General Betting
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
22 Apr 11
11:37
Joined:
Date Joined:
10 Jan 02
Betfair send their own rep(s) to the event. The bet placement delay is set at (say) 2 secs (regardless of sport) for any event they have rep(s) present. The betfair rep(s) are allowed to place ir bets or offers which are not subjected to a bet placement delay. At the end of each week betfair calculate the following (each sport treated separately)
x = 100 * (all rep's profits - all rep's wages & expenses) / (Total of winnings on all rep's profitable bets)
Everyone matched with a winning betfair rep bet on that sport is then refunded x% of their loss on that bet.
Pros
1) There would be little point in going to the expense and time of travelling to an event as you'd only get to mop up the crumbs the reps missed. This would mean almost everyone would be using the same feed. In horse racing they could also have rep(s) using sis/turftv with zero placement delay to catch anything the course rep(s) missed, effectively forcing everyone on to the atr/ruk/terrestrial pictures.
2) This might mean atr/ruk would no longer have any reason to delay pictures and they might speed up to attract subscribers.
3) Betfair customers no longer fodder for talentless parasites and racetech and gravy train journalist filth. Racecourses no longer able to leech off said parasites with their trading rooms.
Cons
1) Trusting the rep(s) not to hold back and bet on their own accounts.
2) In running betting would effectively be reduced to betting at fairly neutral points.
Betfair could just allow anyone to have a zero bet placement delay rep account (confined to bets on event(s) in question and placed only through a certain internet address which would make sure they were at the event) in return for y% of the winnings. Don't know what value of y is feasible but the number of "reps" would dwindle if it wasn't feasible in which case it might become feasible.
x = 100 * (all rep's profits - all rep's wages & expenses) / (Total of winnings on all rep's profitable bets)
Everyone matched with a winning betfair rep bet on that sport is then refunded x% of their loss on that bet.
Pros
1) There would be little point in going to the expense and time of travelling to an event as you'd only get to mop up the crumbs the reps missed. This would mean almost everyone would be using the same feed. In horse racing they could also have rep(s) using sis/turftv with zero placement delay to catch anything the course rep(s) missed, effectively forcing everyone on to the atr/ruk/terrestrial pictures.
2) This might mean atr/ruk would no longer have any reason to delay pictures and they might speed up to attract subscribers.
3) Betfair customers no longer fodder for talentless parasites and racetech and gravy train journalist filth. Racecourses no longer able to leech off said parasites with their trading rooms.
Cons
1) Trusting the rep(s) not to hold back and bet on their own accounts.
2) In running betting would effectively be reduced to betting at fairly neutral points.
Betfair could just allow anyone to have a zero bet placement delay rep account (confined to bets on event(s) in question and placed only through a certain internet address which would make sure they were at the event) in return for y% of the winnings. Don't know what value of y is feasible but the number of "reps" would dwindle if it wasn't feasible in which case it might become feasible.
sort by:
Show
per page
Replies: 84
|
By:
Funny how all the fast pic people loved it when it was them at an advantage in trading shops but have started bleating in the last 18 months or so.
|
|
By:
Betfair could just allow anyone to have a zero bet placement delay rep account (confined to bets on event(s) in question and placed only through a certain internet address which would make sure they were at the event) in return for y% of the winnings. Don't know what value of y is feasible but the number of "reps" would dwindle if it wasn't feasible in which case it might become feasible.
The more I think about this the more I think this is the way forward but with the following changes (wrt racing), "reps" are subject to a 1 sec bet placement delay (to protect them from each other) & all others to a 2 or 3 second delay. Effectively what this amounts to is, betfair hire the course trading rooms and anyone who wants to bet there gets to do so as a "rep" but they have to give a large percentage of their winnings back to those who had losing bets with them. For the stay at home punter this would mean that when they placed a bet it would probably either be matched by someone at a similar time disadvantage or they'd have placed a bet with a course player who'd very likely have to refund a proportion of their bet should the stay at home punter lose. |
|
By:
When I was arguing that bets on fallen horses shd be voided, I realised that bf wd have to intervene in the markets in a timely fashion to avoid serious market manipulation.
