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14 Jul 18 19:07
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Date Joined: 12 Mar 02
| Topic/replies: 55,133 | Blogger: peter the butcher's blog
How it used to be Love


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Report olddesperado September 17, 2021 12:06 PM BST
As Duffy has often pointed out ole is meeting all the criteria the owners want.

Respected enough to keep the protests low key.
Doesn't rock the boat looking for finance to finish the team.
Keeps expectations low by saying we are building, improving, Not quiet where we want yet etc and the icing on the cake was his trophies are not important they are just for ego's
Keeps us close enough to the better teams to keep the hope up and money coming in though.

Eventually though the hope will fade and the pressure on the Glazer's will ramp up and they will say ta ra ole and start the process all over.

They've probably learned a lesson from jose and van gaal and future managers will come from the United gene pool to buy extra time before disgruntled fans reluctantly question a former favourite.
Report olddesperado September 17, 2021 12:13 PM BST
As non of our former players are exactly setting the world alight in the managerial stakes I don't it would be totally mad to imagine our next manager when ole goes at the end of this season or next could be Juan Mata or Cristiano Ronaldo.
Report lurka September 17, 2021 1:11 PM BST
'Doesn't rock the boat looking for finance to finish the team.'

This is absolute nonsense. He has outspent Chelsea City and Pool since he joined. No United manager needs to go looking for money anyway, they have all been given bucketloads to spend and have spent it, more than their rivals and a lot more than is needed to challenge for the PL and CL every year.

Why would the owners want their money spent so relatively poorly when if United were winning like the others revenues would massively increase?

Arsenal fans say the same thing, even though they've outspent everyone this summer. Both owners are people who don't understand football to the extent that they don't even understand that being successful in terms of trophies massively increases revenues from all sources. It also means you don't have to pay a premium to get top players to join you.
Report olddesperado September 17, 2021 1:19 PM BST
What I meant by that was he wouldn't do a jose and demand a player e.g. a DM to finish the team and really challenge.

Ole says after every Window he's happy with his squad when every fan that's seen us play knows we need a top midfielder as a priority.

Yes he's been given money and a lot if it but that's to get top 4 and keep up revenues.

After that they don't really give a diddly squat.
Report PLACEWISE September 17, 2021 3:12 PM BST
Keep the faith with ole look at how he transformed molde  and Cardiff
Report duffy September 17, 2021 4:22 PM BST
The reason why Ole suits the Glazers is this,

When Ole was informed that he was getting Ronaldo back, his reply should have been no thanks I want Declan Rice instead which will have a better long term effect on the team and Greenwood's developement will be likely stunted by getting shifted out wide and Sancho will be inconvenienced by getting shifted across to the other side of the pitch and don't even get me started on trying to squeeze Rashford in when he's fitScared

However, Ole would have doffed his cap and said nowt.
Report lurka September 17, 2021 6:42 PM BST
Ronaldo will cost but will generate most if not all the cost in increased revenues. Also scores major points with the fanbase after the Super League. Doubt Ole didn't want him tho.

He went out and spent £73m on Sancho this summer. And he was after him last summer too for even more money. He keeps spending big on defenders or attackers and has barely touched the midfield in 3 windows. He doesn't need Sancho. Is he even better than Lingard? I've yet to see it. He will likely be another van de Beek, another player they didn't need.

The owners are mugs but won't be a problem for the right manager and Ole isn't the one. Ole should have sorted out the midfield as a priority and didn't. United are the ony team that can match or outspend all the petro clubs even when their owners are sucking money out. They don't even need to match them to compete with them if they get the right manager. The owners don't realise this tho and they could spend less and generate more revenues if they did.
Report 11kv September 17, 2021 7:10 PM BST
The whole Utd squad is not fit to clean his boots imo Ole included.
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B September 17, 2021 9:44 PM BST
Declan Rice though.  Is he any better than Mctominay and even Matic maybe?  He's not exactly blessed with any skill is he so what's the big fuss about him?  Plays for England in a seven man defence including the keeper that's why they are so hard to beat.

