Vote to scrap VAR

We used to as well but then there was always moaning about wrong decisions.

As I've said, the biggest issue with VAR is that it's used way too often instead of what it was supposed to do which was to eliminate the "clear & obvious" errors.

1 unsuccessful challenge per team per match = hardly any VAR

Joined: 15 Jan 02 | Topic/replies: 13,503 | Blogger: Hayden's blog
Saw this thread by accident as meant to enter horse racing , however one question from someone ignorant who never watches or follows soccer.....

We have offside in our sport ( Ice Hockey ) and it's quite often referred to video replay but i've never seen or read about any controversy regarding the outcome as it's all an exact science , so what makes soccer any different ?
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Because you can have definitive offside where is player is offside
if even by 1mm,and subjective offside where somebody
needs to decide if somebody in an offside position is impacting upon play.

Being in an offside position is not in itself
actually being offside... You need to be "active" to
be offside, and that's sometimes debatable...

Thanks yhtl for pointing out the distinction between the two   

I don't follow cricket Wes so thanks for the insight.

I've said many times on here that if they cannot see it is clear offside that can be easily viewed, then it isn't offside. How hard is that?

If ANY part of the body is onside then it's onside... that could work too, rather than a "part" of the body offside.

Aye.

If they're having to draw lines then it can't be "clear & obvious".

That's the biggest gripe.

offside isnt anything to do with clear and obvious, those with the tech say its a matter of fact, yrs of VAR and you havent a fooking scooby

Another issue is the linesman's flag. If the linesman is adamant it is offside then raise your flag; if it is tight then don't and let VAR (if it continues) do the rest.

Yeah offside doesn't have to be clear and obvious
as in they are in offside position or not.

The interfering with play is where clear and obvious
impacts offside.... But that's a minefield.

This vote should be by the fans not the 20 clubs.certain clubs are in favour of VAR for whatever reason.

May 16, 2024 -- 2:48PM, Aspro wrote:

If ANY part of the body is onside then it's onside... that could work too, rather than a "part" of the body offside.

This is what has made sense to me forever. Makes for more goals and is still a very fair and good law !

The BS thing about the figures they release to show how "correct" decisions have increased would have incidents like arguable handballs and fouls in the box that otherwise have been overlooked with no real complaints, now being highlighted as correct decisions that VAR gets credit for...total bollox

So 20 Premier League teams. Well surely 11 is a majority, yes. 11 vote against keeping VAR = bye bye VAR.
Can I ask how many votes does Manchester City have?

How many votes are needed for change?
Premier League rules state that any rule changes need a two-thirds majority, meaning 14 out of the 20 clubs need to vote in favour of scrapping VAR.

If pushed I'd vote for it to stay but...the handball situation that gets sent to VAR to see if it's a penalty or not needs to be seriously amended. All this unnatural position etc just doesn't cut it, for me anyway.

I thought the 'scrap offside' comments were a joke until further posts were made lol

Imagine football without offside... I don't think you guys thought it through very thoroughly!   

Midfield would not really exist.

There would never be any forward played through for a one on one.

The concept of 'defence splitting passes' would be gone, as you could never set up a chance with such a pass (there would always be a bunch of attackers and defenders standing within 10 yards of the goal)

Players like Platini/De Bruyne would be obsolete . Accuracy would not help at all so you would just smash the ball into the area....

And if the defenders cleared they'd just punt it to the other area, where there would be a permanent crowd of defenders and goalhangers waiting there too.

It might evolve to the point where you would have 20 stone centre forwards, they wouldn't need to be athletic,they would never leave the 6 yard box

Maybe Fatty Foulkes type goalies would evolve to counter them. Keepers would never leave the 6 yard box either.

It would be like watching 2 simultaneous games of Three And In.

And if there was still the same standard of awarding pens because it touched someone's arm or because 'there was contact', then likely half the goals would be penalties, and most of the rest deflections.

If every team had 3 challenges if not used by 90 mins would def be used for timewasting.

And if there's nothing specified to VAR review?

VAR currently only by used to review specific incidents.

If it must be kept then keep it for offsides but get rid for anything else.

I think they're talking about some new tech for offsides.
Agree everything else should be scrapped.
The slow mo bollocks just makes anything look worse.

Aussie rules doesn't have offside, nor does basketball.

