Funds Required for a 'professional gambler'

Funds Required for a 'professional gambler'
_________________

Find your own money

Use somebody else's money and share if you win and don't share if you lose.

In answer to the question , i don't think theres an answer ,it depends on the system , sport etc ... i would say upwards of 5k should get you kick starting your way  to a modest income ,enough to ward off the bailiffs anyway [;)]

If that doesn't work, buy a dog 

No FAFH, yours are not naive, just inquisitive. Nothing
wrong with that.

Not naive, far from it. I am well aware of what's possible from bots, trading etc but for bettors taking prematch positions to let run, it's virtually impossible to do more than 10% whilst maintaining any worthwhile turnover and that is fact.

No it's not a fact Scrooge.
It's only your opinion, unless you know how everybody goes about their betting.

System working - send more money

Lots of problems with the original post

FINE AS FROG HAIR
Date Joined: 12 Mar 07 Add contact When: 17 Jan 11 22:56 No it's not a fact Scrooge.
It's only your opinion, unless you know how everybody goes about their betting.

Funny I'm being doubted by the guy who failed to understand or believe how much bots can make and which was clearly obvious.

I suppose when I say fact that is a big claim but by that I mean that a much greater return than 10% is virtually impossible. You ask all the top sports gamblers how much they think is possible even with their huge banks. If you analyse the data from the main sports over a year (ones with enough liquidity to make it worthwhile), the odds aren't out by enough to make more than this. There are only a few thousand records there and so there's not enough potential there.

Many won't take a professional approach and will simply overstake on some selections. This may work for a while and will lead people to think they can do better than 10% but if your hoping to turnover anything decent you will come unstuck, trust me.

Anyone, make more than 10% taking a position betting pre-event with over 500 bets per year? Nah didn't think so, keep deluding yourselves guys ;)

I've never hit as high as 10 , maybe 8 at one time .... i'm finding the % gets lower with a larger bank .

That's very goog going Coachbuster. The point I'm making in case anyone thinks I'm being cynical is that to make sustainable profits that would deem as sole income you need a much bigger bank than you think. That said, great short term returns can still be made with a variety of other approaches and sometimes a lot of luck!

That's very goog going Coachbuster. The point I'm making in case anyone thinks I'm being cynical is that to make sustainable profits that would deem as sole income you need a much bigger bank than you think. That said, great short term returns can still be made with a variety of other approaches and sometimes a lot of luck!

Hello there scrooge. If you have a modest fund and you want to make some kind of living from it you would have to make that money work as hard as possible. Placing 1 and a 1/3 bets a day of £200 means that on average you've got £9700-9800 just sitting in your account each day doing nothing. This money has to be worked in other some way. For a modest bank your best bet(excuse the term) is to have a variety of methods each making a profit that work your bank a bit harder.

If you are simply stating that it's hard to make a living placing 1 and a 1/3 £200 bets per day then i'm sure that there will be many others that agree with you.

2500 should be enough,but it depends on how much you want to make,and how hard you want to work and the level of knowledge you possess.

Pro gamblers  so you want to be a pro
To win a wage have to bet a wage  the average wage today is £300 .
So lets start from there bet £300 a bet , a 5k bank  you can have 16 bets  a 10k bank you can have  33 bets  and so on  but if you dont know what your on about   a million pound bank wont save you  .. ok it will last a bit longer  .. but you will do your brains thats if you have a brain . zipper

Not sure if it's relevant or helpful, but certain that some on here will rubbish anything that's said, I can say that more than fifteen years ago I met a professional punter on course. He was prepared to help me.
After some questions, he told then that I wouldn't make it; I would need a betting bank of £150K and NO major commitments ( eg mortgage, family, job).
Now I think he was right to say that.

Years later, I met another "pro punter" on course. It looked like he'd inherited and sold the family farm to go fulltime punting on course. He told me he loved it even though the best he did was 4% profit. He reckoned anybody claiming to be making more than 10% on course was "a fkn liar".

Both these guys are not to be seen much on course nowadays. When I've bumped into either, I'm told that overheads ( mostly the travel) are too much, but they do bet a bit from home.

I fully expect the betfr players to have totally different stories, so you'll have to make up your own mind.

