have bots destroyed betfair?

Zipper, in horse racing, like any major market just before the off, topping bots are barely an issue as weight of money smothers them. Before a tv premier league game it's not a topping bot that's moving 50k lumps around. The bigger a market gets, the less of a factor they are.

Zipper, not everyone bets on markets where SP is available.

I have recently started botting up. Simply because if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
Personally, bots have contributed to myself not bothering much with the site manually due to their ubiquity, although I doubt I am much of a loss. However, if enough like minded folk come to that conclusion, it may well become a problem.

Thank gawd for the transaction charge, or the whole screen would be a mess of £2 bot bets screaming towards 100%.

zipper, to say that we should all just place our bets at s.p. to avoid bots, i'm sorry but that misses the point. the whole original idea of betfair was that it's a betting exchange where people were allowed to be creative, to try and out think their fellow punters. to try and back and lay and various different prices, not just at one that is dictated by bots or by the s.p.

that, and the idea that you could get decent prices, is principally what had separated it from traditional bookmakers. but of course the original spirit of betfair has been completely lost
and now they are more interested in their bottom line. essentially they are just another big bookmaker.

just checking, while you may well be right that most people who use betfair don't even know what a bot is, i'm sure even the ones who are wholly lacking in intelligence, are slightly confused when they put a bet up and find that tiny 2 quid bet almost instantly gets undercut.

Also I myself am slightly confused by the concept that it's only traders and middlemen that provide the liquidity for markets. I'm fairly sure that this subject has been covered before, and that the idea that without the middlemen, the position players would just be staring across a large chasm in the prices without ever meeting in the middle has been proven to be wholly false.

the whole original idea of betfair was that it's a betting exchange where people were allowed to be creative, to try and out think their fellow punters

Exactly, but now you've been out-thunk you're annoyed. [;)]

not annoyed cats, just sad.

Just like I'll be sad when the next wave of technology or change comes along and blows the catbots out of the water.

I doubt it will be a change of technology that makes your endeavours pointless.

be interesting to see what happens when the new transaction charges are introduced, apparently to pay for the new Betfair technology.

What new transaction charges? [:o]

Also I myself am slightly confused by the concept that it's only traders and middlemen that provide the liquidity for markets. I'm fairly sure that this subject has been covered before, and that the idea that without the middlemen, the position players would just be staring across a large chasm in the prices without ever meeting in the middle has been proven to be wholly false.

Escapee posted yesterday that the 4:30 @ chester had 160k matched when the bots were off the site, but would have expected 500k if they were on.

How do horse racing followers explain that?

I think Betfair should build simple 'bot-functionality' into the site. Allow users to set up rule based trades that move within a range.

That would level the playing field a little, but of course the most savvy bot users would still have a massive advantage.

cat dont worry.  i am only guessing what might happen next year

Damn you, that's the second change of underwear in as many weeks. [;)]

inner city sumo
I doubt it will be a change of technology that makes your endeavours pointless.

The existing api has been in place since 2004 which is a long time in the it world.  Must be due a revamp at some point and probably an upgrade to push technology.

When that happens, I'm out of here.

Maybe, but I think their financial strategy may get you first. How much confidence can anyone have that PC2 is the end of charges on the site, we're all in the dark and constantly primed for the worst case scenario.

I think Betfair should build simple 'bot-functionality' into the site. Allow users to set up rule based trades that move within a range.

That would level the playing field a little, but of course the most savvy bot users would still have a massive advantage.

Paid for by who? plenty of API software around and if it doesnt suit peoples needs, pay for someone to custom make something.

Whats the massive advantages of a bot as you see them?

Escapee posted yesterday that the 4:30 @ chester had 160k matched when the bots were off the site, but would have expected 500k if they were on.

How do horse racing followers explain that?

Easy, there was a loss of functionality and therefore a loss of confidence in placing a bet.

I think Betfair should build simple 'bot-functionality' into the site. Allow users to set up rule based trades that move within a range.
They have done, and even given you a FREE API and FREE spreadsheet, but some people are more comfortable whinging than actually taking advantage of the opportunities offered.

Easy, there was a loss of functionality and therefore a loss of confidence in placing a bet.

Loss of functionality with the website or API?

The API, but it was all over the forums and the site that there was "a problem".

Judging by precedence, most regulars know that the domino effect can follow, so keep out.

if "whingeing" is standing up for the silent majority who don't seem to have much of a voice
on a forum which is dominated by pc payers and bot users, then i'm happy to "whinge" forever.

