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13 Mar 19 23:15
Date Joined: 17 Jun 11
| Topic/replies: 1,721 | Blogger: darren_discombobulates_sports's blog
Man City look a million dollars going forward, but the way they defend against any team that really goes for them doesn't fill with confidence, a draw on Friday v Juventus, Liverpool and Barca and it really would be a t oss of the coin stuff. Barca would probably suit them more as they're the most similar whereas Juve and Liverpool's strong defence and counter attacks would be more of a problem.

personally think this is Juve's yearExcited
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Report tobermory March 13, 2019 10:39 PM GMT
Of course they should be favs.

There was a long thread earlier in the season with people saying they shouldn't be favs. Baffling imo
Report Can't Catch Me March 13, 2019 10:46 PM GMT
Of course they should. Best side in Europe, by a distance.
Report darren_discombobulates_sports March 13, 2019 10:54 PM GMT
What makes them the best team in Europe, they're only 1 point ahead of Liverpool in the league after Liverpool led most of the season, and who also knocked them out of Europe last season, and this season in the Champions League they've beat nobody at all, two mid table German teams, a Ukrainian team and lost at home to Lyon befor drawing late away?

Going forward they are either the best or equal but they're definitely not the strongest at the back imo, don't think anyone could really back them with confidence v those 3 teams Barca, Juve and Liverpool?
Report Can't Catch Me March 13, 2019 10:58 PM GMT
Put any team in Europe in the Prem and they’d be miles behind City imo.
Report Can't Catch Me March 13, 2019 10:59 PM GMT
Anyone can win a one off game.
Report tobermory March 13, 2019 11:00 PM GMT
They're not trying to grind out 1-0 wins, so they don't need some all time great defence.

It's not the 1970s, the teams that win this competition do so by having the power to blow teams away with 2 or 3 goals in a few minutes.

Who was the last team where the defence won it for them ? Chelsea in 2012 ? If not maybe Milan 2003..
Report brassneck March 13, 2019 11:02 PM GMT
let me run this question past you all,what would Lionel Messi do to the Manchester City defense.? this fact alone should change the betting.
Report darren_discombobulates_sports March 13, 2019 11:12 PM GMT
it's not about a defence winning it for a team it's about a defence not losing it for them, i.e. the team that wins the CL is usually the most well balanced team throughout, I think Juve and Liverpool are a more well balanced team then City. City look great against poor teams and think that blurs the reality, when teams in Europe have not done a Bournemouth and just put everyone behind the ball with little intent on attack, they have struggled, thinking about the likes of Celtic, Monaco, Barca, Lyon and Liverpool.
Report brassneck March 13, 2019 11:35 PM GMT
there is a culture difference between Spanish football and English football,The Spanish teams train with the ball at their feet all the time,The English train with strength and fitness the most important factor.i watched Barcelona train one morning years ago.Ronaldinho was the star player at the time.He had the ball at his feet and four Barcelona players attemped to take the ball of him as he was timed .he held the ball for 38 seconds before he lost it.perhaps i happened to be in the right place at the right time,but i walked away shaking my head.
when the Barca team do a lap of the pitch,they have to kick a ball with them ,and pass to each other at the same time,and each one has a ball each as the set off.each lap is timed.they have to run up a set of stairs on their way round the pitch and control the ball up the stairs,the ball is with then all the time.
English clubs spend a lot of time weight lifting and running ,and may only kick a ball for one hour a day in trial matches.
and even when the foreign coaches take over they all seem to agree with the culture of the countries way of training rather than their own input to training.
Report brassneck March 13, 2019 11:58 PM GMT
team spirit can play havoc to a football team if there are a few players who like a drink on their day off.
you would never see a French team going for a few pints in the after noon,and the social side of life can get out of hand when the managers eyes are not about,dressing rooms get lost by managers for this very reason,football is not all about how you perform on the pitch,its about how you look after yourself when you have time off.this is a great tip for someone doing a long distance bet .check out the players social life,through the media news.and when you read something about a few players after dark take serious note,it could save you piles of money if you are serious about gambling.Cool
Report n88uk March 14, 2019 4:12 AM GMT
Even if you think City should be favs the price in partic seems really poor. Albeit the draw is going to move these odds all over the place so you could instantly get screwed if you lay them and they draw Porto.
Report themover March 14, 2019 10:51 AM GMT
I think the odds are about right at the moment. City hit a high of 7/1 at the start of the competition but have been backed in since the first match, with the predictable drifts after any blips e.g the home match v Lyon. Other than City and Barcelona all the other clubs remaining in the competition have hit big prices at one stage or another - Juve 23/1, Liverpool 21/1, United 200/1+, Spurs 100/1+, Ajax 500/1+, Porto 500/1+. City will be favs to qualify against any of the remaining clubs and if they were to be drawn against Barca in the quarters I wouldn't expect the price to drift, if at all, as much as Barca's.
Report roache March 14, 2019 11:52 AM GMT
When city actually get to the final of the champions league i will start to believe they can win it but that has yet to happen as when the going gets tough in the quarters and semis they never make it.
Report themover March 14, 2019 12:10 PM GMT
City have only been to the quarter-final stage on two occasions beating PSG in one and losing to Liverpool in the other, with one semi-final appearance when they lost to Real Madrid by a single goal.
Report lurka March 14, 2019 1:34 PM GMT

