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The Dragon
17 Jun 23 17:35
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Date Joined: 12 Mar 05
| Topic/replies: 47,910 | Blogger: The Dragon's blog
what a crazy decision should have batted and create a big as total as possible

whoever made that call should hang their head in shame
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Report elisjohn June 17, 2023 7:01 PM BST
cant say things like that, the wokes will be out cant criticise god stokes, but agree 100 % with you
Report mafeking June 18, 2023 1:25 PM BST
no way they were batting on sat morning with a bit of early rain and favourable bowling conditions but might have left 40 runs out there in the last half hour. 4 overs isn't really enough to have a proper bowl. like 7 or 8 at least
Report The Dragon June 20, 2023 6:43 PM BST
its going to cost them the first test at this rate OZ NEED 23 with 2 wickets left ffs
Report The Dragon June 20, 2023 7:25 PM BST
shocking lost by 2 wickets

got to be one of the worst declarations of all timeCryDevil
Report barstool June 20, 2023 7:25 PM BST
Lost the last Test in New Zealand with a bad decision (not batting again and putting the game to bed).

Now this. Given two tests away with being too clever.CryCry
Report barstool June 20, 2023 7:26 PM BST
Or stupid.
Report elisjohn June 20, 2023 7:30 PM BST
i said it at the time no after timing, needs to be sacked after that utterly terrible decision, so stop **** footing and call it as it is, everyone, marnus, warner and smith having contributed in this test at all really and eng still lose, pathetic
Report elisjohn June 20, 2023 7:30 PM BST
worst decision in any sport ive seen in 50 years
Report The Dragon June 20, 2023 7:33 PM BST
and root was 118 not out ffs
Report alun2005 June 20, 2023 8:23 PM BST
Staggeringly bad declration. Most people said so at the time as well, so not a case of mass aftertiming.

The 20 to 30 runs (or more) that a rampant Root and useful Robinson could have added look very handy now.

England gave that game away with umpteen mistakes, the biggest failing probably being not batting the Aussies out of the game on Day 4. The pitch was aaking to be plundered for runs.
Report brentford June 20, 2023 8:33 PM BST
so would have been a draw with that approach...

as it was when Oz were 8 down...England were what somewhere between 1/4 - 1/5 to win the game...


seems to be a lot of people using Cummins and Lyon putting on 55* for the 9th wicket as justification for their view...

they certainly could have played more conservatively but by now it's pretty obvs they want to win games rather than not lose them...
Report Theoneandonly June 20, 2023 9:30 PM BST
In my mind you declare when it gives you a better chance of winning the game or there would be no chance of you losing.


To me the only thing that declaration did was increase Australia's chance of winning and also helped there bowlers. It was a hot day and making them bowl the full day and then maybe having to bowl a little bit the following morning would have drained them more. Also could understand if it was Anderson and another not very prolific batsmen who you didn't want in but this was Root seeing it like a beach ball.
Report Theoneandonly June 20, 2023 9:34 PM BST
I'm all for this positive cricket, but when you have teams at your mercy you have to punish them and win the games not let them back in to have a sporting chance for it to be more entertaining.
Report brentford June 20, 2023 9:45 PM BST
it's not even what I'd advocate but the style couldn't be clearer and it's had a lot of success and would have gone down in ashes history but for the late twist...
Report barstool June 20, 2023 11:03 PM BST
Never declare against the Aussies. Flintoff did it in Adelaide 2006 and got us beat.

This tops it. Four days to go and he offers them a bat. Big time Nit wit.
Report mafeking June 20, 2023 11:42 PM BST
hard to disagree. obviously stokes style is the way to go in general but there's positive cricket and taking it too far which this clearly was. that said it wouldn't have mattered if bairstow hadn't had a mare in the 1st innings
Report roache June 21, 2023 8:24 AM BST
Positive cricket is great and then there is stupidity,entertaining test match cricket well go back to 2005 and i doubt you will find a more entertaining series but there was no stupid declarations in this series there was no idiotic dancing down the track which led to 3 dismissals in this test when we were scoring runs with ease and should have batted the Aussies out of the game and all we did was give the Aussies the world test champions an easy way back into the game,you cannot do that with the Aussies,the fact we have lost this test match when we have won the toss on a placid pitch declaring on the 1st day of a 5 day test match having the upper hand for the majority of the game which should have been out of reach of the Aussies but somehow letting them in with a chance of winning does not bode well for the rest of this series unless Bazball is reigned in a little bit with cricketing common sense as the Aussies will be laughing in there breakfast this morning thinking how naive are England because at the end of the day results matter and more so when it comes to the Ashes.
Report The Dragon June 21, 2023 2:00 PM BST
spot on roache
still fuming over the idiocy and arrogance of it.

really bad
Report Whisperingdeath June 22, 2023 1:18 PM BST
The declaration was a mistake with foresight and hindsight.