It really would change football though if
you scrapped offside, it would be a new sport.

We never had offside on playground at school, and
you learnt to goal hang, but did play offside
in pe and inter school games, and offside deffo
made for better game, imo.

Having said that I played quite a lot of 5 and 6 a side
without offside, and it was very good that there
was no offside.

Would certainly make the game more stretched as there would be no high line & defenders defending as a unit.

As Hayden says, offside in ice hockey is clear and never an issue for argument. This is because it is a drawn line  between half way and the goal line. One the puck crosses the line you can follow it in.  If it goes out of the zone you must go out too. Only feet count not hands , arms, fingernails etc as in football.
Called by a linesman who stands on the line. Rarely any controversy.
If you haven't seen this , watch an NHL game , all players and spectators know the rule. It does not need anyone to make personal judgement as in football, about interfering with play, first phase, second phase, who played the ball last, was the pass backward or level, how many players were in front of the attacker and all this rubbish.
Too many ifs and buts and personal opinions in football.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/05/17/football-copy-tennis-allow-managers-challenge-referees-var/

..

the trouble is you keep goal line tech,offside tech, violent tackle etc and get rid of VAR for handballs you just no a top team will benefit from all of above and win a game because an inferior team is denied a certain handball missed by the reff
known as THE LAW OF THE SOD

If var could be trusted to give little team the obvious pen we
wouldn't have the problem we have in prem league.

Why do the clubs get to decide?it's the fans who make the game,put the vote to all season ticket holders.

13 vote to scrap it, 7 vote to keep it and the 7 wins

May 17, 2024 -- 12:22PM, ----you-have-to-laugh--- wrote:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/05/17/football-copy-tennis-allow-managers-challenge-referees-var/..

Looks like Fifa have been reading this forum.

404 – Sorry, page not found
Perhaps this page has been moved or the URL has been mistyped

Still working for me sparrow, although I can't read it all without subscribing

Have a look here:

https://archive.ph/xwQKR

Should work from my link without subscription.

Wesdags link deffo doesn't need subscription...

Yes that works unlike VAR of course.

13 v 7 & it's kept.Is that right?

needs 2/3 maj which is 14

The challenge system like in cricket is the best option.
It's a good compromise.

It's perfect for cricket and tennis as there
are so many stoppages.

Football is a bit different, but it's good to see
them thrilling it.

Could lead to home team bias with ability to
have extra cameras...

Trialling not thrilling, as thrilling as it may be
to see them getting their heeds out of their arses to
look at stuff.

Getting rid of offside would ruin the game as we know it. You could just have a new line somewhere between box and centre circle where offside starts. That would stop teams pushing up to halfway and make the game more open.

If you extended the 18 yard line for offside
then made anybody in 18yd area active, it would
solve a multitude of problems, 18 yards may be too
close to goal line and 25yds might be better.

Ref & 2 linesmen,that's all you need.
Why change the pitch layout?Nothing wrong with
the game as it is.

It would deffo be interesting to watch a few matches without the offside rule.
The game would be ever so slightly stretched - think Aussie rules football.

18 a side...

1 ref and 2 linesman = mistakes and wrong decisions....VAR still = mistakes and wrong decisions  difference is VAR you constantly have to stop the game for minutes while its sorted out, lets just go back to the way we played the game for over 100 years.

In its present form VAR takes too long to review events and it sucks the joy out of your team scoring. It has to change or go.

UEFA have a quick automatic line drawer for offsides and I can't see anyone objecting to that being adopted in the Premiership.

As for all the rest, the subjective decisions, scrap them until someone can make an AI Referee. If Google can drive a driverless AI car around LA then developing an AIR should be relatively easy.

Everyone makes mistakes.Ruining a brilliant sport by trying to be too
forensic.

It would be nice if clear mistakes could be rectified post-match.  For example, Brentford secured a 1-1 draw with Arsenal last season thanks to an offside goal, a goal which VAR checked but forgot to draw the offside lines.  In that instance, remove the goal post-match and call it a 1-0 win to Arsenal.

That's even worse than the goal being wrongly given. Brentford are happy with a point and both sides play completely differently for the rest of the game than if it wasn't given.

i think this vote could be tight, will clubs poll their season ticket holders to decide their vote ? Should do, they are the biggest stakeholders.

^
Excellent idea.

