General Betting
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23 Sep 11
01:41
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20 Sep 06
clearly I don't need to remind anyone on here about the premium charge. it's been done to death on this forum.
while personally I don't agree with the whole ludicrous idea of charging 60 percent tax on winners, clearly betfair has got
into a desperate state that things have got this bad.
however most of the people complaining about the charge seem to me to be bot users, essentially traders. Now excuse me if
I sound like a bitter old loser (which of course I am) but personally I hate bots.
Whenever I try to put a bet up on a market with low liquidity some frigging bot comes along and within a few seconds undercuts me.
so running out of patience in trying to undercut the bot, I join the queue behind his money. then another bot (or perhaps the same one!) comes along and undercuts that. So you can't win.
I found this post on another thread, which for me reflects the thoughts of probably 99 percent of punters on here:
getintheir
30 Jun 11 15:40
Joined:
29 Sep 01
| Topic/replies: 831 | Blogger: getintheir's blog
i thought betfair was about the average person betting against other similar people. when you atart talking about winning a 1/4 mil in profits you might as well say you are betting against a shyte load a bookies.
i am happy about this pc charge as i don't want to bet against people who have walls of money at prices that are sure to have an edge.
I completely agree. as an average punter I don't feel like i'm betting against other average punters anymore. I feel like i'm betting against remoreless, supercomputers with no sentiment and sympathy for humanity [;)]
the whole original essence of betfair has been lost. part of the problem of course is that betfair is a monopoly that hasn't been challenged. there simply isn't the liquidity to attract punters on ****. so they can do what they like and if you want to carry on being a professional on here and using your bots, then you have to put up or shut up.
I play chess, and I find the similarities with bots on here and computer chess programs very similar. theres a lot of talk about how computers have destroyed chess. it won't be long until they destroy gambling as well.
It simply isn't fun anymore. I propose that betfair ban all automated programs. thats the only way to make it a fair playing ground
for punters. I realise that this might destroy liquidity, but the alternative seems even more less appealing.
while personally I don't agree with the whole ludicrous idea of charging 60 percent tax on winners, clearly betfair has got
into a desperate state that things have got this bad.
however most of the people complaining about the charge seem to me to be bot users, essentially traders. Now excuse me if
I sound like a bitter old loser (which of course I am) but personally I hate bots.
Whenever I try to put a bet up on a market with low liquidity some frigging bot comes along and within a few seconds undercuts me.
so running out of patience in trying to undercut the bot, I join the queue behind his money. then another bot (or perhaps the same one!) comes along and undercuts that. So you can't win.
I found this post on another thread, which for me reflects the thoughts of probably 99 percent of punters on here:
getintheir
30 Jun 11 15:40
Joined:
29 Sep 01
| Topic/replies: 831 | Blogger: getintheir's blog
i thought betfair was about the average person betting against other similar people. when you atart talking about winning a 1/4 mil in profits you might as well say you are betting against a shyte load a bookies.
i am happy about this pc charge as i don't want to bet against people who have walls of money at prices that are sure to have an edge.
I completely agree. as an average punter I don't feel like i'm betting against other average punters anymore. I feel like i'm betting against remoreless, supercomputers with no sentiment and sympathy for humanity [;)]
the whole original essence of betfair has been lost. part of the problem of course is that betfair is a monopoly that hasn't been challenged. there simply isn't the liquidity to attract punters on ****. so they can do what they like and if you want to carry on being a professional on here and using your bots, then you have to put up or shut up.
I play chess, and I find the similarities with bots on here and computer chess programs very similar. theres a lot of talk about how computers have destroyed chess. it won't be long until they destroy gambling as well.
It simply isn't fun anymore. I propose that betfair ban all automated programs. thats the only way to make it a fair playing ground
for punters. I realise that this might destroy liquidity, but the alternative seems even more less appealing.
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how do you know its a bot and not a human placing a bet?
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In what way have computers destroyed chess?
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You can have fun chasing the bot down to its cut off point where it will disappear, but you have to be patient as many bots now have delayed response times to con you in to thinking they're not actually a bot.
Then just leave 2 quid at that point and your main bet will be next in the queue behind it, i.e. 2 quid at 2.1 with your main bet behind it at 2.5, having chased the bot down from 2.48 to 2.12 where it disappears. You can also determine the bot owners estimate of the true price for the event using this method. Anybody wanting a bet may well take some of your main bet as well as your 2 quid. It's not perfect but if everybody did it bot owners would get little business. |
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paulme, it's pretty obvious. unless theres some saddo sitting there watching the market for hours on end, and then when you remove your money he takes all his money off as well, then i'm guessing its a bot.
brendan, they have'nt destroyed chess but it's going that way. the fact is that you can download a free chess program that is stronger than any human. chequers has already been solved. yes, its a long way off but eventually chess will be solved. its not an infinite game. essentially it destroys creativity in opening theory. If you discover an opening novelty now, you can be pretty sure that someone with fritz/rybka or any other chess program will have discovered it already. |
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trev, i like the idea of that but why won't the bot come back and settle between 2.1 and 2.5, thus undercutting your main bet?
