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Well, it's been fun, it's been profitable, challenging at times, sometimes frustrating and often amusing. Been doing this (serious punting) nearly 20 years on here and about 23 in total. The betting game has changed a lot in that time and will no doubt change a lot in the future. Racing is a sport battling against economic issues and is no doubt going to be facing some serious problems with funding in the next few decades which will inevitable further weaken racing both as a sport and has a betting medium. The silly season is about to kick off with afternoon and evening fixtures overlapping and the punter has several months of raceclashes and plummeting liquidty to battle. I think it is going to be harder than ever and I wish you all luck with it.
Here are some of the reasons I am going to sign off my account and retire from serious punting (If you're bored already feel free to stop reading)
LIQUIDITY - (PRE RACE as most people assume all liqudity threads are about I/R) - Anyone who has read my posts on here in the last few years will know I often comment negatively on liqudity on the Exchange but I genuinely believe it is falling markedly now (away from the big meetings) and can confidently predict that it is about to drop through the floor. We are now seeing gaps in prices and tiny amounts avaliable even quite close to the off on UK races when they are not even clashing with other races. This used to be an extremley rare occurance. A couple of grand (even very close to the off) can knock a horse from 5s to 7-2 or similar (this is just an example). Liqudity cannot improve and can only continue falling towards rock bottom because of the following factors (and others I have not thought of)
1) Betfair pushing all new customers on to the sportsbook - A few of the more successful ones may find their way on to the exchange but the vast majority won't and as punters die off, retire, give up etc the numbers of punters on here will continue to fall.
2) Declining public interest in Horse Racing - self explanatory.
3) Potential economic issues for the UK outside of Horse Racing which may or may not happen - it is not my wish to get into a political debate here.
Whatever the reasons, if you can't bet anywhere else and you can only bet on here within 2 minutes before the off and your bets move the prices against you nearly every time, it becomes increasingly difficult to convnce youself it is woth persisting. Particulary when you think the bottom of the barrel has been nowhere near reached.
DIFFICULTY LEVEL - Liqudity aside there are other issues that make it much harder than it used to be to strike value bets. For example
1) Lack of "mug" punters - Not a great term and apologies if it offends anyone. I use it because it is the terminology most people would utilise. Anyone who isn't a winning punter or at least has some concept of value can happily bet with bookmakers who are delighted to accomodate them and to court them with numerous special offers and then take thieir bets of unfavourable terms. Nowaday s Betfair itself is tapping into this market via the Sportsbook. Hence most people on here know what they are doing. It is very hard to lay the ones you think can't win or to get on the ones you think are overpriced (NOTE - this does not apply if you're stakes are small enough when the very volatile markets may actually be an advantage to you)
2) Media saturation - The pace of races etc is now done to death so much in the media that it is now very difficult to predict the tactics of races because there is more awareness and therefore more likelihood of a switch in tactics to avoid a speed duel or being caught off a steady pace.
3) Increased overlap of form between countries - won't dwell on this, simply to say nowadays you need to keep on top of Irish form (doable but time consuming) and further afield (very difficult to assess without huge effort)
4 BOTS -A massive issue. Crossmatching between the win and the place markets is an absolute killer when you are wanting a decent win/place wager. There are clearly bots set to follow large stakes that appear and use their presence to cream off money by (I assume) two-way trading as the price inveitably contracts or drifts (if laying). Can I prove this? No, but I have been doing this long enough to be confident I am correct.
Again the above is just scratching the surface
MOTIVATION - Full time punting can't be done half heartedly. You need to be dedicated. I'm not going to dwell to long on this as what is relevent to me isn't relevant to everyone.
Suffice to say - I don't need to make any more money, I don't want to follow racing 7 days and 6 nights a week any more and I think I have devoted long enough to it and probably owe it to myself to find a new challenge and do something else. I also don't want to keep having to consider needing to keep on top of the form as a major consideration in my life. As anyone who does this for a living or has done it for a living knows it can take over your life. You find yourself constantly clockwatching, turning down invitations etc and even organising your holidays around the racing. I can't justify doing it any more. I've taken time out travelling in the last couple of years and intend to do more of it, which is very difficult to combine with serious punting.
I generally feel most of the time that I would rather be doing something else.
CORRUPTION - Another topic that's been done to death. So I will simply say this. The BHA does not police the sport properly and horses are been hooked on a daily basis. I've spent far too much time typing this to get it deleted by naming names and most people on here will have some idea who some of the regular offenders are. Some people say corruption doesn't matter from a punting perspective. But of course it does. If the markets are often cornered by a handful of triers it is much harder to get an edge. And it is quite easy to take "value prices" about some of the non jiggers even if you broadly speaking know what you're doing. I've benefited from the innovation of Betfair but I believe it has increased skullduggery by providing certain "shrewd" operators with an opportunity.
So in summary that's me pretty much done. I'm lucky that I have been able to achieve what I have as people starting out now are going to need to be a hell of a lot better at this than the likes of me. If there are people on here in ten years time still making serious money betting on horses, I salute them.
I've put this on here because the General Betting forum is a bit of a ghost town these days and it won't simply disappear like it would on Horse Racing. I thought it might be an interesting read for some. Or it might not. Doesn't really matter. It is more a stream of consciousness written for my own benefit in case I question a few months down the line whether I have done the right thing by moving on. I'll keep my horses in trainng and go and see them a bit more, I just won't be on here battling with the robots scrabbling around for prices in an ever declining market.
Bit like War and Peace that, but nothing like as well written (I assume having never read any Tolstoy). Hope it's not too dull.
