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03 Nov 09
12:04
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Date Joined:
06 Feb 04
Somersets Craig Kieswetter has been called into the England Performance Programme (EPP) and will spend eight weeks training at the National Cricket Performance Centre in Loughborough and CSA High Performance Centre in South Africa during November and December.
The England Performance Programme comprises 42 players who have been divided into squads according to their differing stages of development. Kieswetter will join 10 other players in the 'B' group- players with experience of first-class cricket who are expected to need 1-3 years of development before graduating into the England team.
The England Performance Programme comprises 42 players who have been divided into squads according to their differing stages of development. Kieswetter will join 10 other players in the 'B' group- players with experience of first-class cricket who are expected to need 1-3 years of development before graduating into the England team.
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Seems like anyone who's ever taken a dump in south africa is called up by England.
Looked ordinary in the 20/20 Champions League.
Fed up of all these South Africans playing for England.
Getting beyond a joke now.
We are a laughing stock because of it.
Non of these blokes should be in our side.
Getting beyond a joke now.
We are a laughing stock because of it.
Non of these blokes should be in our side.
Fed up of all these South Africans playing for England.
know what you mean bud. after all, they will never commit to central contracts, will they. they'd much rather be mercenaries available to the highest bidder, and live in abu dhabi.
none of our brave english boys would ever do such a thing.
know what you mean bud. after all, they will never commit to central contracts, will they. they'd much rather be mercenaries available to the highest bidder, and live in abu dhabi.
none of our brave english boys would ever do such a thing.
This isnt about Andrew Flintoff chump. Its about whether a player born and brought up in another country and come over play a few years in county cricket and suddenly be allowed to play for England.
Just doesnt sit well with me at all.
Just doesnt sit well with me at all.
call me old-fashioned (which I am) SY but totally agree :|
But, where do you draw the line? Someone born of overseas parenthood, someone born in part of the Old Empire or at least schooled there in early years? Someone who just rocks up coz they can under present imigration/sports ruling laws......??
However, we shouldn't forget than we once Ruled the Waves and could (rightly) extract talent from where ever Rex or Regina had bonified territories ;)
Sadly, it's no longer a moot point; been happening for years, Hick, Lamb, R Smith.................the Nawab of Pataudi to name but a few .....
But, where do you draw the line? Someone born of overseas parenthood, someone born in part of the Old Empire or at least schooled there in early years? Someone who just rocks up coz they can under present imigration/sports ruling laws......??
However, we shouldn't forget than we once Ruled the Waves and could (rightly) extract talent from where ever Rex or Regina had bonified territories ;)
Sadly, it's no longer a moot point; been happening for years, Hick, Lamb, R Smith.................the Nawab of Pataudi to name but a few .....
its a sad testament to the lack of talent being produced within the english system :(
SY, these blokes ? are you sure you're from middlesbrough and not melbourne. ? ;) with you on this one though. ridiculous that 3 or 4 years residency qualifies you to play sport for a particular country.
Spot on anyother, basically England picking up the scraps the relative nations have no interest in. Might get arguably lucky as in the KP case as situation decrees but generally not a positive reflection in terms of the strength of the England team. It is not as if they are poaching other countries' best players but simply jumping on cast-offs. Getting enough oversees players and binding them by giving a single odi cap might turn up a few international class players in the long term but not really a tasteful endeavor.
I'm very glad to see the sentiment here is for England to stop picking these economic migrants, if we can call them that. As a supporter of any country I'd be more pleased to see the best xi that country could produce get beaten regularly than a team half full of mercenaries doing 'better.'
The argument in the 70's, 80's and 90's was probably slightly different given South Africa's expulsion from international sport over apartheid. If a South African cricketer wanted to play international cricket he had to emigrate, he had no other choice. The player concerned could say he is motivated by lack of choice, and a burning desire to play at the highest level. A similar argument could legitimately be used for Irish players now.
Pietersen is about the most galling of this current crop as he was actually playing at first class level in South Africa before opting to go to England and turn his back on the country and system in which he had grown up. He simply thought going to England provided better opportunities for HIM. Trott similarly represented South Africa at u/19 level before deciding he was English after all. I think Prior and Keiswetter committed at an earlier stage of their development but as far as I know they went to England for the sole purpose of pursuing greater cricketing opportunities there. All of these players and Darrin Pattinson, Geraint Jones, Tim Ambrose and Dimitri Mascahrenas who are all essentially Australian only came to England for cricketing opportuities as far as I know. There are probably more I cannot bring to mind right now.
It would not necessarily surprise me if England's longer term performance improved rather than deteriorated in the event England decided to stop choosing players who could have pursued an full international career in another country yet came to England in preference. A player who chooses to do that immediately has a huge question mark over his confidence in his own ability or his character/motivation or both from where I sit. Either way, you don't want them.
