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mesmerised
11 Jul 21 22:56
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Date Joined: 10 Nov 10
| Topic/replies: 29,043 | Blogger: mesmerised's blog
there's a World Cup in 18 months time, with the current crop of genuinely talented and young creative players such as Grealish, Bellingham, Sancho and the like, FA should sack Southgate tonight, not a kneejerk reaction, let a new manager have this time to work with them, he tried to Greece his way to the tournament win at home with a much higher calibre of player, ridiculous.
Pause Switch to Standard View Sack Southgate tonight
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Report scandanavian_haven July 12, 2021 12:06 AM BST
will sign a new contract
Report Capt__F July 12, 2021 12:07 AM BST
dodgy pen tho
Report howard July 12, 2021 12:10 AM BST
He's not the worst we've had but I would rather see more than 2 shots on target and some skilful midfield play with the likes of Grealish  even if we lose 4-3. We need more fun watching entertainers comfortable on the ball.  Italy played football as it should be without the quality strikers that we have.
Report swiftynifty July 12, 2021 12:11 AM BST
he needs to do his 100 lines first

I must not be so gutless
I must not be so gutless
Report BRIGGSY08 July 12, 2021 12:13 AM BST
Signed
Report Geesyerdosh July 12, 2021 12:13 AM BST
Never. The man is a legend and should be rewarded with a rolling 20 year contract.

He understood people needed a lift and he gave us the biggest laugh for decades.

Take a bow, Sir Gareth.
Report ribero1 July 12, 2021 12:16 AM BST
Sacked? he'll get a flipping Knighthood,with them getting beat at least all the politicians,Royals,media ****s,celebrities,etc etc can't pretend they were all part of it.
Report lurka July 12, 2021 12:17 AM BST
I said earlier in the tournament that they should even if he won. He has one plan, no plan b. mancini, enrique, that new german manager etc are tactically diverse with a plan b c and d up their sleeves. That's because they are better, more experienced, and most of all have worked day to day with top players and honed their gameplans thru learning from mistakes week to week for years.

With England's crop of young players it is vital that they have a manager who is tactically diverse and can get the best out of them. Not in 18 months, but by the time they reach their peak in the next 3 WCs. They should be looking to win one of them.
Report scandanavian_haven July 12, 2021 12:31 AM BST
25 years later and the football Gods decide to piss some more on Southgate, he really is cursed
Report LoyalHoncho July 12, 2021 1:34 AM BST
Wow!
"the quality strikers that we have".
That;s a new one to this forum.  That took my breath away that one.
Report Giuseppe July 12, 2021 1:40 AM BST
should have played Rashford or Calvert-Lewin instead of Kane
Report going skint July 12, 2021 1:54 AM BST
should have been sacked after the scotland game
Report LoyalHoncho July 12, 2021 1:59 AM BST
We couldn't have done that - Clarke is doing a fine job and deserves more time.
Report n88uk July 12, 2021 2:08 AM BST
Never going to happen. There does seem to be a lack of alignment of expectations relative to the squad in this country. England had about as easy draw as you could ever imagine, and still didn't win. The football is rancid and doesn't utilise half the talent in the squad, everything is safety first, and about containing the opposition.
Report glasshouses dogman July 12, 2021 2:09 AM BST
It is very easy to say sack the manager. This can often be said after a disappointment such as tonight. However, it can be easy to say this but not that easy to find a good replacement.

OK so sack Southgate but who would you suggest replacing him with. Then after how many, if any, of those you suggested would want the job.

I thought the match tonight was hard to call with both teams having a similar chance of winning the competition. I thought it could be close and be settled by an instance of skill or a bad mistake. I just hoped if a mistake was made by on of our coloured players they would not be bombarded by crass comments on social media. Even on nights like this some people are needed to work. I was working and started to watch the match about 20 mins into the second half.