I don't even know what a spreadsheet is.

what makes you think bot whingers are the majority?

inner city sumo, no pc like charge will stop me. While I'm still making a profit I'll keep at it.

Even if it was a profit of only say ten grand a year?

mythical prince     25 Sep 11 21:38 
if "whingeing" is standing up for the silent majority who don't seem to have much of a voice
on a forum which is dominated by pc payers and bot users, then i'm happy to "whinge" forever.

I don't even know what a spreadsheet is.

At last! I thought I was the only person in the world who could not fathom what a spreadsheet is.

I've googled "What is a spreadsheet?", I've read the Wikipedia article, and I'm still baffled as to how you start one, never mind what you do with it.

It's so bloody annoying. I got an A level in maths in 1977, an S level in 1978, I can calculate a cube root manually, but this machine I'm typing on is a foreign country to me. I have no idea how to make it add up 2 plus 2.

catflmasppo The existing api has been in place since 2004 which is a long time in the it world.  Must be due a revamp at some point and probably an upgrade to push technology.

When that happens, I'm out of here.

Why?

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I think Betfair should build simple 'bot-functionality' into the site. Allow users to set up rule based trades that move within a range.

That would level the playing field a little, but of course the most savvy bot users would still have a massive advantage.

Paid for by who? plenty of API software around and if it doesnt suit peoples needs, pay for someone to custom make something.

Whats the massive advantages of a bot as you see them?


some advantages of bots at a very basic level:

drip feeding into markets, getting and managing queue position 24/7.

You ask 'paid for by who', well I think that site improvements pay for themselves.

The massive advantage I refer to is that a bot can potentially do things that aren't humanly posssible, like betting in volume and doing a large amount of transactions simultaneously and around the clock.

I'm talking about basic stuff here Brendan, the little improvements like adding keep bet functionality, more of that kind of stuff would be good, and it can easily be done without making the interface too complicated.

Zipper, in horse racing, like any major market just before the off, topping bots are barely an issue as weight of money smothers them. Before a tv premier league game it's not a topping bot that's moving 50k lumps around. The bigger a market gets, the less of a factor they are.

................

exactly..topping bots have decimated quite a few minor markets and PC3 has finished em off completely.  Last season I made an effort to look at the "substitute" market.  It was a pretty dead market but it was one of the few soccer markets that wasnt derivative bot based, (and therefore now no bookie odds at all) so I thought I'd give it a go.  Turnover was by no means great, but I managed to get high 3 figures matched on several occasions and I think I bought interest to the market.  I was probably the only person willing to do the work to be able to confidently price many games up to a reasonable percentage and a reasonable stake in the market.  I stopped this season because I was fed up of micro parasite £1.99 to £5 bettors and PC3.  Take my bets out and nothing is offered bar ridiculous odds and it looks like turnover is 90% down in them from my brief look at it this season. 

It all depends on what markets you bet in.  Something like the correct score market or asian hcap is totally reliant on derivate based bots in running, number crunching prices based on match odds and over/unders prices I imagine.  Its the only way you can price such markets up.

inner city sumo
Even if it was a profit of only say ten grand a year?

To be honest, yes.  My overheads are very small and in fact I would have to give it a good few losing months before being confident that it was all over and I should quit.

Investor if they bet at the wrong price 24/7 thats not an advantage its a handicap

Fairplay to you cat. I wouldn't spend 40 hrs a week on here for £10k a year. The richer you get the more you need to make on here to make it worthwhile for me.

Yeah, I'm referring to automation of profitable strategies.

If two guys are equally good at pricing up markets, but one can code (or pay/work with a coder) to bot it, that is a massive advantage. As they are equaly good at pricing up, the botter might even be able to cut the other guy out altogether with speed and technology.

Fred!
catflmasppo The existing api has been in place since 2004 which is a long time in the it world.  Must be due a revamp at some point and probably an upgrade to push technology.

When that happens, I'm out of here.

Why?

I've decided not to migrate it for a variety of reasons.

I agree, inner city.  Luckily it takes a lot less than 40 hours a week and if it was only earning 10k I would be a lot less conscientious than I am now!!

Fair enough cat, just seemed an odd statement to me when surely it would just be a couple of weeks work at the most to rewrite your bots to use a new interface so that they can continue netting an effort free £xK per year.

I'd quite like a change to the API. No idea how I'd deal with push technology but that's what makes it interesting!

