt make him a more solid proposition in the mix going forward.

It was also interesting to see him trying to justify it to Phil too.
By:
Utd Fan
When: 08 Nov 09 08:08
the Bickerton collapse was a complete bottle job.

two easy *****into that end up in the water and finishes up with a treble bogey on 18 and lose by 1.
By:
double trouble
When: 08 Nov 09 08:12
stewardsenquirey, you have to try an evalute to what degree players can handle pressure, its not pocket talking at all, its a very sensible and valid debate.
By:
Ed Deline
When: 08 Nov 09 08:17
Jeez, the guy shot 9 under on a sunday to finish one off the lead. Give him a break.
By:
stewardsenquirey
When: 08 Nov 09 08:17
DT,I do state it's only my opinion.Not saying I am right.But it's just my thoughts.
By:
Utd Fan
When: 08 Nov 09 08:20
he must have felt he could pull of the shot.

he also would have expected at least two birdies from Phil in the final three holes and wouldnt have known he was making a sham of 16.

his mind set would have been I need a bird and the best play was possibly going for the shot. If he had been defending a lead it would have been silly, as he was chasing a score and he played aggressive.

If Tiger had done the same we wouldnt have raised an eyebrow but as its Ernie and he has recent history it is easy to suggest a bottle job.

I think the final three holes on that course are awesome btw
By:
holein1
When: 08 Nov 09 08:21
what price did els go down to pls?
By:
stewardsenquirey
When: 08 Nov 09 08:21
I'm all for valid and sensible debates(rare occasion on the golf forum)
By:
stewardsenquirey
When: 08 Nov 09 08:21
1.10-1.11
By:
double trouble
When: 08 Nov 09 08:22
Ed, he was able to do that because he was so far off the pace, as was Rory btw. I dont think we need to worry too much, it's only a hunch, but I've a feeling he wont get to read this. I really cant understand why people get sensitive about us debating this sort of thing. Theyre just trading pawns for us arent they?
By:
stewardsenquirey
When: 08 Nov 09 08:23
I totally agree Utd.Tiger or Lefty had done it and they would have walked away without the bottler label attached to them.
By:
double trouble
When: 08 Nov 09 08:26
If Tiger had done the same we wouldnt have raised an eyebrow but as its Ernie and he has recent history it is easy to suggest a bottle job.

TBH Utd, whoever it had been Id have asked questions. Its what its all about. The fact that it was someone with plenty of previous does have a bearing on conclusions drawn though.
By:
stewardsenquirey
When: 08 Nov 09 08:26
Who is getting sensitive DT ?
By:
double trouble
When: 08 Nov 09 08:27
Plenty have labelled Lefty a bottler stewards...
By:
holein1
When: 08 Nov 09 08:27
thx
By:
double trouble
When: 08 Nov 09 08:28
stewardsenquirey 08 Nov 09:07
Maybe so mate,and it's only my opinion.
I don't expect Els to win again.But to me looking back over his career he has proved he is not a bottle job(the past 4 years I agree looks suspect)
Age catches up with everybody at some stage,the standard of golf has risen,Els is made for life.And from what I hear now sets his schedule around his autistic son.
I just get annoyed every time a golfer gets beat they seem to be branded a bottler.
Lots of pockets talking.

i would have this down as sensitive...
By:
stewardsenquirey
When: 08 Nov 09 08:28
Do you label every golfer that hits a bad shot on 18 after 72 holes to have a chance of winning a bottler then DT ?
By:
double trouble
When: 08 Nov 09 08:29
nothing wrong with that btw, just dont think it helps in this instance. I think you have to be as hard and as pragmatic as you can be when assessing players performances.
By:
Ed Deline
When: 08 Nov 09 08:30
DT, I agree with the notion of Els not being able to get over the line anymore. Same with Goosen and would never back either on a Sunday. I just think that making bogey on the last when shooting 63 anyway is not a case in point. He was clearly playing aggresively all day, he just didn't switch it off when he should have. Impressive round, given that only one other guy in the top ten shot as low on any of the days (and that the boy wonder).
By:
double trouble
When: 08 Nov 09 08:30
Steady up, i dont need another effin argument. Of course i dont but I can see i'm wasting my time here...
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