Sadly I am now expecting our penalty missing players to get lots of abuse on social media. People should think it is the players like them who have improved our status in world soccer and being young give us great promise for more improvement in the future.

Perhaps also worth mentioning is the behavior of some of our fans was a disgrace to the country, in particular England.
Report n88uk July 12, 2021 2:09 AM BST
The stats tonight really are a disgrace given the talent in England's ranks, 35% possession, 6 shots their 19, 1 on target, just abysmal given the talent at their disposal.

Italy had a clear weakness down their left, we exploited it after 2 minutes, then didn't exploit again in 118 minutes.
Report Coachbuster July 12, 2021 2:12 AM BST
Thought he did a grand job  but he will be remembered for the second half of tonights game of course
Report n88uk July 12, 2021 2:12 AM BST

Jul 11, 2021 -- 8:09PM, glasshouses dogman wrote:


It is very easy to say sack the manager. This can often be said after a disappointment such as tonight. However, it can be easy to say this but not that easy to find a good replacement.OK so sack Southgate but who would you suggest replacing him with. Then after how many, if any, of those you suggested would want the job.I thought the match tonight was hard to call with both teams having a similar chance of winning the competition. I thought it could be close and be settled by an instance of skill or a bad mistake. I just hoped if a mistake was made by on of our coloured players they would not be bombarded by crass comments on social media. Even on nights like this some people are needed to work. I was working and started to watch the match about 20 mins into the second half.Sadly I am now expecting our penalty missing players to get lots of abuse on social media. People should think it is the players like them who have improved our status in world soccer and being young give us great promise for more improvement in the future.Perhaps also worth mentioning is the behavior of some of our fans was a disgrace to the country, in particular England.


Plenty here have been questioning Southgate all along. It's only really media and general fan euphoria meaning you get boom/bust where win = you're the best thing ever, you don't = manager out.

As for who to bring in. Graham Potter is a much more progressive manager than Southgate.

Report lurka July 12, 2021 2:12 AM BST

Jul 11, 2021 -- 7:40PM, Giuseppe wrote:


should have played Rashford or Calvert-Lewin instead of Kane


People blaming Kane haven't a clue. Rashford has been muck for months and DCL can only score from 6 yards.

Why are you blaming a player who was defending 35 yards from his own goal in the first half. Sterling was too. The manager is 100% to blame. You see that you change it up. At half time at least. You do nothing and make no changes as you are watching your team get obliterated gradually until the goal goes in.

Personnel have nothing to do with it. A Plan B was needed from 50 mins at the latest, once you saw how Italy were turning the screw, but nothing. It was the same in the WC SF. Everyone could see it. Look at the match thread and we were all saying it. Not a peep of criticism from the BBC for Southgate. Lineker and shearer more interested in sticking the boot into Kane to make themselves look better. That is the quality of punditry and analysis England fans have been listening to all tournament. Horseshít merchants. Lampard and Jenas are even worse.

How was Harry Kane or Sterling supposed to do anything when you don't have a midfield and don't have a counter attack? Pick up the ball on the edge of their box and do a Maradona? They could barely get out of their half for about 40 mins before the goal.

Report Giuseppe July 12, 2021 2:16 AM BST
England don't need a tall striker with little pace like Kane

he doesn't suit their game
Report Giuseppe July 12, 2021 2:17 AM BST
Kane's main contribution has been crossing and taking corners
Report Giuseppe July 12, 2021 2:19 AM BST
in most games i mean, i know he has scored, but he's not someone who usually gets a lot of chances the way england play

a faster player would be better for counter attacks
Report lurka July 12, 2021 2:21 AM BST
Apart from the goals and playing Saka in? Kane is the best finisher and the best creater of chances England have. Media will tell you it's Grealish and it is in the PL, but not for England because Southgate hasn't a clue how to use Grealish.
Report lurka July 12, 2021 2:22 AM BST
The guy is defence and clean sheet with no plan B. Thought he could defend a 1-0 lead for 88 mins.

