Betfair in Germany

whats happening. would i be correct that betfair getting banned there?

from 2012 only 7 accredited betting firms will be allowed to operate and they will have to pay a 16.7% turnover tax! In addition in-play betting is to be banned.

To be clear: virtually no betting firm could afford to pay that 16.7% on turnover without offering massively worse odds. Betfair clearly could not so they won`t even apply for a licence.

http://blogs.wsj.com/source/2011/04/07/germanys-big-gamble/

"Betfair Group shares fell 4.8%, even though German revenues are only about 5% of its business"

5%!!...if true really surrised it was as much as that

some countries do have some issues, with betting sites, i go off shore because new zealand simply aint got nothing like betfair......bet365 etc but banning live betting , gee thats tough.

wow, BWIN share price took a hammering no doubt...

bwin down 16% Wednesday and a further 9% Thursday

BWin dropped 16% I believe

crazy regulation, no bportsbook can be competitive with that level tax...

*sportsbook

"Since the 2008-2009 “Great Recession” and the ensuing sluggish recovery, governments across the globe have been in dire need of fresh and sustainable revenue. Prof. Tosney argues it is usually this economic environment which activates further liberalisation of the gambling industry. In fact, since 2008, there has been a flurry of regulations coming out of Italy, France, Spain, Bulgaria, and Greece, and they will be soon be followed by Germany, Holland, and many US states. China, too, is considering expanding the lottery/gambling games it permits."

"Online gambling has forced countries to move hurriedly to regulate so they do not lose out on the tax revenue. But the tax regime that many governments implemented, such as in France, is unnecessarily high. It seems that many legislators are unable to free themselves from the archaic stereotype of a gambling industry dominated by Bugsy Siegel and Al Capone instead of focusing on an industry that employs brilliant statistical modellers, innovative software designers, and uses state of the art technology."

"In the last three decades economic and social policy has moved markedly towards market oriented solutions in the West as much as in the East. But this policy adaptation has not been extended to the gambling industry. Even the EU’s most successful steps were in creating a single market where services and people were free to move without hindrance. Well, not all services, because the gambling industry was not allowed to exercise this freedom by several member states. The EU Green Book on online gambling was very long on responsible gambling and customer protection but extremely short on EU-wide market liberalisation. National governments have been giving far too much attention to a tiny minority of problem gamblers whose numbers do not merit the regulatory overkill. The numbers and costs associated with obesity, alcoholism, accidents and deaths in the work-place, or even teen pregnancy are massive by comparison."

The French rate is 8.8% on turnover (and I believe is what finished off Eurosportbet)

Goodness knows what operators will be interested at 16.7%

Italy is 3.8%

This is a massive kick in the cojones, gutted like a lot of others must be too. Maybe bookies can challenge this in Strasbourg and at least delay the thing for a few years ?

Anyone with more info on what`s likely to happen now or how this might pan out ?

Search google news for it, lots of news stories.

RAPS I also live in Germany and it doesn´t look good. Can´t see many betting firms seeking a licence to operate in Germany with 16.7% tax on turnover. Presumably this will also mean online betting firms - so effectively Germany will go the way of the US.

I hope that it might be possible to continue using Betfair through a proxy server - but this will cost money- and the authorities here will no doubt find a way to close that loophole too.

It looks like I could have some bad news for my girlfriend...

Why don't German's just pick up the phone?

There used to be 10% tax on turnover in the UK.  Punters got on the phone to Ireland where tax was 5% or Gibraltar where tax was 0%.  It's what led to the much better situation for everybody where tax was reduced to zero and replaced by a profit's tax.

.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/apr/06/bwin-party-rocked-by-german-betting-tax

The states' governors made it clear that bets would only be allowed on the outcome of games, not on things such as half-time results or the identities of scorers.

How could anyone be so worked-up about the nature of such bets - as to want them outlawed?

"How could anyone be so worked-up about the nature of such bets - as to want them outlawed?"
Obviously never met a control freak.. :(

only 1,5 months  playing on betfair left in Poland btw. Polish goverment introducing 12 % turnover tax. So in this part of europe you will not be alone

I'd like to say that half of Poland is already living in the UK and Ireland but this is seriously bad news.

To be honest it's a bit worrying and annoying. All the countries throwing up barriers and inhibiting what their residents can do in this area etc seems regressive. For old fashioned bookies not so bad, for an international business like BF that relies on punters to make it work in the first place ... well it screws them AND the punters.