Without looking at his stats what does he get three goals per season?  Wow what a player!
Report lurka September 17, 2021 10:00 PM BST
If you're going to play Pogba your going to need a player like Rice in beside him. He has Kante with France and looks top class because Kante does one joband he does the other. He needs to be accommodated as he's not a complete midfielder. Rice might work but might not. But whoever you get won't be getting many goals or assists. In Rice's case there is a lot more to his game than what you see for England. He has a good engine, an eye for a long pass and could be a very good centre half too. He's not going to be your main ball playing CM and that's not what United need. They need balance with Pogba or else get rid of Pogba and get 2 new CMs to partner each other.
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B September 17, 2021 10:03 PM BST
lurka

Do you think he's any better than Mctominay though?  Both look big strong lads, Mctominay too can get forward and probably score more goals than Rice.

I just don't see the big thing about Declan Rice I really don't.
Report lurka September 17, 2021 10:05 PM BST
Players like Kante don't come along very often, that's the problem with Pogba. You are talking Keane/Makelele level of DM to allow a Lampard/Scholes to flourish. Scholes and Lampard weren't great defensively, Scholes especially because he grew up as an attacker and couldn't tackle to save his life. Pogba is similar, very few players can do the defensive work of two in midfield.

Yes I think Rice is a lot better than McTominay. United might be better off without Pogba tho and build a new midfield. But he might leave for nothing and that will cost them. They have the money but wouldn't trust this manager to sort it.
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B September 17, 2021 10:11 PM BST
lurka

Well to each his own so fair enough but for me I really don't see anything about this Declan Rice that tells me he's a good footballer.  I'd rather save the money and play Mctominay.

I agree about Pogba though, has a great game showing how good he can be about once in four or five matches.  The other games he's no better than a bloke on a Sunday morning down at the park who's half decent.
Report lurka September 17, 2021 10:11 PM BST
A lot better for the role needed I mean. I think there's a lot more to Rice but he's largely on a leash with West Ham and even moreso with England. McTominay would prob get more goals and be better in attack but Rice would never be the dominant attacking midfielder in a partnership at a top club. Neither would McTominay but Rice would be better beside a top class attacking midfielder in a partnership as the defensive midfielder imo
Report lurka September 17, 2021 10:21 PM BST
If you look at City, Pool and Chelsea, which is where United want to get to, they all have a top notch DM Fernandinho, Fabinho and Kante. They allow the other midfielders to flourish. United don't have that. Nearly every team who has won the PL has had that type of player. I'd say Arsenal didn't cos petit and vieira could do a bit of both and weren't all out DMs. Can't think of any other team if you go back thru all the winners since the early 90's. You could argue Rodri isn't.
Report brentford September 17, 2021 10:24 PM BST
to be fair Lurka I think the game has changed a bit along the way, I suspect Keane would take great exception to being labelled a defensive Midfielder and he's he be very entitled to..

like Petit and Viera he was box to box as required just as someone like Souness was for Liverpool..
Report brentford September 17, 2021 10:24 PM BST
excuse typing Blush
Report lurka September 17, 2021 10:30 PM BST
Keane was box to box and an all round midfielder. But not when he played beside Scholes. A lot more to Keane than being a DM, his early  United career showed that. But with Scholes he had to do the defensive work of two in terms of protecting the defence and breaking up attacks. Scholes was a 9/10 his whole career until very late. He was never going to be top class defensively or positionally in midfield and Keane accommodated him
Report lurka September 17, 2021 10:34 PM BST
It was always the English player who got all the plaudits. It was Lampard, Gerrard and Scholes with litte regard to the guy in beside him who was just as important (Keane/Makelele/Xavi Alonso). As I keep saying, central midfield is a partnership, never about one player. Even Xavi and Iniesta are revered and busquets forgotten. When England tried to shoehorn Lampard/Gerrard/Scholes/Beckham into their midfield it never worked, despite it being a golden generation.
Report brentford September 17, 2021 10:36 PM BST
agree to a point but both Giggs and Beckham especially worked their bits of when they were on the field as a 4 and allied to Utd's often inevitable dominance of games in that era it wasn't unusual to see Keane in the opposition box and getting on the end of stuff even with Scholes in the side..as I say I genuinely think the game has changed in terms of responsibilities...Neville would often get covered by Beckham for example in that 4-4-2...
Report brentford September 17, 2021 10:37 PM BST
yep, well re Eng Sven was ridiculously reluctant to find balance in fear of upsetting the big names/media...
Report lurka September 17, 2021 10:48 PM BST
You are right about the game changing tho. The top 3 managers all play some form of this 'juega de posición' football, it translates as 'positional play'. Google it, it's very complicated but involves every player knowing where they should be and where they should play the ball. Supposedly Arteta is a disciple of it too but I've yet to see it other than the robotic football he tries to play. But they still all have a designated DM disruptor in midfield, that hasn't changed. Klopp is different to the other two because his midfield creates very little and it's all from the full-backs.

