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The Dragon
17 Nov 23 12:23
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Date Joined: 12 Mar 05
| Topic/replies: 50,796 | Blogger: The Dragon's blog
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Pause Switch to Standard View Everton Deducted 10 points
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Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 17, 2023 12:25 PM GMT
Appeal in progress.
Report dambuster November 17, 2023 12:31 PM GMT
If they're deducted 10, City should be deducted 40 if they're found guilty
Report scandanavian_haven November 17, 2023 12:35 PM GMT
Man City seem untouchable, they've been up to no good for far far longer than Everton yet nothing happens. But going by this 10 point deduction, City should indeed be looking at far more points that that if all that, even relegation.

You have to feel for Sean Dyche, 10 points from the last 4 games alone against West Ham and Palace away, Brighton and Burnley at home, what a waste.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 17, 2023 12:38 PM GMT
Man City is still under investigation and to follow.

As are Chelsea.

I guess these points are taken because of published figures
whereas man city and chelsea were hidden and later
discovered.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 17, 2023 12:39 PM GMT
Everton appeal likely around special situations due to covid.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 17, 2023 12:46 PM GMT
It's also, probably, the best season to take the hit,
and 10 points this season shouldn't be a problem
to avoid the drop.
Report The Dragon November 17, 2023 1:00 PM GMT
Everton have received an immediate 10-point deduction after being found to have breached the Premier League's profit and sustainability rules.

The punishment is the biggest sporting sanction in the competition's history and leaves Everton 19th in the table on a new total of four points.

The club said it was "both shocked and disappointed" by the "wholly disproportionate and unjust" ruling.

Everton have said they intend to appeal against the decision.

The Premier League referred Everton to an independent commission in March but did not reveal the specifics of the club's alleged breach.

Everton posted financial losses for the fifth successive year in March after reporting a £44.7m deficit in 2021-22.

Premier League clubs are permitted to lose £105m over a three-year period and Everton admitted to being in breach of the profit and sustainability rules (PSR) for the period ending 2021-22.

Following a five-day hearing in October, the commission found in favour of the Premier League that Everton's losses during that period amounted to £124.5m.

In a statement, Everton said: "The club does not recognise the finding that it failed to act with the utmost good faith and it does not understand this to have been an allegation made by the Premier League during the course of proceedings.

"Both the harshness and severity of the sanction imposed by the commission are neither a fair nor a reasonable reflection of the evidence submitted.

"The club will also monitor with great interest the decisions made in any other cases concerning the Premier League's profit and sustainability rules."

In Premier League history only two other clubs have received a points deduction.

Middlesbrough were deducted three points for failing to fulfil a fixture against Blackburn during the 1996-97 season, while in 2010 Portsmouth were deducted nine points after going into administration.

Neither club was able to avoid relegation following those sanctions.

The deduction leaves the Toffees level with bottom club Burnley on four points after 12 matches - and two points adrift of safety.
Report salmon spray November 17, 2023 1:04 PM GMT
It might make relegation a farce. Hopefully Everton should get out of the relegation zone anyway,but if they don't I can see it being in the courts after the season is over.
Report Tiger Tiger November 17, 2023 1:07 PM GMT
The decision should have been made before the start of this season, thereby relegating Everton. The FA had plenty of time.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 17, 2023 1:52 PM GMT
https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/11/everton-points-deduction-what-the-10-point-penalty-means-for-their-survival-hopes/

..
Report PorcupineorPineapple November 17, 2023 1:58 PM GMT
They must be made up it's been handed down now. They'll still stay up. They'll be a few points clear of the bottom 3 before christmas.
Report EastLower Gooner November 17, 2023 2:11 PM GMT
They will still stay up though lol
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 17, 2023 2:20 PM GMT
Burnley, Leeds and Leicester plan to SUE Everton for £300MILLION after Toffees were found guilty of breaking Premier League spending rules

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12762017/Burnley-Leeds-Leicester-SUE-Everton-300million.html

..
Report Mat22 November 17, 2023 2:49 PM GMT
Toffees will stay up. Nothing worry about. some on here need to take their medication Cool
Report GoBallistic November 17, 2023 2:54 PM GMT
12 pts was mooted, it turns out to be 10 pts. The one thing it was never going to be was 11 pts. Arbitrary numbers are funny
Report PorcupineorPineapple November 17, 2023 2:54 PM GMT
The legal action is by far more significant. Could well see the club go under and have to work their way up from the local non-leagues.
Report s.kenbo November 17, 2023 3:47 PM GMT
They’re lucky it’s this season. That much dross down the bottom they should easily stay up.
Report dambuster November 17, 2023 4:05 PM GMT

Nov 17, 2023 -- 2:20PM, ----you-have-to-laugh--- wrote:


Burnley, Leeds and Leicester plan to SUE Everton for £300MILLION after Toffees were found guilty of breaking Premier League spending ruleshttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-12762017/Burnley-Leeds-Leicester-SUE-Everton-300million.html..


