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03 May 21 00:47
Date Joined: 27 May 11
| Topic/replies: 15,619 | Blogger: scandanavian_haven's blog
the 3 clubs he's been at were all over ready with a blank cheque book waiting for him on the table, imagine walking into your first proper job and you have Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Eto'o and Henry, then taking over treble winning European champions in your second job (and not winning the European cup) where it's impossible not to win the Bundesliga in a 1 team league, and then the wealthiest club side in the world, spending over 1 billion on players coinciding with United and Arsenal's demise.

more like the luckiest manager of all time. Alex Ferguson's first proper job was at East Stirlingshire followed by St Mirren, then Aberdeen. Pound for pound Pep's not even close to the best but the media will not let you think otherwise.
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Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- May 3, 2021 12:35 PM BST
They stopped the goalie picking up
back passes as it was boring.

300 passes without getting out of
yer own half should see tika taka
stifled by adding a shot clock
as in basketball.
Report rommel May 3, 2021 12:41 PM BST
lurka-nowt revolutionary about pressing the oppo to get that ball back
Report thelatarps May 3, 2021 12:48 PM BST
I think this time of the season City are going to be playing a lot of teams who have little reason to turn up and perform.
Those games are horrible to watch.
Earlier in the season teams were having a go at city and some were successful.
I have no argument with peps barca team of 2009 and his city team of 2018.
But it does seem to me they have been coasting this year. Maybe because of the covid situation. Its been a pretty shocking season in the epl i feel. VAr doesnt help, either.
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B May 3, 2021 12:48 PM BST
Still no one can answer me.

Would he win the league every year at say Exeter City culminating in a Premiership win and Champions League success with the Exeter players that are there now?  In other words he can't buy Messi, Ronaldo, De Bruyne, Mbappe, VVD etc etc?

Three massive clubs, MASSIVE clubs he's managed with all of their top quality star players.  Not that difficuilt is it.

We can all see my team (United) need a top Centre Forward for instance, we can all see someone like Harry Kane would fit the bill.  Not rocket science is it yet we're not managers.
Report Aspro May 3, 2021 1:02 PM BST
I think that question may have been answered with his time with the 'B' team. A team of wannabe's that he eventually turned into arguably the best team ever; many of them raised, not bought. Keep up Lou.
Report scandanavian_haven May 3, 2021 1:07 PM BST
He has had 1 season without "the best players" - he won the league with Barcelona B team, I'm sure someone will pick holes in that but they'd just finished 19th the season before.

is this a joke, this is why I said the word 'proper' job, when he took over Barcelona B team they were in the fourth tier of Spanish football, below the semi professional 3rd tier they had been relegated from the previous season, so hardly impressive they went from 19th in the 3rd to 1st in the 4th.

Ferguson is great but he does not hold the record for most PL points in a season, biggest winning margin, most goals in a season.

Ferguson didn't care about those things, Pep did because of his ego, he sees those feats as trophies in itself, Guardiola at City has two first teams within his squad that would be top 4 teams with the money they have spent so it's hardly surprising to break records when you can afford to play without the Argentinian and Brazilian centre forward. United spent more than other teams but they spent within their means and relied more on home grown players which is far more impressive.

Those who consistently try and put Pep down either have an agenda, or simply aren't able to process properly how good the football is that they are watching

possession football is tedious.

Nobody is saying that Guardiola is not a great coach, he obviously is, even Zlatan who can't stand him says he was a great coach, that's not in question, what is, is the 'greatest' part, which is nonsense, you given all the riches he's had to other top managers and records would be the same or better. His first proper job was at the top table, the likes of Mourinho and Ferguson had to work their way up from bottom to top, Mourinho won 2 Champions League titles with teams that were not even close to being favourites.
Report lurka May 3, 2021 3:05 PM BST
I didn't say there was anything revolutionary about pressing. Ian Rush and Ireland under Jack Charlton used to do it.

But his method was much more advanced and on another level. Worked on for months/years on the training ground and nobody else who pressed were able to stop the best teams from playing, that's the difference. That was genius but doesn't make him the best ever. He is quite one dimensional and doesn't really have a plan B if A isn't working. Also has hampered his teams in big games by trying to be too clever, often against inferior opposition when he shouldn't be worried about them.
Report tobermory May 3, 2021 4:03 PM BST
Obviously Pep wouldn't win the league with Exeter and he'd probably get relegated with Burnley.