Yes, government pretends they are protecting consumers, but they seems to have no qualms about screwing them when it suits them.

I can't help feeling that Betfair is a victim of it's dominance and it's product and these decisions are more about protectionism.

Would the French, Germans, Poles and Italians introduce such taxes if Betfair was a French or German company taking business from the British?  I somehow doubt it.  The worry is, how easy it is to flout EU principles and tax the product as harmful on a similar principle to tobacco, fuel and liqour, but with betting and the British based Betfair makes the product legally uneconomical.

^
good point. The European governments should sit round the table and work out a (tax) profit share based on volume of bets matched per country.

The northern Land of Schleswig-Holstein doesn't seem to like these proposals. Will it be able to go its own way?

Der Deutsche Buchmacherverband setzt sich daher voll und ganz für den Schleswig-Holsteinischen Sonderweg ein und würde die dort vorgesehene Steuer auf den Bruttoertrag von 20 Prozent (entspricht etwa 3 % bis 4 % vom Wetteinsatz) begrüßen.

Das ist im internationalen Vergleich in Europa am oberen Ende der Skala ohne jedoch die Wette zu erdrosseln.

The German Bookmakers' Association is therefore fully and totally supporting the lone path offered by Schleswig-Holstein and would welcome their planned gross-profits tax of 20% (corresponding to approximately 3% to 4% of turnover).

Compared internationally that is at the upper end of the scale in Europe, but would not strangle betting altogether.

http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nachrichten-2011-04/19886578-gluecksspielstaatsvertrag-wird-erneut-scheitern-vernichtung-der-rennwette-durch-protektionistische-besteuerung-wird-in-kauf-genommen-007.htm

Use a UK based VPN rather than a proxy server.

What, please, is a VPN ?

just another example of the farce that is the EU...

In what way? If we didn't have an EU I'd say the amount of barriers we have for cross border 'trade' would be massively higher than they are now. When I say "I say" I mean "it's mind bogglingly obvious".

Are China in the Eu ? doesn't seem to stop them trading with us.

Please explain why this is "an example of the farce that is the EU?"

Given that about the only thing that would ever be a pressure for preventing this WOULD be the EU, and cases taken to EU courts about EU trade law.

I'm all ears.

don't wont to get into this here but I believe in small government and despise all these layers of people deciding what I can or cant do and how much they will steal off me for the privilege.

This is not about the state protecting anyone or deciding what people can do or cant do,... they just want the Money from the betting industry at all cost. Its as simple as that.

Of course we are talking about Germany which means Consumer rights or freedom of choice arent worth a flying fook.

The worst thing is that knowing my Countrymen no one (NO ONE) will do anything about it.

That whole protesting stuff and Civil Initiative thing is just not the way it works over here,... it hasnt for the last 1000 Years and it certainly wont change for something unimportant like betting.

Makes me sick every day..... :( Sad Stuff....

Parrys I'm completely with you on that, and don't like what the german gov are doing! But that's their decision. As I say the thing most likely to stop this sort of crap IS the EU, it's not the cause, it might be the cure. BF have already had fights in the EU courts trying to STOP this stuff as restraint of trade etc.

Anna: They just allow you to cause trouble in Berlin once a year to let you get it out of your system .

hippie what is a VPN?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_network

Hi RAPS, good luck for your moving to Switzerland !!
(Sie nehmen Dich mit Kusshand!).

I've heard the news too- this is a complex staff..
First, betting culture and history is complete different
(England vs. Germany).Betting no way is socially accepted in Germany- there is a huge image problem, for instance going
to the races.
Betting here is a matter of state, (Lotto etc.)

There are several hundert billion turnover on LOTTO per anno;
You may guess how big the tax rate is ...  50%!
And the ominous 16,5% concerning the racing'industry', which will nearly complete repaid to the 'Rennvereine'!
Because horse racing in Germany is an order from the government
to the operator of the race track !
And this 'business' is in recent years in full decline.

So the recent initiatives are going in diretion to open
the betting market for the internet and regulate it proper..
You know, we are a country where everything is regulatet by law
very well..
So I am not too pessimistic looking towards the future of betting in this country.
The would be lucky, to hear BETFAIR is awarded twice by her majesty the Queen..........

herm ,where do you live, I´m an English teacher if you´re interested...

herm, let me thank you for your view on our "racing industry", have a look at the famous track Hoppegarten, all the former fame is gone. My local tracks (Leipzig+Halle) are struggling to survive.