That's as big a news as the 10 points, if not more. City and Chelsea could well face relegation.
Would have to be done by the End of this season though.
Have the FA got the Bollox, and have they got enough money to challenge the legal challenges ?

Report duffy November 17, 2023 4:18 PM GMT
Even if City appear to be untouchable, a club actually receiving a deduction serves as at least a means to keep the City situation in focus and current as people discuss why they're still to face a punishment.
Report The Dragon November 17, 2023 4:30 PM GMT
it will be interesting to see the detail when its made available in relation to the charges
Report SirNorbertClarke November 17, 2023 5:35 PM GMT
Hopefully City will be next.

I doubt Killer Mo will be s stupid as to use emails
Report Senyatta November 17, 2023 5:44 PM GMT
city out to 1.66 now. think they were about the 1.5 mark earlier
Report The Dragon November 17, 2023 5:56 PM GMT
Sheff utd, Luton Burnley and Bournemouth all shorter than Everton for relegation
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 17, 2023 6:02 PM GMT
If 10 is max deduction I think market has it right there.

Chance it's cut, or removed too.
Report SontaranStratagem November 17, 2023 6:37 PM GMT
City will get off scot free we all know it

Because they hit them theyll justify the breakaways league and they simply wont allow it
Report scandanavian_haven November 17, 2023 7:01 PM GMT
points deduction can be reduced but it wont be removed, their statement today basically admits guilt, it's all about what the final pts deduction will be on appeal, probably remain in the 6-10pts range.
Report unitedbiscuits November 17, 2023 10:17 PM GMT
Everton can play the victim. We shall overcome.
Report GLASGOWCALLING November 17, 2023 10:25 PM GMT
Lump on Liverpool to win the league, MC points deduction incoming imo. Wink
Report rothko November 17, 2023 10:39 PM GMT
man city have 115 charges and have not co-operated

Everton - co-operated and 10 points deducted
Report SirNorbertClarke November 18, 2023 12:03 AM GMT
City's charges stem from their email server being hacked. All their shenanaquins are there in plain text. Very hard to deny.
Report Analyst November 18, 2023 5:23 PM GMT
Everton will stay up.

Luton are the biggest challenge at present to Everton and they are on course for around 20 points for the season.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 18, 2023 9:29 PM GMT
https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1725949043807797525?s=19

..
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 18, 2023 9:31 PM GMT
https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire/status/1725958742594769299?s=19

..
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 19, 2023 1:22 PM GMT
The Premier League’s top clubs are set to be handed a greater proportion of prize money in a move reigniting tensions within the competition after Everton’s 10-point deduction for spending breaches.

Under the top tier’s existing 1.6 to one ratio, treble winners Manchester City earned an estimated £161.3 million last season while Southampton received £100.3 million as the bottom club.

However, from 2025-26 the competition’s merit-based system will be worth potentially tens of millions more for the biggest clubs under a new 1.8 to one ratio.


The calibration is said to be dictated by international growth in league revenue as well as the Consumer Prices Index. High rates of inflation mean a more favourable rate for smaller clubs next season, with insiders describing the system as “swings and roundabouts”.

However, as clubs meet to potentially vote through the long-awaited New Deal For Football on Tuesday, the eventual upward trajectory for the big clubs could be discussed, other sources say. Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspur have often been at odds with the other clubs over how the new solidarity system should be paid for.

Although a total of around £130 million extra per year for the lower leagues now appears close, the exact allocation of how costs will be shared between the clubs is said to remain of some debate.

Pressure is building again on the Premier League to finally announce a deal after Everton received a 10-point deduction over spending breaches.