And they all have a very functional midfield. United don't and you have to wonder about the manager at this stage in regard to that. This new type of football is conducive to picking up 90+ points in a season and no othr managers are going to get near that imo. I find it a bit boring and based upon rehearsed routines of play rather than individuality of players.
Report lurka September 17, 2021 10:53 PM BST
routines eg City creating an overload of 3 on 2 out wide and getting a man around the back of the defence and cutting it back for a tap in for a striker or midfielder arriving late. Or de Bruyne with the ball out wide and crosses it between the defence and keeper. Before his foot hits the ball the striker and wide far post attacker are already making their runs towards the 6 yard box because they know where the ball is going. City have done either of these routines at least 200 times in the last 3-4 years. They practice them hundreds of times a week I'd say.
Report brentford September 17, 2021 10:56 PM BST
United seem to have a balance problem regardless of Solskjaer who I don't rate as a manager  and is at least partially responsible for the problem...

spent last season playing two holding mf's when Wan Bissaka is just not a modern fullback (very decent defensively, still think he's more a cb or right of a 3 personally) meaning you lack attacking talent...now trying to play Le Pog as a conventional mf when his work rate isn't high enough in a Utd shirt at least for that role...be interested to know from you or others how Juve got the best out of him..
Report lurka September 17, 2021 11:03 PM BST
Don't know much about him at Juve but I think he played on the left of a midfield 3 there when they got to the CL final. OGS actually stuck him out left in a similar role towards the end of last season and that's when he started playing really well for united
Report brentford September 17, 2021 11:09 PM BST
starts to become an issue of how many work shirkers can a team afford though...Ronaldo, Pogba both going to so need to produce pretty special output..psg the other night though will probably improve were being matched by Brugge purely because of work rate..

(apologies to Utd regulars for interjecting in your thread btw but trying to do so respectfully at least)
Report rommel September 18, 2021 12:08 AM BST
what do you lot think when CR really slows up and cant find that edge even in the box and it might come fast(we all know hes an absolute paragon of fitness ),therell be  a game when it all comes to a head
Report brentford September 18, 2021 12:19 AM BST
he'll be alright this season though rommel no ?

don't get me wrong - does feel a potentially 'dangerous' signing for Ole but probably not on his production ?
Report rommel September 18, 2021 12:34 AM BST
brent-think everyones different,might hit him like a brick or be over a few/many months
Report brentford September 18, 2021 12:39 AM BST
yep, maybe...feel a bit sorry for Cavnani - hadn't realised how good he was until seeing him regularly...great attitude, great movement, classy finisher, backs his team mates in any aggro without being silly..been under utilised for most part and difficult to see how he gets any meaningful playing time now...
Report duffy September 18, 2021 6:50 AM BST
LOU MACARIS TARTAN B 17 Sep 21 21:11 
lurka

Well to each his own so fair enough but for me I really don't see anything about this Declan Rice that tells me he's a good footballer.  I'd rather save the money and play Mctominay.


We don't need Rice instead of Mctominay, we need him as well as Mctominay, those two with another 4 attacking players in front of them could feel comfortable that they are protected, Mctominay and Rice are also very mobile and quite able to carry the ball and join in with attacks and get beyond the ball themselves.

Forget Pogba though, he's running his contract down and good riddance, flashes quality at times, 7 assists already this season but he'll let us down for sure and in the big games when the pressure is turned up in midfield is the times he needs babysitting the most...he's had too many chances so the quicker the Pogba soap opera comes to an end the better.
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B September 18, 2021 7:41 AM BST
duffy

And yet many say "We don't need two 'holding' midfielders which Mctominay and Rice are so no matter what OGS does he can't win surely?

Even ex players like Scholes, Neville, Rio say that and yet some would say play two whether it be Mctominay and Rice or Matic and even Fred at a push.

What's that saying ......... "You can please some of the people all of the time OR ..........."

PS:  I watched Bayern play away from home in an important game against Barca and they pretty much had all eleven players playing in Barca's half.  They cross a ball and there's four or five of them in the middle.  Barca never really had a shot and at The Nou Camp.  Now that's the way to do it.
Report SirNorbertClarke September 18, 2021 8:59 AM BST
A team is built from the back. Look at Puyol, Vidic, Ramos etc. We don't yet have a centre back pairing that inspires confidence. When other teams attack we look vulnerable. That is especially true against the top teams we need to beat to win silverware.