No it's not worse.  Denying teams their deserved points is worse.  Having refs visiting training grounds on Monday mornings to apologise is worse.

I think alot of the refs are bent anyway.  It's impossible to be truly neutral.  It's impossible not to have some opinion of a team.

Lol.
You can't be deciding results after the game.

Goals change tactics, performances, urgency et al. Does a team bring on a striker (if losing) or a defensive player (if winning). You can't be changing results after the whistle and take away all tactical decisions that would have been made. Not a good idea at all.

just re an earlier point...

no offside works in 5 or 6 a side as you can't go in the semi circle goal area (or certainly was the case when I was still playing it)

just re an earlier point...

no offside works in 5 or 6 a side as you can't go in the semi circle goal area (or certainly was the case when I was still playing it)

Sorry but you need some kind of var in my opinion. Otherwise cheating , diving , big club forwards will get away with murder. Only today at Wembley a Crewe forward pushes the ball past  the goalie and then dives to get a penalty even though he could have stayed up and tapped the ball in the net. The penalty is given but then var shows that he declines to put his right foot on the turf and collapses with no trip from the goalie. var keeps players honest, although I agree it needs to be quicker and on a limited review system.

i watched that brians and fair point that was a VAR success story, I would prefer VAR, if continued, not to be slowed down though, maybe different angles but at match speed.
I think we would see just as many divers caught out. Who Knows ?

We used to play you could go in semi circle but could not score in it.

Local rules perhaps, but sense takes over when
you play and so long as rules work and everybody knows them
it's fine.

With VAR you have experienced top level refs arguing
over var decisions a week or so after decision
is made, so what chance can var have on tight ones
in a couple of minutes.

That hand of jesus goal divides opinion, but doubtless
var will use it to balance up their stats.

Wolves have had a dreadful deal from var, and
it's almost embarrassing to see league table of
var decisions with them so far adrift.

It was perhaps predictable that Wolves would have another decision go against them after they t**** a vote for VAR to be scrapped at the Premier League AGM on June 6. This decision means their VAR score across the last five seasons is -18 (33 VAR overturns have gone against them, with 15 in their favour). The magnitude is shown by next worst-affected clubs being Arsenal and West Ham United on -6.

Dale from espn.

Trigged (used by Dale not liked by mods, lol.)

Scotland ran a variation on offside in a competition Dryburgh cup 1972, 1973, fortunately too young to remember if it made game more entertaining or better.

Personally I think catching forwards off side is an underrated skill from Defenders.

My thoughts on off side VAR has basically made linesman, or correct title nowadays assistant referees 90% redundant, and I think that is wrong.

For the first time ever the ref overruled VAR in the Arsenal game.

Comical…would they have done that if the vote wasn’t happening?

Don’t fall for it…scrap VAR.

If you keep it then it’s a mandate for the refs to do whatever they like and you won’t be able to stop them.

They will just say - hey listen we had a vote in this and you all agreed we were doing a fantastic job so tough luck.

VAR is not perfect and plenty of room for improvement. The refs in the PL without VAR would be so bad it would be reintroduced within 2 seasons imo.
It would be better to have it with massively restricted use and a challenge system. None of this drawing lines malarkey and no slo mo replays. If you can't see it at full speed from 2-3 angles then don't intervene (unless there's a challenge). That's what everyone thought it would be like.

When offside can be automated and done quickly then use that for offside. In the meantime if there's no good angle to see then tough shít, onfield decision stands. They should prob get all rights holders to agree not to show angles of incidents that the ref/var don't get to see too, for their own sake.

Giving the refs full control over VAR is a joke. They use it to protect themselves. There shouldn't be a ref in charge of overseeing it and transparency and restrictions should be imposed upon them so that fans can hear all the audio.

Wolves may have had a lot of VAR decisions go against them but how many of them were wrong? The one yesterday certainly wasn't.

Sending a ref to a monitor is also just a waste of time. It's either clear and obvious in real time or it's not. Overrule him if it is and get on with the game. Pause the pics for offside and have a quick check. When automation works reliably move to using that. Let other leagues be the guinea pigs for getting it right by trial and error for years.

MALAY • May 20, 2024 4:19 PM BST
Scotland ran a variation on offside in a competition Dryburgh cup 1972, 1973, fortunately too young to remember if it made game more entertaining or better.