The early goal killed England.
Report n88uk July 12, 2021 2:27 AM BST

Jul 11, 2021 -- 8:12PM, lurka wrote:


Jul 12, 2021 -- 12:40AM, Giuseppe wrote:should have played Rashford or Calvert-Lewin instead of KanePeople blaming Kane haven't a clue. Rashford has been muck for months and DCL can only score from 6 yards.Why are you blaming a player who was defending 35 yards from his own goal in the first half. Sterling was too. The manager is 100% to blame. You see that you change it up. At half time at least. You do nothing and make no changes as you are watching your team get obliterated gradually until the goal goes in.Personnel have nothing to do with it. A Plan B was needed from 50 mins at the latest, once you saw how Italy were turning the screw, but nothing. It was the same in the WC SF. Everyone could see it. Look at the match thread and we were all saying it. Not a peep of criticism from the BBC for Southgate. Lineker and shearer more interested in sticking the boot into Kane to make themselves look better. That is the quality of punditry and analysis England fans have been listening to all tournament. Horseshít merchants. Lampard and Jenas are even worse.How was Harry Kane or Sterling supposed to do anything when you don't have a midfield and don't have a counter attack? Pick up the ball on the edge of their box and do a Maradona? They could barely get out of their half for about 40 mins before the goal.


Southgate reminds me of Solskjaer with his game management, both are very similar in their lack of it where they fail to see the game changing, and adapt to it. Both very reluctant to make subs to change the game, Solskjaer least has the excuse his bench is norm rubbish, Southgate doesn't even have that.

And tbf Lineker was actually trying to spin into some veiled criticism, I thought what he was implying in his questions was a lot of truth, but he's the presenter, there's not a lot he can do if the pundits are all going to refuse to criticise the tactics.

Report brentford July 12, 2021 2:31 AM BST
Fairly inevitable in football and to be fair probably most sports, if the results are good the coach is seen as doing a good job regardless of shortcomings, if the results are bad the coach is seen as doing a poor job even if effecting positive change or good judgements...no grey areas in evaluating managerial abilities and more is the pity...
Report n88uk July 12, 2021 2:32 AM BST
A lot of Lineker's questioning was down the line of lack of attacking players on pitch, those that are on there not helped by tactics, lack of changing it, but the pundits around him were going to defend Southgate to the hilt.

It's like we heard from Shearer I think how Rice and Phillips were again world class tonight and justifying their selection, but isn't this part of the problem. England are relying on them being world class playing like this, and that's way over egging it anyway, I didn't think Phillips was particularly good, Rice was decent, but there's a collective problem here that adds up to England's problems of not creating enough, not controlling the games enough, they are a big part of that, as they are two of our three man midfield where neither is particularly positive with the ball.
Report n88uk July 12, 2021 2:33 AM BST

Jul 11, 2021 -- 8:31PM, brentford wrote:


Fairly inevitable in football and to be fair probably most sports, if the results are good the coach is seen as doing a good job regardless of shortcomings, if the results are bad the coach is seen as doing a poor job even if effecting positive change or good judgements...no grey areas in evaluating managerial abilities and more is the pity...


For sure right with this, I think I posted after one of the England games how someone was right, but you're just wasting your time really, pissing in the wind criticising England after a win. As the euphoria is such it really doesn't matter how sh*t we are to get there as long as win, most the audience really don't care less.