We couldn't even shut up shop against Young Boys ffs.

Whenever United are odds-on against a team even remotely capable causing an upset I am going to lay them starting with West Ham.
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B September 18, 2021 9:13 AM BST
You see now here's a fan blaming the defence.  So if OGS were to buy Rice he would be saying "It's the defence we need sorting out Olly"

See what I mean "You can please some of the people" ...................
Report SirNorbertClarke September 18, 2021 9:24 AM BST
I am not blaming just the defence. The club and the manager should have bought reliable centre backs, the coaches should have drilled discipline into the defence.

How many players has the manager and coaching staff improved?

We have just bought one of Europe's most exciting ring wingers and we are playing him on the left. Surprise surprise he is struggling.
Report REDROB September 18, 2021 1:17 PM BST
Apart from Luke Shaw, every player signed has regressed, United take a hit on all signings in the last 8 years. Maybe Bruno would recoup the outlay in signing him as well but no one else. Whereas L'pool always tend to make a profit when they sell. So it's not just olly and his coaching staff, it's all since fergie.
Report duffy September 18, 2021 1:36 PM BST
LOU MACARIS TARTAN B 18 Sep 21 06:41 
duffy

And yet many say "We don't need two 'holding' midfielders which Mctominay and Rice are so no matter what OGS does he can't win surely?


They are not simply holding midfielders, they are in the mould of a Kante who you would do a disservice too by labeling him simply a holding midfielder because he breaks up play and carries it forward many times deep into the opposing teams areas.

Mctominay and Rice are dynamic midfielders, that can cover all areas, up and back, offering protection and an attacking threat, you can't label them as a holding mid in the same way as you would a Matic.

Those two would transform us into a real threat for the title I believe.
Report layingisthewayforward September 18, 2021 2:13 PM BST
Lou Macaris won't have a word said against OGS will he. Has anyone ever seen them together in the same room?
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B September 18, 2021 2:27 PM BST
laying

Did you hear National Insurance is going up?  Apparently it was OGS fault.

Just as the back pass from Lingard in the week was OGS fault and Wan Bissaka getting sent off, OGS made him make that late tackle too!

When the forwards have a shot and miss the target that's OGS fault too whereas if it were the same forward, same position on the pitch ............... but Pep, Sir Alex had written his name on the team sheet all of a sudden that exact same shot would have gone in!!

PMSL
Report PorcupineorPineapple September 18, 2021 3:47 PM BST
One day in the future, Lou will be sitting at home wondering just what Ole is responsible for.
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B September 18, 2021 5:10 PM BST
PP

And one day in the future people will realise that it's 99% the people on the pitch who are ACTUALLY KICKING THE BALL that are responsible.

I've asked this many times and it goes silent as nobody can answer me with a definitive answer.

If it's the manager that is to blame and one manager is so much better than another than HOW COME ENGLAND HAVE TRIED EIGHTEEN DIFFERENT MANAGERS SINCE 66' AND DONE NOTHING??

Surely if you had a 'Business' that had tried EIGHTEEN different managers and not one of them could make it succeed you must appreciate IT'S NOT THE MANAGER'S FAULT?  It MUST BE that our players on the pitch aren't as good as the other teams.  A six year old could get that surely.
Report SirNorbertClarke September 18, 2021 5:12 PM BST
Who was responsible for the crazy substitutions on Tuesday?
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B September 18, 2021 5:15 PM BST
What bring a top Centre half on to replace someone who had done nothing AGAIN to help shore up the defence and protect your lead?
Report Emitdeb September 18, 2021 5:16 PM BST
WOW! Lou's taken his ignorance to a whole new level!  Laugh
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B September 18, 2021 5:16 PM BST
And swap a like for like Right Back?  Yer really bad choices that!!

PMSL
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B September 18, 2021 5:25 PM BST
I've asked this many times and it goes silent as nobody can answer me with a definitive answer.

If it's the manager that is to blame and one manager is so much better than another than HOW COME ENGLAND HAVE TRIED EIGHTEEN DIFFERENT MANAGERS SINCE 66' AND DONE NOTHING??

Surely if you had a 'Business' that had tried EIGHTEEN different managers and not one of them could make it succeed you must appreciate IT'S NOT THE MANAGER'S FAULT?  It MUST BE that our players on the pitch aren't as good as the other teams.  A six year old could get that surely.