Here are some of the reasons I am going to sign off my account and retire from serious punting (If you're bored already feel free to stop reading)
LIQUIDITY - (PRE RACE as most people assume all liqudity threads are about I/R) - Anyone who has read my posts on here in the last few years will know I often comment negatively on liqudity on the Exchange but I genuinely believe it is falling markedly now (away from the big meetings) and can confidently predict that it is about to drop through the floor. We are now seeing gaps in prices and tiny amounts avaliable even quite close to the off on UK races when they are not even clashing with other races. This used to be an extremley rare occurance. A couple of grand (even very close to the off) can knock a horse from 5s to 7-2 or similar (this is just an example). Liqudity cannot improve and can only continue falling towards rock bottom because of the following factors (and others I have not thought of)
1) Betfair pushing all new customers on to the sportsbook - A few of the more successful ones may find their way on to the exchange but the vast majority won't and as punters die off, retire, give up etc the numbers of punters on here will continue to fall.
2) Declining public interest in Horse Racing - self explanatory.
3) Potential economic issues for the UK outside of Horse Racing which may or may not happen - it is not my wish to get into a political debate here.
Whatever the reasons, if you can't bet anywhere else and you can only bet on here within 2 minutes before the off and your bets move the prices against you nearly every time, it becomes increasingly difficult to convnce youself it is woth persisting. Particulary when you think the bottom of the barrel has been nowhere near reached.
DIFFICULTY LEVEL - Liqudity aside there are other issues that make it much harder than it used to be to strike value bets. For example
1) Lack of "mug" punters - Not a great term and apologies if it offends anyone. I use it because it is the terminology most people would utilise. Anyone who isn't a winning punter or at least has some concept of value can happily bet with bookmakers who are delighted to accomodate them and to court them with numerous special offers and then take thieir bets of unfavourable terms. Nowaday s Betfair itself is tapping into this market via the Sportsbook. Hence most people on here know what they are doing. It is very hard to lay the ones you think can't win or to get on the ones you think are overpriced (NOTE - this does not apply if you're stakes are small enough when the very volatile markets may actually be an advantage to you)
2) Media saturation - The pace of races etc is now done to death so much in the media that it is now very difficult to predict the tactics of races because there is more awareness and therefore more likelihood of a switch in tactics to avoid a speed duel or being caught off a steady pace.
3) Increased overlap of form between countries - won't dwell on this, simply to say nowadays you need to keep on top of Irish form (doable but time consuming) and further afield (very difficult to assess without huge effort)
4 BOTS -A massive issue. Crossmatching between the win and the place markets is an absolute killer when you are wanting a decent win/place wager. There are clearly bots set to follow large stakes that appear and use their presence to cream off money by (I assume) two-way trading as the price inveitably contracts or drifts (if laying). Can I prove this? No, but I have been doing this long enough to be confident I am correct.
Again the above is just scratching the surface
MOTIVATION - Full time punting can't be done half heartedly. You need to be dedicated. I'm not going to dwell to long on this as what is relevent to me isn't relevant to everyone.
Suffice to say - I don't need to make any more money, I don't want to follow racing 7 days and 6 nights a week any more and I think I have devoted long enough to it and probably owe it to myself to find a new challenge and do something else. I also don't want to keep having to consider needing to keep on top of the form as a major consideration in my life. As anyone who does this for a living or has done it for a living knows it can take over your life. You find yourself constantly clockwatching, turning down invitations etc and even organising your holidays around the racing. I can't justify doing it any more. I've taken time out travelling in the last couple of years and intend to do more of it, which is very difficult to combine with serious punting.
I generally feel most of the time that I would rather be doing something else.
CORRUPTION - Another topic that's been done to death. So I will simply say this. The BHA does not police the sport properly and horses are been hooked on a daily basis. I've spent far too much time typing this to get it deleted by naming names and most people on here will have some idea who some of the regular offenders are. Some people say corruption doesn't matter from a punting perspective. But of course it does. If the markets are often cornered by a handful of triers it is much harder to get an edge. And it is quite easy to take "value prices" about some of the non jiggers even if you broadly speaking know what you're doing. I've benefited from the innovation of Betfair but I believe it has increased skullduggery by providing certain "shrewd" operators with an opportunity.
So in summary that's me pretty much done. I'm lucky that I have been able to achieve what I have as people starting out now are going to need to be a hell of a lot better at this than the likes of me. If there are people on here in ten years time still making serious money betting on horses, I salute them.
I've put this on here because the General Betting forum is a bit of a ghost town these days and it won't simply disappear like it would on Horse Racing. I thought it might be an interesting read for some. Or it might not. Doesn't really matter. It is more a stream of consciousness written for my own benefit in case I question a few months down the line whether I have done the right thing by moving on. I'll keep my horses in trainng and go and see them a bit more, I just won't be on here battling with the robots scrabbling around for prices in an ever declining market.
Bit like War and Peace that, but nothing like as well written (I assume having never read any Tolstoy). Hope it's not too dull.
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An interesting read,I agree with most of what you say.I am only on here to pass time now between holidays.I think it was easier to keep on top of the form before AW racing and Sunday racing.I still use paper form books,I suppose computers would be quicker,but I prefer paper.Enjoy your holidays.I can't remember the last decent bet I have had,I used to pay more tax than what I bet now.It is not the same game now.I did not find your thread dull.Best wishes.
Good read, BB. I've always enjoyed your contributions and I wish you well with whatever the future has in store.
Enjoy your retirement BB. I look back fondly on the glory years 2000-2006 (for me) when horse racing on BF was like shelling peas - but imo we got a pretty good first glimpse of what the future might hold for horse racing (largely due to BF) from about the time of the Hillside Girl "incident" (Summer of 2003? iirc). I am only surprised that it actually then took so long to descend to where it is today. I still love racing but as somebody that never really looked to adapt from an "old school" approach, I largely walked away from most of it as a trading/betting medium in about 2012 for some of the reasons you have highlighted - especially the time element.