If I was a Burnley fan I'd rather have Dyche than Pep. Imagine 8 Burnley players constantly pressing and tiki takaing on the edge of the box... the other team would be walking it into the net because journeyman players cannot keep circulating the ball like Xavi/Iniesta.

But if I was a City fan I sure would not want Dyche.

So it depends what level players you have or can afford.

If you have top level players then Pep or Klopp is who you want in charge. Because to be winning titles you need to win 70% of your games, and to do this you need to dominate 3/4 of the games you play. A manager who is looking to 'keep it tight' and get a header from a set piece is gonna have mostly close games if the gameplan is well executed, and it isn't credible that they are gonna get two dozen 1-0 wins and only four or five 0-1s.

And hardly any managers vary their approach based on the level of job. A header from set pieces merchant will still try that at Real Madrid.

Moyes was the proof. A cautious 'make it difficult for Newcastle' gameplan at Everton, and the same at Man United.

That's why Dyche won't get a top job but Brendan Rodgers did. People could see his approach at Swansea - scaled up in terms of player quality - could be transferable to the highest level.
Report Giuseppe May 3, 2021 4:09 PM BST
he won 21 games in a row this season

surely that's some type of record

on the other hand he hasn't won the CL since he left Barcelona
Report Giuseppe May 3, 2021 4:11 PM BST
the team he had at barcelona was probably the greatest spanish club side ever

he also didn't sign the key players, they were already there

messi, the greatest player ever

iniesta and xavi, possibly the greatest spanish players ever

he had messi and half the spanish national team (which won three tournaments back to back)
Report Giuseppe May 3, 2021 4:14 PM BST
"Mourinho,s greatest achievement was probably at Porto "

I think Mourinho did pretty well at Madrid, they were able to compete with that ridiculously talented Barcelona side
Report duffy May 3, 2021 4:53 PM BST
PorcupineorPineapple 03 May 21 11:12 
Pep's got to be up there, if only for creating probably the best side this planet's ever seen.

Absolutely, never seen anything like it truly great side.

His problem is that he didn't see or do anything about it when it was becoming clear that the team had fallen off its perch, hence you got the defence brutally exposed which led to hammerings in Europe to the german sides we saw.

Even now his City side dominant possession but often struggle somewhat to break sides down as they just don't move the ball as quick as Pep is searching for.
Report A_T May 3, 2021 5:07 PM BST
not lucky but nowhere near the best mamager ever - had limitless money at City but achievements no better than their previous managers
Report scandanavian_haven May 3, 2021 5:11 PM BST
they weren't the greatest club side ever, the recent Real Madrid team has more of a case for that, they won 3 Champions Leagues in a row when no team before had even won 2.
Report Giuseppe May 3, 2021 5:14 PM BST
they didn't win domestically though

at it's peak that barcelona team was awesome

up there with capello's milan and lippi's juventus
Report Giuseppe May 3, 2021 5:15 PM BST
"no team before had even won 2." Confused
Report duffy May 3, 2021 5:19 PM BST
The speed with which they passed the ball and accurately so even with players on them and how they suffocated teams with their press.

Best club side ever, it's not even close.
Report Giuseppe May 3, 2021 5:22 PM BST
early 90s Milan would give them a good game

that is the closest I've seen to an invincible team
Report sofaking May 3, 2021 5:30 PM BST

May 3, 2021 -- 11:15AM, Giuseppe wrote:

"no team before had even won 2."

in a row.