A buffer of around 30-40k would be about where I'd aim, though if you are confident in your ability and have proven it over time to lesser stakes maybe, then maybe you would be OK on less than that.

After all if you are winning money the pot ain't going down is it!! The thing is to have enough to tide you over any particular barren runs, but you'd obviously need the right discipline not to chase in these circumstances anyhow.

zipper, who is your script writer ?

Assume for a moment that 10% return on stakes is top-line expectation for a straight backer betting on the horses.

Assume 1000 bets and assume 2% commission. Ignore PC for the moment.

What are the chances that you will average around 10% after commission?

Well, it does depend on your MO regarding strike rate but let's take 2 strategies a) averages 50% and b) averages 20% win %.

Take 50 different punters on a) and you will find that one will make maybe around 14% and another will lose 2.5%. The majority (2/3) will be in the range 11-5%, with rest spread between the two extremes.

Take 50 punters on b) and you will find that one will make maybe 22%+ and another will lose as much as 15% with 2/3 in the range 1-15%.

Of course, it will not be a smooth line in every case with most having a bid dipper of an experience going into and out of loss.After 500 bets and you find yourself losing, it takes a hell of a lot of self-belief that what you are doing is going to work in the end.

Good luck; whatever your bank size its the ups and downs and the uncertainty that it will work out profitably that will test you.

Coachbuster
Date Joined: 08 Apr 06
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When: 18 Jan 11 11:22
I've never hit as high as 10 , maybe 8 at one time .... i'm finding the % gets lower with a larger bank .


Yep profit on turnover (bet volume) went from a high of 18.31% in 2007 to 0.41% in 2010 and I expect it to decrease further.

My bet volume was £5.8k in 2007 and £13.5M in 2010.

How much did you turnover in 2010 Investor?

Sorry i meant to ask how you calculated turnover in 2010 with you using books which you hadn't in previous years.

buzzer, this is only counting betfair activity.
I use 'bet volume' as turnover.

In 2010, I turned over an additional £120k with traditional bookies and a little bit with purple. As I lost roughly £4k outside of Betfair in that year, my profit on turnover overall (not just betfair) would even be slightly lower than the 0.41% mentioned.

Thanks for the reply. I have to admit i struggle to calculate turnover, perhaps i'm just thick , due to the variety in my betting. i.e certain markets are used for tic trading, offsetting and straight betting plus other exchanges and books are used, well only really two these days, plus people calculate turnover in different ways as i saw when i started a thread on here.

Investor, i guess it would  be more relevant if i also mentioned  my overall bank increases on average to the tune of 4% each week (pre charges). That figure was 7% 12 mths ago (100% lower bank )  and 2 years ago it briefly hit 10 %  (lower bank still).

5K is more than enough to make a reasonable living on here.

cont Investor,
That's using as much  of my bank each event (if i can get matched )
Low-Medium risk.
Strategic betting (placing bets at various points of the game  using  the opportunity to green out late on if the odds are looking favourable )
(some trading as well on illiquid markets)

300 days with an average of 12 dog races per day. Max liability £20 per race.


300 x 12 x 20 = £72,000  t/o

Profit £10,000.
It's less than minimum wage but I'm my own boss.

Not great admittedly but you don't need £1,000's to make it pay.

This year hopefully make more.

To  Kenilworth ....Hi Kenny  I dont have a script writer but what i do have is 50 years experience in the gambling game , and believe me its the toughest game in the world .. it tames Lions

Yes buzzer, it's tricky when people use different ways of working it out. Some people say you should add liability for each bet, but I don't think that makes too much sense. If you back £2 at 1000 and lay £20 at 80, bet volume has increased by £22. If you looked at the stake for these two bets separately, you would be risking £2 on the first, and £20x79 on the second. Using actual max. liability per market would be a good metric, but this is really tricky to work out unless you use an automated tool.

Coach, I guess you mean your bank increases mentioned are per month rather than per week?

Investor no ,per week ....i don't operate with a huge bank .

I'm finding so far increasing stakes is fairly counter productive , i doubled late on last year and so far ,the extra capital isn't yielding much at all .

Early days yet .