I admire you for persevering with racing until now. I can imagine that if I was still active (especially with my prehistoric methodology!) it would now be all consuming time wise, especially compared to the other markets where I am still active with my abacus! My take on racing now is best summed up by Mr Spock - "It's life Jim but not as we know it".
Good luck and best wishes with whatever you do next!
I admire you for persevering with racing until now. I can imagine that if I was still active (especially with my prehistoric methodology!) it would now be all consuming time wise, especially compared to the other markets where I am still active with my abacus! My take on racing now is best summed up by Mr Spock - "It's life Jim but not as we know it".
Good luck and best wishes with whatever you do next!
Interesting post, BB, and thanks for putting on here. I don't touch horse racing but your sentiments echo my own and I know it's only a matter of time now before I call it day and move onto pastures new.
Cheers folks. Appreciate the best wishes and interesting (but unsurprising) to read that others feel similalry about the way the exchange is going. The peak years for me on here were probably 2004 to about 2012. In reality the exchange model was always going to have a limited shelf life without new streams of punters coming in to the system. I think a lot of what I said above could have been summarised by saying that you have to work harder to win less because of the nature of both the sport and the weakenss of the markets!
Silly season not even kicked in yet and we have
5.15 Aintree
5,20 Wexford
5.25 Leicester
5.30 Wolverhampton
5.35 Sedgefield
5.40 Dundalk.
Worse from late April onwards. If you want a good bet on any of those races and you aren't wanting to play or lay the favourite, good luck.
5.15 Aintree
5,20 Wexford
5.25 Leicester
5.30 Wolverhampton
5.35 Sedgefield
5.40 Dundalk.
Worse from late April onwards. If you want a good bet on any of those races and you aren't wanting to play or lay the favourite, good luck.
BB - Unsuprisingly, I could have written the same, except for the fact the game is in my DNA (was a runner for a bookies runner in my childhood) and I retain an interest and very rarely bet on the gee gees these days, mostly for the reasons you have given.
I concentrate on soccer now. I do a lot of work with statistics, which keeps my old brain going, and there are many good short odds on opportunities, although I think most of the liquidity is bot v bot.
Enjoy your retirement.
I concentrate on soccer now. I do a lot of work with statistics, which keeps my old brain going, and there are many good short odds on opportunities, although I think most of the liquidity is bot v bot.
Enjoy your retirement.
MOTIVATION - Full time punting can't be done half heartedly. You need to be dedicated. I'm not going to dwell to long on this as what is relevent to me isn't relevant to everyone.
Suffice to say - I don't need to make any more money, I don't want to follow racing 7 days and 6 nights a week any more and I think I have devoted long enough to it and probably owe it to myself to find a new challenge and do something else. I also don't want to keep having to consider needing to keep on top of the form as a major consideration in my life. As anyone who does this for a living or has done it for a living knows it can take over your life. You find yourself constantly clockwatching, turning down invitations etc and even organising your holidays around the racing. I can't justify doing it any more. I've taken time out travelling in the last couple of years and intend to do more of it, which is very difficult to combine with serious punting.
I generally feel most of the time that I would rather be doing something else.
seems to me the issue isn't just with the money won/lost, but more like the loss of time that gambling has on a gamblers life.
It's my firm belief that gambling is generally a navel-gazing activity and a lot of gamblers would be much happier if they followed a line of work that actually brought them into contact with other people; staring at the computer screen or pouring over form doesn't promote a healthy mind.
Interesting point Lewisham. When I made the vast majority of my money I was betting about 360 days a year bar the very occasional holiday and a 6-month break from serious punting I took in 2005. I don't regret doing it but there were times when it was stressful and I always kept contact with other people and had the odd hobby. I know of some propunters who have said they went days without speaking to people in person.
Tell you one thing I won't miss. The daily dose of Harry Redknapp doing annoying adverts. Sick of the sound of him.
Good luck BB
I don't envy anyone who does horses full time on here. In the two decades I've been on here I've gone from 90% horses and 10% other stuff to 10% horses and 90% other stuff. I would be skint otherwise. It's only because I still love the challenge of working out a big race that I do anything at all on the horses
I don't envy anyone who does horses full time on here. In the two decades I've been on here I've gone from 90% horses and 10% other stuff to 10% horses and 90% other stuff. I would be skint otherwise. It's only because I still love the challenge of working out a big race that I do anything at all on the horses
With the big races you have a proper market. Unfortunately most races nowadays you don't. There was a horse today at Chepstow that within the space of a few minutes went from about 8.2 to 2.5 then back to 4.2 and back in to about 3.2. That is insane! And the amounts available at those prices were small for the most part. There is also a lot of price spoofing due to the weakness of the markets which is a nice bonus for anyone connected who likes to play that game.
enjoy your retirement, none of the above would bother me in the slightest, the very best bets never move in the market's anyway. things like corruption in racing,its usually in the races that are easily avoided imo
no doubt there will always be opportunities for form readers and strategist's. with the wealth of data available to punters these days, will always be people around smart enough to exploit the formbook
no doubt there will always be opportunities for form readers and strategist's. with the wealth of data available to punters these days, will always be people around smart enough to exploit the formbook
Well if the "very best bets never move in the markets" then my point about most of the markets being completely lacking in liquidity due to their being fewer and fewer people betting on them and hence causing the prices to jump around all over the place for peanuts is even more valid then, isn't it?