With the club receiving its punishment just a week after the plan for a new independent regulator in English football was outlined in the King’s Speech, the the Culture, Media and Sport Committee seized on the opportunity to call for regulation to be expedited. Dame Caroline Dinenage, its chair, said the Everton verdict illustrated “that the status quo cannot continue”. “I repeat my call for the Government to urgently introduce the Football Governance Bill, as announced in the King’s Speech, to enable a statutory independent regulator to be in place as soon as possible,” she added.


Despite some lingering reservations, there does appear to be broad support in the game at the Premier League’s long-awaited New Deal to fend off more radical restrictions from Government. With the Football Association also consulted, the biggest financial shake-up in decades had been years in the making and the EFL had initially been seeking 25 per cent of pooled media revenues from the Premier League in the new financial settlement.

However, in return for a major uplift on funding, the EFL is largely happy with the final package. Teams to go down will also be allowed to spend on wages and transfers at 85 per cent of revenue. That level of spending was secured initially to allow smaller clubs in the top tier compete with the so-called big six as Uefa’s new 70 per cent cap began.

Existing Championship teams, however, will be restricted to 70 per cent in return for receiving increased solidarity payments. To counter concerns of unfairness, the EFL has negotiated a so-called “equity top up” as part of the deal. One source estimates that add-on would amount to another 20 per cent of spending.

With the final details once again to be talked through by the clubs on Tuesday, one insider said the deal is now “on the runway”. Campaign group Fair Game has criticised the focus on payments based on league position, saying they “increased the incentive to overspend”.

Ruben Neves’ potential loan to Newcastle could also be scuppered at Tuesday’s meeting, with clubs set to vote through fast-tracking a ban on such deals between associated clubs. It is claimed privately that the measure is not specifically designed to stop Newcastle signing Neves. Talks continue over long-term solutions.

The Premier League defines a related party as having “material influence over the club or (being) an entity in the same group of companies as the club”.




Telegraph
Report PorcupineorPineapple November 19, 2023 1:55 PM GMT
Football just seems to be getting absolutely everything wrong in the last few years.
Report scandanavian_haven November 19, 2023 4:22 PM GMT
How about the players take a pay cut and the money is used to lower ticket prices ?

Salary cap would have to be put in place, wouldn't happen though.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 19, 2023 4:49 PM GMT
Salary cap would need to come from fifa, and
easily avoided anyway by players setting up
businesses that can be used as advertising agencies
or for promotions of products.

Setting a cap on how much a club can spend is likely
best way, but linking it to turnover looks like
attempt to keep big clubs big and little clubs little.

And it's already failing.
Report comingupthehill November 19, 2023 5:12 PM GMT
It can’t really be managed.

Players cap.
Donald trump buys Luton,they win the treble,make 500 million profit that season,players capped on 50k a week.
Trump sells ground to tescos and releases all the players.

On the club over spending.
A Hollywood movie star buys Wrexham,through his contacts in media and business,he gets the urinals sponsored at 10k a wee.sells a Netflix program generating 10 million.
FIFA’s say,these are inflated deals enabling Wrexham to buy the best players.and isn’t a true reflection of their income.but it is a true reflection,the Hollywood guy is just good at getting sponsorship.
How can any of this be stopped.
Report SontaranStratagem November 19, 2023 5:14 PM GMT
The only way around it is to scrap all ffp amd go back to clubs just finding an owner who wants to put his money in

But nowadays they just take out loans in the clubs name and then fook off when it goes bang

Could ban loans, but we all know there would be “loopholes”

The only way is to police it and if caught cheating the system they get hung simple as that
Report SontaranStratagem November 19, 2023 5:19 PM GMT
Comingupthehill

There is no way around it really

The only way is drop stupid rules and go back to the old days of owner wants in and he can spend, ban sponsorships entirely would be the only way

No silly backdoor sponsors, no sponsors on shirts etc

Owner isnt allowed to take out loans, if he does hes strung up
Report comingupthehill November 19, 2023 5:21 PM GMT
Loans and sales of grounds,future ticket sales etc could be blocked,
But what happens when your owner gives the manager an 8 year contract on top money,see Newcastle,
Report comingupthehill November 19, 2023 5:26 PM GMT
In the USA,there’s players caps,draft picks,worst team gets best player.then mention health care and they scream communism,they are the land of the free and the American dream,anything goes in business for profit.then they bet on the tote whilst smug that socialism won’t take root in their country.

Players caps,controlling club spend by definition stifles growth and success.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 19, 2023 5:41 PM GMT
A lot of USA sport is a closed system..