See what I mean ................. SILENCE!
Report Emitdeb September 18, 2021 5:26 PM BST
It MUST BE that our players on the pitch aren't as good as the other teams.  A six year old could get that surely.


You Drink too much mate... LaughLaugh
Report SirNorbertClarke September 18, 2021 5:28 PM BST
No need to bring Dalot on. Put Sanchez at right back. I hear he's quite good playing on that side of the pitch.

Why bring DvdB off? when the f**k is that lad going to get a chance?

Why bring Lingard on when Bailly was on the bench?

Every team needs a plan B for when the sh!t suddenly hits the fan. And our plan B should be sub Ronaldo cause he does sweet FA for the defence.
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B September 18, 2021 5:34 PM BST
Norbert

But that's all just your opinion.  You could ask a hundred people on here and quite possible done of them would even mention Bailly and as for Sancho at Right Back?  Why not bring the reserve keeper on then and put De Gea there?

Lingard came on because he's quick and could possibly do something up top to take the pressure off the defence what with Ronaldo not wanting to run much at the best of times at 36!

Sancho at RB rather than Dalot?  ffs mate get real.
Report PorcupineorPineapple September 18, 2021 5:54 PM BST
Lou - if England had held on and won against Italy would you be saying these are the best English players since 66?


That Pickford is better than Seaman or Clemence?
Maguire better than Rio, Adams or Butcher?
Kane better than Shearer or Lineker?
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B September 18, 2021 6:28 PM BST
PP

No I think the older players you mention were all better than the current ones in comparism.  Obviously the older German, Argentinian, Brazilian etc etc were all better too though.

You seem a reasonable chap PP.  Surely you can see my analogy of a company trying Eighteen different managers but can't get the 'Business' to work then what would you do try ANOTHER manager .......... or simply concede the product just isn't sought after?

Come on be fair.
Report PorcupineorPineapple September 18, 2021 6:31 PM BST
I'm just trying to understand your logic (god help me)...

English players haven't won a big prize = English players aren't good enough

It therefore surely stands that if an English team did win then either a) Southgate is an unbelievable manager or b) these are brilliant players.


Which one is it?
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B September 18, 2021 6:38 PM BST
I'd say forget the manager for a start.

Regarding how good the players are like I said I wouldn't rate them as highly as players of old some of which you mentioned.  Let's for arguments sake say the older players were all 8/10 and the current lot 7/10 FOR ARGUMENTS SAKE before someone jumps down my throat.

Therefore for me the other countries from round the world can't be as good as their teams of old as this England side are becoming a match for most of them.  Not very good going forward but with six defenders plus a Keeper are hard to score against.

So I'd say it was C ............ neither.
Report SirNorbertClarke September 18, 2021 6:42 PM BST
Sancho at RB rather than Dalot?  ffs mate get real.

I fail to see how my choices are worse than OGS. After all with his choices we lost the lead and lost the game to a 3rd or 4th rate team.
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B September 18, 2021 7:45 PM BST
Well Norbet of course you're entitled to your opinion so nobody can proclaim "You're wrong"

However don't forget I'm entitled to mine too and it's as good as anybody elses on this forum.

In this instance I would say IN MY OPINION that Dalot for Wan Bissaka was a straight swap.  Varne to shore up the defence was another obvious decision and bringing Ronaldo off for Lingard was ok too.  You'd rather him play Sancho at Right Back?  Fair enough.
Report the_don September 19, 2021 8:48 AM BST
Read Lurka's posts from the last few days about the midfield area in general and I agree with a lot of it. Balance is the key and that's related to what other areas of the team are doing. A manager/coach needs to set up with the right balance between attack and defence but the best players will be aware of this during the game too in positional adjustment and awareness.

We clearly need a centre midfielder as no combination at the moment provides an ideal balance but as others have said, what type of player we need depends who they'll be playing alongside. The worry is we buy someone and then expect them to perform a different role - has happened with Herrera, Pogba, even van de Beek.

Of course there will be no signing until probably at least next summer. Use that time to decide the make up of the midfield (I too would exclude Pogba from future plans) and then identify targets to suit. Until then we've got to make the best of what we have and that's where coaching and team setup comes in - areas which needs to improve markedly.
Report olddesperado September 19, 2021 12:40 PM BST
All last season poor performances and lack of urgency  were excused on basis of our participation in the Europa league and the Thursday Sunday schedule.