all the points you made were valid, its your experience of gambling for a living, did your betting evolve and change during this period? im sure most people who have been on here a long time would completely agree about the points you made and the pressure of gambling for a living, the wealth of data around now, gotta be more than just a form reader these days imo, after learning the game for last 10 years, havent even started making money yet, completely understand the dedication it takes to make money now. well done with lion hearted he
achieved his best speed figure on the 12th march TS 76, only got a TS 1 LTO
achieved his best speed figure on the 12th march TS 76, only got a TS 1 LTO
Will try and answer your question about whether my betting evolved -
Yes. Mostly through necessity. When I started betting seriously it was pre-Betfair and hence I was betting with bookmakers. In those days the early price opportunities with bookmakers gave you MUCH better value because the Betfair markets didn't exist and cause the prices to be slashed before you could bet. Can recall plenty of times backing horses (average stake at the time 200-500 quid) at more than double the SP. You could win more before you got your accounts closed in those days.
On Betfair I didn't intentionally change my strategy but basically gave up with large sections of the racing partly due to not wanting to put the same level of effort in and partly due to declining liqudity.
Cheers for your Lion Hearted comments. No surprise the TF was so poor last time given the ridiculously slow pace they went. Still maintain he's done well to win given how hard he pulled. Should be back next week at Chelmsford.
Yes. Mostly through necessity. When I started betting seriously it was pre-Betfair and hence I was betting with bookmakers. In those days the early price opportunities with bookmakers gave you MUCH better value because the Betfair markets didn't exist and cause the prices to be slashed before you could bet. Can recall plenty of times backing horses (average stake at the time 200-500 quid) at more than double the SP. You could win more before you got your accounts closed in those days.
On Betfair I didn't intentionally change my strategy but basically gave up with large sections of the racing partly due to not wanting to put the same level of effort in and partly due to declining liqudity.
Cheers for your Lion Hearted comments. No surprise the TF was so poor last time given the ridiculously slow pace they went. Still maintain he's done well to win given how hard he pulled. Should be back next week at Chelmsford.
Thanks for the write up BB, one of the things that attracted me to BF is the fact you don't have to talk to anyone. Over the years I have always been involved in sales and recruitment and spoken to all sorts.
I have found that most people are liars and will just waste a lot of your time. To a certain extent I am free to relax and trade/bet on here in a relaxed environment at home with my wife and cats around. I wish I knew now back in the early days, I just used to lay horses I didn't fancy.
After reading more about trading on here I have been doing more of that and have good runs and bad runs, as things do tend to alter on here although there are many styles of trading and betting to try and I feel comfortable with the one's I do now.
I have found that most people are liars and will just waste a lot of your time. To a certain extent I am free to relax and trade/bet on here in a relaxed environment at home with my wife and cats around. I wish I knew now back in the early days, I just used to lay horses I didn't fancy.
After reading more about trading on here I have been doing more of that and have good runs and bad runs, as things do tend to alter on here although there are many styles of trading and betting to try and I feel comfortable with the one's I do now.
A good, and well-written, read. Horse Racing has never been my thing, with a lesson early in life enough probably saving me a fortune over the years. https://green-all-over.blogspot.com/2009/01/two-swallows.html
May I ask why you only seem to bet on Horse Racing? In my opinion, other sports offer better opportunities to make money. If you have the skills to be profitable in Horse Racing over 20 years, I'd suggest that in less popular markets you could do even better. You don't have to like the sport and watch the games!
May I ask why you only seem to bet on Horse Racing? In my opinion, other sports offer better opportunities to make money. If you have the skills to be profitable in Horse Racing over 20 years, I'd suggest that in less popular markets you could do even better. You don't have to like the sport and watch the games!
Interesting and well written post Barton Bank - more confirmation on how the exchange has gone, if needed
cpfc4me, what makes you think I would be able to make money betting on sports that I may not necessarily like or know anything about? I concentrated on Horse Racing because the two sports I know more about than the vast majority of punters are Horse Racing and Rugby League. It is virtually impossible to get a worthwhile bet on the latter (sometimes even the TV games have hardly any money in the markets). Horse Racing offered strong markets initially where an edge in knowledge made it easy to get bets on at over the true odds. Nowadays it doesn't because hardly anyone bar the people who really know what they doing are betting on them on the exchanges.
Great post, Barton.
Well worth a read for anyone spending time on here.
I can identify, in particular, with your MOTIVATION paragraph. We can all keep impeccable records of our betting activity based on monetary profit and loss but it's a different story when it comes to knowing how much time we are spending doing what we do. There comes a point where we need to recognise that the time spent betting, or thinking about it, may not be worth it anymore.
The industry has all changed so much in the past 20 years. I used to work for one of the big chains and one of my biggest life interests now is highlighting how much more could and should be done by the betting industry and Governments to help that small proportion of bettors that have a serious addiction problem.
Well done on your decision and thanks for your very insightful post; you seem like a very wise man.
Well worth a read for anyone spending time on here.
I can identify, in particular, with your MOTIVATION paragraph. We can all keep impeccable records of our betting activity based on monetary profit and loss but it's a different story when it comes to knowing how much time we are spending doing what we do. There comes a point where we need to recognise that the time spent betting, or thinking about it, may not be worth it anymore.
The industry has all changed so much in the past 20 years. I used to work for one of the big chains and one of my biggest life interests now is highlighting how much more could and should be done by the betting industry and Governments to help that small proportion of bettors that have a serious addiction problem.
Well done on your decision and thanks for your very insightful post; you seem like a very wise man.
@Barton Bank - what makes you think I would be able to make money betting on sports that I may not necessarily like or know anything about?