Mar 13, 2019 -- 11:39PM, tobermory wrote:

Of course they should be favs.There was a long thread earlier in the season with people saying they shouldn't be favs. Baffling imo

How is it baffling when their defence has let them down badly in previous years and doesn't look any stronger or different this year? Once a good team with top players finds a way to get at their defence they can be made to look very ordinary or even worse. Premier league teams don't do that. Monaco did it 2 years ago and scored 6 in 2 legs. Liverpool did it last year and scored 5 in 2 legs. Lyon did it this year and took 4 points off them and Lyon are a second rate side at this level.

When have they 'blown away' a top CL side? City's defensive 'strength' comes from pressing and counter-pressing but once a team can get past that they have one of the poorest defences of any of the top sides left. Walker, Stones, Otamendi, Kompany, Danilo are not top rate defenders and they are not a well organised unit.

You have a better argument for them being favourites now that PSG, Real and Atletico are gone but I'd still fancy Barca, Liverpool and Juve against them, particularly over 2 legs.

I don't think City have any real leaders who produce when the going gets tough either or a strong team mentality in such cases. There is little evidence they do and plenty that they don't, there is little evidence that their defence is good enough and plenty that it isn't at top CL level. Not baffing in the slightest.

Report howard March 14, 2019 2:00 PM GMT
good post. They will have to keep the ball really well to have a real chance against the top sides left in. They don't face Messi in the prem.
Report tobermory March 14, 2019 11:51 PM GMT
Why do people keep going on about City's defence ? I already pointed out it is not 1981, the best attack gives you the best chance. Juve and Atletico have had the strongest defences by far this decade, and still haven't won it.

Have you guys not watched this thing the last 10 years. Real Madrid have won 3 in a row with a left back that is 15 yards out of position every time there is a counter attack.

Barca's defence was nothing special at all either (at defending). Real and Barca pick defenders for their attacking qualities, just like City do, so why would it only work for them.
Report darren_discombobulates_sports March 15, 2019 12:21 AM GMT
because City's ever changing defence let's them down in Europe when it matters, last 2 times they've been knocked out of Europe they've conceded 5 in the Quarters to Liverpool and 6 in the second round to Monaco, their attack never got them out of trouble then and they've not really improved upon it now, in the league after 31 games they've scored 9 less goals then at the same stage last season, and the same amount conceded so you could argue then less potent then before.

based on the last 6 years since pep left Barca and Messi at the Nou Camp, he's failed with his philosophy in Europe not making 1 final, and that was largely down to the defence letting them down, Zidane had Madrid's defence well drilled when it mattered, the 2 legged semi v City in particular I remember- he came to the Ethiad and literally shut up shot, same thing second leg only a bit more open. Not to mention that man for man Madrid have simply had better defenders at defending when they needed to defend compared to City, Ramos, Varane, Marcelo, in particular, whereas the only real leader/character at the back in Kompany is always injured so it always seems more makeshift with them. Barca's attack of MSN was simply far superior to Man City's as well. Chelsea under Di Matter, Madrid Under Ancelotti and Inter under Mourinho were also more pragmatic.