As a leader you generally do not admit you were wrong in public. I can accept that but I do not think it would have hurt his reputation to say so. There is no way in telling if this decision cost England the game tbf. They created enough chances to win but did not take them. The selection of Moen was in hindsight a mistake but it could of worked but he bowled 29 overs in the first innings where Root could have been used another mistake.

I think Stokes Captaincy for most of the game was magnificent and inspiring. Anyone who wants him sacked for making a mistake is imho deluded.

Bazball is not a tictac or policy as much as a philosophy. I thought England particularly against the best attack in the World humbled them at times particularly Boland. We shall see what happens on more seamer friendly pitches. I was impressed at the way England took so many singles. That is not " Bazball ". I think as they progress they will learn the importance of occupying the crease when needed. Sometimes attrition is important.

I think the balance of the team is flaky. Ironically Stokes should go for Foakes is the most obvious change and at Lords England should play Wood instead of Moen, which, they won't.

I am happy to stick with Stokes. They just need to get the right balance. I do not think our Leach is World Class either. Decent but not good enough. Who do we have...too late to try Ahmed or Jacks? That is the problem.

I think Australia will get better and bowl better with Starc. Unfortunately I am flying on Day 1 at Lords. This has the hall marks of an even and exciting series.

Perhaps the cloudy interval where we lost both openers in the second innings may have been more important than the declaration. My only misgiving was Stokes said he would do it again. I don't have a problem with him saying that but privately I hope McCullum says don't be a xxxx. I very much doubt he will make that mistake again.
Report Fo'B June 22, 2023 4:25 PM BST
For me the most annoying part of the declaration was Stokesy's need to prove England weren't scared, get in their faces, never take a backward step etc. Maybe it was a hangover from the previous Ashes but better to be a bit more flexible I think. Bazball is about scoring fast to give us the best chance of taking 20 wickets, and before this test there's a long run of it working - can't remember the figure. But we seemed to be scoring at the fastest rate of the whole innings, giving Aus a huge problem, so I reckon they were happy to come off. I think the decision to put Aus in was made at tea, England upped the rate in that final session which is how Bairstow and Moeen got out stumped. Would've made sense to re-assess I think.

I don't agree that batting on would've definitely led to a draw. When Root was out in the 2nd innings England knew they didn't have enough runs and scratched around to try to reach 300. A few more runs in the first innings would've meant they could've continued to play positively instead. Aus may have ended up with the same amount of overs but with more runs in the bank to keep attacking fields for longer.

I find it weird hearing Stokes and eg Broad saying England aren't a result-oriented team, and then hearing Stokes say that they're devastated by the loss. It also sounded like Stokes would be fine with 5 tight finishes and losing 0-5, because it provided great entertainment. As WD says, hopefully in private they've realised this series is 50:50 so losing in such a fashion would be a failure.
Report Whisperingdeath June 22, 2023 6:26 PM BST
For me the most annoying part of the declaration was Stokesy's need to prove England weren't scared

That is his problem and certainly with his batting by trying to lead from the front. He should just bat to his ability and not look to whack it. He remains and awesome batsman but he is not scoring the runs he should right now
Report The Dragon June 22, 2023 11:07 PM BST
They are 2 bang average teams

Oz will defo not bat as bad again in future tests and we had a great opp to win this one

the declaration was a massively strategic mistake for us to go one up

the first test showed up our weaknesses:

we have no test openers
we have no test spinners
we have no test reliable wicketkeeper
jimmy cannot bowl on flat tracks
bazball will not work v a strong aussie test team
Report The Dragon June 22, 2023 11:09 PM BST
back oz to win the series
Report roache June 23, 2023 8:39 AM BST
When Smith and Marnus Labuschagne eventually start scoring runs they will be grinding our bowlers down wearing them out making them work very hard for there wickets as opposed to what happened in the 1st test by our batsman whom had got in scoring runs freely and easily yet taking too many risks and offering up on a plate an easy way into there dismissals and a way for the Aussies to get back in the game,wait till the Aussies are the dominant force in any of the tests as they will not take the foot of our throats.
Report Fo'B June 23, 2023 12:29 PM BST

Jun 22, 2023 -- 11:09PM, The Dragon wrote:


back oz to win the series


Have to think the same. Was just waiting in case they have any unexpected injuries.

Report Fo'B June 23, 2023 12:31 PM BST
Had to share this Baz quote. I get his point, but:

Robinson, writing in a new column for Wisden, said: “Baz spoke first. He always goes first when we lose. He just said, “Lads, I’m immensely proud of the efforts that you’ve put in, we’ve made the game what it was. We played all the cricket in the game. If it wasn’t for us, the Australians wouldn’t have even had a chance to win.”
Report brentford June 23, 2023 2:04 PM BST
They are 2 bang average teams