It's a common misconception that it's easier to make money betting on sports you like or know anything about, over other sports. In fact, this confidence in one's knowledge is often an over confidence, and leads to losses. It can be an advantage NOT to know anything about the sport, as it allows you to focus solely on objective data. Since you appear to have the ability to analyze data, you should be able to use this skill in other sports where there is plenty of data, and only two or three possible outcomes. It's about reading markets and numbers (data) - the teams, sports, participants are all irrelevant.
It's a common misconception that it's easier to make money betting on sports you like or know anything about, over other sports. In fact, this confidence in one's knowledge is often an over confidence, and leads to losses. It can be an advantage NOT to know anything about the sport, as it allows you to focus solely on objective data. Since you appear to have the ability to analyze data, you should be able to use this skill in other sports where there is plenty of data, and only two or three possible outcomes. It's about reading markets and numbers (data) - the teams, sports, participants are all irrelevant.
I don't believe it to be a misconception that it is easier to make money on sports you know something about. Yes, I can analayse data but I'm not interested enough to spend my time number crunching even if the sports have sufficent liqudity (and most won't) to justify the effort. I don't need the money and I wouldn't enjoy it.
Reb, missed your post. Cheers for your good wishes. Good luck trying to get the betting industry and Goverment to listen to you.
Apr 7, 2019 -- 12:29PM, Barton Bank wrote:
Will try and answer your question about whether my betting evolved -Yes. Mostly through necessity. When I started betting seriously it was pre-Betfair and hence I was betting with bookmakers. In those days the early price opportunities with bookmakers gave you MUCH better value because the Betfair markets didn't exist and cause the prices to be slashed before you could bet. Can recall plenty of times backing horses (average stake at the time 200-500 quid) at more than double the SP. You could win more before you got your accounts closed in those days. On Betfair I didn't intentionally change my strategy but basically gave up with large sections of the racing partly due to not wanting to put the same level of effort in and partly due to declining liqudity. Cheers for your Lion Hearted comments. No surprise the TF was so poor last time given the ridiculously slow pace they went. Still maintain he's done well to win given how hard he pulled. Should be back next week at Chelmsford.
exactly being able to win off that slow pace last time out and the previous win, when lion hearted achieved that TS 76, were all positives. well done to yourself and connections.
Good Luck Barton Bank. I haven't posted for ages but I'm still doing well, the last two years my best ever. Chairman of Barrow now so can't bet on Rugby League. Enjoyed your posts on the Rugby forum and I used to hear a lot about you at the Betfair hospitality days but they said you generally turned the invites down. I enjoyed those days but my invites are now counted on one finger per year as they prefer to invite the big losers.
Hello, the man. Long time no speak. I can't bet on Rugby League now because you provided all the liqudity and are not allowed to! I didn't tend to bother with the invites because they generally interfered with me keeping on top of the racing and making money. Now I am not wanting to work my ass off on a daily basis, they never offer any! Sod's law. Didn't know you were chairman of Barrow. I am sure you will be less controversial than Mr Johnson. Not impossible I will join the board at Widnes at some stage in the not too distant future.
Good luck Barton, I'll be leaving as well next week. I've received an email from betfair informing me that my usage is consistent with a " commercial user " despite not using bots and these days placing maybe 6 bets a week all under £100 on football matches. If that represents commercial use lol probably best I leave this site as after calling up the customer services line , I was advised to email the "relevant department" as they couldn't help. The betfair customer service these days is truly awful and don't believe the site is as secure as it was when I joined over a decade ago.
As if I'm going to deposit any major sums when an email comes through basically stating they can close accounts at any time if they are believed to be commercial ( wrongly) and no contact number to even discuss it, just an email address where they may or may not respond. This place is utterly farcical these days and now in my 40s time to call it a day leaving the bot geeks to it. I've never understood "bots " and had any interest in them which seems to be the only way to make money long term on here... it stopped being a sports betting site years ago and is now more a site for who has the most advanced software.
As if I'm going to deposit any major sums when an email comes through basically stating they can close accounts at any time if they are believed to be commercial ( wrongly) and no contact number to even discuss it, just an email address where they may or may not respond. This place is utterly farcical these days and now in my 40s time to call it a day leaving the bot geeks to it. I've never understood "bots " and had any interest in them which seems to be the only way to make money long term on here... it stopped being a sports betting site years ago and is now more a site for who has the most advanced software.
No mention of the higher premium charge BB? Surely you must be paying that.
Great post BB and I will miss you.Take care my friend.
I believe the biggest scandal in the betting industry post FOBT ,is account restrictions.
Even people in the house of lords who enjoy a bet have had their accounts restricted.
It's about time the government do something to prevent value customers been singled out.
After all the bookies entice customers in with their value offers.
It's a national disgrace that this is allowed to happen.
Where is the gambling commission.When is the government going to help.
I agree with you barton that the exchange markets are unplayable now and will be for decades to come.
I believe the biggest scandal in the betting industry post FOBT ,is account restrictions.
Even people in the house of lords who enjoy a bet have had their accounts restricted.
It's about time the government do something to prevent value customers been singled out.
After all the bookies entice customers in with their value offers.
It's a national disgrace that this is allowed to happen.
Where is the gambling commission.When is the government going to help.
I agree with you barton that the exchange markets are unplayable now and will be for decades to come.
Great post. Anyone who shows the slightest modicum of ability around horseracing will have their accounts restricted in double-quick time. I think more and more people will end up trading and liquidity will actually increase over time. But there's no guarantee here.
Don't think that will happen as most of the people restricted will be backers so will be more on the exchanges fighting for less money. It would be better if bookmakers actually stood a bet to lose say £500 on a no frills account basis.
