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23 Sep 11
10:48
Joined:
Date Joined:
29 Mar 02
Active customers down 19 per cent to 381,000. acording to the report below.
Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2040750/MARKET-REPORT-Betfair-shuffles-executives.html#ixzz1YlFAewy6
'The news that Betfair founder and chairman Edward Wray could be the next senior manager to leave the embattled online gambling firm, will be met with raised eyebrows among investors.
The FTSE 250 business, which allows gamblers to bet against each other rather than against a traditional bookmaker, is already looking for a new chief executive after David Yu said in June he would move on when a successor is found.
But at yesterday’s annual meeting Wray, a former JP Morgan trader who co-founded the business ten years ago, said the firm had ‘started the search for a deputy chairman. The intention is for this person to take over from me as chairman at an appropriate time in the future’. This follows a spate of other senior executives who have also left the business in recent months.
And while all this has gone on investors have seen Betfair’s stock almost halve since it floated last October at £13, with a value of £1.3billion. Betfair yesterday closed down 60p at 723p, valuing it at £839million. The business has faced a number of disappointments and delays as it has tried to push its services into a host of European countries, such as Germany, Denmark, Italy and Spain.
And in August the UK government revealed online gaming companies based offshore would need a domestic licence to take bets from British customers. Betfair moved its headquarters to Gibraltar in March to save around £20million a year.
These constraints on growth are beginning to affect the business, at the start of this month the firm turned in first-quarter core sales down 7pc to £80.8million, with the number of active customers down 19 per cent to 381,000.
For Betfair the wider economic climate is tough, and the regulatory issues it faces are protracted. Investors will want to see a settled management quickly in place, who can then set about getting the share price moving in the right direction again.'
Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2040750/MARKET-REPORT-Betfair-shuffles-executives.html#ixzz1YlFAewy6
'The news that Betfair founder and chairman Edward Wray could be the next senior manager to leave the embattled online gambling firm, will be met with raised eyebrows among investors.
The FTSE 250 business, which allows gamblers to bet against each other rather than against a traditional bookmaker, is already looking for a new chief executive after David Yu said in June he would move on when a successor is found.
But at yesterday’s annual meeting Wray, a former JP Morgan trader who co-founded the business ten years ago, said the firm had ‘started the search for a deputy chairman. The intention is for this person to take over from me as chairman at an appropriate time in the future’. This follows a spate of other senior executives who have also left the business in recent months.
And while all this has gone on investors have seen Betfair’s stock almost halve since it floated last October at £13, with a value of £1.3billion. Betfair yesterday closed down 60p at 723p, valuing it at £839million. The business has faced a number of disappointments and delays as it has tried to push its services into a host of European countries, such as Germany, Denmark, Italy and Spain.
And in August the UK government revealed online gaming companies based offshore would need a domestic licence to take bets from British customers. Betfair moved its headquarters to Gibraltar in March to save around £20million a year.
These constraints on growth are beginning to affect the business, at the start of this month the firm turned in first-quarter core sales down 7pc to £80.8million, with the number of active customers down 19 per cent to 381,000.
For Betfair the wider economic climate is tough, and the regulatory issues it faces are protracted. Investors will want to see a settled management quickly in place, who can then set about getting the share price moving in the right direction again.'
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Betfair welcomes winners*
( * winners must belong to the betfair company, its directorship or its invvestors, those soley using the services may be charged unfairly)
( * winners must belong to the betfair company, its directorship or its invvestors, those soley using the services may be charged unfairly)
Previous thread is not official, its just my opinion thank you
Where do the traders who are leaving betfair go? The liquidity on the purple site is terrible & the bookies is for losers.
weatherman2004
Because my losses include the career I walked away from.
The question still stands.
Because my losses include the career I walked away from.
The question still stands.
Hi mac
Where do the traders who are leaving betfair go? The liquidity on the purple site is terrible & the bookies is for losers.
Well the founders made big bucks and they've gone, the last director got a massive pay rise and hes going, now your expecting all the best customers to except an extra 40% cut in profits and stay!
Where do the traders who are leaving betfair go? The liquidity on the purple site is terrible & the bookies is for losers.
Well the founders made big bucks and they've gone, the last director got a massive pay rise and hes going, now your expecting all the best customers to except an extra 40% cut in profits and stay!
If anyone understands business then work this one out
If there are 1 million active customers and 2000 staff then it takes 500 customers to keep each betfair employee in a job, nevermind all the other overheads, thats the real reason why betdak can keep commission charges down while betfair makes the winners hand over 60% of other customers losses as betfair is now a lumbering giant.
If there are 1 million active customers and 2000 staff then it takes 500 customers to keep each betfair employee in a job, nevermind all the other overheads, thats the real reason why betdak can keep commission charges down while betfair makes the winners hand over 60% of other customers losses as betfair is now a lumbering giant.
My post seemed condescending, sorry about that, I could have worded it better.
There are obvious ways to increase the commission you pay for turnover, without going to underhand means or the dreaded (avoid).
And even if you are in trouble for lifetime profits, you can still reduce premium charges, so that in the future they will completely diminish.
Hold onto your hats, it won't be too long before the founders start a competitor site, as soon as the agreement runs out.
It the way all business goes, if the previous model was successful.
For Feck's sake [:p] let me spell it out.
If your method means that your profit comes from a weeny teeny percentage of turnover, you can expect to pay some sort of PC.
It seems obvious and logical to me, to find something that is breakeven after commission and turnover as much money as you can, thereby generating commission paid and reducing your overall commission rate. End result is you get back to where you were before PC, you may still have to pay PC, but it won't hurt because a) it will be less and b) offset by your reduction in overall commission.