I think pep and Barca were a perfect fit, but without Messi his style hasn't really worked thus far in Europe, they could win it this year but with the likes of Stones, Otamedi and injury prone Mendy and Kompany it doesn't really fill you with confidence, because Man City are going to concede those chances to the tops teams when they face them.
Report darren_discombobulates_sports March 15, 2019 12:25 AM GMT
I remember when Chelsea went to the Nou Camp in the Semi's under Di Matteo, it was real back to the walls stuff, at one point they had Drogba defending at left back, then lumped it up field to Torres when he came on to finish them off because Barca's line was so high.
Report tobermory March 15, 2019 12:51 AM GMT
Real's defence has never been great at all. Look how they got smashed by Dortmund in 2013. The same guys were defending when they started winning it, but they just got better in attack.

The idea that City are declining in attack because they are only on course for 100 league goals Crazy And why pick league goals out when we are talking about CL ? In 8 games before the quarters last season City scored 19 goals, this time they have 26.
Report brassneck March 15, 2019 1:50 AM GMT
The old lady is a difficult team to price,they remind me of that devils claw weed in the garden,very tough and very stubborn to eradicate,they also have the knack of dragging other teams down to their own level of play,and they love to stop the flow of play if they are in the lead,in fact they are fantastic at controlling a game when they are leading,they can beat the best teams by stopping a game from flowing,and will be very hard to beat.underestimate them at you pearl.
Report mcfc1981 March 15, 2019 9:09 AM GMT
Still think any team that has Messi or Ronaldo in has to be favs

Bit of a myth City having a poor defence, more the style of play rather then poor defenders.
Report darren_discombobulates_sports March 15, 2019 10:30 AM GMT
pumping mid table german teams with a manager who was already half way out the door doesn't really mean much in terms of extra cl goals this term, when his Bayern and City teams have been ko'd the results were

2014 - F0, A5 v Real Madrid
2015 - F3, A5 v Barca
2016 - F2, A2 v Atletico
2017 - F6, A6 v Monaco
2018 - F1, A5 v Liverpool

F12, A23 in 10 matchesShocked
Report lurka March 15, 2019 5:24 PM GMT
Why are you talking about 1981? This is all relevant to the last 2 years in case you haven't been watching? Nobody is suggesting that you have to be able to defend for 90 mins and get a result to win the CL this year or that City need to be able to defend like Juve or Atletico. City were KO'd after half an hour of pressure away from home last year. You could have Ronaldo and Messi up top and still get KO'd they way they have defended previously at this level, that's the point and that's the question that still remains unanswered about their defence. They are not going to have 180 mins of teams sitting back against them and letting them play like they get every week in the PL.

City do not have the best attack at this level either. What are you basing that on? The Schalke matches or the PL? You need to stop using PL performances, points and scoring records as a barometer for games against the top sides in Europe. It hasn't been a good barometer for years with PL clubs. Use their track record in KO ties in Europe against top sides given above as a barometer, it's way off them being clear favs for the whole thing and far more relevant.

There is no way a team with zero track record of producing at this level and such a questionable defence and mentality of players when the going gets tough should be ahead of teams like Barca, Liverpool and Juve at this stage and the likes of PSG and Real Madrid at the start of the season. Wait until something changes and they show they can KO a top side at least before calling them favourites.
Report themover March 15, 2019 5:34 PM GMT
Have you laid City lurka?
Report lurka March 15, 2019 5:52 PM GMT
Report darren_discombobulates_sports March 15, 2019 6:08 PM GMT
Man City are an excellent team with a great coach, but unless Pep does in Europe what he actually managed to do to Liverpool in the league this season then it will be a similar story to the last 5 years, against Liverpool in the league he changed his gameplan and decided to spent a lot more time stifling Liverpool's attack and less time on his own attack, to the point where in the first half at Anfield I don't think they registered a shot on goal, it's going against Pep's instincts and I don't think he's willing to do that frequently, he wants to win his way, I think they will get past Tottenham over 2 legs but lose to Juventus.
Report lurka March 15, 2019 6:33 PM GMT
I'd expect City to get past Spurs and trade lower. I might lay them at some point but I'd prob only do it if they are up against Barca or Juve/Pool in the semi or final or if Spurs are having a good go at them, but I'd wait to see how the opposition are playing against them in every case. Once it's not panning out like a PL game I'd be happy to lay but I'd prob do it in the market for that tie rather than overall.

