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17 Oct 20 23:05
Date Joined: 02 Jul 20
| Topic/replies: 6,405 | Blogger: SeeMoreBusiness's blog
I am so glad they are doing this. Mr Klopp has agreed with me that they are also going to review, at the same time, the Brian Hamilton "handball/offside " in 1977 and Hansen's handball in 1984. The Everton parade with the League Cup, retrospectively awarded, will be conducted with social distancing.
Pause Switch to Standard View Liverpool review of VAR decisions
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Report Capt__F October 17, 2020 11:25 PM BST
bad ref decisions are now bad VAR decisions

no need for VAR imo not fit for purpose
Report SeeMoreBusiness October 17, 2020 11:34 PM BST
I'm an Everton fan through and through. Been battered by Derby results, in the main, my entire life. The "winner" was onside. Just wish that decision was in an important game. Hopefully the dodgy penalty in our favour  in the Champions League Final 2024 makes up for all my pain.  :-)
Report lurka October 17, 2020 11:41 PM BST
Apparently VAR did look at Pickford's challenge on VVD but didn't think the ref made a clear and obvious error and didn't even tell him to go look at it again.

They can't complain about the 'winner'. They are the rules as stupid as they are. If it's not clear and obvious to the naked eye it shouldn't be offside but that's not the case even though they don't have the tech to be certain due to framerates. Nobody asked for VAR for those decisions.
Report SeeMoreBusiness October 18, 2020 12:36 AM BST
but isn't the point that Pickford's "challenge" wasn't a pen because the liverpool bloke was off side? so ball "dead" as in cricket? For my own part, As an everton fan, I think it should have been Pickford yellow, pen to liverpool and, in any event,their winner was onside. You won't hear many liverpool fans being so honest. Not those over 60 years of age anyway given the decisions against us over all the years. I'd settle for every decision ever made in every Derby since 1970 subject to VAR.Liverpool would be in the 3rd division and we'd have more £ than Real Madrid!!!
Report LoyalHoncho October 18, 2020 1:46 AM BST
I like it SMB.  Grin
Report pushkin99 October 18, 2020 8:22 AM BST
VAR was not the problem yesterday, but incompetent application of VAR by officials that do not know or even understand the rules.

Pickford should have been sent off, this was not a problem with VAR, but its application (or non application) in this case by the officials at Stockly park.

Henderson's goal should have stood. VAR should be used to correct 'clear and obvious mistakes'. What part of Mane was offside? At worst Mane was level. Level is on-side. So there has been a second incompetent application of VAR by the officials at Stockly park.
Report pushkin99 October 18, 2020 8:24 AM BST
Glad u are being honest SMB regarding Henderson's goal.
Report morpteh mackem October 18, 2020 8:57 AM BST
the var official was david roofe, he's a ref , he reffed sunderland v peterborough about season and a half ago,  he is the worst ref i've ever seen and yesterday comes as no surprise ( well it does, he should have been struck off or demoted to sunday morning ). im sure his dad is high up in brummy fa.
Report pushkin99 October 18, 2020 9:40 AM BST
So, is it a case that the Official applying VAR yesterday was simply incompetent and clearly out of his depth?

Or are there other underlying reasons or contributory factors behind the decisions made?
Report morpteh mackem October 18, 2020 9:45 AM BST
think first point is correct, how the hell the var official never said to oliver,  'go and have a look at monitor and see what you think about pickfords challenge, i recommend a red card '.
Report pushkin99 October 18, 2020 9:46 AM BST
It may have been Liverpool yesterday, but it might be your team next.

What will your reaction be if your team is subject to TWO (NOT JUST ONE) wrong and incompetent decisions because VAR has been applied incorrectly?

These were not marginal cases of VAR interpretation that could have gone either way which I can accept.
Report pushkin99 October 18, 2020 9:48 AM BST
(that was not aimed at u mm by the way, but more generally)
Report brians October 18, 2020 9:50 AM BST
I think VAR is a good idea basically , if you look at the England Denmark game with no VAR the players were diving about like frogs in the penalty area . They were also feigning injury to get players booked or sent off, which they managed. The problem is that in the old days you had a half blind plonker on the pitch who didn't know the rules and now you have a half blind plonker in the studio who also doesn't know the rules.  Dumb and Dumber !
Report pushkin99 October 18, 2020 9:57 AM BST
Dumb and Dumber. Love it..................two half-wits making their way across the states seems like a very appropriate analogy.