And: you do not need an English teacher, but there are always people who want to find a fault with s.o.

TiptheOdds: Replace the second comma in your sentence with a question mark and it would start to make sense.

"I'm an English teacher ..." In your dreams, mate.

Herm, alle Englischsprachigen koennen ohne Problem verstehen, was du meinst.

So they are cutting out in play betting......that sucks!
I was thinking about living in Germany sometime in the future, my uncles worked and lived there and say I should give it a go but I would need betting probably

With a 16.7 € tax on turnover I don't think it matter to serious punters what kind of markets they can or can't offer.

16.7 %

Bookies are to clean, should have bunged politicians a few quid

VPN (Virtual Private Network) is the sort of technology dissidents use to get their voices heard anonymously. It's a secure tunnel to a server that even an ISP can't monitor. All your internet activity appears to be coming from the server's IP address and not from your real IP.

Financial details are far too valuable to trust to a proxy server or hide IP software.

you can like it poles, german or not but 80 milions living in germany and 40 milions in Poland. And it will be massive lost for betfair ;)

Same as we feel lack of French people. When French temas are playing there are lack of bets and supporters. Its very important to have every country here ... ;) But its going in other way. Only hope for bf is now Usa

USA would be good. Be especially nice if the MLS games had more money in them and less tumbleweed.

At the moment the regulation is only a first draft but no "hard" law. I think it is more likely that there are changes. Even the countrys want collcet money and that is impossible with these regulation. A private bookmaker can not really gain any profit and so i have some doubts that the gouvernment will sell 7 licenses and without sold licenses they will have no revenue and money is the deciding point.

Peter: When you say: "Even the countries want to collect money ..." do you mean "the states"?

In English das Land = the country when it refers to Germany as a nation, but is translated as the state or the region when it refers to Niedersachsen or Schleswig-Holstein for example.

How much power do individual German states have to defy the wishes of central Government? If Berlin demands a 16.66% tax on turnover, but Schleswig-Holstein goes ahead with a 20% tax on gross profits, can Berlin penalize the regional government in some way?

Tipptheodds: I liked your comment; my english explanation (?)
indeed is not as good as it should be !
In this case was no time to work it over- so I forgot the amendment, I normally use: "Sorry for my bad english. Any corrections will be appriciated".

So the answer will be definitely YESS.

P.S. Of(f) course I live in the TEUTOBURGER WOOD.

P.S. II  16,7 % is correct.

T.WOODS, I should say, a lot of woodden trees.
Hopefully ONE mistake corrected.

"How much power do individual German states have to defy the wishes of central Government? If Berlin demands a 16.66% tax on turnover, but Schleswig-Holstein goes ahead with a 20% tax on gross profits, can Berlin penalize the regional government in some way? "

Gambling is a matter of federal states and the central gouvernment can not regulate here something (at least in principle). As the Lottery is organized by all federal states together all states have a lottery bill which is basically the same. From german point of view lottery and gambling is basically the same so they want regulate it in one bill.

That means every federal state will have his own gambling bill but based on a mutal agreement of all federal stats (Staatsvertrag). At the moment we have seen only the first draft for such a mutal agreement.

Nevertheless i think they are serious. The german ministerial bureaucracy consits mostly of jurists and very often they have no clue about the matter they regulate and - that is the real problem - they do not know it and - much worser - they refuse to know it. (A typical dictum by a german jurist is "A judge does not calculate".). A german jurist believe that a law is a fact so they are really think that the regulations will work.

At the end they will lose again but they can still manage much damage. 

(I hope i have now choosen the correct terms [;)])

Thanks, Peter. Have I understood this correctly?

Individual German states are allowed to set their own regulations and taxes for gambling, but have to follow the regulations and taxes set by central government for the national lottery. Now, however, the central government is arguing that all forms of gambling are simply the same as the lottery, and central government is therefore allowed to dictate regulations and taxes to the individual states.

So if Schleswig-Holstein refused to introduce a 16.7% turnover tax, it could surely argue legally that gambling on a football match or a horse race is a game of skill or an investment, and totally different from buying a lottery ticket?