Personally I think catching forwards off side is an underrated skill from Defenders.

My thoughts on off side VAR has basically made linesman, or correct title nowadays assistant referees 90% redundant, and I think that is wrong.

Spot on, if a forward is too effing lazy to get back on side then he's interfering with play, that rule should be changed back instantly. Talking as a centre half who spent the whole time shouting 'get out', that was the way it was and still should be.

https://www.scottishfootballmuseum.org.uk/news/the-drybrough-cup/

..

The main reason they changed the offside rule to active is to stop teams playing the offside trap, which no team does any more. The great Milan side under Sacchi were masters at it. They dressed it up as encouraging attacking play but really it was to stop negative play. Not necessarily a bad thing tho. Same with the backpass rule. It is boring to watch.

They have already changed the goal kick rule to stop teams squeezing all outfield players into less than half the pitch from kick outs. Maybe they will do something else as all this sideways passing and domination of small spaces is also becoming boring to watch and resulting in uncompetitive games. VAR stoppages too but they seem fine with those.

You regularly see Arsenal and City defenders north of the centre circle in the opposition half. No other system can compete with the positional play nerds over a 38 game season. Bringing in a new no offside line somewhere between centre circle and box would solve it and be simple enough to implement all the way down to grassroots.

Basketball would be boring without clock to get out of own half from taking possession
Then shot clock, and front court to back court rule.

Studying stuff banned in other sports that can be legally
used in another sport is often a good thing.

You just feel that the inventer of tika taka
was a basketball student too.

Full court press was also basketball...

A spectator sport should not have rules which you need a degree to understand and interpret. The offside rule is a nightmare , even top commentators don't understand it. It badly needs simplifying. All this rule changing does not help improve the game, it just brings another raft of “ How do we play to combat this new rule “ plans from defences.
Yes , I am an old fogie but in my day, in the 60s and  70 's it was simple to understand, simple to operate and you got on with it. Two simple codicils. The ball must be played forward and you must have 2 players between you and the goal when it is passed. Simples.

What's hard to understand about the offside rule?
An attacker can't be beyond the last defender if a pass is played forward.

lurka
They have already changed the goal kick rule to stop teams squeezing all outfield players into less than half the pitch from kick outs. Maybe they will do something else as all this sideways passing and domination of small spaces is also becoming boring to watch and resulting in uncompetitive games


I agree. How about something like a max of 30 passes outside the opposition's box then you have to leave the ball alone for the opposition to take it.

Geez, you want to turn football into basketball.
What's next, a shot clock? No pass back once the ball is beyond the halfway line?

They stopped goalie picking up back passes as it became boring.

Give it time.

Wesdag. What's hard to understand about the offside rule?
An attacker can't be beyond the last defender if a pass is played forward.

Well thats not strictly correct is it? He may not be interfering with play, his hands or arms can be past the last defender and he is not offside, the ball may have been “ deliberately played “ , by an opponent ( judgement needed here ) ,he may be receiving the ball from a goal kick , corner or throw in, he may be stood inside the net,. Look up Law 11 on the F A website on offside rules. There are about 3 pages on it.
That's whats hard !

The only contentious offside I can remember in recent times is Rashford from last season when he was deemed to be not interfering when ManU equalised v Citeh.

99% of offsides are pretty much straightforward if VAR is done properly.

Why don't they all play rush goalie

This keeper was the man for playing rush goalie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRj3dKKp9tI&t=4s&ab_channel=England

There'll be an 8 minute delay before they announce the decision on VAR

There's no chance of VAR being scrapped. It's a WIP and it'll evolve and get better over time but they cant make changes without FIFA & UEFA permission.

I expect they'll bring in the semi automated offside similar to what we see in the Champion's League.

Premier League clubs have voted 19-1 in favour of keeping VAR

GOOGLE POLL.
73% said scrap it
27% said keep var.
poll was not finished when last i checked.

it looks like the players want VAR but the spectators want it scraped.

Premier League clubs have voted by 19-1 in favour of keeping video assistant referees (VAR) next season.

Wolves triggered a vote on the use of VAR in the 2024-25 season after formally submitting a resolution to the Premier League in May.

In order for VAR to be scrapped, 14 of the 20 Premier League clubs needed to vote in favour of doing so.

But only Wolves voted in favour of the proposal as they failed to gain any support from other Premier League clubs.