Well today the tables are turned ,  West ham were away in Croatia on Thursday while we were tucked up back at home since Tuesday night.

Let's see who's the most energetic today then although we usually respond well to an adverse result and the justifiable criticism that follows.
Report olddesperado September 19, 2021 12:47 PM BST
I can't see ole not going the double pivot today so with Pogba, Bruno and Ronaldo nailed on starters it's between Greenwood and sancho for the other spot.

My guess is Greenwood gets it so sancho sits out .

With martial still there and Cavani and Rashford to come back it's looking very like sancho will see very little meaningful time on the pitch this season.
Report olddesperado September 19, 2021 12:49 PM BST
When other clubs make significant signings they have a specific roll or position in mind for them.
We seem to buy them and then see where we can fit them in.
Report SirNorbertClarke September 19, 2021 12:51 PM BST
Sancho on the bench would be a huge failure of our transfer strategy.
Report olddesperado September 19, 2021 1:15 PM BST
Sancho is on the bench and ole saying he needs time to adjust.

Sounds familiar.
Report SirNorbertClarke September 19, 2021 2:17 PM BST
Adjust to being f**ked about.
Report duffy September 19, 2021 3:55 PM BST
DDG top classCool
Report olddesperado September 19, 2021 4:02 PM BST
Absolute crazy decision by w ham though.

On a different note while I prefer this version of var I think they are using it to control the narrative.
You wouldn't say the hand ball was clear and obvious with shaws proximity to the kicker yet they deemed yesterday's city decision a clear and obvious despite it being a clear penalty and was originally given.

I don't trust it.
Report the_don September 19, 2021 4:42 PM BST
We always rated that Lingard and also de Gea facing penalties didn't we? Blush

Agree on the VAR and ref today, not sure how none of those penalty claims warranted an extra look at. At times he brought it back for a free kick to West Ham after no advantage emerged but didn't for us on at least a couple of occasions!

Some half decent 6 or 7 minute spells but not sustained for long enough and I thought we limited West Ham to not a great deal. Their keeper was brilliant, particularly first half. But again we need sparking into life by conceding and let the game drift far too much - both at 0-0 and from around 60-80 minutes.

I'll post what I was thinking just before Lingard scored, I don't see and I'm not sure if the players know how we are actually trying to score. We have some good weaponry and I see good movement at times but not all the players are on the same wavelength it seems. I could give a reasonable explanation of how the other teams cause the opposition problems or try to exploit weaknesses but I can't really explain what we try to do.
Report the_don September 19, 2021 4:46 PM BST
*the other top 4 teams that should say.

Also not sure about Sancho being brought on and being almost exclusively down the middle, with AWB the only option on the right. Just when we needed to stretch West Ham out wide everything went so congested with Lingard on the other side also wanting to be central.
Report lurka September 19, 2021 5:11 PM BST

Sep 19, 2021 -- 10:02AM, olddesperado wrote:


Absolute crazy decision by w ham though.On a different note while I prefer this version of var I think they are using it to control the narrative. You wouldn't say the hand ball was clear and obvious with shaws proximity to the kicker yet they deemed yesterday's city decision a clear and obvious despite it being a clear penalty and was originally given.I don't trust it.


clear and obvious only applies to the VAR (a person). A VAR is not asked to re-referee the incident, he is asked whether the ref made a 'clear and obvious error' which is something different. But when a ref goes to look at the monitor, he is not reviewing his own decision like a VAR does, he is re-refereeing the incident from scratch with the benefit of replays and there is no need for him to establish a 'clear and obvious' error, just a simple error will do.

The VAR will only ask the ref to go to the monitor when he feels the ref has missed something material like Shaw's handball, Ramsdale's touch on the ball or a possible foul by the Southampton player coming thru the back of Walker when Walker had got himself into position to get to the ball first and would have had the player not come thru the back of him.

Report lurka September 19, 2021 5:14 PM BST
If the ref had told him 'I saw Shaw's handball clearly' then the VAR would have overturned the decision for a 'clear and obvious error'. It was a penalty all day long, you can't defend with your arm out like that and Shaw can have no complaints. When the ref saw it again on the monitor he also indicated that it was handball, so he obviously didn't see it clearly the first time.
Report lurka September 19, 2021 5:17 PM BST
Sorry, if he'd said 'I saw the ball strike Shaw's arm clearly'. None of the incidents re Shaw, Ramsdale and Walker were VAR decisions. The were all re-refereed decisions and there is no higher bar/'clear and obvious' requirement in these cases.
Report olddesperado September 19, 2021 5:28 PM BST
Car only ask the referee to look if they feel it's clear and obvious mistake.
Neither of those were clear and obvious mistakes.