That really made me LaughLaughLaugh

FWIW, on balance, I think we are better of with VAR than without, if and only if it is applied correctly and where appropriate. To eliminate the howlers. To overturn the clear and obvious mistakes. Of which, surely any fair minded footie supporter would agree with.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- October 18, 2020 10:20 AM BST
The pickford sending off was borderline red/yellow so they are probably right under var to stick with ref.

The offside seemed to be exactly what they were trying to avoid in ruling a goal out when it was not clear.

Var may well have been correctly used, and therefore will probably be defended.

But a different guy on var may have given different decisions, and that surely is the problem.
Report Blackrock October 18, 2020 11:01 AM BST
Pickford should have got jail for that yesterday and Liverpool winner should have been given.

As for VAR we have to bin it. Incompetents at Stockley making a mockery of the game. We have to trust in refs now to run a game. Take away the shackles they are under and let them use good ole common sense.

Change the handball rule back to what it was and give the power to refs to be very hard on players caught diving. Offside by mm should be scrapped. If a part of a forwards body is level with the defender then onside.

I know refs will make mistakes but it has to be better than what we have now.
Report Aspro October 18, 2020 11:10 AM BST
VAR is probably here to stay but assuming we do go back to refs it will have to be soon before they also lose touch with the old way of refereeing. Could be chaos.
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 18, 2020 11:15 AM BST
I've been against VAR from the start. For me, football is a human game and we need to respect referees and allow for the fact that they sometimes make mistakes. But they actually make far fewer mistakes than the best of the players. All stemmed from Andy Gray and his "I've seen them given" crap. Never once did they ever congratulate the refs on getting a call right. Slowly, everyone got conned into thinking refs were awful and we needed tech to get decisions right.

I thought the move to have refs reviewing pitchside was a positive step and should be used much, much more. I don't mind that really. At least we can see the actual ref is using the tech to make his decisions better. For big decisions like goals and poss penalties then it needs to go to the ref to review imo.

And VAR should be there to overturn clear and obvious errors. If that linesman says the Henderson goal is valid, then it's up to VAR to say he got it wrong, not to have a look, find it too close to call and toss a coin.
Report rothko October 18, 2020 12:25 PM BST
SeeMoreBusiness • October 18, 2020 12:36 AM BST
but isn't the point that Pickford's "challenge" wasn't a pen because the liverpool bloke was off side? so ball "dead" as in cricket?

Absolute nonsense - so you can commit an assault when the ball is as you call it dead and not get a card. There have been plenty of red cards after the ref has blown the whistle and the ball is "dead"

FFS LaughLaugh
Report pushkin99 October 18, 2020 12:44 PM BST
I am pretty sure SMB is being very much tongue in cheek over the unpunished assault on VVD.

He has openly admitted Henderson scored a good goal.
Report morpteh mackem October 18, 2020 1:16 PM BST

Oct 18, 2020 -- 9:48AM, pushkin99 wrote:

(that was not aimed at u mm by the way, but more generally)

i wish it was my team, that would mean be in the premGrin

Report pushkin99 October 18, 2020 1:30 PM BST
U will be back one day mm. When a student, I went along to Roker park quite a few times, watching on from both home and away ends. Always thought your fans were amazingly passionate, even more so when your hordes followed u to Anfield. (I haven't played for years, but Morpeth was one of our opponents my Uni team competed against at chess............ Consett Blackfyne, Sunderland Wyverns, Denton bus drivers, Whitley Bay too. Happy memories.) Always loved living in the north east.
Report morpteh mackem October 18, 2020 1:36 PM BST
wow, nice to hear mr pushkinGrin
Report lurka October 18, 2020 1:42 PM BST
It's ridiculous but the 'winner' was offside, it wouldn't have been last year but this year you can score with your upper arm. Last year the line would have been drawn at Mané's shoulder, this year it is drawn to the outside of the upper arm, which is the width of the upper arm further towards the goal and made all the difference in both VVD and Mané's cases.

VVD was offside for Pickford's challenge for the same reason. He'd have been onside last year as well. Fine margins, too fine to be making decisions using video stills which are not exact due to framerates, but they are the rules. Not really a VAR issue for me, but a rule issue and a procedural one where the procedure is to try to make definitive decisions where the video can't be definitive due to framerates. Once that is the rule/procedure then they are forced to make a definitive call even though the video may not show when the ball was played exactly. But I think they called it right based on what they had to work with.