The Premier League has come under increasing pressure to modify VAR, which was introduced at the start of the 2019-20 season.

It was reaffirmed at the meeting that semi-automated offsides will be introduced at some point in the autumn, while the Premier League confirmed in-game VAR announcements will be put in place.

The in-game announcements, which were used during the 2023 women's World Cup, will see referees explain post-VAR decisions to supporters in stadiums.

In addition, the Premier League said the "high threshold" bar for VAR officials to intervene over subjective on-field decisions would be maintained.

Wolves triggered a motion after a string of decisions went against Gary O'Neil's side last season.

The Midlands club listed nine reasons to support its proposal to ban VAR, including the impact on goal celebrations, hostility towards match officials and the length of time needed to reach decisions.
Premier League has work to do

It is no surprise Wolves' proposal to get rid of VAR was rejected.

Given the Premier League was committed to paying for it, whether they used it or not, any likelihood of clubs joining Wolves was non-existent.

However, Wolves' secondary aim was to generate a wider debate and they have achieved that aim.

No-one, whether it is clubs, match officials or the Premier League, is happy with what is happening at the moment.

The Premier League wants greater transparency, which referees' chief Howard Webb believes will lead to greater understanding of the decision-making process.

Clubs - and players - want better decisions more quickly.

The introduction of semi-automated offsides from next autumn should help achieve that.

League officials are stressing the technology, which has been tested and analysed during the current campaign, will not eliminate delays - but it should provide quicker decisions, particularly on the marginal calls, which seem to take forever at the moment.

The average reduction, it is being claimed, will be 31 seconds.

But there is still work to do. The Premier League needs to avoid finding itself in this position again, otherwise the vote might not be so clear-cut.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone was working on an AI powered VAR

Well, there you have it

If you had an AI ref you wouldn't need an AI VAR

Wolves were the only club who voted to scrap it, that means that all the other clubs are not entitled to have any of their representatives to come out post match next season and complain about VAR decisions...you had your chance!!

good point duffy

Lol, they want better var.

So can still complain at the ricks that occur.

Premier League clubs have agreed to trial a new financial system next season on a non-binding basis.

Profitability and Sustainability Rules (PSR) will remain in 2024/25, but clubs will use Squad Cost Rules (SCR) and Top to Bottom Anchoring (TBA) on a shadow basis before determining whether to implement them permanently.

Premier League: "This will enable the League and clubs to fully evaluate the system, including the operation of UEFA’s equivalent new financial regulations, and to complete its consultation with all relevant stakeholders."

SCR will regulate on-pitch spend to 85% of a club’s football revenue and net profit/loss on player sales.

TBA is "a League-level anchor linked to football costs, based on a multiple of the forecast lowest central distribution for that season."

The Premier League have not disclosed the anchoring multiple. My understanding is that it is x5.

duffy I think all clubs want VAR to improve and it will. Little by little.

If you had an AI ref you wouldn't need an AI VAR

With all the video from all the various camera angles it shouldn't be too hard to create and AIVAR for football. The Waymo car and to an extent the Tesla FSD system both use the dramatic improvement in image recognition to interperate physical events in real time.

Of course all software needs rules to make decisions so someone would have to write a definitive set of rules for handballs, offside and wrestling in the box at set pieces

Booking players for contact to shirt
with hand whilst awaiting ball to be put
back into play, and additional sanction of
free kick or penalty if ball is in play would
see it stopped in a week.

Refs have let it evolve.

AI would sort it out... AI recommends 7 yellows
at first free kick... It stops.

It won't improve until the people operating it resist interfering with the highly subjective instances that occur in the penalty area, that is where the biggest problem lies with it.

An iffy handball or challenge would be quickly forgotten without VAR, with it we get awards and non awards which then set precedents that are not reciprocated in other games leaving everyone calling out for consistency.

Of course without VAR there will be inconsistences, but less so and the whole thing would be less incendiary, we lived with it for decades before without the game falling to bits. The more opportunity there is for people to get involved in making decisions the more problems we are going to get as we've seen.

I think there would be more inconsistencies without
VAR but they are more acceptable, and we thought
var would be better having seen video refs do
good jobs in other sports.

The inconsistencies of var are the most annoying
thing about it, and it's not explained as it's happening
so the feeling of a fix is more likely, even if its
not fixed.