In reference to the argument of this thread, that bots are the problem!

Well for one thing the problem is quite purely to all customers that
the premium charge hike is unfair so any argument as too whats to blame is irrelevant as what is really going on is 500 top profitable customers are beating betfair to a portion of the revenues that are placed into betfair accounts, so really is a tactical battle.

Trying to justify the charge are too say who is to blame is unfair as
all bettors are needed and valued in an exchange but perhaps there
is a need for betfair to raise is marginal profits via the success
of its best customers.

It has been said that betfair may not want winners but this cant be true as if all pc1,2 and 3 payers suddenly stopped betting a huge chunk of profits obtained in the short and mid term would disappear for betfair and there only gains would be the recycling of tiny
commission charges.

The real fulcrum of the success of there new charging system will be
will new and current members be happy with the status quo or will
there be fall-out from customers that now don't embrace betfair, feel that betfair don't want them to share fairly profits, betfair arent happy with winners or liquidity providers etc.

Betfair clearly do own the high ground in the exchange liquidity providing market but its only thanks to customers that keep using them or start using them so in the end its how much money wont be going into accounts in the future that will be worrying after damaging press releases and write ups, all the talk on all the forums concerned with gambling and the social networks that hold debates about different corporation practices.

One thing that is certain is that the love affair that has been going on with betfair and gamblers has dried up and now its just another
company that is in the rat race and just how many rats run too them or away from them will be the hallmark of there future success or failure.

If the bots weren't good for business betfair would disable them or reduce their power in some way.  They already can't hop jump to the front of the queue instantly due to the transaction charge. They can't bombard the servers on a saturday afternoon because of the data charge.  They can't screw too much money out of the system because of the premium charge. But they improve the prices to the end users and therefore result in more bets being matched and more commission so they are worth keeping.

It strikes me that betfair have this situation under much better control than any of the competition.

The ones that operate on the Asian hadicaps in-running offer worse overrounds than most bookmakers, add the commission on top and punters are getting royally fleeced.  I've got not problems with bots operating here because they can be a uselful, but Betfair should only allow them on the remit that certain overrounds are adhered to.  The one mentioned above should be kicked off the site.  105% max.

One of the problems here, as screaming beneath the waves has pointed out, is the problem of nicking value.

Now surely if betfair stuck to the orginal spirit of their company, the idea that here was a betting exchange that would offer an exciting, friendly enviroment for the average customer where people could trade bets against each other, like an open betting market, is surely lost if everytime you try to place a value bet a bot comes along and destroys your whole venture.

If everytime I turned up at a chess tournament I was faced with playing a bank of computers and never got the opportunity to play against flesh and blood opponents who make mistakes like I do, i'd lose interest fairly quickly.

I'm sure if you asked 90 percent of the customer base on here whether they'd like to see bots banned, the silent majority (on this forum you only tend to get to hear from the pc payers)
the screaming beneath the waves people if you will [;)] i'm sure they'd answer in the affirmative.

As I said before, the whole idea of betfair offering a superior alternative to the bookmakers for the average punter has been completely lost.

I now propose that betfair should be renamed "botfair"

So you want a nice, friendly environment where you can fleece the punters with 110% over-rounds?

The fact that the market makers have to fight the bots makes it more competitive and offers better prices to the punters and more business for betfair.

No, I think I am.  What do you mean by 'horrible value'?  If you mean poor value then surely you have the opportunity of getting good value by matching against the bot.  If you mean less value than you would get without the bots then that is exactly my point - if you're getting more value, the punters are getting less!

A bet can't be matched with both parties getting good value!!

I see your point mythical, but unfortunately, the original concept is no more. Hasn't been for some time. It has both evolved and devolved.
It has morphed into a different beast with vultures picking at half dead carcases and if you make it out alive, Betfair pick at what's left.

I think you may need to find a way around the live market, surely if you have your own prices, a bot won't have the same limits in every situation?

Hang on a minute, you're trying to fleece 3% from the punters.
Perhaps that should be outlawed before bots are.
Not trying to be smart, it's a valid point.
I think that you're forgetting that this is a living for many bot users, ban bots and they would just toggle between markets all day doing the same thing manually or just script the whole site causing a horrible load on the servers. The API is definitely a preferred option for all users.

It's easy Lori, the transaction charge could be changed.

The option is there for everyone, whether you understand it or use it is optional. The main site is really designed for the recreational punter.

The option isnt there for everyone anyway is it? I thought you had to have a license to use it.

No, come on that's not what I'm saying at all.
You are crying foul because you don't wish to take up something which is open to everyone.
There is a free API, there is also software which accesses the paid API and you pay a small monthly fee (tiny).

What I'm saying is that serious people relying on the site NOT going down, will avail themselves of the option.

Lori, there is a free API.

I think some of the objection is that people don't want to use a bot, but let's put it into perspective.
A bot is not the same as a chess bot, you are not competing against a computer or a machine, you are competing against someone else's opinion.
They choose to automate their opinion rather than spend the day clicking buttons manually.

catflmasppo Joined: 12 Sep 10
Replies: 139 24 Sep 11 13:42   
Screenscrapers are basically programs that drive the interface just like a user would so they will crash when the site crashes and need updating each time the site is changed.

The api circumnavigates the site completely so, as you say, users can still work even if the site is down.  In actual fact, this is not necessarily a good thing and I would prefer it if the api was suspended during outages.

Ok, that explains it somewhat. (I knew about screenscrapers already)

wouldn't it be fairer if it was just screenscrapers, and so the same for everyone.

I still struggle to see how you can bet if you can't see the site at all but my computing abilities stop at using excel to calculate stuff and programming the ZX Spectrum in BASIC.

Cats, while its certainly true that both punters can't get value, I don't see whats wrong with doing some research and putting up early prices and hoping they get matched. why on earth should I have to compete with a machine?

I'm not a machine I am someone who has automated their betting. Why shouldn't I be allowed to compete with you, especially since in doing so both the average punter and betfair both benefit?

No offence taken btw, happy to discuss it with you anytime

especially since in doing so both the average punter and betfair both benefit?

How does the average punter benefit catf'po?

Better prices, Feck.

Unless you're filling in the "chasm" (which would be filled in anyway) how are they getting better prices? If the book is 100% the expected gross profit/loss for any recreational user is 0%, regardless of how efficient the market is.