If two guys are equally good at pricing up markets, but one can code (or pay/work with a coder) to bot it, that is a massive advantage. As they are equaly good at pricing up, the botter might even be able to cut the other guy out altogether with speed and technology.

Everyone can pay/work with a coder especially if they have profitable existing strategy Its a massive advantage but none of the complainers do it, doesnt stack up to me.

Like complaining of fast pics but fast pics are available if you want them free (if you learn API yourself) or for fee (if your even slightly interested), complainers chose not to get them and then complain they are at massive disadvantage?

Part of my reasoning Fred! is that I reckon push technology will open the door to a whole raft of new strategies and hence change the market dynamics completely. Not only that but the object model will be completely different making a straight conversion practically imposible. I'm sure it would be better for me to discard what I have and start again from scratch.  If I could be ar5ed...

I asked about push technology a few months ago in the "Ask ****", sorry "DetBaq" part of their forum. The post has now been deleted, I am not to sure about migrating over there as of yet, although it has been said that in some ways the purple API could be superior in some aspects, with a few minor upgrades.

****

detbaq = ****

Bots have demonstrated on both sides of the exchange, bettor and service provider that technology itself can create something special, I speculate that as possible Information technology evolves into
reality it may be possible for instant accounts to connect globally without the need for a service provider holding, targeting or mis-managing funds, that we could then all enjoy a much more free and fair betting experience , this sort of concept requires only 2 major improvements to occur

1....ultra-fast transactions between accounts securely.

2....laundering proof security of account transactions.

interestingly both these conditions are sought after by business that live on the net globally so what we  see now on line may be something completely different in a decade or so.

I tend to agree with you on points 1 & 2 bf, it is the next level. Just need someone bold enough to take the helm [Director wise].

sporting exchanges are her to stay, current models have both been painfully slow to evolve there liquidity but now that the sporting exchange model has been rubber stamped and is growing slowly in appeal globally we will see quicker acceptance by customers, investors and gambling company gurus
of these business model types, makes you wonder what will emerge next as all Internet dot com
successes are now replicated many times over globally.

push technology? whats that?

brendan, how does api. get you fast pics?

come to think of it, what is api?

i'm getting more and more confused

mythical prince

push technology? whats that?

http://tinyurl.com/3egygba

Using the current api your program has to ask for information.  So if you write a bot it may ask to look at the prices available for a particular market and decide to place a bet.  Then after a while it will look again to see if anything has changed to see if it wants to change the bet.  With push technology betfair will notify the bots whenever something of interest changes.

It's the same as the difference between logging into hotmail and having a blackberry.

It was analogy

I dont understand the form in racing all those numbers,squiggles and stuff, I dont complain that people who do understand have massive advantage, when it is freely available to learn

Seems to me that complainers who dont understand what the API/bots are, are imagining it as some great bogey man to hang all their woes on. Wont even google the words they dont understand

you can see how you would come over as rather luddite at best

For me the greatest over-sight by betfair, be it perceived or factual is that they create a platform that says come and win its so easy trading or speculating with our over-rounds and liquidity and then to say that now there are people actually winning big? what 0.01 percent? wow how damaging, perhaps they should of said in the first place as a disclaimer ;

Come and win on our platform but please only bet small and lets not have say more than 0.001 of all customers performing this magical feat, whoopy doop.

Mind you we should all of remembered that most famous of quotes when listening to there
halcyon days spin

If something seems to good to be true, then it probably is.

How foolish of us all

Don't be a Sinner, be a Winner...

It's all designed to challenge you, it's not easy...

Those that fail to prepare are preparing to fail...

No such thing as a free lunch...

brendan, of course there are barriers to entry related to costs, available expertise, and the difficulty of having to share your strategies with IT guys you are working with.

I've got some custom built software myself, (as well as collaborating on bots) but for the first 2 years on here I only used the website with no tools whatsoever. I think many customers could benefit from more site functionality without having to cobble stuff together themselves or pay to get it done.

Botting should be for sophisticated users, and straightforward automation and qpos management should be available as standard.

Hang on I have just thought about something that is rather positive for betfair, now it seems
that there is role reversal for bettors thanks to the betfair current exchange model

Bookmakers make a living out of losers and stopping winners form winning

Betfair makes a living from winners and keeping them winning.

Holly ****, is that really so bad, seems that we may all be guitly of wishing for something that we
now have, hmmm I need to have a deep think.