Report Giuseppe May 3, 2021 5:33 PM BST
is this like the "premier league" records? football began when they changed the name of the competition?
Report Giuseppe May 3, 2021 5:34 PM BST
Madrid won five in a row

Ajax and Bayern both won three in a row
Report GAZO May 3, 2021 5:36 PM BST
ajax and bayern must have been decent teams in the early 70's as holland and germany which made up most of those teams contested the 74 world cup final
Report Giuseppe May 3, 2021 5:41 PM BST
the Dutch were **** until about 1970

then out of nowhere they suddenly had the best national team, the best club side (Ajax) and the best player (Cruyff) in the world

maybe the best coach too (Rinus Michels)

really remarkable turn of events
Report GAZO May 3, 2021 5:45 PM BST
wasnt it called 'total football' or something like that
Report Giuseppe May 3, 2021 5:47 PM BST

big upset when they lost to w germany in 1974 final

hungary 54, holland 74 and brazil 82 probably the best teams to never win the world cup
Report GAZO May 3, 2021 5:52 PM BST
germany were a quality team at the time,mostly bayern players who like you have already put won three euro cups after ajax in mid 70's
Report Giuseppe May 3, 2021 5:58 PM BST
yes germany had beckenbauer and gerd muller around that time

6 of the 1974 WC winning team played for bayern
Report Giuseppe May 3, 2021 5:59 PM BST
6 of the starting XI
Report Giuseppe May 3, 2021 6:01 PM BST
6 of the Dutch were Ajax players

very much the Ajax Bayern final
Report Flemenstar May 3, 2021 6:10 PM BST
is it any fault of Guardiola that he didn't have to start at the bottom though? It shouldn't be something to hold against him.

If anything, look at the chancers that get given top jobs straight off the bat and fail to swim, and sink into mediocrity.

re: the PL records - just because SAF didn't target them didn't mean they weren't there to be won. He could have won them by accident, and yet it never happened. Even Mourinho's Chelsea 1st time round got a higher pts total than any United side of the PL era

Fortunately this is a betting forum and as such we can use ratings and closing prices to accurately rate teams and hopefully it make a bit of sense - I can't use this argument down the pub, however the markets tell me this City side is one of the best club sides of all time, and hopefully they get a CL to shut up all the Pep doubters. He deserves another CL as his sides have been a joy to watch for the past decade
Report Giuseppe May 3, 2021 6:12 PM BST
longevity surely a yardstick to measure managers by too

klopp has won one PL title and some people think he may already be finnish
Report Giuseppe May 3, 2021 6:13 PM BST
as a neutral i don't enjoy seeing the richest teams win, i don't care how good the football is
Report duffy May 3, 2021 6:16 PM BST
Can a team be good and boring at the same time because that's what this City side are for me.

They are incapable of cutting through sides at will but instead rely on the opposition to tire before an opening occurs.

Not a Liverpool fan but their side last year were different gravy to this years City side.
Report scandanavian_haven May 3, 2021 6:41 PM BST
A team that couldn't win 2 Champions League titles back to back is the best ever? Laugh
Jesus, if they were THAT good, they would have done, but Chelsea and Inter beat them.

They passed the ball to death, killing games, the football was boring, but it was not impregnable, just took time to be worked out.

Fergie had zero interest in ego chasing records like total points, it was all about winning the title, and as said, it was easy to achieve those points and goals feat in Peps era, they were taken over by billionaires and they spent like billionaires hence the results, people tripping over themselves to lavish praise on that is laughable.
Report scandanavian_haven May 3, 2021 6:44 PM BST
Pep's squad with Man City was far more set up to achieve records than United's squad back then, and then you add the fact that City were chasing them, Pep was literally celebrating Jesus's goal that clinched 100 pts, it was embarrassing, the league was won.
Report Capt__F May 3, 2021 9:14 PM BST
pep spits too much for me
bit like the fake italian Gui
Report Giuseppe May 3, 2021 9:19 PM BST
please spell my name correctly, grazie
Report Capt__F May 3, 2021 9:23 PM BST

Report Giuseppe May 3, 2021 9:26 PM BST
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B May 3, 2021 10:37 PM BST
I don't particularly doubt Pep he's obviously done fantasticly well there's not much more he could do.  I'm just saying that at three massive clubs like that with all of the money behind them it's not that hard and I'd like to see him do it at say Doncaster Rovers with their current crop of players.
Report Flemenstar May 4, 2021 12:44 AM BST
he has earned the right to work with the best teams.

City deserve more praise than they get on this forum. Scandi_haven must be a United fan the way he's carrying on.

Nobody sets up to achieve records - they are a happy accident. For Pep I'm sure it's about winning the title too, and yet he's managed to win it in spectacular fashion multiple times now.