They don't have clubs competing at international level
for mega cash

Football is different so usa type caps wont
work unless coming from fifa.


Prem league could invert the 1.8 system to give
lowest clubs most cash to level the playing field,

But other leagues would overtake our top clubs, and
so everybody would suffer.

We need out top clubs to prove how good our league
is by winner euro cups, etc.

So 1.8 to top is accepted...
Report SirNorbertClarke November 20, 2023 9:03 AM GMT
Even 100 years ago clubs used off the books payments to lure top players. Now that clubs are owned by mege billionaires and even oil states that practice is only going to get worse.

City only got caught when their emails server got hacked. I guarantee they won't be using emails again when discussing anything remotely dodgy.
Report SirNorbertClarke November 20, 2023 11:50 AM GMT
Abrupt end to early success with corruption allegations (1904–05)

Main article: English football bribery scandal

In the 1904–05 season Manchester City were level on points with Newcastle United in the league and needed to beat Aston Villa on the final day of the season to seal the First Division championship. Villa won the game 3–2 at Villa Park and City finished third overall in the league, two points behind eventual champions Newcastle United. After the game Alec Leake, the captain of Aston Villa, claimed that Billy Meredith had offered him £10 to throw the game.[17]

Meredith was found guilty of this offence by the Football Association and was fined and suspended from playing football for a year. Whilst Manchester City refused to provide financial help for Meredith and so he decided to go public about claimed that City were breaking the rules: "What was the secret of the success of the Manchester City team? In my opinion, the fact that the club put aside the rule that no player should receive more than four pounds a week ... The team delivered the goods, the club paid for the goods delivered and both sides were satisfied."[18] This statement roused suspicion as the Football League had imposed a £4 a week cap on wages on all clubs in 1901, whereas Meredith alleged publicly that City broke this rule.

The Football Association now carried out a thorough investigation into the financial activities of Manchester City and they came to the conclusion that City had been making additional payments to all their players. Tom Maley, the manager, was suspended from football for life and City was fined £250. Seventeen players were fined and suspended until January 1907 whilst City were forced to sell their players and at an auction at the Queen's Hotel in Manchester. The Manchester United manager, Ernest Mangnall signed the outstandingly gifted, Billy Meredith for only £500. Mangnall also purchased three other talented members of the City side, Herbert Burgess, Sandy Turnbull and Jimmy Bannister. These former City players became the core of the side that won the Football League championship in the 1907–08 season.

Journalists were aware that most clubs in the Football League was making illegitimate payments to its players. Football writers based in Manchester argued that the club, being a northern side, were being made an example of, and thousands of people complained to the Football Association, who refused to reduce the bans and fines. Nevertheless, the unfair ban in some eyes brought a young and very potentially a successful team to an abrupt halt, although the whistle-blower Meredith did return to City later on in his career.
Report dambuster November 20, 2023 12:43 PM GMT
^^ A very good read
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 20, 2023 1:37 PM GMT
https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/11/premier-league-2023-24-relegation-predictions-november/

..
Report SirNorbertClarke November 20, 2023 1:44 PM GMT
Player X is Europe's hottest striker and Team A want to sign him but they are already sailing close to the FFP wind and couldn't pay out the £150m he would cost on the open market.

They come to an agreement.

The striker tells his current club he will only sign for club A. In return the owner of club A will deposit £100m in a country B bank account. There's no need to worry about any tax or any investigation because the owner of club A is the fcukin Prime Minister head of security services of country B.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 20, 2023 2:01 PM GMT
Player H says he will run down his contract to zero.

Or sell me now for £60 million

Player H will get salary he wants, and dad gets more
work as an agent...

Perhaps
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 20, 2023 2:04 PM GMT
Brother and sister could be in line for lucrative jobs
when uni courses complete.

Not difficult to spend cash.
Report SirNorbertClarke November 20, 2023 3:01 PM GMT
Almost certainly how UEFA & FIFA officials get paid.

It has gone on forever. The numbers are just now much bigger.
Report brain dead jockeys November 20, 2023 6:49 PM GMT
it seems to be very difficult to enforce the financial fair play rules. related companies can just sponsor the club. authorities put a "market value" on the sponsorship. who are they to decide the value of this sponsorship?

it also prevents smaller clubs from spending as much as bigger clubs and therefore from having success.

owners of other business's can invest as much money as they want and rack up losses. why cant football?
Report roggrain November 20, 2023 9:33 PM GMT
The game is all about money now not sport. If some multi trillionaire from the middle East were to

buy, say, Wimborne Town FC,build a huge stadium and buy top players from around the World Wimborne

would become a top Premiership team in no time. The sight of players who have been transferred from

one club to another and kissing the emblem on the new club's shirt is sickening!