Very hard to say it's an average Australian team with a top 5 that all average well over 40 (two of them over 50) includes Smith (one of the greatest ever to this point) and a bowling attack with Cummins (bow ave 21.89) , Hazelwood (25.97) , Boland (17.94) and Lyon (Australia's most succesful ever finger spinner 495 wkts)

not to mention having recently won the world test championship.
Report The Dragon June 23, 2023 2:46 PM BST
defo bang average

they have no star players for sure

name omne who wd get in the top 10 players of all time in the ashes

not one for sure
Report brentford June 23, 2023 2:56 PM BST
Smith and possibly Cummins
Report brentford June 23, 2023 2:57 PM BST
in fact almost certainly Cummins thinking about it...
Report The Dragon June 23, 2023 3:16 PM BST
nope i can name 9 oz better bowlers for sure
Report brentford June 23, 2023 3:17 PM BST
go on then...
Report The Dragon June 23, 2023 3:54 PM BST
bizzy bur will whn i get time
Report comingupthehill June 24, 2023 10:13 PM BST
The dragon,Steve smith is the 2nd greatest batsman of all time,his stats prove this.
Cummings,a good fast bowler.

Their attack and team are very similar to the last touring team,but englands is the same,with the new face not as good as the old ones,plus B-road and Anderson not as good as last time.

Looks like a good ashes as both have problems,Steve smith will decide who wins based on how well he does,roots improved now in his prime.
Report Whisperingdeath June 25, 2023 9:07 AM BST
Stats don’t prove Smith is the second best batsman of all time!

He is fantastic without a doubt but he has has Australia’s superb bowling attack behind him and flatter, more enduring covered pitches.

Is Alastair Cook England’s greatest Test batsman because he is the highest run scorer? He would struggle to make it into the England all time 3rd XL imho!

In the same way Anderson is a fantastic bowler but Botham was better imho or certainly more effective and a game changer and match winner.
Report The Dragon June 27, 2023 7:39 AM BST
Lillie
McGrath
Warne
Thompson
Lee
Johnson
McDermott
Gillmoore
Gillespie

Thats 9
Report The Dragon June 27, 2023 7:40 AM BST
sorry missed lyon

fair point about smith to be fair
Report brentford June 27, 2023 12:03 PM BST
well whilst I take WD's point that stats aren't everything....coming into the series his bowling average was better than all of those mentioned...has now slipped just below McGrath

takes a huge personal leaning to believe that despite that those 9 are all better than him...

of Australians to have taken 100 wickets or more only CBT Turner (1887-1895) AK Davidson (1953-63) H.Trumble (1890-1904) and now after the 1st Test GD McGrath

DK Lillee - 23.93 (certainly a credible shout)
SK Warne - 25.42 (think most would say Warne was at least a more valuable player despite a slightly inferior average)
JR Thompson - 28.01 (could argue his comeback stats hurt to a degree)
Brett Lee -   30.80  (barely worthy of a response exciting though he was)
MG Johnson 28.41 not sure one decent series makes you an all time great (sorry Chris Broad)
JN Gillespie (26.14) a decent bowler and very good at his best but record suggests Cummins has him covered comfortably to this point
McDermott (28.63( again barely even merits a response decent bowler though he was
Gillmore   23.00 only played 15 tests assuming I've got the correct fella.. is obvs a good ave but way too small a sample size (see Boland) and was dropped with Max Walker preferred in the 74-75 ashes..so a hard one to make any case for
Report brentford June 27, 2023 12:05 PM BST
and Lyon a flat no ave 31.00 with the ball
Report brentford June 27, 2023 12:09 PM BST
*correction on Gilmour as quoted his batting average ...bowling average of 26.04 so nothing much to suggest he needs a second look..
Report Whisperingdeath June 27, 2023 12:44 PM BST
I think Cummins is a special player. Would be interested to see how Lee or Gillespie did without McGrath it Warne. I think MJ was better than Lee but again had great players alongside him. Not sure Starc and Hazelwood are in the Pantheon though top top bowlers on their day. I really like Starc but he has plenty of mediocre days for someone possessed with such physical gifts from the Gods
Report Whisperingdeath June 27, 2023 12:45 PM BST
Gil our us a No and Hazelwood better than McDermott imho
Report The Dragon June 27, 2023 6:16 PM BST
intersting reponse dd brenford but does not cover the impact that the players have had and is totally statistically based which we all know nevwer tells the real story.

cummins is not an impact bowlwer imvho and i dont recall any test that he ,with his bowling, affected a test never mind a series.

most of the players i have quoted had an impact on the ashes at some stage in theit career.

cummins has just had that with the bat not the ball.

stats prove nothing
Report layingisthewayforward June 27, 2023 7:31 PM BST
Couldn't disagree more. We got into a winning position,thanks in part to the declaration. We failed to execute in the last hour when we had them 8 down. Simples.
Report brentford June 27, 2023 8:03 PM BST
come off it Dragon....he took 5/38 in the 1st inns of the 1st Test in the last ashes series...helped set the tone for the whole series...

ended up with 21 wickets @ 18.05 (missed one game)

the 2019 ashes in England 29 wickets @ 19.62

that's  pretty definitively having a major impact in Ashes series..
Report The Dragon June 27, 2023 8:51 PM BST
if i remember rightly that was the 5-0 whitewash boys v men

not one that i would count tbf
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