Of course you have a shot at it weatherman, you won't pay PC unless you don't pay your way in commission.
Either don't become a trader, scalper, bookmaker, or generate some extra commission as above.
There are obvious ways to increase the commission you pay for turnover, without going to underhand means or the dreaded (avoid).
And even if you are in trouble for lifetime profits, you can still reduce premium charges, so that in the future they will completely diminish.
Hold onto your hats, it won't be too long before the founders start a competitor site, as soon as the agreement runs out.
It the way all business goes, if the previous model was successful.
For Feck's sake [:p] let me spell it out.
If your method means that your profit comes from a weeny teeny percentage of turnover, you can expect to pay some sort of PC.
It seems obvious and logical to me, to find something that is breakeven after commission and turnover as much money as you can, thereby generating commission paid and reducing your overall commission rate. End result is you get back to where you were before PC, you may still have to pay PC, but it won't hurt because a) it will be less and b) offset by your reduction in overall commission.
Of course you have a shot at it weatherman, you won't pay PC unless you don't pay your way in commission.
Either don't become a trader, scalper, bookmaker, or generate some extra commission as above.
bff,
I totally agree, you know what happened to Betfair happens in retail all the time. They got too big too fast, they want to own the world without establishing the proper infrastructure to ensure a solid profit, without taxing their own customers.
There are heaps of overheads to pay, the number is actually mind boggling, but even moving offshore, with all the High Court challenges etc etc. It's little wonder things are tough.
By introducing the extra taxes, they are making it extremely unattractive to new clients in current and new countries.
If I were a prospective new user, the first place I would go is the Terms and Conditions, the second place is the forum.
Case closed.
I totally agree, you know what happened to Betfair happens in retail all the time. They got too big too fast, they want to own the world without establishing the proper infrastructure to ensure a solid profit, without taxing their own customers.
There are heaps of overheads to pay, the number is actually mind boggling, but even moving offshore, with all the High Court challenges etc etc. It's little wonder things are tough.
By introducing the extra taxes, they are making it extremely unattractive to new clients in current and new countries.
If I were a prospective new user, the first place I would go is the Terms and Conditions, the second place is the forum.
Case closed.
And even if you are in trouble for lifetime profits, you can still reduce premium charges, so that in the future they will completely diminish.
Again, you miss the point.
I have made a living on here. Enough to not have to do anything else.
But I've made it at 3.5%.
Either your comments are aimed at me, in which case they are inaccurate, or they are aimed at those under 250k profits, and 19% of them appear to have left.
Again, you miss the point.
I have made a living on here. Enough to not have to do anything else.
But I've made it at 3.5%.
Either your comments are aimed at me, in which case they are inaccurate, or they are aimed at those under 250k profits, and 19% of them appear to have left.
Whats the real reason both founders are now out?
the top guys don't see a future in the company and are out?
the city values betfair at 640 not 1300?
betfair ate 400 million investment from an investor so many years ago?
betfair looking for investment via the city in the first place?
betfair further purges a lot of money from its top customers?
anybody can read between the lines of all this wreck-less behavior
the top guys don't see a future in the company and are out?
the city values betfair at 640 not 1300?
betfair ate 400 million investment from an investor so many years ago?
betfair looking for investment via the city in the first place?
betfair further purges a lot of money from its top customers?
anybody can read between the lines of all this wreck-less behavior
Weatherman, it's not clear why you can't continue to make a profit.
Further more its staff seem to be full of glee while its customers are very concerned
its all false economy
its all false economy
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/horse-racing
Betfair's links with its founding team continue to become more remote. Co-founder Andrew Black no longer has a day-to-day role at the now publicly listed company and news came last week that the chairman, Ed Wray, the other co-founder, was also departing. There was further woe for the company when one-time polished frontman, Mark Davies, took out a High Court writ recently. Davies and his wife, Miranda, are suing their law firm Speechly Bircham for around £4m. They allege they wanted to sell their company shareholding after the initial offering but claim they were told the shares could not be sold because they were not properly registered. The share price has gone from £15.50, when they say they were given the advice in October 2010, to £6.05 when they issued the writ.
Betfair's links with its founding team continue to become more remote. Co-founder Andrew Black no longer has a day-to-day role at the now publicly listed company and news came last week that the chairman, Ed Wray, the other co-founder, was also departing. There was further woe for the company when one-time polished frontman, Mark Davies, took out a High Court writ recently. Davies and his wife, Miranda, are suing their law firm Speechly Bircham for around £4m. They allege they wanted to sell their company shareholding after the initial offering but claim they were told the shares could not be sold because they were not properly registered. The share price has gone from £15.50, when they say they were given the advice in October 2010, to £6.05 when they issued the writ.
Have I misread this? If so, I apologise.
weatherman2004
I had 2 years losing on here, but stuck at it thinking one day it would work and I would make back all I'd lost. Imposing a £250k limit destroys that.
weatherman2004
I had 2 years losing on here, but stuck at it thinking one day it would work and I would make back all I'd lost. Imposing a £250k limit destroys that.
Yes, but I bet you have a lot of catching up to do.
You should be concerned as if your one of the few 1 million keeping betfair going, investors pumping money in, or even worse a successful punter handing over some of your winnings in the form of a super tax , how much will you need to keep giving them before they finally hit the deck?
Yes, you have.
Those 2 years were 2004/5.
But the context explains it:
I wondered when they introduced it how many customers are like me back then. It seems quite a few.