For me both were penalties but var got the ref to overturn his original decision both times.
Report lurka September 19, 2021 5:45 PM BST
You don't think the Shaw decision was a clear and obvious mistake? They have been giving penalties for that for well over a year now. It was basically a carbon copy of Davies handball against Palace last week for Spurs, which was also a stonewall penalty.

They can ask the ref to look if they think he's missed a material element of the incident too, based on what he tells them he saw.
Report olddesperado September 19, 2021 8:03 PM BST
I have to say I've been surprised by Ronaldo.

I didn't think he'd move much other than in the box but he's been brilliant so far.

His movement in the box is excellent and while Cavani had a job encouraging the others to put it in the box early they seem to be doing it fort Ronnie.

It speeds us up and stops a lot of the sideways and backwards sh1te.

We are a much more enjoyable team to watch with him in it.
Report olddesperado September 19, 2021 8:10 PM BST
Maguire is a worry at the moment and can be way too casual at times especially considering he has no pace to recover.

Varane easily outshineing his so far.

It might be no harm to try lindolof and bailly alongside him at some stage.

Good defensive partnerships can be found by chance a lot of the time rather than made.
Report olddesperado September 19, 2021 8:16 PM BST
Now is the time to have some balls and roll the dice on the league cup.

I'd make 10 changes for midweek and if we go out we go out.

Can still field a team comprising the likes of bailly lindolof dalot matic dvb lingard Mata  sancho martial .
AWB could feature as he will miss the CL games.
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B September 19, 2021 8:25 PM BST
So here we go again ............ The Truth

Throw away all of your biasedness for or against United here is the real truth all biasednessaside.

Firstly I thought United deserved their win today, West Ham barely layed a glove on them so for that penalty at the very end to go in would have been harsh.

1.  I thought Ronaldo should have had at least one penalty, the last one surely the defender brought him down.

2.  It's very harsh to give a penalty against Shaw at the end like that as he was so close to the player but to be fair (you lot reading this should be fair too it's nice simply telling the truth rather than lie for your own team) I think the Ref had to give is as why are Shaw's arms outstretched like that?  I'd certainly have wanted a penalty if it were United attacking.

3.  Good luck to Lingard getting the winner after an awful back pass last week to lose the game for United.

4.  Thank God Sancho wasn't playing.

5.  All those calling for Declan Rice ....... I think he crossed the halfway line once and touched the ball twice in the whole game ............ what a player!!

6.  So after five games United joint top of the league and only beat in the week after playing two thirds of the game with a man sent off and a ridiculously bad mistake for their winning goal.

7.  OGS out eh! ............................. PMSL
Report rommel September 19, 2021 8:32 PM BST
LOU WHERE DO YOU PARK YOUR SPACESHIP? oops caps
Report olddesperado September 19, 2021 8:34 PM BST
Get with it man,

Don't you know he can't read you.
Report olddesperado September 19, 2021 8:35 PM BST
He still has the don , pop and sirnorbert though.
Report rommel September 19, 2021 8:38 PM BST
shirley he has to have a peep od, top of the lge so cant knock that,youve got no movement up front,its pattycake and you're getting away with,gawd knows how,then again i might know sh**=that wouldnt surprise me either,CR has done great yep-so far but i think hes average at this level-but the goals hes got......
Report cruso September 19, 2021 8:38 PM BST
Great goal for the winner...
However from his lack of celebration you would have thought he`d done another last minute howler ...
Was he hedging his bets for the January window..??
When we went a goal down what did OGS do..?  He slumped in his chair like he always does then was all smiles when we scored..
That is not an `OLE out` statement its just something he shouldn`t be doing and something I don`t like to see.
Ronaldo..... must be luckiest signing we`ve ever had... he certainly wasn`t part of OLEs 3 year plan was he..
Report olddesperado September 19, 2021 8:47 PM BST
Agree with all of that cruso.
Report HallGreenSpy September 19, 2021 10:31 PM BST
Jesus Lou.