Report Giuseppe July 12, 2021 2:37 AM BST
fair enough lurka maybe you are right about kane
Report LoyalHoncho July 12, 2021 2:43 AM BST
What you are saying is true brentford but I have criticised Southgate from day one of this tournament.  How you didn't beat us I'll never know but it has to come down to him.  We;ve just been turfed 2-0 at home, couldn't score in a br othel and yet he insists on the containing game. "Don't lose", at home, against the 48th ranked country in the world?  Utter madness!  I recommended him taking the shackles off often on here - so many of us saw it.  But he doesn't have the imagination.  My point is even when winning matches the team was playing pretty moderately, yet he was satisfied.  Poor for me.
Report Giuseppe July 12, 2021 2:47 AM BST
4-5-1

Phillips - Rice

Saka - Grealish - Sterling

Kane

would this work?
Report Giuseppe July 12, 2021 2:47 AM BST
Grealish could drop deeper than the other two
Report lurka July 12, 2021 2:51 AM BST
Thought Rice was very good for about 60 odd minutes, was trying to pass forward and even run past Italy's midfielders with the ball when the defence were under immense pressure in their own third. Only player who did that in the second half before the goal. Seemed to fade for a while and went missing until he went off, but they all did.
Report n88uk July 12, 2021 2:51 AM BST
Mount was completely anonymous tonight and should have been taken off much earlier than he was. The second half was crying out for someone who would want the ball and actually can keep the ball (ie. Grealish), but again it's all safety first. Mount is first choice as he has the highest work rate and best defensive of options to play that role. It's same principle almost certainly why Saka is favoured over Sancho, higher work rate, better defensively. Every thing about England is about containing the opposition, not about what we can do to the opposition going the other way.
Report brentford July 12, 2021 2:52 AM BST
I don't disagree LH,

but a penalty kick either way and the debate was closed for all time - not because it should have been but because we (Eng) had won a tournament...

I think Southgate has done a lot of good things (creating team ethic, getting media onside, breaking down club cliques, modernising specific coaching responsibilities, promoting a good national image) but tactics and player selection wouldn't be rating high on my evaluation...however it's a tough argument when a national team make a final for the first time in 55 years..no one wants to hear it..and plenty of highly regarded coaches have got far less from far more in England national team terms.
Report n88uk July 12, 2021 2:55 AM BST
For sure Southgate's best work seems to be having everyone together with no cliques, you used to hear and see very clear cliques with England all the time, all seems to be gone now.
Report lurka July 12, 2021 3:02 AM BST
I think even if England had won on pens, a lot of the fans on here who thought Irish and Scottish etc posters who were saying the opposite of the BBC all tournament and being called jealous etc would have come around and finally seen sense regardless.