Those 2 years were 2004/5.
But the context explains it:
I wondered when they introduced it how many customers are like me back then. It seems quite a few.
I don't think they are going to hit the deck. My profits are up since the implementation of pc2, why should I be concerned?
How do you tell a good egg from a bad egg?
Well its very hard to tell as they both look the same, but if you wait long enough one will start emitting bad smells and one will hatch into something much better.
Well its very hard to tell as they both look the same, but if you wait long enough one will start emitting bad smells and one will hatch into something much better.
Ah, I see. I should be concerned about my breakfast? I'm about to make it actually, I'll report back here is there are any problems.
[;)]
[;)]
so cat your full of glee too, lets call that profit related denial , betfair shares your feeling and your profits ,
but betfair wont make itself efficient, something all good pro- punters have to do every day and thats where in my view the real problem lies.
but betfair wont make itself efficient, something all good pro- punters have to do every day and thats where in my view the real problem lies.
I don't think we're really talking about that much profit, though, are we?
Incentivising losing customers to leave should concern you.
Incentivising losing customers to leave should concern you.
If observation and comment is not allowed then the
Again, you miss the point.
I have made a living on here. Enough to not have to do anything else.
But I've made it at 3.5%.
Either your comments are aimed at me, in which case they are inaccurate, or they are aimed at those under 250k profits, and 19% of them appear to have left.
Well I'm struggling to make sense of what you've written.
Either you are leaving something out, or you're just giving up.
I haven't missed any point given what you've written.
I had 2 years losing on here, but stuck at it thinking one day it would work and I would make back all I'd lost. Imposing a £250k limit destroys that.
Clearly you don't understand how premium charge is implemented.
How is it destroyed if you've already lost for two years and want to get your money back?
And even if you do get some tier of premium charge, what's stopping you reducing your commission rate to compensate?
So imposing a 350k limit destroys that, yet I have made a living on here. Enough to not have to do anything else.
So clearly it hasn't stopped you or anyone else getting money back they already lost!
But I've made it at 3.5%.
So?
If you have to pay a PC, then push your commission down to 3.25%
I don't see what the problem is.
I don't agree with Premium Charges, but your argument lacks substance.
I have made a living on here. Enough to not have to do anything else.
But I've made it at 3.5%.
Either your comments are aimed at me, in which case they are inaccurate, or they are aimed at those under 250k profits, and 19% of them appear to have left.
Well I'm struggling to make sense of what you've written.
Either you are leaving something out, or you're just giving up.
I haven't missed any point given what you've written.
I had 2 years losing on here, but stuck at it thinking one day it would work and I would make back all I'd lost. Imposing a £250k limit destroys that.
Clearly you don't understand how premium charge is implemented.
How is it destroyed if you've already lost for two years and want to get your money back?
And even if you do get some tier of premium charge, what's stopping you reducing your commission rate to compensate?
So imposing a 350k limit destroys that, yet I have made a living on here. Enough to not have to do anything else.
So clearly it hasn't stopped you or anyone else getting money back they already lost!
But I've made it at 3.5%.
So?
If you have to pay a PC, then push your commission down to 3.25%
I don't see what the problem is.
I don't agree with Premium Charges, but your argument lacks substance.
Nope, i agreed with the pc right from the outset. My upswing maybe as a result of statistical fluctuations or it maybe that pc2 has changed the market dynamics. Whatever, I am delighted to say that I may have to pay some soon.
I don't see how it is any incentive for losing customers to leave. How do you figure that?
I don't see how it is any incentive for losing customers to leave. How do you figure that?
Looking at it from another perspective...
I was in business importing stuff and selling it in Australia.
Then they brought in GST (similar to your VAT).
I can't sell it for 10% more, I can't claim GST on imports so I have to sacrifice 10% of my profits.
I can...
a) bitch and moan
b) give up
c) move to another country
d) double my turnover
e) look for other ways to supplement income
f) Be really smart and sell to charities and other organisations that don't pay GST.
g) sell only to overseas countries.
One has to be able to adapt.
So I started doing Betfair seriously, sold to charities and other GST exempt organisations and sold overseas.
Since then, Betfair has taken over, but the point remains the same.
I was in business importing stuff and selling it in Australia.
Then they brought in GST (similar to your VAT).
I can't sell it for 10% more, I can't claim GST on imports so I have to sacrifice 10% of my profits.
I can...
a) bitch and moan
b) give up
c) move to another country
d) double my turnover
e) look for other ways to supplement income
f) Be really smart and sell to charities and other organisations that don't pay GST.
g) sell only to overseas countries.
One has to be able to adapt.
So I started doing Betfair seriously, sold to charities and other GST exempt organisations and sold overseas.
Since then, Betfair has taken over, but the point remains the same.
You still miss the point.
I am not talking about me. 19% fall in active accounts has nothing to do with PC payers leaving. I am explaining why they have left. How it impacts those starting out looking at the upside/downside risk.
I am saying if I was starting out now the risk/reward profile would encourage me to do something else.
I cannot negate the premium charge now - my lifetime profits are too high. Any low margin, high commission strategy (or other such "statements of the bleeding obvious") would take years to have the desired effect - the site isn't liquid enough.
I am not talking about me. 19% fall in active accounts has nothing to do with PC payers leaving. I am explaining why they have left. How it impacts those starting out looking at the upside/downside risk.
I am saying if I was starting out now the risk/reward profile would encourage me to do something else.
I cannot negate the premium charge now - my lifetime profits are too high. Any low margin, high commission strategy (or other such "statements of the bleeding obvious") would take years to have the desired effect - the site isn't liquid enough.