My opinion. Draw would have been fair. Shaw deffo pen. Ronaldo deffo pen. Wtf Moyes was thinking is anyone's guess. Dunno if him coming on to take it or De Gea saving it was the biggest surprise.
Report HallGreenSpy September 19, 2021 10:33 PM BST
However from his lack of celebration you would have thought he`d done another last minute howler ...

Common practice for players to not celebrate against former clubs.
Report duffy September 20, 2021 4:40 AM BST
Lingard's ability has never been in question, the question is his attitude when he gets "comfortable" as he did in a United shirt over the past few years, he fancies himself a bit too much and has been a big time charlie.

If he is to truly resurrect his United career the current much higher level of competition within the team is something that his type of character will find a blessing in disguise as it should serve to keep him on the straight and narrow and allow him to maximise his potential, but we will see.

United were much more solid in the middle of the park with Mctominay back in the team, agree with OD, maguire is once again looking flaky, the 2nd foul on Ronaldo was a stonewall penalty.
Report LOU MACARIS TARTAN B September 20, 2021 6:05 AM BST
I've said from the very start that Maguire is just a big strong header of the ball and can knock a pass now and then.  He's decent enough but far from great.  Anyone running at him would leave him for dead. 

I compared him to VVD at Liverpool before saying that if we can agree that VVD is rated at say 8.5 out of ten (almost a 9 maybe) then is Maguire close enough to him to warrant an 8/10?  Of course he's not meaning that our Captain, main Central Defender, world's most expensive defender at 80 million is a 7/10 defender.  Not great is it.  Once again I'll compare, is he THAT much better than Port Vale's Centre Half?
Report the_don September 20, 2021 8:28 AM BST
Have always thought Lingard had talent, movement and gets into good areas. But he's a number 10, not a wide player. And there's no way he gets in ahead of Bruno - Lingard had a run there pre Bruno and got nowhere near the goals and assists that Bruno has.

So either he (and van de Beek)get the odd 10 mins here and there or we'd have to change system - which looks very unlikely. Also agree when Lingard does have a good spell he gets overconfident and thinks he's made it.

McTominay is looking better each season ,just need to find a role that uses his strengths. Have thought both Maguire and Shaw have been iffy so far, Shaw is getting forward as we all want but he's not always the quickest getting back and closing down which leaves Maguire more exposed.
Report olddesperado September 20, 2021 1:54 PM BST
I see Phil Jones has had a go at Rio Ferdinand for suggesting he is wasting his time at united and taking up the place of a youth player in the squad.

Fair enough but now he's had a go at the fans who wrote about him on social media.

"I'm proud of my career and will enjoy my retirement while the keyboard warriors will still be in their mothers spare room in their boxers drinking flat Pepsi and eating a pot noodle "
Report Giuseppe September 20, 2021 2:03 PM BST
i wish i could afford a pot noodle
Report rommel September 20, 2021 2:04 PM BST
What Rio said was ff disgusting
Report snowynoon September 20, 2021 2:34 PM BST
Ferdinand is a loathsome individual ,calling a fellow pro ,a "waste of time ",and an ex colleague too .
Report olddesperado September 20, 2021 3:18 PM BST
He reckons he didn't know about Jones injury problems.

I find it hard to believe though as I'm pretty sure everyone knows he's permanently crooked.
Report REDROB September 20, 2021 3:28 PM BST
as well as crocked !
Report olddesperado September 20, 2021 4:06 PM BST
Laugh
Report lurka September 20, 2021 4:42 PM BST
ironically, Ferdinand's career in punditry mirrors Jones' football career. Maybe he should take some of his own advice.
Report cruso September 20, 2021 6:32 PM BST
Rio was happy to draw his wages for 8 months for doing sweet FA....
Report HallGreenSpy September 20, 2021 8:49 PM BST
"I'm proud of my career and will enjoy my retirement while the keyboard warriors will still be in their mothers spare room in their boxers drinking flat Pepsi and eating a pot noodle "

If he has said that, he is lower than a snakes belly......with eggs! Good luck to you Rio. But for the grace if God and all that. AngryAngry
Report olddesperado September 20, 2021 10:37 PM BST
That was Jones said that,

Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
Report SirNorbertClarke September 20, 2021 10:38 PM BST
I don't eat pot noodle, I drink them Happy
Report SirNorbertClarke September 20, 2021 10:38 PM BST
I don't eat pot noodle, I drink them Happy
Report HallGreenSpy September 20, 2021 11:20 PM BST
Ah. Didn't think Jones was retired yet. Poor form either way.
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