They were playing like Mourinho's United or Arteta's Arsenal, even against Scotland at home. defensively dodgy, manager doesn't trust the defence, uses the midfield to protect it and sacrifices the attack to do so. Good goals conceded numbers but not a good defence.
Report Giuseppe July 12, 2021 3:10 AM BST
what cliques are you talking about, liverpool and man u?
Report n88uk July 12, 2021 3:10 AM BST
People wouldn't give a toss how England won it if they won. The England fanbase has a load of casuals for starters who probably barely know the diff between good and bad football, but even at clubs you see how it works with like Mourinho at clubs, there are naysayers, but there are people who will defend it while it's winning, even if the data suggests otherwise and you are being lucky.
Report n88uk July 12, 2021 3:11 AM BST
All the big clubs were guilty of it really. I think you had like Man Utd players and Chelsea players stick together in the days it was those two going for the title every year like 10+ years ago.
Report brentford July 12, 2021 3:17 AM BST
and a lot of that era was managed by foreign coaches that didn't really address many of the fundamentals and were also probably too swayed by public opinion and media to the point of being scared to leave out a big name for the better balance of the side
Report elisjohn July 12, 2021 8:44 AM BST
one of the most stupid comments ive ever heard on itv by southgate, reporter asked about bringing the subs on so late, he replied. " we,ll if we brought them on sooner we might have lost anyway"
Report FATTIEWHITEYSLOVEADRINK July 12, 2021 9:34 AM BST
That second half was enough imo
To get Southgate the chop !!!!
No idea what to do
if Federico Chiesa stayed on we would of got done in 90min
Report kincsem July 12, 2021 9:45 AM BST
His teams got to the semi-final of the World Cup and the final of the Euros.
I assume you think they should have won both tournaments, and win the upcoming World Cup.
He stays.  That is certain.
Report steerforth July 12, 2021 9:50 AM BST
Then let's hope he takes a long look at himself and learns something.
Report sageform July 12, 2021 9:56 AM BST
Absolutely keep him. The players like him which is a rarity in English football. On the few occasions they got on the pitch, the 3 you mention in the OP were rubbish. Best players on the night were the experienced ones such as Walker, Shaw, Maguire, Stones, Kane and Sterling who played almost 90 minutes of every game. Henderson clearly not match fit and hardly touched the ball. Rice and Phillips were the best of the relative newcomers but Mount was disappointing.
Report dpm July 12, 2021 9:56 AM BST
Been saying it since first game, Southgate too negative so wanted him to let the handbrake off, won't play Grealish because he isn't defensive enough and Rice and Philips are the new Lampard and Gerrard can't play them in the same team.
Report elisjohn July 12, 2021 10:02 AM BST
what southgate need to do between now and world cup,  decide what his starting 11 is and play them as a team regularly, occassionly chop and change 1 or 2 players etc etc, ( will have to injuries etc), but settle on your team,and your system  most of the best dont change and swop like england,  and forget now about experimenting and doing stupid things like playing a team in a friendly a week or so before a tournament with players thats not included in his squad, that was shambolic imo
Report FOYLESWAR July 12, 2021 10:20 AM BST
yes we dont need one manager ,what we need is the  collective wisdom and input   of the betfair football forum to take over southgates role ,  if these experts  were pulling the strings since betfair started we  would have won every world cup and euros since , we should also replace the players with the forums finest who would do a far better job and would be laden with medals and trophys by now . and would have scored every penalty in  any shoot outs as well . what we wainting for?
Report n88uk July 12, 2021 10:21 AM BST

Jul 12, 2021 -- 3:56AM, sageform wrote:


Absolutely keep him. The players like him which is a rarity in English football. On the few occasions they got on the pitch, the 3 you mention in the OP were rubbish. Best players on the night were the experienced ones such as Walker, Shaw, Maguire, Stones, Kane and Sterling who played almost 90 minutes of every game. Henderson clearly not match fit and hardly touched the ball. Rice and Phillips were the best of the relative newcomers but Mount was disappointing.


Kane and Sterling were poor yesterday, and virtually not in the game. Not that it was totally their fault given how little of the ball we had.

And it's much harder to shine when you come on for like 15 minutes a game, none of those in OP were really given a chance.

Report n88uk July 12, 2021 10:24 AM BST
Also collectively the defence might look great, but what is it achieving in the bigger context? A defence is going to look great if you put 8 defensive players on the pitch. Rice and Phillips are the biggest trap on the pitch, they can't get the ball up the pitch, can't pass through the lines, that is a huge part of England's problem.
Report snowynoon July 12, 2021 10:26 AM BST
Southgate ,at the moment ,does seem uncriticisable for some reason by the media ,and he will definately be given at least one more major tournament .However ,he wont keep getting the luck of the draw in these tournaments ,and his negative team selections and style of play will have to change ,all the young attacking talent is wasted under this manager ,sitting on the bench,fill the team with defensive players ,7 last night .and the 2 forward players have to come deeper and deeper to get the ball ,its a deeply flawed plan ,and as for picking a 19 year old who has NEVER taking a penalty for his club to take the most important pen ,thats almost beyond belief ,but ,again ,no criticism from the media.
Report n88uk July 12, 2021 10:28 AM BST
Mount was poor and anonymous, but part of the problem is personnel around him. At Chelsea Mount isn't expected to create everything from midfield, as those around him can actually pass, at England he is, he isn't the type of player to constantly demand the ball, he wants to run in space and receive the ball, our players not good enough to get it to him though vs the likes of Jorginho at Chelsea.
Report portmanpark July 12, 2021 11:04 AM BST
agree with snowy....just too negative...if he had picked a more attacking side then I dont think anyone could moan
Report howard July 12, 2021 11:12 AM BST
That's why Grealish should have played instead of Mount or at least replaced him after 45 minutes. All the good subs we had yet Italy used theirs way before us. As said we bring on a non-fit Henderson. Good stuff from Lurka on this thread. Kane is a world class finisher. City will be glad to pay 100m +
Report lurka July 12, 2021 11:13 AM BST
Italy dominated midfield in every game apart from Spain. Mancini went toe to toe with Spain in midfield but when he saw how good Spain were at retaining the ball, pressing Italy when they won it back and had Olmo dropping in as a false 9 to outnumber them, he immediately changed tactics to getting men behind the ball and played counter-attack instead, which they scored from. Pedri had a 100% pass rate in the 90 mins and a lot of his passes were vertical line-breakers that caused Italy problems.