Programming a bot is the easy part. Knowing what to program is the hard part.

Perhaps we are all guilty on lately of being too negative and underestimating ourselves and betfairs overall strategy, my logic circuits are at war[smiley:crazy]

If someone loses betfair win nothing from them, they charge the winner, but if the winners win alot
and dont allow anyone else to win it back then betfair makes smaller amounts and has too foot the bill in terms of attracting the customer in the first place and offering him a service.

My problem is I am attracted to logical frameworks, and I can see things from both sides of the argument and clearly we all get caught up in the debate, perhaps to the point of wasting time and burning neurons up in the process.

Perhaps when we perceive betfair now through its charging policies we are experiencing something
Freudian?

In that we now are looking in a mirror and trying to cultivate our own greed or need we see
betfairs instead and can we live with ourselves firstly if we cant abide a business that clearly thinks the same way as us.

Just a point of technophobia.

I understood the explanation of push technology, however

It's the same as the difference between logging into hotmail and having a blackberry.

was completely meaningless to me as I have no idea how a blackberry works other than to take phone calls! (I have a £10 pay as you go Vodaphone which has the sole purpose of being in my golf bag in case my other half urgently needs me)

No further explanation needed, I just thought I'd point out what you're dealing with here!

I doubt it will be a change of technology that makes your endeavours pointless.

I agree sumo. I think it will be vast simplification of exchange betting that will render most "edges" redundant.



Escapee posted yesterday that the 4:30 @ chester had 160k matched when the bots were off the site, but would have expected 500k if they were on.

How do horse racing followers explain that?

What's to explain? The big liquidity providers (and I'm not talking traders) employ bots.

Lol, sorry Lori.  I'll aim a bit lower next time.

The big liquidity providers (and I'm not talking traders) employ bots.

How do you know this? You can identify where money comes from, how it is placed via API or website and now you know the algorithms of the bots are not trading algorithms, ffs [smiley:crazy]

getting abit stupid this thread

I was told this by someone close to betfair. Anyway you were the one making implications about who was supplying it all. Why is it any less stupid for you to make those assumptions?

Sadly no you werent, because betfair wouldnt know either.

Didnt make any implications about anything. Escappee said volumes were down when bots were off the site, was looking for explaination.

I agree with Feck that the big liquidity providers employ bots.  While I cant say for 100% definite that this is the case I'd have been willing to take 1.01 that this is the case.  Logically and practically I cant see why that wouldn't be the case, my evidence from betting on here is that is the case and like Feck I've spoken to people who co-oberate that that is the case.

Yes Betfair do know, they track everything.
They know if a bet comes through the site or the API.
They can run reports very quickly via a query which tells them the breakdown.
Part of this is a requirement by the authorities for tracking purposes.

In fact when I had a dispute, they told me which bets were placed via the site and which via the API.

Did they tell your algorithms and if you were a trader?

to stoopid this, im oot

So assume that they don't know then.
How do they calculate API transaction charges?

Some bloke in Malta takes a wild stab?

Sadly no you werent, because betfair wouldnt know either.

Now you know what I was and wasn't told and that (if I was) the guy was lying.


Didnt make any implications about anything. Escappee said volumes were down when bots were off the site, was looking for explaination.

You pasted Escapee's volume figures in response to a post that stated that liquidity would still be there without traders.

last post. Of course they know your trades [smiley:crazy]

The big liquidity providers (and I'm not talking traders) employ bots.

Betfair wouldnt be interested (or could tell) in if your a traders or not, only feck is interested in this

They do damage the site in some ways which is why we are having discussions about it and I don't like them because of their parasitic nature, but gambling is very a parasitic business, and I'm being a touch hypocritical because a lot of my bets are parasitic in some form.  I'd rather they weren't but it's just an inevitably of today' betting system.  Overall they are hugely important and fundamental, unfortunately.

Betfair wouldnt be interested (or could tell) in if your a traders or not

Of course they'd be interested and could make a good guess using nothing more than the figures used in pc calculations.

Then how come my Account Manager knows how much I turned over, whether I'm a trader or a backer or a layer, know whether I won or lost, how much commission I paid and will notify me if I approach a Premium Charge threshold.

They know a lot more than you give them credit for, it's their job to know and report.

If it was not for Bots and traders  very few markets would exceed 400k ,  with Bots and traders  1 million markets are common place  so suck that and learn ...zip

I suppose we could go back and forth with this argument about the positive and negative side of bots forever. The main issue though surely is whether betfair will do anything about it.