Good luck, posts always informative.
Sad this couldn’t go on the Horse Racing forum for all the guff.
Sad this couldn’t go on the Horse Racing forum for all the guff.
Blogger: Barton Bank's blog
Interesting point Lewisham. When I made the vast majority of my money I was betting about 360 days a year bar the very occasional holiday and a 6-month break from serious punting I took in 2005. I don't regret doing it but there were times when it was stressful and I always kept contact with other people and had the odd hobby. I know of some propunters who have said they went days without speaking to people in person.
Sounds like wagon driving
| reportbloc
Interesting point Lewisham. When I made the vast majority of my money I was betting about 360 days a year bar the very occasional holiday and a 6-month break from serious punting I took in 2005. I don't regret doing it but there were times when it was stressful and I always kept contact with other people and had the odd hobby. I know of some propunters who have said they went days without speaking to people in person.
Sounds like wagon driving
| reportbloc
For some reason I didn't mention the poor and unreliable performance of this website in my opening post on this thread. Shocking omission.
I have discovered that too, Barton. For various reasons the exchange doesn't operate as well as it used to. Yet another reason to walk away from spending time on here.
Thanks again for that very lucid opening post.
Thanks again for that very lucid opening post.
I wish Betfair would offer more USA markets on the betting exchange.PaddyPower/Betfair really is a great company and I have supported them since 1999 and will continue to support them.
I understand the betting industry is in a bit of trouble but I think PPBetfair have shone above rivals as they was first to accept the new £2 max stake on the shop FOBTS.
A lot of guys I go racing with really respect that they have the interests of the industry and their customers at heart.
I understand the betting industry is in a bit of trouble but I think PPBetfair have shone above rivals as they was first to accept the new £2 max stake on the shop FOBTS.
A lot of guys I go racing with really respect that they have the interests of the industry and their customers at heart.
A most interesting read Barton Bank, thanks for taking the time to post it. Been old school myself and having never got to grips with technology I never really fully understood what went on here. I have been betting for a vast number of years, several on here.
I go racing most days in Ireland and visit the U.K. several times a year. My thing is the paddock and watching horses and how they look and act minutes before they go to post. I'm stilling going strong thank God, something you mentioned around putting so many hours in per day, having studied form paper wise for years and the time it consumed still shocks me. What I did learn and it applies to this day if after burning the candle for hours or even spending a little less time watching them in the paddock , it matters not a jot if the trainer utters these words . Not today....
Best of luck to you enjoy your time away from here and every success in the future...
I go racing most days in Ireland and visit the U.K. several times a year. My thing is the paddock and watching horses and how they look and act minutes before they go to post. I'm stilling going strong thank God, something you mentioned around putting so many hours in per day, having studied form paper wise for years and the time it consumed still shocks me. What I did learn and it applies to this day if after burning the candle for hours or even spending a little less time watching them in the paddock , it matters not a jot if the trainer utters these words . Not today....
Best of luck to you enjoy your time away from here and every success in the future...
Good luck BB. Everyone's position is different but if you've got the money it gives you options. Good post from big aitch. Racing and making a bit from it is a good game. Your approach does make things harder as you get older. I increasingly do IR /trades. Less form study needed.
Nice post and good luck Barton Bank. Can I ask, what if anything would make you want to continue? And a question to everyone else, what do you think the future is for the exchange? There has always been talk of diminishing liquidity, empty markets, BF sports book stealing the new potential 'mugs' etc, but despite the doom and gloom many of us are still here and surviving. (By the way I haven't had a day off for 10 years, mad I know haha). Do any of you dabble with the other exchanges too? Personally I still believe that the exchange concept surely must be the future of betting, such a fantastic idea, but somehow it has never quite made it, in terms of killing off the bookies. By now BF exchange should be as huge as facebook, it should be the go to place for a bet. I still think if not BF, then another operator will emerge to dominate. How can this not happen? I think the BF sports book was wrong to use the same name. The BF brand should be dedicated to exchange betting, they do still advertise as I'm sure you've all seen, so I don't think they're trying to implode. I find it frustrating as it's a revolution still waiting to happen, just can't quite get there, and directing customers to BF sports book may be why. Did anyone notice the amounts matched on the cricket this week? £100 million just on the match odds. So much potential still. Interested to hear other's predictions on the future of the exchange over the next few years? 
Only just stumbled across this thread and i am saddened and somewhat surprised by BB wanting to pack up betting on the GGs. I do agree with most of the reasons you put up as being valid but everything in life changes/evolves and i'm sure the exchange will as well, obviously the big early prerace layers have largely gone and the markets aren't really formed until 5 mins before the off. I have spoked to BB on here and read his knowledgeable posts on here over the years. What i would say to you BB is how do you think you are going to fill the void left by not spending a lot of your time studying form etc, an awful lot of time to fill imo. Yes you can holiday more often, more City breaks etc but when you're at home most of the year what are you going to do? Take up Golf, Bowls, Gym etc-how incredibly boring, If as i suspect you are or have been a successful businessman then you're not really betting for the money are you, yes it's nice to get a bit of tax free income on top but i suspect like me it's the mental challenge and stimulation that has got you involved and kept you betting on the GGs.
I agree entirely with you about the time consuming aspect of it, but perhaps if you try to cover less of it, pick an age group,distance, flat, jumps, hurdles,chases, AW, Turf etc. Concentrate on the type of races your horses run in, ie) class 5/6 or whatever, there's plenty of ways to make it easier.
Personally i think if you love racing you won't be able to walk away from it, you'll be bored, also how can you replace the mental stimulus as you get older?