Even if we say Pep has spent fortunes - how come United never got near to what Mourinho's Chelsea tallied? It's not about Fergie having zero interest unless you're telling me he dropped points on purpose - they literally couldn't get that many points in however many tries across different points in the PL era.
Report Giuseppe May 4, 2021 1:00 AM BST
"he has earned the right to work with the best teams."

he spent a year with Barcelona B in the fourth division before being given the first team job
Report Giuseppe May 4, 2021 1:00 AM BST
that was his only managerial experience
Report Giuseppe May 4, 2021 1:05 AM BST
i reckon i could have won the champions league at least once with that squad
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B May 4, 2021 7:52 AM BST
It's like say Gerrard at Rangers.  Great manager ............. or the manager of the winning 'Horse' in a two horse race?  Once again, you and I could win that league couldn't we or at least half of us could if we split ourselves managing the only two 'horses' in the race?

Zidane similarly went into management at arguably the biggest team (certainly one of the top three anyway) in the world with all of their funds and star players.  Not that difficult is it.  Would he have won the league with Elche or Eibar?
Report Flemenstar May 4, 2021 9:37 AM BST
look at Lampard - wasn't able to properly get his views across to his players, they were clueless as to what he expected from them. Lampard will now have to start again and build his reputation up

Guardiola managed to not only instil a brand new ethos into the top players at Barcelona but also win every trophy that there was to win

if winning the league with a sh*t team is the bench mark then is Ranieri the best of all time?
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B May 4, 2021 10:31 AM BST
Lampard never did bad at Chelsea but again they are a big club with better players so much much easier than doing the same thing at Leyton Orient.

If you or I were City manager could we put this team up on the board and let them go out and get on with it?


Would they suddenly not be good players just because I wrote their names up on the board?  If they then went out and played West Brom would they suddenly not win because I wrote their names instead of Pep?

He's got the best players, if he were manager at Leyton Orient he wouldn't have simple as that.
Report GAZO May 4, 2021 10:42 AM BST
so you wouldnt class fergie or paisley as great managers,they just had the best players and sent them out to get on with it ?
Report tobermory May 4, 2021 10:58 AM BST
Don't understand why 3rd division teams getting mentioned.

Obviously no one is going to win the league with them.

The point is Pep does  better with top players than other managers do.

Mancini and Pellegrini had hundreds of millions to spend and won 2 titles out of 6. Pep has 3 out of 5.

Other managers could have won titles with Barcelona, but there is a difference between winning things and making them the best team ever.
Report scandanavian_haven May 4, 2021 11:10 AM BST
it's laughable to say that those records were Happy accidentsLaugh, Pep set out to achieve those record, he has assembled the most expensive squad in football history, he should be achieving those feats, do you not think that the likes of Ferguson would have achieved a few more points if they had the same luxury, difference is the mentality then and now are different, then it was just about titles, now records are seen as titles as Pep thinks he has to do something more to justify his expenditure.

They started off on different platforms, AF walked into a European ban on English football, there were practically no foreign footballers in the league bar the Irish, AF had to rebuild for years, they had not won the league or European cup for nearly 20 years when he took over, Barcelona were league and European champions 2 years before Pep joined.

I don't see how managing a B team in the 4th tier of Spanish football in a semi pro league entitles you to suddenly start working with the best teams.

At Bayern, he took over the treble winners, yet he never matched the previous managers feat, no European cup final, not even matching the points total in Heynecks last season, as you seem  to value this so much.

With the money they've spent and the squad that they can rotate, it's ridiculous to give so much praise for then being able to break records. In the old days you would not have been able to afford to just drop Sterling or Aguero or Jesus, or rest De Bruyne, but now you can.

Lampard like most Chelsea managers have players foisted onto them, don't think he wanted Havertz or Werner which is why he was benching them, then the hierarchy brought in a German to get the best out of the 140m+ players the club bought.

don't support United, but I'm guessing you support City by the same token.
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B May 4, 2021 11:16 AM BST

Pretty much yes.  I honestly think you or I could 'Manage' the City team as from a pool of about 16 or 17 top players it doesn't really matter which ones you pick.

I've said many times on here a typical Fergie team had better players than the crip we have now.  NOT ONE of the current United team would get into a Fergie team as like for like their counterpart would be better.  NOT ONE.