Southgate doesn't have that in his locker. Not really something you can just switch to on the night if you haven't worked on it in training with your players either. He is up against managers with huge experience of working day to day with top players for years and learning from mistakes and tweaking tactics etc. There is nothing he could have done on the night and changing personnel bringing on the likes of Grealish wasn't going to make any difference if he didn't change it up tactically.
Report irishone July 12, 2021 11:23 AM BST
Southgate has got friends in high places
Blaring out the national anthem behind his future majesty in the Royal box
The BBT brigade (blazers, badges and ties) wont sack him now
They were stupid enough to employ him !
Hes lost a lot of kudos worldwide and in the dressing room
....but his continual r s licking of the BBTs will keep him in the role
Report ffaith July 12, 2021 11:48 AM BST
The only saving grace to playing Maureen/Simeone type football is winning.  We've got 4 or 5 players who can run with the ball and take on defenders.  Possibly only the french have better options in terms of attack.  I think the way Southgate sets up england borders on the criminal.  He will probably get a knighthood and a long contract though that's how our corrupt, crony system works
Report kincsem July 12, 2021 11:56 AM BST
Blow, blow, thou winter wind,
Thou art not so unkind
As man’s ingratitude;
Report leazes67 July 12, 2021 12:17 PM BST
How did Southgate get the job?I can't remember i know fat Sam was there but did Southgate put himself forward?
Report elisjohn July 12, 2021 12:26 PM BST
didnt he come in as an intrim manager won a few games and got the job
Report n88uk July 12, 2021 12:39 PM BST
Southgate was U21 manager at the time, believed to fit the profile of coming through the ages that England wanted at a time we were believed to have a strong group of youngsters (which was later proven true by all their success in 2017).
Report Emitdeb July 12, 2021 12:47 PM BST
We have a crop of players that are able to win a World cup...

We will win nothing with Southgate in charge.
Report mega88 July 12, 2021 1:34 PM BST
Doesn't matter what manager you have, england ain't winning a world cup anytime soon. Just enjoy the games on offer and the talent from each team.
Report REDROB July 12, 2021 2:53 PM BST
Manager and players not good enough.

Go back 15 years.

neville, ashley cole, ferdinand, terry, gerard, scholes, Lampard, beckham, rooney, owen. How many of those would have got in yesterdays team ? and they couldnt win anything, so why expect the inferior current crop to ?

Tactics have ruined the game, all this defend as a team, attack as a team is cobblers. Defenders defend, attackers attack end of. Pep's proved himself to be a great manager, brought the pressing game here but it seems to have put a stop to the cut and thrust of end to end attacking football.

Stats also greatly misrepresent how a game will end up, often the stats for possesion are misleading as more times than not the possesion is in a teams own half of the field.

And this defending a lead is carp as well, much better to defend a 2 or 3 goal lead than a 1-0.