Whatever, I am delighted to say that I may have to pay some soon.
As I suspected. Posters font size should be proportional to their P&L.
I don't see how it is any incentive for losing customers to leave. How do you figure that?
I've already explained. But another way to reply would be "why are they leaving then?"
As I suspected. Posters font size should be proportional to their P&L.
I don't see how it is any incentive for losing customers to leave. How do you figure that?
I've already explained. But another way to reply would be "why are they leaving then?"
You are jumping to conclusions in both cases. The most likely reason for losers to leave is that they don't want to or can't afford to keep losing.
Nope.
If that were the case the stats would have shown them leaving previously.
If that were the case the stats would have shown them leaving previously.
I cannot negate the premium charge now - my lifetime profits are too high.
Then you just haven't cottoned on, and I'm not prepared to explain further because I'll just end up going around in circles.
Any low margin, high commission strategy (or other such "statements of the bleeding obvious") would take years to have the desired effect - the site isn't liquid enough.
Sorry, that's pure rubbish.
Then you just haven't cottoned on, and I'm not prepared to explain further because I'll just end up going around in circles.
Any low margin, high commission strategy (or other such "statements of the bleeding obvious") would take years to have the desired effect - the site isn't liquid enough.
Sorry, that's pure rubbish.
Nah.
Don't buy it.
I reckon the best you could think of would be dutching the correct score markets against match odds.
Won't work fast enough.
Don't buy it.
I reckon the best you could think of would be dutching the correct score markets against match odds.
Won't work fast enough.
It seems obvious and logical to me, to find something that is breakeven after commission and turnover as much money as you can
Hilarious stuff BTO.
Hilarious stuff BTO.
Beat The OverRound: If you are over or close to the £250k mark, after several years on here with a low Commission Generated to Gross Profit ratio, as Weatherman says, it is impractical to negate your Premium Charge. And if you were able to churn enough to negate the charge, what's to stop Betfair from moving the goal posts again anyway?
There is nothing to stop Betfair from moving the goalposts, they have done this many times.
It's how you deal with it.
You adapt where you can or move on.
I don't agree with any of these charges, but my post was about what to do if you want to stay here.
a low Commission Generated to Gross Profit ratio
a key sentence!
Why on earth would you blindly continue on attracting more and more charges when you can continue on negating the charges using a two fold attack.
It is only impractical if you are so blinkered that you can only see doing what you've always done.
The answer is to increase the commission generated to gross profit ratio while retaining the original income stream.
If you think it's not possible, then you just can't get your head around it and it's probably best to look elsewhere.
It's how you deal with it.
You adapt where you can or move on.
I don't agree with any of these charges, but my post was about what to do if you want to stay here.
a low Commission Generated to Gross Profit ratio
a key sentence!
Why on earth would you blindly continue on attracting more and more charges when you can continue on negating the charges using a two fold attack.
It is only impractical if you are so blinkered that you can only see doing what you've always done.
The answer is to increase the commission generated to gross profit ratio while retaining the original income stream.
If you think it's not possible, then you just can't get your head around it and it's probably best to look elsewhere.
There is a certain exchange that has implemented the perfect commission level system, when betfair designed theres they made a fatal error, to make the site look more appealing then they assumed that by offering reduced commission charges the more you turn over that this was good to attract more gamblers but the new site does things the over way, the better you get then the more commission you pay up to 5%, this is quite correct as it gives beginners and recreational players a better deal and the sharks and wise-folk pay more commission at higher rates.
This would of made the perfect launch board for the ethos of increased charges for the best to pay
but by betfair allowing the big players to bet at 2% comms for so long they lost acres in profit and lumped a 20% PC later, also the recent hike seems to be so severe that it can only signify that betfairs problems are deeper than its staffing, directorship and investment problems(flotation).
Perhaps the founders realize now the error of there ways and having gone will at some point
recreate a new site with a different, self financing operation.
This would of made the perfect launch board for the ethos of increased charges for the best to pay
but by betfair allowing the big players to bet at 2% comms for so long they lost acres in profit and lumped a 20% PC later, also the recent hike seems to be so severe that it can only signify that betfairs problems are deeper than its staffing, directorship and investment problems(flotation).
Perhaps the founders realize now the error of there ways and having gone will at some point
recreate a new site with a different, self financing operation.
One thing is for sure, creating any new business idea is very complicated and surely betfair could not see into the future being a pioneer so lets all consider the enormity of the task they have achieved all be it controversially lately.
Nah bff, that's one reason why I'd never go to betduck.
The mistake they made was calculating commission on profit only.
They should implement a flat reduced commission on turnover.
This would address many problems [;)]
The mistake they made was calculating commission on profit only.
They should implement a flat reduced commission on turnover.
This would address many problems [;)]
Hi BTO just letting you know it wasn't betdak I was pointing to , it was another new site[;)]
They don't have greyhounds, in fact only betfair does good fair markets on greyhounds so I have to accept that for me betfair is the only site at the moment i could use.
And why wouldn't you use Betfair when you are a new member and nowhere near to the £250k mark?
If some bright spark knocked a deal up to make a social betting site that could do deals worldwide to show races and events, not all but enough, had advertising on the site to support the model and was levy friendly somehow, it would be mega successful, but it would have to accept winners without contradiction.
Very good thread- I would consider myself a middle of the road betfair user -last year I peaked at 40000 commission points,for the last 6 months 18000 has been my average.
Anyway having spent the last few years clocking up an incredible amount of time on the laptop betting on almost every horserace in Europe and America on the weekends I have reverted to my old strategy of having fewer bets for cash.