Coachbuster do u lay correct scores for a living?

each £1000 generates  £ 40  pre charge  p/w

new doubled bank  (last 8 weeks or so )
each £1000 generates  £ 20  pre charge  p/w

so no change in overall profits

Obviously i haven't sat down with a calculator , but they are to the nearest pound or so .

Again, I don't know if it's pertinent to what the questioner wants, but we have to remember expenses and overheads. Many people who have never run a business have no idea about these and thus make no allowance.

OK, this is btfr forumland, so different rules probably apply, but most normal folk have to eat and drink and live someplace.

Beware of guys who chat about being full-time pro-punters, and, then, on other fora, state how well there huge financial and property investments are doing.

They ain't subsisting totally on draw-downs from the bookies or the Exchanges, imo.
If your question is serious, you need to consider the full picture.

Does anyone have experience of, or an opinion on 'skimming' the bank?

For example, if the bank has increased in the short term by a greater than expected rate (i.e. the rate expected in the long term) would it be prudent to cream off some of the winnings and place them in safer but lower return investments?

Sean Rua makes a very, very important point in all this.
To be a professional gambler you need not only a dedicated betting bank but also a bank you can draw on for normal living expenses.
Whilst the first bank may or may not be quantifiable by the type of betting you are undertaking eg medium/long term positional or short term trading punting, the second bank will depend entirely on your individual needs and requirements eg do you have family commitments,children a fee paying schools, do you have other personal or business debt to service, mortgages and/or credit cards outstanding, do you have another source of income, do you have health issues and expenses , DO YOU HAVE AN EXPENSIVE WIFE, do you want to take nice, long holidays in the sun etc etc.
The whole thing has to be looked in a comprehensive manner, not just how much money do I need in BF or with other bookies to make your bets.

top2 rated
I would certainly at least advise against upping the ante if you are sure that the increase is not normal and can be expected reasonably to reverse itself to a degree. So sure take it out and use it more conservatively elsewhere. Why not ?

i think when you start out in any business you have to put things like holidays and expensive wives  on the back burner

Coach
You obviously don't have and/or never have had an expensive wife.

best avoided imo 

Thanks for the replies guys. It's good to get a realistic insight into how people make it pay for a change but inspirational at the same time because it can be done. I actually make a bit of money now I use larger but regular stakes. Whhen I first came on here I was admittedly a 'mug' and thought it was possible to turn a very small amount into bundles of cash very easily and by amalysing what sort of returns are realistic I can now bet for fun for little money without wasting my time dreaming about making huge sums. I simply don't have the funds available to ever make a living on here, even if I have enough skill and faith. Quite refreshing for me actually and I think this bit of realism would beenfit a few more than just me on here.

Regarding make a living, even with enough funds at your disposable I think the uncertainty factor can be huge for most people and is a good point. Even with a proven historical mathematical edge, a decent sized losing streak and you can start to question whether the edge still exists. Good luck all.

500 k min

to zipper, I've been in the game a long time too, maybe not
as long as you, but I will if I live long enough. I've also
seen it from both sides of the counter and being behind it
is easier than the front, it also tells you what you shouldn't
be doing. Anyway, doing it for fun, but taking it seriously
as always, and hate losing still. One other thing, experience
is fine but it's not everything, as some people are quick
learners. GL.

Kenny  thanks for your reply  its good to talk  zip has never been behind a counter   take it you worked in bookies office /. nowt wrong with that  but you aint putting your own money at risk
zip stood on the box , on the joint with my own opinions and my money .Re  quick learners  not in this game ..show me  just one .. pals of mine have been in this game  60 years  plus and they are still learning .....same as me .

Talking from recent experience, there is no easy answer to how much funds you will need as it is all based on your personal circumstances.  It all depends on how you bet, how much profit you make per year and how consistent your returns are.  The plan I followed was to quit my job once I had increased my betting bank to 4x my annual salary.  This was with the knowledge that I usually double/triple my betting bank each year.  1/4 was to be used as my main betting bank, a 1/4 was put aside as a reserve bank (just in case it went pear shaped) and I could try again. A 1/4 to cover mortage/living expenses for a year and the last 1/4 to cover not working the following year (if again everything went pear shaped and I had to start looking for a new job).  The most important part being it took me perhaps 3-4 years doing this in my spare time to finally get to my desired bank size.  Patience/timing is often overlooked.  One other consideration, when you are doing this full-time you will probably do even better as you will have more time to research/think of new strategies, build up knowledge faster etc.  I prefer the cautionary slow walk as opposed to a heart stopping sprint!  I know I would be in a much better position now if I were less risk averse but then I don't think I could have dealt with the long losing runs at uncomfortable stake sizes (as a position taker).