Therefore what more could OGS do than pick the best at his disposal.  Give us Haaland or Kane up front and we'd be better.  Give us VVD for Maguire and we'd be better.  Give us Mbappe for Rashford and we'd be better. Etc etc.
Report GAZO May 4, 2021 11:44 AM BST
he has made those 16 or 17 top players into a very talented pretty equal squad so swapping and changeing wont effect them so much,they have recruited very well and although they have spent lots look what he has got for his money compared to man united,i dont think city have spent more on one player than pogba and wasnt maguire the most expensive defender ever at the time
Report Rider May 4, 2021 12:01 PM BST
so guardiola comes to england in his mid forties and dominates, anyone 100% sure fergie would have done the same if he had moved to real madrid?

its possible but unlikely I think
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B May 4, 2021 12:21 PM BST
With Real Madrid's players? .......... yes of course.  I could have done the same with that lot!
Report scandanavian_haven May 4, 2021 12:27 PM BST
with a net spend of about 750 mil in 5 years, I think he would have done alright.
Report Giuseppe May 4, 2021 1:41 PM BST
"The point is Pep does  better with top players than other managers do."

he didn't win the CL with Bayern and hasn't won it with City either
Report Aspro May 4, 2021 1:57 PM BST
It took Fergie 12/13 years before he won it
Report Giuseppe May 4, 2021 2:04 PM BST
fergie had to build a team

guardiola was handed half the spanish national team and messi
Report Giuseppe May 4, 2021 2:04 PM BST
utd didn't even play in the CL for a lot of those 12/13 years
Report Giuseppe May 4, 2021 2:06 PM BST
utd hadn't won the league in 20 odd years when fergie took over
Report Aspro May 4, 2021 2:06 PM BST
Just saying Plain
Report Giuseppe May 4, 2021 2:07 PM BST
fergie also won league titles (and a european trophy) with aberdeen

i'd like to see pep do that
Report scandanavian_haven May 4, 2021 2:10 PM BST
it was more like 7 years, first 4 years English teams were banned from Europe, Leeds won title in 92 when it was Champions only, in Pep's first season they won the CL at Barca but they had finished 3rd the previous season so another advantage. English clubs were dominating Europe in the late 70s and ear 80's, it took time to catch back up.
Report Giuseppe May 4, 2021 2:16 PM BST
i don't think europe was fergie's strong point

utd were second best against both bayern and chelsea in my opinion

he still got the trophy though
Report Giuseppe May 4, 2021 2:17 PM BST
he won the cup winners cup with utd too, 92 i think, long before he won the CL
Report Giuseppe May 4, 2021 2:18 PM BST
so won the cup winner's cup twice with two different teams

guardiola on the other hand won promotion to the spanish third division with barcelona b Crazy
Report GAZO May 4, 2021 2:41 PM BST
just for this thread,please let PSG knock man city out tonightLaugh
Report ribero1 May 4, 2021 3:23 PM BST
Whilst City spend obscene amounts of money they still don't have the control or domination of the transfer market that Ferguson was allowed,Arsenal bought a few Frenchmen and whilst in later years Chelsea entered the fray but that was basically it,anyone in the English game they could generally have,much harder nowadays for anybody.
Report ffaith May 4, 2021 5:59 PM BST
I rate Klopp as a better manager than the spaniard.  To go head to head with Guardiola's men while at the same time nearly balancing your budget is incredible
Report sixtwosix May 4, 2021 7:01 PM BST
Managed Messi , Xavi and Iniesta ....FC Hollywood and the oil squillionares ....... big deal.
Report Flemenstar May 4, 2021 7:08 PM BST
of course they were happy accidents, you set out to win every game, Pep's City won more than most. Otherwise you are telling me SAF's United pulled up in a few games to save their legs? I'm not having that - they simply could not get near the high 90s watermark that even Jose set.

you are definitely a United fan - I've seen you crowing about ABUs etc, especially when United hit the front in January. I'm not a City fan but I really enjoy this team, mainly because they are the only team able to stand between Liverpool and the title in a usual season

United may have won a couple of CL trophies under SAF but he definitely underperformed in Europe. Had more than his fair share of poor results in the knockout stages similar to Pep
Report PorcupineorPineapple May 4, 2021 7:14 PM BST
Love the idea other managers just weren't bothered about getting records. Ferguson could have done it. Yeah, course he could. He just wasn't bothered. Yeah, that's it.
Report scandanavian_haven May 4, 2021 7:18 PM BST
I'm not a United fan, I just started off using Fergie as an example of a manger who came through the hard way, never have everything laid on a plate for him and climbed his way to the top, rather than ready made success. I'm using an contrast, you're defending Pep vigorously so I'm assuming you're a City fan ?