Another danger might be that the bf representative cd have race-reading skills superior to those of the trading room money-buyers--resulting in bigger losses for IR players and faster attrition of participations. The more skilled the representative, the fewer the 'neutral points'--would there be any at all? For this reason I prefer the idea of offering a far higher comm rate to independent on-track players. There are ways of making the scheme comm-neutral (or poss. better) for bf. It wd stave off claims that some successful bettors were carrying out a business and cd be taxed and wdn't necessarily mean any decline in revenue for the tracks. |
|
By:
*faster attrition of market participants
|
|
By:
Don't worry, racing is in decline anyway. It's better for Betfair to focus on getting a bigger slice of the football betting pie.
the beautiful game: where the future is! |
|
By:
How would you know who these independent on-track players were askari. Anyway, my latest post suggested some of those independent on-track players would become the "reps" but would be refunding a large part of their winnings to those they fleeced.
I don't see why there would be a great decrease in neutral moments. Certainly the "reps" would have a bigger time advantage (maybe .75 of a furlong rather than .5) but we all know that when you're betting at non-neutral moments from home you're either going to be too late for the successful bets and get the unsuccessful ones matched. |
|
By:
It's better for Betfair to focus on getting a bigger slice of the football betting pie.
It applies to football as well investor, though not every game. |
|
By:
On second thought, probably no need for it in football games.
|
|
By:
Feck, I was broadly supporting yr latest post. Rather than bf having their own reps on track (wh/ wd give them the principal-agent prob. you describe) they cd grant licenses whose terms set a much higher comm. rate in return for a quicker bet placement period (than for non-licensees). If anyone wanted to take up a license w/out being on-track (poss. stupidly), the impact on ordinary IR players wd not be negative.
There might be fewer neutral moments if bf made it imposs. to 'money-buy' on fallers, horses pulling up, horses suffering interference etc. The more IR became a matter of skill for any winner (trackside or not), the more a bettor at home wd be disadvantaged by not seeing a big jump, a jockey giving reminders etc. Of course, as you say, he is at the moment. The investor, football is so boring compared to horses! There are too good teams in the world and they play each other four times in two weeks. And people complain that the flat season lacks a narrative and is badly structured! |
|
By:
*two good teams
|
|
By:
Sorry askari, I misunderstood. I still think returning a large percentage of their winnings (to those who had losing bets with them) would be the preferred option. Re conducting a business, they could be thought of as betfair employees on a bonus scheme.
|
|
By:
May as well start at the start:
Feck N. Eejit 22 Apr 11 11:37 Joined: 10 Jan 02 | Topic/replies: 3,346 | Blogger: Feck N. Eejit's blog Betfair send their own rep(s) to the event. Are you serious? |
|
By:
See my 22 Apr 15:23 post RTTF.
|
|
By:
When I put this up I was expecting a lot of abuse from the course players although I suppose they did have a day off yesterday. I'm astonished I've barely had a word of support from the stay at home punters though given that if they got matched with someone betting through betfair's course trading room they'd get a fair portion of their stake back if they lost but all of their winnings if they won.
|
|
By:
A guaranteed hoovering, for a percentage of the hoovered bets back? The delay is already insufficient on a lot of tennis, snooker and darts matches. People that try to tell you otherwise are protecting their own interests.
Rather than increasing their advantage (regardless of the fact they have to give some back), why not impose some limits to their activities rather than changing the dynamics of the person-to-person exchange? |
|
By:
Betfair know who the fast pic boys are. Charge them appropriately and dole it out amongst those matched by their bets. Rather than imposing a premium tax which catches out the ordinary users with no time advantage.
|
|
By:
p.s. I can see the attraction with your idea but creating superusers will make it worse. Much better to have betfair to hoover everything themselves and dish it all back out afterwards, agree?!
|
|
By:
Agree with your 11:36 post baldloaf but doubt bf would have the will. I also agree the idea is probably unappealing wrt sports where the bet placement delay is greater than the feed delay.
|
|
By:
The lack of comments from course players suggests they fear this is a viable way forward.
|
|
By:
These refunds would certainly reduce my premuim charges.
|
|
By:
If it doesn't lose bf commission and it allows them to hang onto customers disgusted by getting repeatedly hoovered, why wd they be against it? Other things being equal, bf have an interest in any winning client losing, esp. consistent, low-risk winners.
As far as I understand, they need to do a lot of rejigging at the moment w/ diff. bet placement delays wrt the feed for live sports. Their feed for frames betting in snooker seems to be too slow to prevent courtsiders getting the price. Rather than having to work out complicated equations (about comm., the value of protecting customers etc.) they cd issue make the market or collect license income in return for market access. |
|
By:
The lack of comments on this idea illustrates that the bulk of ir horse racing is made up of 2 types of people, fast pic merchants and half-wits.
|
|
By:
It wd not surprise me if a lot of the would-be IR sharks are actually losing (rarely but enough to make them overall losers) to winning fast-pic players.