Look at the ball in the Mané still - it looks 3 times as wide as a normal ball because it is in the process of being played by Thiago. Offside should be subject to the clear and obvious requirement as well. That way the attacker gets the benefit of the doubt which was always the case and there is no more drawing of ridiculous lines on the screen.
Report rothko October 18, 2020 1:52 PM BST
whether VVD was onside or offside the assault was a red card

so if an attacker is offside the defender has a free shot at booting him up in the air as he's offside Crazy
Report pushkin99 October 18, 2020 2:10 PM BST
I think any fair minded person on this forum can see that the assault on VVD should have been punished by a red card.

It is a little bit more judgemental with Mane, but he was at worst level with the defenders, so is not offside. In addition, there was no 'clear and obvious error here', the decision of the referee and his assistant should not have been overturned.

In each case, VAR has been applied incorrectly by an incompetent official ignorant of the rules.

Those who argue otherwise, what would u think if this had been against your team? It could easily be your PL team next.
Report GAZO October 18, 2020 2:20 PM BST
when you do offside how they do there will always be very close decisions,we have seen last season how close they can be but even though you may not agree with how it was done you could usually see with the naked eye that something was over the imaginary line,yesterday you couldnt with the naked eye which is as close as they will ever be but you have to go with it,a bit like in horseracing when you lose in a photo by a pixel,the pickford incident was totally wrong and he should have been and still should be sent off,only being a goalkeeper is the only possible and wrong reason why he wasnt
Report maleuk01. October 18, 2020 4:41 PM BST
Quite clear the Liverpools 3rd goal was onside by some margin as well.

The VVD incident i saw a freeze frame also showing him onside as the boot of the defender is showing but the line is the defenders back not boot. Thats a close 1 though.

But how is it not a red card for Pickford in anyone's book?

The decisions where so bad and wrong that you have to ask was corruption and bribery involved?

I doubt the VAR officials and ref get paid that much, with all the money bet on these games and how much clubs spend on players and wages, what is £50k or £100k to bung the refs and var official?

Also as play is carrying on the ball is still live. Otherwise if you know a player is offside but no flag, whats to stop a player putting in a deliberate leg breaking challenge, especially on a star player?

In my opinion the ref should be able to look at a screen and see replay's. Inc freeze frames without the lines as they are open to interpretation where you put them and at exact moment of the pass etc.
Report ----you-have-to-laugh--- October 18, 2020 5:11 PM BST
Also as play is carrying on the ball is still live. Otherwise if you know a player is offside but no flag, whats to stop a player putting in a deliberate leg breaking challenge, especially on a star player?

Or before the game kicks off, or during half time, or after match, or whilst awaiting ball to be played after a stoppage...

Guy goes to take a throw in just tackle him two footed... Ball is dead?
Report Dav_vin03 October 19, 2020 12:09 AM BST
Some people don’t understand VAR

The 2D picture they feedback to the tv channels with the lines drawn on is purely to give the viewers an explanation - the actual date for the offside is provided in 3D which for obvious reasons the tv channels can’t show

All the Liverpool VAR offsides where correct
Report jamee1 October 19, 2020 12:32 AM BST
VVD out for 6 to 9 months, cruciate.
Report Flemenstar October 19, 2020 1:36 AM BST
there is no club so special that they deserve to be treated differently to any other club. Imagine if every club started asking for an internal review into their matches. The FA would get nothing done. There is a referee's assessor at each match to judge anything dodgy, there's no need for any further reviews. Any chance on a backdated review into the City game at Anfield last season?

Hopefully the FA submit their review to Mr Klopp as follows

"he was offside."
Report olddesperado October 19, 2020 11:55 AM BST
Had picked been sent off for his clumsy challenge it wouldn't have changed vvd getting injured.

Hearing it called an assault is cringworthy.

From one angle it didn't look too bad but from the other it was a clear red card.

I can see why the ref didn't give it but not the var.

Mane probably was offside but it's sad to be ruling out goals like that where it's too close to see with the naked eye.

The conclusion is it's rich of Liverpool to be kicking a fuss after all the breaks they benefited from var last season over one wrong decision and a 50/50 go against them.
Report mecca October 19, 2020 12:16 PM BST
After last season.... it is hilarious to hear Liverpool fans moaning about VAR
Report rothko October 19, 2020 12:27 PM BST
we had goals ruled out through VAR last season as well so not sure what your on about
Report n88uk October 19, 2020 12:43 PM BST
VAR wasn't the problem in either decision, the application of VAR is the problem. First one the ref didn't give it, so VAR should be intervening. Second one, it's more down to the rules/crazy application of them.
Report n88uk October 19, 2020 12:43 PM BST
Indeed VAR is actually meant to be the solution to the Pickford red.
Report pushkin99 October 19, 2020 1:44 PM BST
Well said n88UK. Good to see an objective assessment of these two applications of VAR technology...............
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 19, 2020 1:46 PM BST
After last season.... it is hilarious to hear Liverpool fans moaning about VAR