They werent happy accidents, which is a bit of a cringy phrase, he targeted them.

in 2018, City were nearly 20 points ahead of second, they were on 97 points, last game of the season, Jesus scores to make it 100 pts, and Pep starts celebrating like a mad man as if he's just won the Champions League,, it was embarrassing to watch.

The fact is he's had 3 of the easiest jobs in football history, taking over a team that had Messi, Xavi, Initesta, Eto'o and Henry, he could even afford to sign Ibra than sell him after a year, then the treble winners, then the richest club in the world, you seem to be led by the media who control these sorts of narratives.
Report PorcupineorPineapple May 4, 2021 7:23 PM BST
Why wouldn't you want to get 100 points?
Report scandanavian_haven May 4, 2021 7:25 PM BST
because you don't get a trophy for it.
Report PorcupineorPineapple May 4, 2021 7:27 PM BST
So? You wrap up the league, that's a by-product. Why would you deliberately avoid getting it?
Report scandanavian_haven May 4, 2021 7:28 PM BST
he was talking about reaching 100 pts for ages, and 100 goals, it was a long term aim, not a sudden occurrence that he was on 97
Report PorcupineorPineapple May 4, 2021 7:30 PM BST
Again, I don't understand why it's a bad thing.
Report scandanavian_haven May 4, 2021 7:33 PM BST
it's not, it's that it was being used an example of why he's so great, if you target 100 pts with the most expensive squads ever assembled it's not that amazing.

winning the treble is probably the most impressive achievement, I think he did that at Barca, but again, starting at the very top.
Report PorcupineorPineapple May 4, 2021 7:37 PM BST
Again, I think the fact that other managers have failed to reach it, isn't proof they weren't aiming for it. Winning the title with 100 points is a bigger achievement than with 90 imo. It's not huge but the fact we're talking about it now shows it's not meaningless, even if fans of local rivals seem to have had their noses put out of joint by it.

To be honest, if they hadn't blown up so badly last season and maybe had another 100 point season and pipped Liverpool, then there'd probably be a good claim to say the current City side is the finest this country's seen. But it happened and was a real black mark. He'd need to build on this season's dominance and have another couple or so for that I reckon.
Report scandanavian_haven May 4, 2021 7:43 PM BST
the only reason I'm talking about it is because it was brought up and used as a defence, which as said in previous is not impressive. It's the same with Arsenal in 2004, they were in the end aiming to go unbeaten when the title was already won, which is not a bad thing but doesn't enhance that team's greatness.
At the beginning of the season you set out, if you're one of the big clubs, to win all the big trophies, only SAF has won the league and Champions League double, that side is best side there's been in the PL because of that. Not a team that, until now, fails in Europe every year, though this year has to be their year, if not Pep should resign.
Report PorcupineorPineapple May 4, 2021 7:46 PM BST
Weird. You also think going unbeaten is worthless. So that's both City and Arsenal's achievements you're so keen to do down. But you think the treble is great. If only someone could guess who you support.
Report scandanavian_haven May 4, 2021 7:51 PM BST
not for the first time PoP you are putting words in my mouth, where did I say it was worthless? answers on a postcard.
Report scandanavian_haven May 4, 2021 7:52 PM BST
been on this forum 10 years, don't think I've ever posted on the United thread let alone support them.

and same could say to you, you're a Liverpool fan trying to lessen United's achievement shockerWink
Report PorcupineorPineapple May 4, 2021 8:36 PM BST
I'm not trying to lessen it, I'm pointing out how odd it is that you value one achievement and decry others.