Hello there Zipper. For some strange reason I always think of Duff-Man from the Simpsons when reading your posts. I think it's because he is the only other person/character that I can think of that refers to himself in the 3rd person and i'm sure sometimes you write in the same way that he speaks. I know maybe it's just me and i'm a bit weird, but is it possible that on occasion you may refer to yourself as Zip-Man. I would enjoy that tremendously.

Many thanks.

U.A.,  Ok just for your enjoyment .. zipper his here in person ..feel better now

THe Mgt
Let me guess.
You're guy 1).
See I am astute after all.

cracking detective work that, UA...zipper is indeed Duff-man...he was outed a couple of months back.

duncan care to explain ..zipper .

2) 42 years of age, married, 2 children that are approaching university age, mortgage still being paid, very securely employed with 15 years service, currently earning £60k + bonus + car, final salary pension scheme, etc. etc (you get the picture).

What this doesn't explain is that this guy works 60-70 hours per week, travels around the country/world, is bored stupid with what he does and never gets to see his kids grow up and spend quality time with his wife.

FWIW, I'd much rather be bloke number 2 giving it a go than number 1 as at that age you have experience on your side and a broader outlook on most things.

Management , most of my mates are around the 40 area ,and none of them earn remotely close to 60k  ,none earn 40k , a sprinkling earn 30+ ...most, i would say are in the 18-25p/a  bracket

Most are married,all have mortgages ,most  have children of around 10 -16  ... few have been in the same job for 15 years , and even fewer attended Uni ,it wasn't the done thing back then .

So i would say most pro's would normally fall into fairly average backgrounds .

marky sparky  slow down son  you will have a blood rush
zip read your post and for what its worth  I agree 100%
these guys  come on here  they  have a  day job ....60k  run a car .. pension scheme  and all that jazz ..
here are the numbers  60k  80k  150k 200k  per year  you  look at them numbers  greedy eyes  its a mans thing .. IF  and I mean  If  you can make 9.5%.. you have no worries  and tell your bank manager  to stick it , its a walk in the park   . how good are you ?  it aint  nowt to do with bank managers   or anyone else  at the end of the day its down to you

or East

You must be in Londres

The Management ..Its grim up North .. thats why the Romans stopped at York .

The  Management , and Coachbuster  lets have a bit of fun  at Kempton  to night  7 races  at Kempton   5.00  till 8.00  we all start with  40 grand  yes 40k  lets not piss about .
the rules are   there aint no rules .. we each start with  40K  you on zips in

The Manager  Thats My Boy  ..Lets go for it  ..after all its only 40 grand  If Shane  has  any input the more the merry

The Manager zip  knows your no mug  give me your best shot  win lose or draw  your the man

zipper, i won't touch anything with four legs 

5.00 kempton  5 runners  so win and place is out of it   so 3k on Majuro  ok its a claimer  but its not weak  zips on

Round one to  the zipper,  The Manager  was a No Show  . come on son  take the zipper on

i hope this shows  you  wanna be gamblers  how it is , so zip horse won at 7/4  3 k on the nose  =£5250  so far

If  this tread turns out to be the zipper  show  zip will be out

Coachbuster
Date Joined: 08 Apr 06
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When: 19 Jan 11 16:01
Management , most of my mates are around the 40 area ,and none of them earn remotely close to 60k  Shocked,none earn 40k , a sprinkling earn 30+ ...most, i would say are in the 18-25p/a  bracket

Most are married,all have mortgages ,most  have children of around 10 -16  ... few have been in the same job for 15 years , and even fewer attended Uni ,it wasn't the done thing back then .