I was lucky enough to see England win a world cup, hope some of you will see the same some day as I'm sure I wont again Happy
Report Deptford July 12, 2021 6:49 PM BST
A very good write up on Sporting Life by Jake Osgathorpe, spot on.
Report REDROB July 12, 2021 6:58 PM BST
^^ wrote a lot of sense.
Report Mr Spock July 12, 2021 7:21 PM BST
Has won nothing of any note as a player or manager (not always a requirement I know) but winners have a winning mentality. Southgates first plan is not to get beat, we had Italy on the backfoot for a while after the goal and we sat back and eventually knew Italy would come back into it. Once it went to extra time it was enevitable what the conclusion would be.
Report wolf3011 July 12, 2021 7:26 PM BST

Jul 12, 2021 -- 8:53AM, REDROB wrote:


Manager and players not good enough. Go back 15 years.neville, ashley cole, ferdinand, terry, gerard, scholes, Lampard, beckham, rooney, owen. How many of those would have got in yesterdays team ? and they couldnt win anything, so why expect the inferior current crop to ? Tactics have ruined the game, all this defend as a team, attack as a team is cobblers. Defenders defend, attackers attack end of. Pep's proved himself to be a great manager, brought the pressing game here but it seems to have put a stop to the cut and thrust of end to end attacking football. Stats also greatly misrepresent how a game will end up, often the stats for possesion are misleading as more times than not the possesion is in a teams own half of the field.And this defending a lead is carp as well, much better to defend a 2 or 3 goal lead than a 1-0. I was lucky enough to see England win a world cup, hope some of you will see the same some day as I'm sure I wont again


Yet pep the " great manager " hasnt won the champions league with city, how poor is that? There is so much over analysis of 22 guys kicking a ball around a patch of grass it's laughable with the fine lines that can go either way.. if England nick a goal in the 2nd half or win a penalty shootout which is a lottery then Southgate is the best manager since Ramsay but now he isn't good enough etc.

Report slickster July 13, 2021 8:08 AM BST
Southgate out of his depth. Relies on set pieces to bludgeon his way over the line. Proved totally inept in the final. Got found out at last.
Report kincsem July 13, 2021 9:10 AM BST
Italy dug in and dominated the second half.
They made England chase around after the ball.
Their skills were a level above England.
England did not sit back and try to protect their lead.
It wasn't tactics that changed the match, it was players.
Comments about "letting the handbrake off" and playing with freedom - fantasy stuff.
You play as well as the opposition let you play.
Report jumper3 July 13, 2021 9:53 AM BST
Southgate has brought England much further than any other manager since Alf Ramsey. However, after leading in firstly a World Cup semi and then 3 years later in their next tournament, but actually in the Euros final itself, subsequently going on to lose both matches, one has to ask genuine questions - which I'm sure Southgate and those around him are asking now. If England give more of the same in the World Cup, going out in the later stages and god forbid after leading in a game, then, yes, he should be given his cards.

The expectation now is for England to get as far as the World Cup semis. If they don't get that far, it's probably also curtains for Southgate. No easy task, when you also throw in a few African teams and the might South America has to offer. Meanwhile, we'll get more of the same. England coasting through the qualification stage without too much trouble.
Report Dr Crippen July 13, 2021 10:15 AM BST
I agree with kincsem.

I think England were lucky to get as far as a penalty shootout.
Report kincsem July 13, 2021 10:23 AM BST
I might re-read my Alf Ramsey biography from a third time.
He was unique.
After a game Bobby Moore said when leaving the dressing room "See you in two weeks, Alf".
Alf Ramsey "Will you?"
Report Whisperingdeath July 13, 2021 11:29 AM BST
Most of the criticisms of Southgate have been stated and repeated on here since the start of the Tournament. It’s not rocket science. I just hope he realises where the strength of his team lies and trust his young players. We do not need 7 defenders!
Report Blackrock July 13, 2021 12:01 PM BST
Football always seems about the end result. You win 1-0 therefore you were the better team and deserved your success. Not really the truth is it?