I agree entirely with you about the time consuming aspect of it, but perhaps if you try to cover less of it, pick an age group,distance, flat, jumps, hurdles,chases, AW, Turf etc. Concentrate on the type of races your horses run in, ie) class 5/6 or whatever, there's plenty of ways to make it easier.
Personally i think if you love racing you won't be able to walk away from it, you'll be bored, also how can you replace the mental stimulus as you get older?
Hi folks. Thanks for all the good wishes. Trev, I think the future of exchange betting on racing is one of gradual decline. Bookmakers can take the bets of customers they can win from and Betfair has chosen to do the same with the Sportsbook. The exchange is not promoted much really. Exchange betting clearly has a future when it comes to major markets on sports like football and cricket and I think a lot of my points about the state of the exchange/liqudity are essentially more racing issues than Betfair issues.
Stewarts - Some good questions there. I'm not a businessman of any type. I've made my living from betting. Betting to my stakes requires strong markets and they don't exist any more. Am doing a fair bit of travelling (been to Scotland and Germany in last month and off to Costa Rica in the autumn) and have one or two other hobbies. Golf isn't my thing but I play a fair bit of squash (not particulary well but I very much enjoy it, it certainly doesn't bore me!). You can get mental stimulation from many things in life. At the moment I don't feel inclined to spend my time poring through the form only to find I can wait all day for a price and then watch it disappear before I can get a worthwhile bet on. Maybe one day that wll change again. I still have several horses in training in sole/part ownership and am very much involved with placing them to best advantage which provides an ongoing interest.
Stewarts - Some good questions there. I'm not a businessman of any type. I've made my living from betting. Betting to my stakes requires strong markets and they don't exist any more. Am doing a fair bit of travelling (been to Scotland and Germany in last month and off to Costa Rica in the autumn) and have one or two other hobbies. Golf isn't my thing but I play a fair bit of squash (not particulary well but I very much enjoy it, it certainly doesn't bore me!). You can get mental stimulation from many things in life. At the moment I don't feel inclined to spend my time poring through the form only to find I can wait all day for a price and then watch it disappear before I can get a worthwhile bet on. Maybe one day that wll change again. I still have several horses in training in sole/part ownership and am very much involved with placing them to best advantage which provides an ongoing interest.
Good Luck Barton. Winners are very few so congratulations and I hope you enjoy your retirement. It's nice to hear of someone retiring ahead and having mostly enjoyed it.
I'm not sure you can get a flat 500GBP on the horses early prices any more. Not on an ordinary race.
Enjoy your retirement Barton Bank. My brain chemistry is fried and I'm not sure I could stop. I'm not even a full-timer or a large winner.
Enjoy your retirement Barton Bank. My brain chemistry is fried and I'm not sure I could stop. I'm not even a full-timer or a large winner.
Good luck bb you've been around a long time, i myself dont use betfair no where near as much for horse racing i prefer cash and the thrill of chatting talking rubbish in the bookies about it, my bettings changed, normal now to just deal in the major race days big meetings or something sticks out at kilarney as yesterday and just been a week of no bets before betting yesterday. Having to back 4 5 6 sometimes to net the winner by the clever trainers at the big meetings has seen me change this last few years but highly profitable. Football never really done it until last season and took it seriously and was surprised how easy it was with cashout its rare i lost on a weekly basis as i do know a bit about football but have no thoughts or allegiance to any given teams so i look at it at a different angle to most. the only experience needed was to take the 400 offered when youve got 3 teams left all odds on to win an a sunday and 2 get beaten, i soon learnt and cashout the way to go with multiple teams selections and not be so greedy. So this year its full steam on the footie and major meetings. It given me a new lease of life really and enjoying it more as i used to watch every race every day live for years so i didnt miss anything but happier to not watch any unless its on normal tv, it sure has changed they have seriously fk the flat up with all these meetings low grade fodder. good luck
I think horses will still be around for quite some time. I thought greyhounds were dead and there are still pros making a living on the dogs. It'll take at least 20 years for horses to become as niche as dogs.
Well done BB and enjoy your retirement. It's hard to make a living on here and it's only going to get harder. Being able to retire while ahead is a supreme skill.
i will say that you guys that make a profit are in the 2% bracket, 98% of us lose over time and thats what keeps bookies smiling though 2019 is shaping up to be the first year ive made a profit over a calender year , ive had 26 losing years so due a winning one, most punters dont understand the concept of value and most never will and while that happens bookies will be laughing,, my local baldies even changed its roulette games to double zero and guess what punters still play despite that, just takes longer to lose your shirt and almost impossible to win it back
Purely out of nosiness Matt have you stayed away from Betfair ,or have you found a compromise that allows you to live a more balanced life whilst still pursuing shall we say a profitable pastime.
Trader PJ's rather succint post covers a big chunk of what I typed in far fewer words!
Posy, not really punting in any serious way. Doing a lot of travelling. Certainly backing the horses I have involvement with when I think they are good value. Which is less often than not, tbh.
Posy, not really punting in any serious way. Doing a lot of travelling. Certainly backing the horses I have involvement with when I think they are good value. Which is less often than not, tbh.
A fascinating post and thread BB.
Some very poignant thoughts and hard to disagree with much write.
Good luck with whatever you do in the future.
Some very poignant thoughts and hard to disagree with much write.
Good luck with whatever you do in the future.
The liquidity is finished on the exchange now.Just bots with zero value.
There is allways value to be had.
999/1 i/r backer in a 4 hoss race yesterday @ Kempton.
He had value with bells on
999/1 i/r backer in a 4 hoss race yesterday @ Kempton.
