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29 Jan 11 19:19
Date Joined: 28 Nov 08
| Topic/replies: 234 | Blogger: lochar's blog
Is it worth spending money on the likes of "bettrader"or"betangel" to make a profit on here
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Report Malcolm January 29, 2011 11:47 PM GMT
Use the Geek's Toy instead. Will still enable the profits, if you can do the trading, with the benefit of it being free. (and very good!)
Report BobSievier January 30, 2011 9:30 AM GMT
Gruss is £60 a year and excellent .
Report The_Ocho January 30, 2011 12:14 PM GMT
The Geeks toy is free and very good and doesn't cost 60 pounds a year.
Report The_Ocho January 30, 2011 12:16 PM GMT
It also helps if you know how to trade.

I would recommend starting small - like using the betfair minimum until you get the hang of it.

And practice, practice, practice!!!
Report BobSievier January 30, 2011 5:38 PM GMT
The Geeks Toys is free but doesn't have a multiple stake (8) betting box when using the grid , major pain adjusting stakes , Gruss worth every penny.
Report Lori January 30, 2011 10:17 PM GMT
Never seen the need myself.
Report Amberblack January 31, 2011 2:23 PM GMT
If you're looking for a fast, reliable software, loaded with customisable features go for the Geeks Toy.

In racing terms, Bettrader is an exceptionally poor selling plater with a paddock value of zero. Do yourself a favour and avoid these clowns.
Report jimmy69 January 31, 2011 2:25 PM GMT
Why do you need all these add ons? Don't you have a brain of your own?....LaughLaugh
Report Rocket to the FACE January 31, 2011 5:28 PM GMT
They really do help when speed is important.
Report Des February 1, 2011 11:28 AM GMT
I find they help even though I'm slow Laugh
Report Coachbuster February 1, 2011 12:58 PM GMT
nothing is quicker than the brain for decision making
Report Des February 1, 2011 4:06 PM GMT
It's after the brain makes the decision that they say say it's quicker
Report egner February 1, 2011 4:07 PM GMT
...fairbot for it......

....has dutching as well for when i do the US horses or am too lazy to tradeLaughLaughLaughLaugh[;)]
Report duncan idaho February 1, 2011 4:24 PM GMT
algorithms working well egner?!
Report egner February 1, 2011 7:18 PM GMT

hello duncan........yes........maths rules....yepLaugh[;)]
Report duncan idaho February 2, 2011 8:36 AM GMT
Glad to hear it....yep
Report FINE AS FROG HAIR February 2, 2011 9:20 AM GMT
Nothing wrong with a nice piece of algorithm every now and then.
Very tasty.
Report Yifu February 2, 2011 7:23 PM GMT
Tried all the apps available, the free one is definately the fastest.
I suggest you take some free trials, and watch loads of markets, get the hang of trading using small stakes, and first see IF you can produce a consistent profit...
Report Des February 3, 2011 8:51 AM GMT
So the fastest is best, yes?
Report hgodden1 February 3, 2011 1:31 PM GMT
Fastest isnt always best. It all depends on how you're trading and what you need the software for. Best thing to do if you're new is just to experiment with them and see what you like as some programs suit some people more than others. The toy is free and the others have very cheap offers (some of them do, at least) so just give them a go and see what you like.
Report FINE AS FROG HAIR February 3, 2011 1:33 PM GMT
Fastest might simply result in the fastest way to the poor house.
Report hgodden1 February 3, 2011 1:35 PM GMT

I dont use the toy much so I could be wrong but I think you can change it so you have multiple stake boxes. Pretty much everything on there is customisable, though if you're lazy like me you'll probably just keep forking out for what you already know lol
Report Amberblack February 4, 2011 5:58 PM GMT
Whichever one you opt for lochar, tread carefully until you're familiar with it.
Report Des February 5, 2011 10:30 AM GMT
Amberblack, if you need to tread carefully it must be better to start at the cheapest first. There's little point in paying £150 odd then not using it fully don't you think?
Report Amberblack February 5, 2011 11:21 AM GMT
Couldn't agree more Des. I blew several banks at the outset with the added expense of a subscription fee to boot (pre Geeks Toy).

The common misconception when something is free, is that it must be inferior. Certainly not the case with trading software.

Traders have never had it so good [;)]
Report Mr.Spleem February 5, 2011 2:38 PM GMT
I'd just like to correct a mistake made above. Geeks's Toy allows for multi-staking boxes as does the Gruss Betting Assistant.

Both are excellent and Gruss allows for automated trading too as it is integrated with Microsoft Excel. I recommend both wholeheartedly as all forms of trading are possible if using both of them for only £6 per month.

Certainly one would have to be daft to pay nearly £16 for products which are nowhere near as good.