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Have they destroyed/destroying it or are they just better at it.
Markets where there are such large gaps in spreads that you have trouble getting to the front because of bots jumping over you  Is that horse racing |
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MP, I don't why, they're not that clever I guess :) Maybe it's difficult to code up?
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*know
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do you play chess yourself brendan?
of course they are stronger, the catalyst for that was the kasparov-deep blue match. but i'm not sure that's really the point. after all you don't compare usain bolt to a racing car. the point is that creativity in chess has been squeezed by the ever increasing strength of computers. yes and I am referring to horse racing here. although the amount of liquidity in early markets is dissapointing these days anyway. perhaps it would be non-existent without bots. which further adds to my impression that betfair is on its last legs, if its being propped up by bots doing battle with one another. |
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No I dont play chess. Chess is probably a bad example as it (perfectly?) suited to computers. Stock market is probably better. Where bots are rife. With books close to 100% in football I dont think anyone pays second thought to them. Trying to lay 2.5 shots @ 2.1 i could see they would be annoying
Watching Boca now inplay and its been max 104% book match inplay for 60mins and more like 100.5% before kickoff. Not sure if horse racing will ever be like that though. |
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bots/computers are useful and available to anybody. it's a level playing field
also it is possible to win here without bots would love a bot that gets the consensus rating for mp's initial comment down to greece |
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so I take it you're an avid bot user then, fixed?
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To bot or not to bot, that is the question.
I see a number of things regarding this. Whenever I try to put a bet up on a market with low liquidity some frigging bot comes along and within a few seconds undercuts me. These bots are set up to only do what you are trying to do, you are simply frustrated because someone is beating you. They don't have any unfair advantage over you, they just got in first. That's smart. Bots are freely available to all and sundry. Like the 1.01 layers when markets open, they just thought of it first. I use a bot, but it certainly would have absolutely no impact on any other punter, it just enables me to to lay the field, which otherwise would take ages and be tedious. Many people think that Betfair don't like or want traders, and that's why they double and triple tax them. Nothing could be further from the truth. Betfair simply saw a way to justify extra charges based on the way they calculate commission. Another way to improve the bottom line, by taxing those who use Betfair the most and can afford to pay. Anyone in any doubt about the above statement simply has to look at Betfair's actions. 1. The API remains open and is encouraged. Shut down the API and the "problem" vanishes. 2. Betfair's advanced education seminars are encouraging traders and those who haven't traded to give it a go. Hence, they can double dip on charges from the converted. Betfair want to increase the traders, not discourage it. It's really a catch 22 situation, before traders, the UK markets had so much liquidity in terms of other markets, that traders saw an easy opportunity to make a few points off backers and layers with an opinion. In Aus or US markets, there are a handful of traders using small stakes by comparison, but the liquidity is so small up to the last thirty seconds, that traders generally stay away, there's too much risk of being left with an open or unmatched position. |
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mythical prince -clueless -very naive -lacks knowledge regarding bots, chess and betting
beat the overround- sensible post |
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Spot on bto.
I use bots and contribute a lot of liquidity. Unlike chess it is not possible to code a bot that can match a human in terms of betting skill so, as TrevH, says they are there to be beaten. I'm sure plenty of shrewdies have switched their tactics and already do beat the bots (mine anyway!). Luckily there are more than enough recreational punters to compensate. |
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BTO,
I sent you a PM the other day. cheers, HD |
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Skilless fast picture cheats are the problem not people placing bets through a different interface.
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I completely agree. as an average punter I don't feel like I'm betting against other average punters anymore.
Everyone starts off as an average punter but those who put in the hard work and study what they do are the ones who go on to make 250k+. It's your choice whether you remain average or not. |
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I propose that betfair ban all automated programs. thats the only way to make it a fair playing ground
for punters. Things are pretty fair right now because the barriers to using a bot are actually very low. If you know enough Excel you could have something up and running by the end of the day, if not you could get some of the free software out there in no time at all. If you can't find what you want I could build you a bot which makes sure you're the best price for a given selection up to a pre-defined limit, you could even be the best price on the purple place at the same time to improve your chances of getting matched. In return I would like 50% of each week's profit made from the bot. |
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Most people would lose no matter how much hard work or study they put in.