He had value with bells on
A bit late to the thread but wishing you well Barton. You lasted a decade longer than I did !
Betfair became a job for me, it's as simple as that. The constant pursuit of money becomes less attractive as one ages. That in no way is a criticism of those who devote the major part of their lives to betting. I did just that for a very long time. Betfair was a phenomenal boost to us tired old moaners. Laying horses was manna from heaven to those of us too lazy to pick up the formbook and really study. It worked though and it was sheer boredom that got to me eventually. You stating that the markets are somewhat non existent these days I find incredible. Yes most of the action was round the market leaders back then, but I never would have imagined the fluctuations you speak of and the paucity of liquidity. Manipulation was fairly mild ten years ago, now it must be rife.
Of course Betfair changed too. The Sportsbook really is an admission of defeat for the original concept. "The death of bookmakers" Andrew Black announced and many of us believed that possible. So now the once revered 'sharp minds' cannot back or lay at value and also get restricted on the Sportsbook. Astonishing that some still try...or have most become traders ?
The bigger bonus for us retirees of course is that we rediscover that there is an interesting world out there. A lunch date is not ended at 1.30 so we can get in front of the computer for the 2.00 daily dross first race.
Hope you are enjoying your retirement BB, this virus has illustrated the fragility of life...and good luck to all on the thread who are making their living solely from gambling. I reckon I'd be good odds against to be one of you with the obstacles BB has so articulately described.
Betfair became a job for me, it's as simple as that. The constant pursuit of money becomes less attractive as one ages. That in no way is a criticism of those who devote the major part of their lives to betting. I did just that for a very long time. Betfair was a phenomenal boost to us tired old moaners. Laying horses was manna from heaven to those of us too lazy to pick up the formbook and really study. It worked though and it was sheer boredom that got to me eventually. You stating that the markets are somewhat non existent these days I find incredible. Yes most of the action was round the market leaders back then, but I never would have imagined the fluctuations you speak of and the paucity of liquidity. Manipulation was fairly mild ten years ago, now it must be rife.
Of course Betfair changed too. The Sportsbook really is an admission of defeat for the original concept. "The death of bookmakers" Andrew Black announced and many of us believed that possible. So now the once revered 'sharp minds' cannot back or lay at value and also get restricted on the Sportsbook. Astonishing that some still try...or have most become traders ?
The bigger bonus for us retirees of course is that we rediscover that there is an interesting world out there. A lunch date is not ended at 1.30 so we can get in front of the computer for the 2.00 daily dross first race.
Hope you are enjoying your retirement BB, this virus has illustrated the fragility of life...and good luck to all on the thread who are making their living solely from gambling. I reckon I'd be good odds against to be one of you with the obstacles BB has so articulately described.
Jan 14, 2020 -- 10:38AM, John.W.Henry. wrote:
A fascinating post and thread BB. Some very poignant thoughts and hard to disagree with much write. Good luck with whatever you do in the future.
I'll second that.
So now the once revered 'sharp minds' cannot back or lay at value and also get restricted on the Sportsbook.
So a horse has traded between 4.5 and 6.6 and there is no value ???
If you cannot win playing the horses on here you have wasted your time .
So a horse has traded between 4.5 and 6.6 and there is no value ???
If you cannot win playing the horses on here you have wasted your time .
BB,
I missed this thread when you did it but mirroring your reasons, I retired on exactly the same day! I haven't bothered since and don't miss it at all. Reading a few threads here for the first time in ages and it seems like things haven't got any better.
The only thing I'd add to your list is the appalling IR camera angles we started having back then. Despite technology improving we started seeing less of a race, winners were regularly dropping off screen with close-ups appearing to be designed to assist on track players. I never got caught out but continuing to bet blind didn't appeal. I have no idea if that's still the same.
I hope you are doing OK and good luck.
I missed this thread when you did it but mirroring your reasons, I retired on exactly the same day! I haven't bothered since and don't miss it at all. Reading a few threads here for the first time in ages and it seems like things haven't got any better.
The only thing I'd add to your list is the appalling IR camera angles we started having back then. Despite technology improving we started seeing less of a race, winners were regularly dropping off screen with close-ups appearing to be designed to assist on track players. I never got caught out but continuing to bet blind didn't appeal. I have no idea if that's still the same.
I hope you are doing OK and good luck.
i posted above in 2019 and im still doing the big meetings only my biggest days betting apart from cheltenham festival comes up next saturday and sunday in ireland, still doing the footy but found crypto and shares and that is proper gambling that now takes up about 70% of my time finished with normal horseracing daily oh the corruption when running for 3-5 k is shocking so do not miss that at all having beenn full time for last 35 years.
crypto and shares is no different to the horses suits the gambler the ups and downs and making plenty just the same studying and been a bit clever but its taken over now and far larger bets like lots of bit bets as its gambling on entain shares draftking and the like out of the pension sipp dont take a annuity my tip,i could beat most pension funds with my eyes closed all they do is gamble on the stockmarket with your money and keep most of it, and im on crypto look at argo blockchain and the like for your exposure to crypto on the stockmarket i would never do those big sums of money on the horses the footy i do more after february but normal bets
crypto and shares is no different to the horses suits the gambler the ups and downs and making plenty just the same studying and been a bit clever but its taken over now and far larger bets like lots of bit bets as its gambling on entain shares draftking and the like out of the pension sipp dont take a annuity my tip,i could beat most pension funds with my eyes closed all they do is gamble on the stockmarket with your money and keep most of it, and im on crypto look at argo blockchain and the like for your exposure to crypto on the stockmarket i would never do those big sums of money on the horses the footy i do more after february but normal bets
im enjoying it thanks DG12 be better when the winter ends
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