If you really want to spend as much as £16, use BetAngel, also integrated with Excel. Not much reason to use the expensive Bettrader. It's a browser based software and stops working when browsers are updated. Think they have problems with Chrome now and people have to use Firefox. God knows what they will have to use next week !
Report Mr.Spleem February 5, 2011 3:04 PM GMT
Just visited the Evolution forum. Earliest promised date of fix for software is next Thursday. Also, on another thread it seems the training mode is unrealistic. I don't expect people will get a refund for periods when it doesn't work ?
Report Des February 7, 2011 10:26 AM GMT
Mr Spleem, How can they charge for Evolution when it fails when a browser is updated? Does it work with the most common browser IE?
Report Mr.Spleem February 7, 2011 11:11 AM GMT
I don't know how they get away with it. I suppose they can argue that Firefox still works so they have no problems keeping people's money.

Their software doesn't work with Internet Explorer and I don't think it ever has. There are lots of stand-alone software out there which are stable so it's not a problem. Anybody can use Geeks Toy for free while they are sorting Evolution out so nobody really need miss out. The reality is, however, that people may decide to stick with The Toy after they've tried it. Crazy way of running a business but I suppose they know what they are doing.

I never have any problems with Gruss Betting Assistant or Geeks Toy.
Report Mr.Spleem February 7, 2011 11:26 AM GMT
It seems they have sorted things out as this has appeared on the Evolution forum. No more problems [:(]


We are testing a release today, we should be able to push this out this
afternoon if all is well.
Report Mums Irish Stew February 7, 2011 7:54 PM GMT
Interesting debate here. Must stick up for evolution - £9.99 Per month and excellent piece of kit for trading. Not complicated and although it may lack bet angels advanced dutching / book making/ tennis trader/ soccer mystic etc, if you are only interested in trading, I do recommend it.
Must admit not tried Geeks toy or Gruss so I cannot compare but satisfied customer here.
Report Mr.Spleem February 7, 2011 9:09 PM GMT
You must have some sort of special offer as its normal price is more than £ 9.99. Certainly it's simple, problem is it tends to stop working quite often, as it has just done. There are complaints on their forum that it doesn't work properly on Firefox now. Which browser are you using ?

You really should try the others as they certainly appear to be more reliable but, of course, if you're happy, stick with it.
Report Trevh February 7, 2011 9:46 PM GMT
I use Gruss for £6/mnth, highly recommend it, especially if you like to have multiple markets open at once, I often have 10 to 20 open and switching between them takes half a second, imagine trying to do that on the BF website. That's basically the only reason I use software, it takes away all the waiting of pages to load.

If I was starting again now, I would look at Geeks Toy first, if it does everything that the others do then that's the obvious choice.
Report Mr.Spleem February 7, 2011 9:57 PM GMT
Yes, you're right. It was a nightmare trying to trade on more than one market on the Betfair site and it has to be said that all the software types are better than that used to be.
Report Mums Irish Stew February 7, 2011 11:38 PM GMT
I use it through chrome. Nothing on tonight so unaware of any fault. I signed up through Betfair @ £9.99 and my repeat payment has always been this amount. But yes you are right I should give the others a try. Trying Geeks Toy this weekend and will happily stand corrected. Good luck with your betting.
Report Des February 8, 2011 9:05 AM GMT
I still can't understand why Evo doesn't run in Internet Explorer, obvious;y something technical. Using a browser though will always leave you open to changes in the browser or failure whereas a stand alone program is reliant on itself.
Report Mr.Spleem February 8, 2011 9:34 AM GMT
Gruss Betting Assistant is as simple or complicated as you want it to be. The use of Excel may be beyond you initially but the ease of jumping between markets will be a big bonus. Open a new page for each market and move from one to another with one click.

Evolution, is simple, when it's working, but there's hardly any way of altering it to suit your taste.

Make sure that you go slowly when you use The Toy. The degree of customisation possible can make it confusing initially. Just use it as it comes, read the manual and you will have a lot of fun making it as you want it to be.

I will not go on about my own preferences again as I am not carrying a torch or on a crusade for any of them. When you try them all, the decision as to which to use will be obvious to you.

Best of luck !
Report Mums Irish Stew February 8, 2011 5:53 PM GMT
Mr Spleem, Thanks for that. I will trade minimum stakes and play around.
Can I just say that when I attended a betfair API course last year the Centaur guys taking it advised that all software with the license is the same speed, there is no licence to quicken it. They gave a technical explanation that was beyond me. They mainly use Evolution hence I gave it a try. Thanks again for your advice.
Report Mr.Spleem February 8, 2011 9:10 PM GMT
Just because Centaur use the software doesn't mean that it is the best. The speed of placing bets on Betfair is a different thing to making data requests to obtain current prices. For requests, all software is limited and Centaur would be correct if they were referring to this. The placing of bets, the calculations relating to hedging, etc., depend on the coding of the software. So, we are left in a position where some are quicker than others. Try for yourself and you will see that there are meaningful differences in the speeds of applications.