The site regularly being out of action on s Saturday afternoon,the Ryanair type customer services approach and the high commission rates have all contributed to my decision to take my business elsewhere.
I didn't realise it for the last few years but there is plenty of punting action away from here.
Anyway having spent the last few years clocking up an incredible amount of time on the laptop betting on almost every horserace in Europe and America on the weekends I have reverted to my old strategy of having fewer bets for cash.
The site regularly being out of action on s Saturday afternoon,the Ryanair type customer services approach and the high commission rates have all contributed to my decision to take my business elsewhere.
I didn't realise it for the last few years but there is plenty of punting action away from here.
I will use betfair as for me its the only one good enough.
Interesting post Eddie Batt, you must be one of the 19% that has moved elsewhere, what for you was the pivotal reason for your departure from the ryanair exchange company.
Well I joined a couple of years ago but have been busy running a security business, been interested in greyhound racing for many years so decided to soon pitch my wares here before there are no tracks left thanks to the bags system and before there is no betfair because of the charging system, and I thought it would be easy.
I never get tired of posting this story 
Betfair takes action against rogue 'bots'
Ban for odds computer programs after punter bonanza
Greg Wood
The Guardian, Thursday 26 September 2002 20.44 BST
Betfair, the internet's largest betting exchange, is expected to ban the use of automatic trading programs - known as bots - on its website, following a system crash that kept the site offline for two hours on Tuesday afternoon.
The crash has highlighted a practice that has been going on for several months, much to the surprise of the vast majority of Betfair's regular clients, with one punter claiming that his computer program has made him hundreds of thousands of pounds.
A bot is a computer program that can access a website and strike or lay bets, just as any human punter can. Unlike a regular punter, though, it does not need to eat, drink or sleep, and can request a web page several times a second.
About a dozen Betfair clients are thought to have been using bots to scan the site for chances to bet overbroke, or otherwise gain a guaranteed edge on other users. They will now be warned to switch off their bots, or be banned from using Betfair's site.
A Betfair spokesman said yesterday that Tuesday's problems were not caused directly by the use of bots on their site. However, the fact that a number of the programs were attempting to access Betfair dozens of times a second, while technicians were struggling to get it online, meant that the site was unavailable for much longer than would otherwise have been the case.
The program responsible is believed to have been written by a Betfair user who regularly posts messages in the site's users' forum under the name "Gary". Although his claims are difficult to verify, he has stated that his bot has won him hundreds of thousands of pounds in recent months. He is also thought to have passed on his program to several other punters in recent weeks, increasing the strain on Betfair's servers.
There are several ways in which a bot can suck the value from a robust and vibrant market such as Betfair. It is possible, for instance, to write a program that scans active markets looking for one that is momentarily "overbroke", allowing it to back every runner to return a small, but guaranteed, profit. The bot places the required bets automatically and instantly, and moves on to look for its next opportunity.
Others can be programmed to notice obvious mistakes - a punter, say, who has tried to offer a horse at 2.0 in Betfair's digital odds system, and offered 2.2 instead. A bot could also be set up to back and lay consistently around a given price. Backing at 2.6 and then laying at 2.4, over and over again, would soon try the patience of most human punters, but a computer program does not get bored.
"The result tends to be that there are lots and lots of very small bets going through, which are a pain for everybody concerned," Mark Davies, Betfair's spokesman, said yesterday. "And when we have a problem like we did on Tuesday, the program just keeps on trying to trade, asking the database questions which it is not in a position to answer. We're getting in touch with the account holders in question, and we would expect to make a statement on Friday morning."
The bots are not merely a technical problem for Betfair. The site's image, as a place where punter meets punter in a battle of judgment and wits, is among its biggest selling points. A perception that its clients might in fact be taking on a bank of computers, or that it is pointless looking for serious value because a bot will always get there first, would be damaging.
One problem for Betfair, though, is that a well-written bot will appear to be just another client logging on to the site. To be certain that no-one is using a bot, it may be necessary to study access and betting patterns over several days, or even weeks.
"Depending on how well written a bot is, and if it doesn't hit the hell out of the server, it may be almost impossible to block it," said Glyn Wintle, chief technical officer of backandlay.com, an exchange which is due to launch in the next few months.
"Over time, you can be pretty sure when someone's using a bot, but if someone's got a well-written program that means they can't lose, they'll probably think it's stupid not to run it.
Betfair takes action against rogue 'bots'
Ban for odds computer programs after punter bonanza
Greg Wood
The Guardian, Thursday 26 September 2002 20.44 BST
Betfair, the internet's largest betting exchange, is expected to ban the use of automatic trading programs - known as bots - on its website, following a system crash that kept the site offline for two hours on Tuesday afternoon.
The crash has highlighted a practice that has been going on for several months, much to the surprise of the vast majority of Betfair's regular clients, with one punter claiming that his computer program has made him hundreds of thousands of pounds.
A bot is a computer program that can access a website and strike or lay bets, just as any human punter can. Unlike a regular punter, though, it does not need to eat, drink or sleep, and can request a web page several times a second.
About a dozen Betfair clients are thought to have been using bots to scan the site for chances to bet overbroke, or otherwise gain a guaranteed edge on other users. They will now be warned to switch off their bots, or be banned from using Betfair's site.
A Betfair spokesman said yesterday that Tuesday's problems were not caused directly by the use of bots on their site. However, the fact that a number of the programs were attempting to access Betfair dozens of times a second, while technicians were struggling to get it online, meant that the site was unavailable for much longer than would otherwise have been the case.