"Individual German states are allowed to set their own regulations and taxes for gambling, but have to follow the regulations and taxes set by central government for the national lottery. "

The national lottery is in the hands of the federal states. Every state could organize its own lottery but they have decided to do it together which at end brings much more money. The central gouvernment hase made rules for slot machines which are used in pubs and so on. The dishonesty of the german action is shown by the fact that the regulation of slot machines was softed (!!) in the last years so it was much easier to waste your money on slots than gambling in the internet ! But gambling addicts prefers slots !

"So if Schleswig-Holstein refused to introduce a 16.7% turnover tax, it could surely argue legally that gambling on a football match or a horse race is a game of skill or an investment, and totally different from buying a lottery ticket? "

Yes, this is possible.

Maybe Schleswig-Holstein can be the saving grace. As Tasmania was in Australia.

Herm, tut mir leid für meinen früher post. I didn´t mean to be sarcastic - I was having a bad day. Leider bin ich in Niedersachsen.

"für meinen früheren Post" oder ?

Hippie, although I`ve never tried one and never will due to the illegality I am told that using a VPN or Proxy Server to access Betfair adds 1 - 2 seconds (sometimes more)to your delay in getting matched. For a lot of in-play bettors (me, at least) that isn`t an option that could be considered.

RAPS, to you it may be "illegal" but to me, as an Englishman, it's a practical means of not getting piss-balled about by German, French, Italian etc. narrow-mindedness.

If you're operating within 1-2 second margins I'm sure you'll find a solution with your supercomputer anyway.

Enjoy your lottery.

hippie, if a country decides to ban a certain betting website then it is illegal to bet with them in that country. That has nothing to do with being an Englishman, Chinaman or Martian, it also has nothing to do with our personal opinions (anyway we all agree on this thread). It is still illegal.

It may be illegal RAPS but is it not the case that using a VPN hides your actual IP address, making it impossible for the authorities to identify you?

In Germany it is also illegal to ride your bike in daytime without lights; illegal to cross the street without waiting for a green man; and illegal to ride your bike on a cyclepath in the wrong direction but that doesn´t mean everybody has (other than native Germans of course!) to obey them.

I'm not even sure it's illegal to place bets. I thought it was only illegal for the company to accept them?

They will get you via IP and via deposits from German banks, like US does i think

"I'm not even sure it's illegal to place bets. I thought it was only illegal for the company to accept them? "

The problem is more complicated. It seems to me that Betfair has an old GDR licence bought or rented and can at least offer bets in East Germany. The legal situation is highly complicated and there are a lot of different judgements by various courts. There is absolut no clear picture. It depends on the court, local authorities and many other factors. They have all different opinions. It seems to me that at the moment gambling is possible because the most claimants win their case against public authorities.

"They will get you via IP and via deposits from German banks, like US does i think"

These are no really barriers. VPN is generally legal and you can place bets outside your country. So Betfair accepts no bets from France even when you have not the french nationality. But every Frenchman can place a bet when he is UK. That is perfect legal.

And as we today live in an european economic space it is absolutley no obligation or imperative to have an account in your local town.

So the people realy wanting to can bet, 99.99999999% wont bother

Someone wrote in this Thread that we are a country where everything is regulated by law in detail..

LOL, only thing they didnt regulate over here is paying decent working people a proper minimum Wage.

Thats where we Germans are the most liberal of all.... and in 14 Days when the whole lot of Eastern Workforces will invade German soil offering themselfs for 3 Bucks and hour people will have to work Fulltime for nothing and Claim Social Benefits to feed their Familys or themselfs.

Germany is going downhill for about 12 Years now,... everyone knows it, no one does anything about it and the Government is Full of Bollox with incompetent Lobby Puppets.

1. Chancelor Merkel / Incompetent Communist with a GDR Ph.D. in Physics that aint worth a flying fook; she doesnt really know what Democrazy means at all and just does what she's told.

2. Guido Butt Buddy Westerwave,... who is (together with his Henchmen) nothing else but the prolonged arm of the Corporations in the Government.


With all that Crap Going on over here for 12 unbeareable years no one can really expect those in Charge to do anything sensible when it comes down to stuff like betting.

Dont be absurd.

Oh and maybe a few Background Infos for all the Brits and other people around here:

A few Years Back 2010 there was this "Lotto State Treaty" Wwhich in its nature is a Public Treaty between the German States (Bavaria/NR - Westphalica/ etc...),... this piece of unconstitutional Legislation (and it is in Fact Legislation !) was of course signed and waved through overnight by the State Governements.