Centaur say on their website that they use a software called Xpress Trader. I spoke at length with one of their staff as I was very interested in acquiring it if it was any good. He confirmed that it was Evolution under a different name so I did not pursue the matter.
Report Mums Irish Stew February 8, 2011 10:53 PM GMT
Interesting - thanks again. Yes Xpress trader was being released just after the course and is Centaurs own product. They did advise it replicated evolution and in fairness they didn't push it. I have just downloaded Geeks and at first sight it lacks user friendly qualities but I will be patient and go through the manual.
Report Des February 9, 2011 10:32 AM GMT
Seems like Centaur and Evolution are quite friendly.
Report Amberblack February 9, 2011 11:40 AM GMT
Could they be in bed together? Is it really that black & white?
Report Mr.Spleem February 9, 2011 2:27 PM GMT
They are like two peas in a pod because they are exactly the same product.
Report Des February 10, 2011 10:57 AM GMT
So I guess if one isn't very good the other can't be
Report bringbacksirclive February 10, 2011 4:35 PM GMT
Trading software allows you to get in and out of the market far quicker than if you just used the betfair website. Its not really going to be possible for random people to tell you whether you need it or not as it completely depends on how you use betfair.

If you want to try it though you may as well use the toy. The bottom line is its free. If you do anything other than manual trading (dutching, making a book, excel etc) then yes you are going to have to look at other prgorammes that do what you want them to do. The fact that you are unsure if you need software leads me to believe you don;t need anything complicated so I am guessing the toy will do everything you need it to.
As for which software is best, I have used them all and they all do pretty much similar things. The bottom line is it depends how you trade? If you want bells and whistles and excel integration etc then go look at betangel and gruss. Personally I use the toy but I have previously used betangel, bettrader, evolution and have tried gruss. They all work although personally I avoid evolution as I don;t like the browser setup. The bottom line is the user. I can fire up any of them any reliably make money on all of them but I have had a few years experience and believe me its not easy! No software will make you make money! I like the fleibility of the toy and of course I am tight so anything which lowers my personal costs gets a thumbs up from me.
Report Birchola February 10, 2011 4:43 PM GMT
Ive tried a few of them and found Bet Trader Evo to be the best.  Wouldn't trade without it now.  Essential if you're making multiple trades per match in a fast moving event such as tennis.
Report Des February 11, 2011 8:44 AM GMT
Birchola, someone said Evo stopped working last week because Chrome changed. That can't be good can it?
Report Moonshiner February 12, 2011 12:30 PM GMT
Birchola, do you mean Evo is essential for multiple trades? Or am I reading it wrong? Thought all of them could do that.
Report Mr.Spleem February 13, 2011 11:21 AM GMT
I don't think anybody can really comment on the relevant merits of the different types of trading software without having tried them. I have tried almost all of them and have found Evolution to be unstable and unreliable. Just check on the Racing Traders forum and you can see loads of complaints about it over its existence. Being browser based, it's bound to be open to problems which arise when that browser software is changed.

Somebody who has never tried anything else will obviously think it's good.
Report Des February 14, 2011 9:15 AM GMT
Evo does seem to be advertised alot. Obviously it can't stand by recommendation only unlike others
Report Des February 15, 2011 12:26 PM GMT
Evo does make big claims in it's ads
Report Amberblack February 16, 2011 10:25 AM GMT
Claims that can't be substantiated either Des.
Report Des February 17, 2011 1:55 PM GMT
How can they get away with it then, aren't they covered buy the advertising authorities?
Report Amberblack February 17, 2011 5:51 PM GMT
There's a thread on the Traders Exchange section of the Geeks forum, whereby the Advertising Standards Authority are casting their net further to cover websites from the 1st of March.
Report Des February 18, 2011 11:22 AM GMT
So presumably they have to reel some of their outstanding claims in then, I remember that video that claimed you could cancel a bet as soon as a goal was scored during an in play match !!
Report Amberblack February 19, 2011 11:52 AM GMT
That video couldn't have been more fictitious if it began with the words "Once upon a time in a park far away"
Report altobelli February 19, 2011 6:45 PM GMT
Im thinking of getting a mac. Can i use these trading platforms ok on a mac or would i be better getting a cheap laptop solely for betfair trading??
Report Amberblack February 22, 2011 9:37 AM GMT
Personally altobelli, I'd invest in a laptop as there's a far greater choice of trading applications.
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