The program responsible is believed to have been written by a Betfair user who regularly posts messages in the site's users' forum under the name "Gary". Although his claims are difficult to verify, he has stated that his bot has won him hundreds of thousands of pounds in recent months. He is also thought to have passed on his program to several other punters in recent weeks, increasing the strain on Betfair's servers.
There are several ways in which a bot can suck the value from a robust and vibrant market such as Betfair. It is possible, for instance, to write a program that scans active markets looking for one that is momentarily "overbroke", allowing it to back every runner to return a small, but guaranteed, profit. The bot places the required bets automatically and instantly, and moves on to look for its next opportunity.
Others can be programmed to notice obvious mistakes - a punter, say, who has tried to offer a horse at 2.0 in Betfair's digital odds system, and offered 2.2 instead. A bot could also be set up to back and lay consistently around a given price. Backing at 2.6 and then laying at 2.4, over and over again, would soon try the patience of most human punters, but a computer program does not get bored.
"The result tends to be that there are lots and lots of very small bets going through, which are a pain for everybody concerned," Mark Davies, Betfair's spokesman, said yesterday. "And when we have a problem like we did on Tuesday, the program just keeps on trying to trade, asking the database questions which it is not in a position to answer. We're getting in touch with the account holders in question, and we would expect to make a statement on Friday morning."
The bots are not merely a technical problem for Betfair. The site's image, as a place where punter meets punter in a battle of judgment and wits, is among its biggest selling points. A perception that its clients might in fact be taking on a bank of computers, or that it is pointless looking for serious value because a bot will always get there first, would be damaging.
One problem for Betfair, though, is that a well-written bot will appear to be just another client logging on to the site. To be certain that no-one is using a bot, it may be necessary to study access and betting patterns over several days, or even weeks.
"Depending on how well written a bot is, and if it doesn't hit the hell out of the server, it may be almost impossible to block it," said Glyn Wintle, chief technical officer of backandlay.com, an exchange which is due to launch in the next few months.
"Over time, you can be pretty sure when someone's using a bot, but if someone's got a well-written program that means they can't lose, they'll probably think it's stupid not to run it.
Pivotal reasons-as a punter I am marginally profitable -I have been restricted by a few bookmakers-great for the ego but I realise I wlll never make a living from gambling.Look at oddschecket on Saturday morning and see the value available-it's absolutely incredible.
I also played late night American racing for fairly decent money up to a few months ago but turnover has fallen dramatically.
I also played late night American racing for fairly decent money up to a few months ago but turnover has fallen dramatically.
isnt the betting world just great, they advertise there great businesses, come and win with us, best odds available, winners welcome, mr x wins half a million in ladbikes, etc etc.
But the cold reality that never gets mentioned or lurks in terms and conditions of some sites is
that they don't want you to win, they want all your money one ways or another
But the cold reality that never gets mentioned or lurks in terms and conditions of some sites is
that they don't want you to win, they want all your money one ways or another
As long as each company can post multi-million profits, punters wanting the same are targeted, overcharged, closed down, banned, robbed etc etc etc
You adapt where you can or move on.
Why on earth would you blindly continue on attracting more and more charges when you can continue on negating the charges using a two fold attack.
It is only impractical if you are so blinkered that you can only see doing what you've always done.
The answer is to increase the commission generated to gross profit ratio while retaining the original income stream.
If you think it's not possible, then you just can't get your head around it and it's probably best to look elsewhere.
BTO, have you ever thought of working in the city because it's full of clueless t1ts who talk a good game. If it was really as easy as "It seems obvious and logical to me, to find something that is breakeven after commission and turnover as much money as you can" why do betfair bother charging anyone the pc? Why don't they just do all these bets themselves and save themselves the grief of the pc? Anyway, why suggest to people they find something that breaks even after commission, why not suggest they find something that shows a profit after commission? I mean FFS, you'd think it was a case of chap on any door in Britain and there stands a man with a betfair edge that breaks even after commission.
Why on earth would you blindly continue on attracting more and more charges when you can continue on negating the charges using a two fold attack.
It is only impractical if you are so blinkered that you can only see doing what you've always done.
The answer is to increase the commission generated to gross profit ratio while retaining the original income stream.
If you think it's not possible, then you just can't get your head around it and it's probably best to look elsewhere.
BTO, have you ever thought of working in the city because it's full of clueless t1ts who talk a good game. If it was really as easy as "It seems obvious and logical to me, to find something that is breakeven after commission and turnover as much money as you can" why do betfair bother charging anyone the pc? Why don't they just do all these bets themselves and save themselves the grief of the pc? Anyway, why suggest to people they find something that breaks even after commission, why not suggest they find something that shows a profit after commission? I mean FFS, you'd think it was a case of chap on any door in Britain and there stands a man with a betfair edge that breaks even after commission.
Are you seriously saying you have no idea how to find anything breakeven????
Jimminy crickets!!!
Jimminy crickets!!!
Unfortunately at some point, you run out of hours in the day.
Spending even more time hunting around for breakeven stuff to save on PC is not the most efficient use of that time - at least for me.
Spending even more time hunting around for breakeven stuff to save on PC is not the most efficient use of that time - at least for me.
BTO, even if you are able to find something breakeven stuff that helps you avoid PC doesn't mean that others could be saved by it.
It could be just a drop in the ocean to them and not worth bothering doing.
It could be just a drop in the ocean to them and not worth bothering doing.
Rather than mitigating pc charges, I find that my time is better spent making money elsewhere.