I remember reading somewhere that you tend to earn roughly the same as the people you associate with. Get some new friends

Coachbuster  you would not touch any thing  with four legs  what are you doing on here .. most horses have  four legs

Not the ones he bets on

Lori

Come on you Guys  put up  lets see what you got  i know it aftertime but my bet  in the 5.30 was the form horse Gallantry   the best horse  won .. if you dont  go with that  .. hard luck  .. come on you  form guys

Manager  zip agrees with your win and place  bets   ok i know it won cause i backed it Gallantry.. but your 2 on the nose 18.20 and 19.00  zip is a layer  big time  ..its all opinions  good luck

Manager  6.30  your tip  Acclamatory  zip lays 4 k  thats 4 k to me  price dont matter  till we settle

Wowsers!

zipper, no you misunderstand. I didn't work behind the counter, I was
an Independent bookmaker for 23 years, then 4 years on course before
quitting all together.

The Manager  lets talk english   if you say your 10 grand in front    i beleive you  no room in my world for lies  go so it  my man .  but it aint  over yet

I thought it was only MUGS who bet in every race

Manager  so your 17 k up deal or no deal  the pnone rings  zip says  8 k ..on your other  2 bets  deal or no deal

is it true that there are some systems out there that give pro gambles a 3 sec advantage ????

jimmmy 69 , pros bet in ever race  were we can make a profit   some days 2 bets and 2 lays   some days 4 lays  some days  no lays or bets.. that  how it is . i have no prob if i had 4 win bets tomorrow and 3 lays  and the day after  i only have one cert  no lays

The Management.. re your 6.30 Mr nice guy is as staight as a yodler's walking stick.Live & learn.Zips out now..... the nurse has arrived & my lovely wife has Dinner ready.

The Manager zip has to answer this guy.... Scotweld
Scotweld  zip here,   hi Scot  there aint no systems  trust me  . ok its  a  bore but the form book is the only way .. forget systerms
take this  7.30 the form book says its wide open  but ever race has to have winner   and  its a 10 horse race  so 9 have to lose  ..Lay Aqua Vitae

Scotweld   this 8.00 the form book say  Yakama  will not be far away   forget the price   about 7/1  the horse dont know hes  7/1

Manager  win lose or draw  its been a good game from you ..
8.00  Yakama 1k win 6 k place  good night .. talk again

be much better off arbing off a 10k bank , pointless gambling for a lesser return .

unless of course youre one of those macho guys who think arbing is for people with no kahoonas hoohoo

What return would you expect to get consistently from arbing off a 10 K bank ?
And why only a 10 K bank ? Pure arbing is risk free isn't it, apart from the momentary time gap between getting your 2 offsetting wagers on ?

Kelly
No arbing is for " smart " people with no kahoonas.

kenilworth :
I didn't work behind the counter, I was
an Independent bookmaker for 23 years, then 4 years on course before
quitting all together.

How come you quit Kenilworth, the age of online gambling and BF?

Anyone else surprised to hear that K was a bookie for 27 years ?
Don't really know why I'm so surprised, but I am.
Just goes to show we know sweet FA about whom we're discoursing with on here.

To Trevh, technology was escalating and it was becoming too
potentially too expensive trying to compete with the big boys,
nor did I the appetite for it anynmore, so I took the money
and ran !! Bought some racecourse pitches, enjoyed going out,
but very hard to win and after 4 years quit that. It was the
right time, and never regretted it. Still young enough to
enjoy my life.

Frog, I wasn't suprised because he does sound very much on the ball, just curious that's all, I can imagine on course bookie is a difficult position to handle.

I suppose he just sounds too orthodox to me.
Nothing wrong with that of course.
Just not my mental image of a bookie, current or retired.

Bookies are just accountants aren't they? Nobody more orthodox than them

Nice one Kenilworth, you're never too old to enjoy yourself, I know a guy who's 82 and lives like a 40 year old lol.

Hugh Hefner?

I thought it was common knowledge that I was an ex bookmaker.
Was a great game in the eighties, made so much money...

And I know others vice versa.

K
Bookies have always seemed slightly dodgy to me, bit like real estate agents and car salesmen are.
You don't sound dpdgy at all.

That is a reputation that goes back many, many years
and I wonder how many times I have heard ''You never
see a bookie riding a bike'' which used to annoy, especially
in later years when the game was getting really tough.
Too much competition  nowadays for the leisure pound.