You certainly dont need a bot to win £250k I expect all the biggest winners use bots, but the biggest winners will win miles more than £250k The betting industry is 99.9% parasitic unfortunately. It was before Betfair, but nowhere nr what it is like now. Bots do destroy liquidity in certain markets but they also help it greatly in others. Bots are banned on poker sites AFAIK The biggest bot user by far is Betfair itself fwiw. Bots are here to stay unfortunately although I think they should consider banning them on certain markets and certain other markets at certain times if its technically possible. Be interesting to see them test certain markets. |
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frog2
Skilless fast picture cheats are the problem not people placing bets through a different interface. How is this "cheating"? The pictures are available if you want them. Plus, if you are going to play in-running, you are aware there are others with with more tools than you. It is your choice on whether you want to put the money down or not. |
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If it was skilless everyone would have them by now
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On the bots:
They have been and are there. It comes down to finding a 'strategy' to work around them. In horses, they tend to stick to the front three in the market. So sometimes this means trading other horses to build a small green that then hedges if you have to reach up (or down) to get your bet in. The bots do tend to 'eat themselves'. Watch the dogs in the morning and refresh every second. They will leapfrog each other and if you intend on backing, can add lots of value to your play. And if you are laying, don't get caught up in the chase. Stick to value and skip a race rather than give away the ROI. |
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What I mean is fast pictures aren't going to just make you money. You've got to be skilled enough and confident enough that you are going to win with them to go to the effort of getting them. It's also a skill I'd imagine to source the fastest pictures
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It's not cheating but it is a gross corruption of IR betting...imagine if to place a normal bet on a horse, you had to go to the course or to a fast-pic shop, failing that you only got half the odds elsewhere...there'd be uproar and the sport would die overnight....nonsense to have a betting medium which is only viable to people who are willing to travel (in my case min. 3-hr rnd trip to nrst fast-pic shop)
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I agree with CLYDEBANK.
Everyone thinks that the bots and fast pictures are the only way to make money. That way of thinking is the same as saying the footwear makes the football player. I only use ATR for races over a mile. Otherwise, I rely on the screen and keep radio on just for an 'idea' on what is happening. When using ATR, if you've targeted a horse for play and you know its racing behavior, a matter of watching how the race unfolds to know which way to play. If you plan is to grab 1.10 on the run in, you might as well visit the arcade for the day. |
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CLYDEBANK29 23 Sep 11 10:43
What I mean is fast pictures aren't going to just make you money. You've got to be skilled enough and confident enough that you are going to win with them to go to the effort of getting them. It's also a skill I'd imagine to source the fastest pictures in some sports it's part of the employee's benefit package  the issue is not that its cheating, it's that betfair offer inadequate protection which serves as a barrier to people wanting to bet on in play markets. i'm intrigued by mythical prince's opening post. he seems to say it's bad for betfair that if he puts up a mug's price in an illiquid market, it's unfair and bad for betfair that his offer is trumped by automated software. given their clear focus on profitability it would surprise me at all if it was betfair trumping it. |
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duncan....then don't play. Simple.
Don't give them your liquidity. Focus your efforts elsewhere if the value isn't there. |
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Betfair cant stop fast pictures. So I would not bet on markets where you at such a large competitive disadvantage. No use pontificating about something that nothing can be done about.
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I have no problem with bots, trading, whatever it's just the way of the world. We all have choices to use these if we wish.
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In reality, anyone thats losing money on Betfair should stop betting.
Personally, I would ban all bots so that I can win more money |
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If you can't find what you want I could build you a bot which makes sure you're the best price for a given selection up to a pre-defined limit, you could even be the best price on the purple place at the same time to improve your chances of getting matched. In return I would like 50% of each week's profit made from the bot.
Does that offer include a guaranteed winning strategy DBZE  |
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People who use bots are *******.
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'duncan....then don't play. Simple.'
Right, so i make 5-fig profits for the last 3 yrs despite having slow pics, make decision to go part-time workwise and am just supposed to go 'ho-hum' when they then allow people to go on course, something i was told was illegal, making 50% of racing practically unplayable? Yeah, simple. Of course i dont gift them money now on ATR. Thanks for your priceless advice tho. Muppet. |
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Nice one hazel
Personally, I would ban all the bots except mine! |
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I done agree with the point of this thread at all, traders are only trying to achieve the same as everyone else, to make consistent profits after all isn't that the whole idea of an exchange where players bet against each other in either perceived edging or trading out of profitable positions.
The plain fact is the pc1 and pc2 charges are a reflection of the cost of maintaining and promoting the market leader forwards globally and across product types, other exchanges have spent much less but are nowhere near Betfairs liquidity or prestige. Betfair should try and push there profit margins via other routes instead of relying on the best customers profits and why on earth they waste money on lmax trading concept when its a dead duck and they havent produced bingo yet when the market for female customers hasn't been addressed via this route confounds me. Hundreds of other bingo sites have cropped up in the mean time with some having as many members as betfair, millions. Come on Betfair lets see you go the extra mile to expand your business instead of raiding your core customers. |
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And to totally debunk this thread look at real exchange trading
How long would the stock market last if traders where pecieved as killing the eco-system and that they need super taxing. Come on take a reality check please! |
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If you lay at 2.02 and a bot comes in and lays at 2.04, it's just made that better for anyone wanting to back and IMPROVED betfair.
hth. |
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Trading is the backbone of all exchange models and crucial to betfairs
success past,present and future! |