On principle anyway, why would I work harder to make bf even more money? They've hardly been fair with me.
On principle anyway, why would I work harder to make bf even more money? They've hardly been fair with me.
Are you seriously saying you have no idea how to find anything breakeven????
No, but it's got nothing to do with my point which is more about your smug, patronising attitude. If someone else had posted the p1sh you did you'd probably have replied "but surely if you can find an edge that clears commission you could adapt and refine it to be net profitable".
Lori & ETE are correct. Any churning strategies will be more or less restricted to automated players. Betfair is no place for anyone who gambles, bets and wins big and isn't automated.
No, but it's got nothing to do with my point which is more about your smug, patronising attitude. If someone else had posted the p1sh you did you'd probably have replied "but surely if you can find an edge that clears commission you could adapt and refine it to be net profitable".
Lori & ETE are correct. Any churning strategies will be more or less restricted to automated players. Betfair is no place for anyone who gambles, bets and wins big and isn't automated.
Generating more turnover on breakeven bets to cut Premium Charge is IMO bad move.
Let's say you make around 3000 euros per day trading and 21K per week. In hope cutting costs down you start betting 10K per day breakeven bets generating around 200 euros on commission and 1400 euros per week. You would still end up paying over 19K (if we assume your own trading don't generate significant amount on commission).
That would make 3.65M per year on bets and only around 72K on commission, not very good ratio imo. If you could REALLY find breakeven bets you should obviously go for it, but risk those bets ending being even slightly against you will obviously cause very bad results. Overstaking on your "own value bets" which you have made your money on will obviously lead also to poorhouse.
I'm happy to be proven wrong.
Let's say you make around 3000 euros per day trading and 21K per week. In hope cutting costs down you start betting 10K per day breakeven bets generating around 200 euros on commission and 1400 euros per week. You would still end up paying over 19K (if we assume your own trading don't generate significant amount on commission).
That would make 3.65M per year on bets and only around 72K on commission, not very good ratio imo. If you could REALLY find breakeven bets you should obviously go for it, but risk those bets ending being even slightly against you will obviously cause very bad results. Overstaking on your "own value bets" which you have made your money on will obviously lead also to poorhouse.
I'm happy to be proven wrong.
But that's what you said, so it follows that you can't.
You post like it's something that's easier said than done, so obviously it's all too hard.
So you resort to insults and 12yo lol's to make it appear less embarrasing.
Any churning strategies will be more or less restricted to automated players.
Why?
So to sum it all up, people in general are prepared to whine about Premium Charges, yet are unwilling to leave, learn anything, avail themselves of the products supplied by Betfair, or put in any kind of effort.
So I'll get some smarty reply, why should he?
Well, I can't see how complaining and doing nothing helps anyone at all.
I give up, I've tried to help and reveal some pretty good information, but it appears lost on all but a couple of posters.
One thing I do know, if you can't adapt to change, then the end is nigh.
Best of luck!
You post like it's something that's easier said than done, so obviously it's all too hard.
So you resort to insults and 12yo lol's to make it appear less embarrasing.
Any churning strategies will be more or less restricted to automated players.
Why?
So to sum it all up, people in general are prepared to whine about Premium Charges, yet are unwilling to leave, learn anything, avail themselves of the products supplied by Betfair, or put in any kind of effort.
So I'll get some smarty reply, why should he?
Well, I can't see how complaining and doing nothing helps anyone at all.
I give up, I've tried to help and reveal some pretty good information, but it appears lost on all but a couple of posters.
One thing I do know, if you can't adapt to change, then the end is nigh.
Best of luck!
Best of luck to you and thanks for your "help" and "revelations". Sorry I'm too thick to absorb it all.
NO....The biggest bot user on Betfair by far is Betfair themselves!!
BTO, apologies for having come on so strong earlier. We do have "form" but there was no need for me to be so heavy handed over what I consider a few ill thought remarks on your part.
people in general are prepared to whine about Premium Charges, yet are unwilling to leave, learn anything, avail themselves of the products supplied by Betfair, or put in any kind of effort
no.
most whine (which is bad news for betfair's reputation).
some whine and fiddle a bit to alter their exposure to pc (but given the nature of the pc3 net many are too late for worthwhile mitigation).
some leave.
some plan to leave.
some stay but reduce their effort or use of betfair relative to their use of other exchanges/bookies (implying beards and all that palaver).
some apparently endeavour to be appear to be someone else (but bf are supposedly hot on that one).
meanwhile everyone has learned something about betfair.
the big unknown is whether betfair have killed the goose which layed the golden eggs.
the dynamics have certainly changed a fair bit since some big players have disappeared from particular markets.
no.
most whine (which is bad news for betfair's reputation).
some whine and fiddle a bit to alter their exposure to pc (but given the nature of the pc3 net many are too late for worthwhile mitigation).
some leave.
some plan to leave.
some stay but reduce their effort or use of betfair relative to their use of other exchanges/bookies (implying beards and all that palaver).
some apparently endeavour to be appear to be someone else (but bf are supposedly hot on that one).
meanwhile everyone has learned something about betfair.
the big unknown is whether betfair have killed the goose which layed the golden eggs.
the dynamics have certainly changed a fair bit since some big players have disappeared from particular markets.