FWIW, I think people need to remember that the CL is a cup comp. It's obvious to everyone that Bayern are a better team than PSG, but they played one poor game and they're out. Similarly, if PSG were to turn this around and win the cup they could simultaneously claim to be the best team in Europe yet only the second best in France.
Cups rely on luck and on hitting form at the right moment. Liverpool were undoubtedly lucky in Istanbul and Milan were the better team for the vast majority of the game. Also fairly lucky in Madrid when Mané clearly won the penalty by kicking the ball at the defender's arm and then the team just defending the lead. And yes, the Utd treble had a couple of huge slices of luck along the way, most notably in the final when Bayern were miles better than them but two set pieces at the death did for them. So winning a cup or two along the way could be simply showing they've been the luckier team. Winning a higher % of games and more points only proves you're better, more consistent and more hungry. I'd still prefer to win the big cups as the moment, the celebrations are better and live in the fans' memories. But I'm not 100% sure they prove a side is better unequivocally.
Report scandanavian_haven May 4, 2021 8:41 PM BST
because the end game is trophies, that's the whole purpose of starting the season, not to clock up points you don't even need for aesthetic purposes, also, by the same token, you can equally talk about luck in the league, with injuries, decisions etc.
Report PorcupineorPineapple May 4, 2021 8:43 PM BST
What I would say though is that the game has changed massively and is far less competitive than it used to be in the 70's and 80's.

Someone made a rather surreal point about the Utd team dominating the transfer market moreso than this City one. I mean look at the strength of City's reserve line up at the weekend! Utd did have more money, but they also had more money under Docherty and Big Ron; they just bought ****. But the big change is the snapping up of all talent into the biggest leagues and clubs. Some fans sneer at the teams Liverpool beat back then, but they kept their best players and it was a much more even competition. You didn't get Bayern picking off any Bundesliga player who shows some form.  You didn't get top earners on the bench week in, week out.

So I do think one point to make about 100 pts etc, is that the league is far more imbalanced now than it used to be.

I used to be a footy compiler and remember Liverpool away at Swindon in maybe 96. There was a huge move on the reds, and we had to do the rarest thing of amending the printed weekend coupon, cutting them from Evs to 8/11. Nowadays, a similar match up would see them round 4/9.
Report PorcupineorPineapple May 4, 2021 8:50 PM BST
Gotta be after 96. 98 maybe.
Report tobermory May 4, 2021 9:22 PM BST
Swindon v Liverpool was opening day in 1993.
Report tobermory May 4, 2021 9:27 PM BST
The reason most title winners historically ‘don’t target 100pts’ is because their mathematical chance to do it is over by February, when they are only thinking about staying on top.

You have to be incredibly dominant just to think about 100pts.
Report scandanavian_haven May 4, 2021 9:33 PM BST
or egotistical.
Report PorcupineorPineapple May 4, 2021 9:34 PM BST
Aye, googled it and saw that. Remember McManaman ripping them to shreds that day.
Report TheBetterBettor May 4, 2021 9:39 PM BST
even alan ball could win the asterisk treble with arab money with citeh
Report Flemenstar May 4, 2021 10:00 PM BST
is egotistical a bad thing? Brian Clough was mentioned on page 1 and he was the biggest ego of the lot!
Report scandanavian_haven May 4, 2021 10:04 PM BST
Brian Clough turned water into wine, Pep had wine and just poured it into the cup, he spilt it a few times though Clough is held in higher esteem imo.
Report Capt__F May 4, 2021 10:24 PM BST
Now then young man
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B May 4, 2021 11:25 PM BST
Here's another instance about changing manager's.  The Great Pocchetino has taken over PSG from Tuchel ......... but they're absolutely no better?  But he's supposed to be a great manager isn't he?  How come he can't make them any better?

Hang on I've got it ................... Because it's the exact same eleven players as before, you know those blokes who are on the pitch ACTUALLY KICKING THE BALL.
Report themover May 4, 2021 11:55 PM BST
Depends the criteria you want to judge "the best manager in the world" by.

It was probably Johan Cruyff though Wink
Report Capt__F May 5, 2021 12:02 AM BST
gary neville imo
Report themover May 5, 2021 12:15 AM BST
Fond memories of his time at Valencia. Incredibly he had a higher win percentage record at Valenica than Koeman and Hiddink ShockedLaugh
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