How many players in the top Premiership teams are British?

How would Chelsea have done without the bottomless pit of money from Abramovic?
Report SontaranStratagem November 20, 2023 10:07 PM GMT
Corporate capitalism has ruined everything

I hate the phrase but a reset needed is apt
Report Tiger Tiger November 21, 2023 3:17 PM GMT
roggrain20 Nov 23 21:33Joined: 15 Sep 10
The game is all about money now not sport. If some multi trillionaire from the middle East were to

buy, say, Wimborne Town FC,build a huge stadium and buy top players from around the World Wimborne

would become a top Premiership team in no time.




And just exactly how would they get around the FFP? Given that club owners are now now only allowed a very limited investment in their squad, unlike when Man City were taken over and won the league, and Leicester City too of course.

Just for info, some clubs do play Brits in their team, Newcastle have had 8 English born players starting matches in recent weeks, way in front of any other PL club, whereas in the Fulham v Spurs game a couple of weeks ago there was only 1 Englishman amongst the 22 starters.
Report SirNorbertClarke November 21, 2023 3:26 PM GMT
There's UEFA FFP and there is Premier League FFP.

No too sure about the lower leagues
Report SirNorbertClarke November 21, 2023 3:29 PM GMT
Championship Clubs follow Profitability and Sustainability (“P&S”) Rules which dictate what losses Clubs are permitted to incur over a rolling three-year period.

League One and League Two Clubs follow the Salary Cost Management Protocol (“SCMP”) These state that Clubs can only spend a fixed percentage of its revenue on player wages etc. This limit can also be added to or impacted by equity injections or net transfer spend.
Report spyker November 23, 2023 12:46 AM GMT
The game is all about money now not sport

its always bee thus 0 just a lot more money now, instead of a local bigshot pulling dodgy strings its bigger bigshots with bigger pockets and heavier strings..
Report SirNorbertClarke November 23, 2023 12:06 PM GMT
The corruption in the game is probably why no American tech company have bought a club even though it would be chump change to Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook, Amazon.

If an American tech company was found to be making illegal or off the books payments with shareholders money they would face decades wearing orange.

They just wouldn't be able to compete with oil state clubs. No one can.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 23, 2023 12:30 PM GMT
benefit by association



... Association football... Ha ha ha more true than ever before
Report lurka November 23, 2023 12:39 PM GMT
If American tech cos had any interest in buying a sports team they'd have bought a US one a decade ago.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- November 23, 2023 1:00 PM GMT
https://twitter.com/Exploding_Heads/status/1727647263739064332?s=19

..
Report PorcupineorPineapple November 23, 2023 2:46 PM GMT
Very good those two.


This one the other day was excellent - https://twitter.com/Exploding_Heads/status/1726929115851128924
Report clayj November 24, 2023 12:42 AM GMT
its a good there not on minus points it reads a different tale, i reckon they have enough to come thru this and stay in the league but history suggests clubs with docked points normally get relegated, its better not being at the start of the season and now , i would like to go along the lines of referees on this 1 that every fkin 1 of them  hold some sort of decision making flavour against us , maybe not oliver , but if they have docked them points ther must b enough ther for them to do it and its better trying wt u want but make sure u back the team even more and go for top half of table, and also theres no way if city have enough in place for a similar thing it wont happen its not possible, liverpool at 7-1 looks alright or everton to come in the top half at like50-1 (guess) , theres no way just cos its everton , the referees tho espc them derby matches its like they got a bet on |:S
Report PorcupineorPineapple November 24, 2023 8:02 AM GMT
Blues up here really are very upset about it. And to be honest, I'm not sure why. They were overspending and trying to cover it up. If they hadn't been pulled up a couple of years ago they'd have spent even more and could be in real trouble. The PL has - imo - gone fairly soft on them. Ten point deduction is within range but they could have done it late last season and relegated them. Instead they let this season get underway and see there are three real turds at the bottom and it'll have no big impact on the blues unless they implode, which would be their own fault now.
Report The Dragon November 24, 2023 8:07 AM GMT
Everton will not go down despite the deduction

Burnley, sheff utd and luton will ensure that
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