Reducing the effects of pc3 by churning would require knowledge of a sport outwith the current markets you bet in. It would be far easier to combat pc3 by increasing the risk in your current markets by providing less liquidity.
would require knowledge of a sport outwith the current markets you bet in
my knowledge of the sports i already bet on isn't an issue. the particular style of market which works well for me is not the type which would be good for churning so that in itself isn't a problem but i'm never been for churning at 22.5% (have played a few markets off against each other when the margin has been big enough that i would have done so anyway (rare at my comm rate) and when bf offered a few 0% comm markets). i'm not going to start at 62.5% or whatever it is.
slowing down towards the £250k barrier (i've already revamped my schedule: no more late nights) and then quitting betting when i reach it (if betfair still holds the aces) is the plan. of course they'll probably bugger things up by moving the barrier with a coupl eof weeks of notice but then i'd find i had more leisure time on my hands for a while....
my knowledge of the sports i already bet on isn't an issue. the particular style of market which works well for me is not the type which would be good for churning so that in itself isn't a problem but i'm never been for churning at 22.5% (have played a few markets off against each other when the margin has been big enough that i would have done so anyway (rare at my comm rate) and when bf offered a few 0% comm markets). i'm not going to start at 62.5% or whatever it is.
slowing down towards the £250k barrier (i've already revamped my schedule: no more late nights) and then quitting betting when i reach it (if betfair still holds the aces) is the plan. of course they'll probably bugger things up by moving the barrier with a coupl eof weeks of notice but then i'd find i had more leisure time on my hands for a while....
Charlatan, I was talking more from a gambler's viewpoint. Reducing risk on current sport(s) probably isn't an option for most traders.
Feck,I am with you.It is only when caught up in pc3 that the difficulty in trying to reduce the charges can be appreciated.All those,including BTO,who say how easy it is to reduce it will find out if they are actually directly affected.
Why churn when you can earn, perhaps your to self-consoled with your own edge/profit margin, betfair have altered theres and its not rocket science if your as good as you lot make out to change your own profit margins, be positive.
Remember the first law of the jungle, becoming a specialist in just one thing can leave you in a very vulnerable position, there are many different areas of betting you could master on here far beyond the effect of a 60% deficit in profits, stop being defeatist and adapt or you may become extinct.
Bff, how can you possibly give us PC payers advice when you've only been here five minutes and don't pay the PC?
Does a horse refuse to race because of the class of the race, does a greyhound stay in his kennel and howl because hes in the 4 box, should a pc payer give up and fold his affairs just because he has to pay for the service that delivers the massive profit he makes?
I don't make massive profits and I haven't given up.
god/evolution has given you a great gift which will help you overcome most obstacles in your life, an advanced brain so instead of howling on here, go and increase your knowledge and skills and stay positive.
lets get something straight, you dont have to win massive amounts to pay the PC. for someone who has been here 10 years, they only need to win £600 per year to be caught in the net.
Is bff Fine As Frog Hair? He seemed to appear not long after FAFH disappeared.
I am much finer than frog hair and as course as badger hair when I am drunk, thanks for the complement.
It is only when caught up in pc3 that the difficulty in trying to reduce the charges can be appreciated.
And that's the problem, most people are angry and panic when it's too late.
Fail to prepare, prepare to fail.
One has to be prepared to take action to increase commission ratio (churn if you will) BEFORE the charge.
I do have sympathy for those who had no warning or option, but I'd be looking elsewhere then.
And that's the problem, most people are angry and panic when it's too late.
Fail to prepare, prepare to fail.
One has to be prepared to take action to increase commission ratio (churn if you will) BEFORE the charge.
I do have sympathy for those who had no warning or option, but I'd be looking elsewhere then.
Still missing the point, huh?
Perhaps a separate thread would be in order. One where you can carry on posting the same thing again and again, and not paying attention to what is actually being said. The "BTO Monologue thread" we can call it.
I really think that those incapable of having more than one thought should be wary of trying to make a living on here. Intellectually you appear considerably outmatched.
Perhaps a separate thread would be in order. One where you can carry on posting the same thing again and again, and not paying attention to what is actually being said. The "BTO Monologue thread" we can call it.
I really think that those incapable of having more than one thought should be wary of trying to make a living on here. Intellectually you appear considerably outmatched.
Should current pc payers be preparing themselves for an 80% charge? or a 70% charge or a reduced 30% charge with a £500 per month subscription?
How are we (or were we) supposed to prepare for something we can't anticipate?
How are we (or were we) supposed to prepare for something we can't anticipate?
I guess you diversify by being able to earn by doing something other than betting--in Ed Miliband's terms, by moving away from financial engineering towards real engineering.
It is within bf t&c s to act as a bookie and to impose whatever level of charges on anyone they like.
It is within bf t&c s to act as a bookie and to impose whatever level of charges on anyone they like.
It is the cranking of the premium charge over time that is the most worrying, it not only alarms all customers to the fear of "betfair not affording competition from its own winners" but also it says to investors and there own staff that this flavor of sporting exchange is doomed long term, on those grounds all concerned must hope the charges are not raised again.
What if a new exchange appeared in the mean time, one with a system that looked better and more customer friendly than both current runners, is this possible? well it cost 1 million to set betfair up
and now the technology is getting cheaper all the time, so its well within the reach of a lot of
adverture capitalists and perhaps betdak has sold a viable competitor short with its laid back and bookmaker trying to mae it as an exchange approach, only time will tell but betfair is exposing itself to any future competition by spoiling its "big lead card".
and now the technology is getting cheaper all the time, so its well within the reach of a lot of
adverture capitalists and perhaps betdak has sold a viable competitor short with its laid back and bookmaker trying to mae it as an exchange approach, only time will tell but betfair is exposing itself to any future competition by spoiling its "big lead card".
I've given up weatherman.
The apparent monologue is wasted here.
The apparent monologue is wasted here.
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