Otherwise who are these people winning off? Can there be anyone who looks up, decides on a bet, re-checks the colours and submits? |
|
By:
Never underestimate the stupidity of the human race askari.
|
|
By:
i think the reason that you're not getting any flack from the track players is that they probably don't feel they have anything to defend. they all know that actions speak louder than words and betfair have clearly shown by their actions(or non actions) over the years that they have no intention of tampering with the in running product. admirable as your intentions are feck, there's no way betfair would ever adopt a plan like yours - too complicated, nobody knows where they stand till end of week settlement etc etc. the track players know that they have migrated to the top of the in running food chain and i'd say that most of them fully realise that what they are doing most likely has a shelf life to it and are just going to hammer it till their advantage comes to its natural conclusion.
|
|
By:
Apart from betfair having to organise their own course trading room I don't see anything complicated about it at all bank man.
|
|
By:
Anybody, whether Betfair related or not, having different terms to place bets (i.e. different delays) would cause immense issues, practical, legal and perception wise.
Although saying that, I think the other parts of what you are saying are probably not that far from the end game for Betfair, which as I see it, would have a Betfair subsidiary doing the on track in-play trading. The other viable option for Betfair to garner a larger slice of the money that is going to in-running punters is to purely increase the premium charge %age. For some reason I think the first option would be slightly more palatable to the general populous of Betfair punters, however I wouldn't rule them out of doing both. |
|
By:
quick pictures through the internet is where betfair needs to try and encourage the broadcasters to be operating through a subsciption service . this could bring the delay down to only around 1 second , which would make playing at the track not as profitable as it is now .
all people would have to do is to install a graphics card with dual monitor capabilities to your computer for around £80 . then you could watch the racing on your tv streamed through the internet , whilst still betting on your computer . |
|
By:
shocking in this day and age there are delays, I don't play IR only the keep bet option when after laying shorter IR than SP on front runners etc. every bet should be voided on fallers once they have hit the deck or unseated as in the rule book they are now out and can't remount, why should people be able to hoover these risk free?? betfair should have reps at the course with info on times of fallers and any bets after this should all be voided!! could open a can of worms if suspending betting on fallen horses so best void them after the event - can only nthink betfair like these bankers for paying PC
|
|
By:
Increasing the PC would also affect those who arent at it.
If they really wanted to do something about it then the accounts could easily be identified. I dont think anybody cares. There are so many fingers in the pie. |
|
By:
Well said John92
|
|
By:
Countdown obviously hasn't started yet since Mucho is posting haha
|
|
By:
You know me john,hows it going?
|
|
By:
The delays will always be there while people in racetech/atr/ruk & journalists are picking up free money because of it. If my idea were adopted they no longer would be.
|
|
By:
Im doing as well as ever. Ive given up on some tracks and things will get a bit harder next month when analouge gets switched off but never mind.
On the plus side I seem to have finally figured out Kempton! Tell Biscar I am asking for him. Also - The Premium Charge means that Betfair are also in effect making money from the delays. They would now have to be certain that any increase in turnover/commission from a more level playing field, would compensate them for the reduction in PC income. Another finger in the pie. |
|
By:
^ Hit nail on head imo - all parties that could act have a vested interest in not doing so.
|
|
By:
Will do John,keep up the good work
|
|
By:
going back to fecks original post, i think there would be fundamental problems in deciding how many reps would be required at each track. obviously the more you have the fairer the system would be - this is borne out by the current situation at each individual track. a fair example being say leicester where there is (please correct me if i'm wrong) about 60 guys with hard wired internet compared to somewhere like ascot where there is none(bar the press guys). anyone who plays in running at home or a trading room will appreciate these huge differences. then you have loads of intermediate stages of this such as sandown which i think has only 1 or 2 boxes or fakenham with similar amounts of players. ludlow has none, newcastle has loads. it goes on and on. betfair would really have to weigh up how cost effective this use of manpower would be and i'd seriously doubt they'd come out in favour of it as imo you'd need at least 8 to 10 reps playing at each track and even then they'd never get all angles covered in races with lots of runners. in summer when there are 6 or so meetings every day this would be a hell of a lot of manpower/cost. obviously increasing the bet placement delay would reduce the number of reps required but i'd still think it would amount to too much cost.
|
|
By:
bank man, my 22 Apr 11 15:23 post did away with betfair reps. The "reps" were made up of anyone who wanted to do it. Effectively the current better course players would become the "reps" while the lesser ones would give it up because it was no longer worthwhile (i.e. the numbers would sort themselves out).
|