Pep tends not to approach these games like league games, nobody does really. They are 2 leg ties and he tends to look for a score draw or narrow loss in the away leg and looks to win the home leg well. Even his Barca side had a relatively poor record in away legs for such a great side.
Report Angoose March 15, 2019 7:05 PM GMT
Juventus have been knocking on the door for the last few seasons, just get the feeling that the addition of Ronaldo will push them to glory.
Report PorcupineorPineapple March 15, 2019 7:09 PM GMT
Can only think Darren is a better, more experienced coach than Pep. We're in great company here lads.
Report darren_discombobulates_sports March 15, 2019 7:15 PM GMT
Report Angoose March 15, 2019 7:29 PM GMT
Manchester City marched into the quarter-finals of the Champions League with a thumping 7-0 win over Schalke on Tuesday night, to complete a 10-2 aggregate win.

They have only once gone further than the last eight, in 2016 when they lost to Real Madrid in the semi-finals.
City boss Pep Guardiola has described his club as being like "teenagers" in Europe's elite club competition because of that lack of pedigree at this level, but will this be the year they come of age?

Pat Nevin, who was co-commentating on the Schalke game for BBC Radio 5 Live, explains why he believes City have what it takes to go all the way to the final in Madrid on 1 June - but warns there are several reasons why things could go wrong... including Cristiano Ronaldo.

Nevin: "At their very best I would back City to beat anyone in Europe. The problem is it is a knock-out competition now, and they will need to be at their best every time.

"If they have a bad half-hour in the Champions League, then that is it - they are gone.

"They will need some luck too, of course, and part of that will be getting the right opponents in Friday's quarter-final draw.
"There are so many factors involved that only a fool would say that any team will definitely win the Champions League - but if you asked me if City are good enough to win it then, yes, I think they are.

"Player for player, they are the best team left in it if everyone is fit - and if they do get injuries then they have got the best squad too, the deepest of any of the teams left in the competition.

"For example, City have had to cope without Kevin de Bruyne for a big chunk of the season, which would crush a lot of teams because he is so brilliant.

"It has not affected them too much, though. They are so strong they have not missed one player, at least not yet anyway, and they have a genius of a manager because they play such fantastic football too."

Nevin: "The biggest problem City have got is the same one as Liverpool, Manchester United and Tottenham, which is that it is hard to win the Premier League, or even to make the top four, and progress in Europe too.

"Our teams will never get a day off or an easy game domestically where they can think 'oh we can rest a few here' and save their legs for big Champions League games.

"If you look at the sides from elsewhere who have progressed, then they can all do that to some degree. They certainly do not have to maintain the same intensity that our top clubs will get in every league match, home or away, between now and the end of the season.

"I think that is one of the reasons that, for a few years now, English clubs have not done as well in Europe as they should have done.

"They should be dominating, with the money we have in our game and the calibre of players who have come to the Premier League, but Chelsea are the last English team to win the Champions League, in 2012.

"This year, we have four English teams left in it, which is kind of the situation I think we should have had for a while. They are all potential winners too, particularly City, because of the depth of their squad.
Report lurka March 16, 2019 12:16 AM GMT
Every English club rests players around CL ties every year FFS. They haven't done as well as they should have for the last few years because they were outclassed, not tired or fatigued. Ajax and Porto, 2 of the other 4, are both going for the league and there's next to nothing in it. City and Liverpool are just as dominant in the PL in terms of points per game as they are in their leagues and they have much better strength in depth in their squads to rest players. He goes on about the depth of City's squad and says they can't rest players?

If Man U hadn't been blessed with that penalty we wouldn't be hearing this much hype and nonsense.
Report scandanavian_haven March 17, 2019 7:15 PM GMT
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