In fairness, they probably couldn't do much more to get rid of bot users than introducing a 60 percent tax, bar banning them altogether. Although as has been pointed out, this was hardly their intention anyway, more just to get some more money in their coffers.

When I get accused of whingeing and whining, it makes me laugh because this forum is overwhelmed with pc payers complaining along the lines of "oh how terrible it is that i'm only making 200k a year now, it used to be 350k, i'll have to give up that second holiday home in spain, and p.s. i'm off to Betquack"

Clearly this mass exodus to Betquack has never materialised, nor do I think it ever will, unless everyone decides to move over at the same time there will never be the liquidity to threaten betfair who will remain a monopoly within the industry. If anything I think Betquack will go under rather than get stronger.

When you are making large sums a year, even if somebody taxes you on those sums (and lets face, most of the working population gets taxed one way or another) you are left with a choice. Either quit what you are doing, and do something else or carry on. Clearly most are choosing the latter option, as the alternative of having an actual job is so unpalatable.

Until Betfair loses its monopoly status it will continue to do as it pleases. Clearly they quite cleverly calculated when they introduced premium charges in the first place, that they could either afford to lose those customers and or they wouldn't leave in any case.

I realise i'm swimming against the tide here by appearing to be against bots on a technological site which is based on the internet. I just wonder though where this is all heading. I have a friend who works in the city, and he says your average joe in the street might as well not bother to play the stockmarket, given you are up against companies and people with complicated algorithims and inside information.

clearly now long-term betfair winners can now be divided into the following categories:

1. bot users
2. those with inside information
3. courtside players/fast pic boys

everyone else has very little hope of winning on here long-term, which for me is a shame.

mythical prince your 1..2 ..3 is all wrong try this .
1 Inside information
2 Courtside /fast pics
3 Bots .

re: The £168k that would have been about £500k on the 16:30 at Haydock (not chester, my mistake ) if the API had been working.

I think people have wrongly jumped to the conclusion that this turnover would have been wholey atributed to "bots".

The "api" is used by all third party software such as the Geek's Toy, Bet Angel, etc etc.

So alot of the missing turnover due to the API failure would have come from users of these software products who were unable to place bets.

In fairness, they probably couldn't do much more to get rid of bot users than introducing a 60 percent tax, bar banning them altogether.

They could starve them of the information they require.

zipper I should have added "in no particular order"

1. bot users
2. those with inside information
3. courtside players/fast pic boys

everyone else has very little hope of winning on here long-term, which for me is a shame.

I'd dispute that.

I'm none of those three and do okay. Any one of those things would elevate me from "okay" to "pretty bloomin good" but I don't think they're essential.

mythical prince  thats ok with me
bit of fun  take inside info  my number 1
inside info  dont matter what the fast pic boys thing they see
inside info  the dreaded Bots  they can bet  or lay all they like
inside info will beat em BOTH out of sight .i rest my case mylord

Bto, data and transaction costs are not limited to Api usage. In fact they are higher for non Api in order to deter screen scraping.

Of course, but they are able to differentiate between the two.

just to add to this topic, a mate of mine is about to lose his six figure job in the city as according to him a computer program can do his job better (he's a market maker.)

I was speaking with a friend about this the other evening. The danger I see is that the entire world economy relies to a certain extent on stocks and shares being correctly priced.

Or on the collective belief they are so.

The salient point to me is that topping bots deter market makers from framing the market. If you want to get paid for price-finding nowadays, when you see a rick in the RP tissue, you pray the exchange market is quiet and get on in the shop.

Is this an issue for bf? Yes, in that you haven't placed your bet with them. No, in that you have used them as a hedging facility and are yourself paying more in comm. and in the sense that you are not offering a bad price to their recreational player.

For a real Luddite question, wd it be possible to discourage bot use by not turning the API on markets until say 10% of the money likely to be matched ultimately pre-race has been matched?

This wd mean price-finders up to 100k matched on good races get paid off w/out having to spread their custom.

Referring to the OP. I've worked for BF and a now defunct exchange Tradesports in the past and the main layers on Tradesports were so ****ed off with the bots they told management that either they stop their use or they'll stop providing liquidity. Tradesports didn't heed their warnings and for that and a few other reasons they went down the pan.

Maybe their should be a minimum 200 quid liability for any layer order. Be a good thing IMO.