It basicaly makes it impossible to operate any Gambling Buiseness in Germany.

Betfair is Operating on an old GDR (German Democratic Republic) Bookie License over here which are still valid for a certain Period despite the Recent State Treaty.

Racing is a whole different thing cause its regulated seperatley by the "Racing Laws" from 1920 (which basicaly still are in Effect,.... and there wasnt any Internet around when those where made).

In Detail its all very complicated and confusing,... technicaly having a Betfair Account (or any other Account with a Betting Site) is penalized by Criminal law over here and could get one into Jail, but then of course most Firms have some sort of EU License which according to the Majority Opinion in the Legislation prohibits any Criminal Implications.

With all those aged and confusingly sensless Laws nobody really knows what to do in Terms of Betting so people Did just Punt and State Attorneys did just attend to the important Stuff (like real Criminals) and it worked wonderfully :).

Now of Course the greedy Barstewards in the Government noticed the growth in the Betting Industry over the past 5 - 10 Years and want the fatest piece of the Pie and they want it now.

If no private Company wants to operate under some absurd Tax Rates i am sure they will come up with a renaissance of the State Lotterys and Oddset (State Sports Book) to fill the Gap.

I would bet my House on it that German Gamblers will get crappy Odds, no Market diversity, and basicaly no nothing. (Thats what Oddset was famous for :) ).

My Personal hope is that Betfair will at least accept my Bets over the Phone if not over the Internet.

That should be possible given the Situation..... i mean Betfair is licensed and regulated by the UK Gambling Commission,... and England still exists now doesnt it, FFS.

Its not as if we are dealing with some shady Backstreet Bookie from Downtown Honk Kong.


This is all very frustrating.

very interesting Anna and made me laugh too. 

Anna1943,
Betfair moved to a Gibraltar licence on 9th March.
I think that means if you have a complaint about Betfair you would have to pursue it with the Gibralter Regulatory Authority not the UK Gambling Commission.

surely a massive tax on profits will lead to much less betting, and therefore less tax income, unless most of the money is already going to foreign operators. In that case, it can make sense for them to 'kill off' gambling like this.

Gambling has been lumped in with stuff like cigarettes. You cant buy cigarettes over the internet from Spain and save a fortune. The only reason for this is the tax. The single economic area is a sham.

As has been said the slots which are physically present in German have been relaxed, its nothing about gambling or criminality just the tax take.

Hi all,

After following this thread with attention (even the German comments) I think that the last post by Brendan is what really matters. Spain has also passed a law last week with the intent to regulate betting and make as much money out of it as possible.

But the theory of the EU is that individuals should be able to buy services and products from any member state with no limitations. Although we have (and we still do) enjoyed a nice time in that sense I start to feel like if the different national governments wanted to set themselves apart from a such ideal unified approach.

Betting (which by the way is no different from speculating with Futures referenced to arbitrary Indexes, like the FTSE, DAX, IBE and others) is seen as a potential source of revenue and the politicians need to squeeze every source to try to maintain their privileges (and that will only happen as long as the budget is large enough)

Anyhow, thhe most ridiculous thing is trying to restrict the number of bookies to 7. They could also consider that all Kebab shops in Germany should belong to a maximum of 7 different distribution companies. Why not? Kebabs also generate addiction and everyone knows that: "Dönner macht schöner" (A Dönner makes you nicer - implying your belly will grow and grow) but Kebab shops are not taxed on 16.5% of revenue, but on profit (just like any regular business)

I really feel disappointed and may consider a move to the other side of the Zugspitze.

Awful news for Croatians, referees and St. Pauli players!

Anna1943, I am amazed that German laws covering gambling are such a mess. I thought that the German legal system was based on judges defining precisely what is permitted and forbidden according to the exact wording of every law.

In England, which relies on common law, and where judges make rulings according to precedent and circumstances, we would be quite happy with an ancient set of contradictory laws. An independent judiciary would decide how they should be applied if the Government or an individual wished to use them to clamp down on gambling.

But in Germany, as I understand its legal system, such a relaxed approach should be impossible; which, I suppose, makes it tempting for politicians to tidy up the statute book for its own purposes.

I remember visiting a bookmakers in Bremen where they had British racing on TV. I backed a horse ew and when it finished 3rd I went to collect and found out that ew terms for ALL races with 8 or more runners were 1/7 odds places 1-2-3 (1/8 if the fav is odds on!)

And we complain on here!!!