Under GS lost to a decent Belgium team in the World Cup. Played some average sides and got to semi. Lost to another average team despite leading.

Euro 2020. Was in a group that England had to qualify from and did so without setting the world alight. Dour ,defensive football was the order of the day. Played Germany. We won but the Germans missed 2 guilt edged chances. Result could easily have been different. Beat a poor Ukraine team and struggled against the Danes, going to extra time and winning on a very dodgy pen.

Go 1-0 up in final and lose to a pretty decent team. But Southgate never reacted to what he was watching. Italy dominated more and more and an equaliser was on the cards. Still no game plan change or subs. Bringing 2 lads on to take pens when basically they are stone cold was a huge ask of these lads.

So, as we got to the final most people seem happy and think Southgate has done a great job. With the talent at our disposal sitting on the bench, getting to the final was a minimum requirement.

No he hasn't done a great job. He has to change his style if we are to compete at the next WC. Not sure he is capable of that.
Report ffaith July 13, 2021 12:37 PM BST
Excellent concise post Blackrock
Report HistoricWarwick July 13, 2021 1:02 PM BST
Blackrock, would you come to the same conclusion if we scored one more penalty than the Italians as ultimately it was down to fine lines.  Agreed he is tactically naive and defensively minded but, they got to the final with a weak attacking threat compared to most other top nations.  Kane & Sterling are run of the mill in my opinion but, expectations of the final minimum is where Southgate has move the bar - not by the quality of players but, by change of mentality, tactics and teamwork.
Report lurka July 13, 2021 1:17 PM BST
A lot of people were saying what Blackrock did throughout the tournament. Winning a shootout wouldn't have any effect on how England have played.

The final panned out like the WC semi after England scored. Most people could see the equaliser coming for 10 mins in both games.

He has no central midfield this time. This is why you have a weak attacking threat. No point in having Kane, Sterling, Grealish etc on the pitch if you can't get the ball or if your entire team including Kane and Sterling are defending 35 yards from their own goal before half-time against the only top side you had to play. In footballing terms he has taken a retrograde step and is a big problem for England going forward.
Report lurka July 13, 2021 1:21 PM BST
It's not far off a 8-0-3 formation, doesn't get shown up by inferior sides tho. Not likely to avoid all the big guns for a third time in a row and won't have home advantage again for a long time.

Get Bellingham into that midfield for starters. You can play the way he does against a top side if you are ahead with 15 mins left.
Report LoyalHoncho July 13, 2021 2:03 PM BST
In general kincsem I agree with you but not this time.  The match reminded me of Everton's FA Cup Semi final against Liverpool a few years back, when David Moyes was in charge.  Everton 1-0 up early on (and still at half time ) and instead of going for the jugular Moyes had his players doing the same safety-first type stuff, which let an on-the-ropes Liverpool back into the game.  Result much the same - disappointment.
Southgate blew it - it's as simple as that.  After an hour of England not pressing home their advantage, Kane dropping back and Sterling doing absolutely nothing Italy got a foothold.
The two favourites not even reaching the semis, Germany despatched with some authority, the final AT HOME and it was there to be won and Southgate blew it.  England will never again get such a glorious opportunity.
Report LoyalHoncho July 13, 2021 2:08 PM BST
Great point about possession stats REDROB12 Jul 21 13:53
They should change their way of assessing posi and have two cats. - defence half posi and attack half posi.  can't be that hard to achieve with modern day tech. facilities.
Report Whisperingdeath July 13, 2021 2:33 PM BST
England will never again get such a glorious opportunity.

Certainly not until next Autumn when they are all a year older and wiser!
Report kincsem July 13, 2021 2:56 PM BST
LoyalHoncho
No problem with disagreement.

If England had an opportunity to win it the ten or fifteen minutes after Shaw scored was the time.
Italy were a bit uncertain what to do, and England let them play it around until they settled.
Just my opinion.
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