Imo they wouldn't even need to rethink the queue if they hid the market movement and queue information.

The IR bots placing bets on 'oversold' positions based on momentum are not what most people are complaining about. To me, the prob. lies much more w/ bots taking markets to an equilibrium price w/out bets having been struck.

The only situation (barring spending the day drip-feeding or building your own bot) is to allow the market to develop at the wrong price.

interesting racing guru.. do you think that the people who build markets on here, who aren't using bots, are of the same opinion but now that betfair is a monopoly can't really do anything about it?

I think the main problem is the strangehold betfair have on the market. I told a friend of mine the other day, who runs a successful business, that betfair were charging 60 percent tax on winners. he couldn't believe it and didn't understand why people continued to bet.

I suppose though, that if you have a program that can just work all day placing your bets for you while you sit back and watch the winnings accrue, you'll be willing to put up with pretty much anything.

Reasons for continuing with BF

1. TINA (There is no alternative.) If there is, you will use it. Bot operators may not have one, opinion players may have options but with different problems (eg staking)

2. Use BF for hedging (as insurance) & arbing (where more likely to win with books & lose on BF)

3. Have losses to mop up

4. Strategy doesn't incur PC

5. Margin insensitive (probable loser)

There may be more of course but this just about covers it I should think.

The problem is not bots as far as I'm concerned.
The problem is that they are now a publicly listed company.
The original mission has been lost to corporate greed.
They will bleed as much as they can until it impacts the bottom line negatively, because they have to drive profits up regardless. (to increase share price).

They believe they have a monopoly because of liquidity, but this is so egotistical it could spell their demise.

As sure as sh*t, others are working on alternatives because BF have opened the door by charging too much, and paved the way to make it easier for others by overcoming gambling laws etc.
There is absolutely no doubt that alternatives are underway by those corporates with enough oomph to provide the startup capital and temporary liquidity required to make it a very attractive alternative.

I'll say that I'd much rather stay with Betfair and am a loyal customer, but if an alternative offer comes along, it will be too late for BF to make better offers.

5% commission as a starting point is too much.
Premium charges are pure greed.

End of.

do you really think 5 percent is too much? and anyone else would charge less? I mean poker sites typically charge a five percent rake on pots for example, so that seems to be a universal level.

It is too much if it decays.
It drives your traditional and recreational punters away.

Ebay kept upping their charges and now it's become a tumbleweed site.
Most of the regulars are all but gone and what's left are grossly overpriced items or they make it up with exhorbitant shipping.

I fall into all of Sandown's first four categories, though they overlap i.e. the losses I have to mop up are arbing losses. Actually, try as I may, I'm continuing making them.

Imv it's important for a company to be liked by its customers. A cheap shop like Aldi is liked, as is a pricey shop that flatters its customers they're distinguished e.g. Waitrose. But it seems that bf is more and more tolerated by its liquidity suppliers as a fact of life, not as a company it's a pleasure to deal w/.

If I were the new bf CEO, I wd throw some money at trying to engineer a change of perception.

from the OP: "as an average punter I don't feel like i'm betting against other average punters anymore"

First, its naive to think that the biggest customers are or have ever been individual punters and not to "old enemy".
Second, if you want to operate within an open a market you have to take the consequences.
Third, what do you mean by banning bots? Ban the API? Or ban all web traffic?

If the API didn't exist I could use firebug to reengineer the site to then use ruby/c#/java to continue placing bets.
in fact the website hangs off the API, and the website is simply a free client app that does not support automated betting*.



*except keep bet.

Imv it's important for a company to be liked by its customers

I'm not sure that this is the case.

Consider Ryanair, for instance. A lot of people I know constantly moan about the rather deceptive pricing structure, and how the company appears to treat its customers with contempt, but they still use Ryanair, because overall it is still the cheapest service.

Contrarian, Ryanair want to grow their margins at the cost maybe of seat occupancy or growth in routes and are stymied b/c the only reason people patronise them is because they are cheap.

Michael O'Leary has said that the company will eventually grow beyond the theatre of having him in charge into more of a standard airline.

When bf try to grow their margins through various premium charges (and I am sure they're considering / have considered basic comm. increases), they run into similar probs. as any firm that competed only on price.

Their basic prob. is that they ideally want to treat losers (who can leave) and winners (w/ whom their relationship is more ambiguous) in entirely different ways, but are frustrated by the most fundamental decision they ever made, on pricing for gamblers and traders.

..