Man Utd  +8
Brighton +7
Crystal Palace +4
Burnley +3
Newcastle +3
Liverpool +2
Leicester +1
Southampton +1
Tottenham +1
Bournemouth 0

Liverpool had a total of two extra decisions go their way due to VAR (eg seven given in their favour minus five against)

But do carry on your lazy LiVARpool tripe rather than be bothered to look at the evidence.
Report mecca October 19, 2020 2:05 PM BST
I was at anfield to see the Wolves last season.... just look at the highlights of that match
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 19, 2020 2:25 PM BST
Well, you never told me you had such overwhelming and comprehensive evidence.

I apologise profusely.
Report mecca October 19, 2020 2:29 PM BST
maybe the "two extra decisions" were both used up in that match
Report pushkin99 October 19, 2020 2:58 PM BST

Oct 19, 2020 -- 2:05PM, mecca wrote:

I was at anfield to see the Wolves last season.... just look at the highlights of that match

I was also at Anfield to see Wolves last season. Very similar to the Sheff Utd game a few days after I think (don't think it was a few days before). Both were hard fought home wins, with chances going either way. My prediction prior to those two tough games was that if we win these........................

Liverpool certainly had their fair share of luck last season, in some games more than others as was probably the case against Wolves. BUT as has been pointed out, VAR favoured some teams far more than Liverpool, but don't let the truth get in the way of your stories lads.

Report olddesperado October 19, 2020 3:01 PM BST
A goal scrubbed off when your 2 nil up doesn't equate to a goal scrubbed off for the opposition when your 1 up in the latter minutes.

Sometimes you have to go beyond the statistics to get the truth.
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 19, 2020 3:07 PM BST
Were any of our incredible 2 positive VAR decisions wrong by the way? Has anyone checked and spotted an allowed goal that was actually offside etc? Was this great fortune that created LiVARpool backed up by lots of dodgy decisions going our way, either by a crooked VAR overruling a straight ref or both ref and VAR being crooked in our favour?
Report olddesperado October 19, 2020 3:11 PM BST
I wouldn't say so porky,

Same as everyone else wouldn't you say ?
Report olddesperado October 19, 2020 3:15 PM BST
It begs the question why Liverpool are the only team whinging and looking to take their ball home.
Just accept like everyone else has that even var will interprete an odd one wrong.
Report mecca October 19, 2020 3:24 PM BST
Anyway....... i'm glad that you lot won the league last season and it was well deserved. I don't think that you will retain it this season
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 19, 2020 3:32 PM BST
Exactly OD. And yet we still get the "how dare you complain after all the breaks we benefited from VAR last season" argument. If someone could show any breaks we did benefit from then it'd be a start. Generally VAR is making decisions more accurate. Still not a fan personally, but there we are.

But saturday was different. Firstly, it wasn't the tech. It was a dozy official not even bothering to see if Pickford's challenge was worth a second glance and an offside call that I'm still yet to see any evidence was actually offside.

I think calling it whingeing is typical overblown hyperbole from rivals but fans are entitled to be upset at two huge decisions going against them through such means, and the club are 100% right to ask the PL or the refs association about how they came about and what that means for other games in the league.
Report PorcupineorPineapple October 19, 2020 3:35 PM BST

Oct 19, 2020 -- 3:24PM, mecca wrote:

Anyway....... i'm glad that you lot won the league last season and it was well deserved. I don't think that you will retain it this season

Thanks mecca. Will be a funny one this year. I had a few quid on Everton(!), Spurs and Chelsea a few weeks ago at fancy prices. Could well be a sub-80 winner this year. Fixture pile up will be immense and players will continue to catch the virus and miss games. As for us, Virgil is a monumental loss and probably title-costing level. Wouldn't write us off but it's a big ask now. That said, we played well even if we didn't get what we deserved. Keeping Matip, Allison and Henderson fit is absolutely crucial for us now.

Report olddesperado October 19, 2020 9:51 PM BST
Perhaps kenny will print off a few T shirts to highlight the perceived injustice of it all ..
Report pushkin99 October 20, 2020 3:35 PM BST
Take of your blinkers and local rivalry bias olddesperado. It does u no favours.

Now that very many of your smirking gloating fans - so full of their renowned schadenfreude - have left the forum since United's fall from grace over the last seven years, the forum is a much better place.

Where footie is now mostly discussed on both the United and Liverpool threads. Long may it continue.
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