Where do you draw the line? If the player develops as a cricketer in another test playing country and comes to England solely to pursue a more lucrative cricket career, he should be automatically excluded. A genuine refugee should be qualified after a reasonable time. Someone whose parents immigrate to England when they are younger should be fine.
As for Kieswetter, he looks like he will be a decent cricketer though he has it all to prove yet. He is very young and should improve plenty with exposurel but as was suggested earlier, he wasn't up to it in the CL.
Trescothick
Strauss(c)
Cook
Bell
Bopara
Mustard
Flintoff
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Sidebottom
wouldn't be too bad a team to start with if you could get them all on the park. Who knows, if playing for England meant you weren't playing for a foreign legion it just might mean that bit more....
The argument in the 70's, 80's and 90's was probably slightly different given South Africa's expulsion from international sport over apartheid. If a South African cricketer wanted to play international cricket he had to emigrate, he had no other choice. The player concerned could say he is motivated by lack of choice, and a burning desire to play at the highest level. A similar argument could legitimately be used for Irish players now.
Pietersen is about the most galling of this current crop as he was actually playing at first class level in South Africa before opting to go to England and turn his back on the country and system in which he had grown up. He simply thought going to England provided better opportunities for HIM. Trott similarly represented South Africa at u/19 level before deciding he was English after all. I think Prior and Keiswetter committed at an earlier stage of their development but as far as I know they went to England for the sole purpose of pursuing greater cricketing opportunities there. All of these players and Darrin Pattinson, Geraint Jones, Tim Ambrose and Dimitri Mascahrenas who are all essentially Australian only came to England for cricketing opportuities as far as I know. There are probably more I cannot bring to mind right now.
It would not necessarily surprise me if England's longer term performance improved rather than deteriorated in the event England decided to stop choosing players who could have pursued an full international career in another country yet came to England in preference. A player who chooses to do that immediately has a huge question mark over his confidence in his own ability or his character/motivation or both from where I sit. Either way, you don't want them.
Where do you draw the line? If the player develops as a cricketer in another test playing country and comes to England solely to pursue a more lucrative cricket career, he should be automatically excluded. A genuine refugee should be qualified after a reasonable time. Someone whose parents immigrate to England when they are younger should be fine.
As for Kieswetter, he looks like he will be a decent cricketer though he has it all to prove yet. He is very young and should improve plenty with exposurel but as was suggested earlier, he wasn't up to it in the CL.
Trescothick
Strauss(c)
Cook
Bell
Bopara
Mustard
Flintoff
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Sidebottom
wouldn't be too bad a team to start with if you could get them all on the park. Who knows, if playing for England meant you weren't playing for a foreign legion it just might mean that bit more....
KP's mum is English yer know!
Counts for something in my book.
Counts for something in my book.
What would you think if Bopara or someone like that sauntered off to play with India because one of his parents was Indian and he reasoned he could do better there Lix?
I mean 2 years ago or so when he had shown enormous potential as a first class cricketer and just wanted to get to India as soon as possible to get his 4 years up for qualification. Let's say it was pretty clear to a Bopara that he'd have made a lot more money doing that and he started citing racism within English cricket selection as his reason for making the move, after he had been raised in England and been heavily invested in by the English cricket system.
I agree the parental connection could give a cricketer more chance of identifying with another country but surely we all identify more with the country in which we grow up and develop.
In Pietersen's case, do you think his mother coming from England was the reason he chose to some here? Or do you think it was more along the lines of him thinking the opportunities would be better for HIM?
I mean 2 years ago or so when he had shown enormous potential as a first class cricketer and just wanted to get to India as soon as possible to get his 4 years up for qualification. Let's say it was pretty clear to a Bopara that he'd have made a lot more money doing that and he started citing racism within English cricket selection as his reason for making the move, after he had been raised in England and been heavily invested in by the English cricket system.
I agree the parental connection could give a cricketer more chance of identifying with another country but surely we all identify more with the country in which we grow up and develop.
In Pietersen's case, do you think his mother coming from England was the reason he chose to some here? Or do you think it was more along the lines of him thinking the opportunities would be better for HIM?
About time we had another bout of KP bashing from our resident broken record on the subject.
I can only surmise from DE's outrage at KP acting in his own best interest that he goes through his life deliberately following courses of action counter-productive to his own best interests!
I can only surmise from DE's outrage at KP acting in his own best interest that he goes through his life deliberately following courses of action counter-productive to his own best interests!
You construe things as you wish RM, don't let me spoil your fun, but I have got some homework for you as per. :)
My criticism here is of the English system for welcoming players whose desire to feather their own nests overrides their desire to represent the country with which they most identify. Pietersen is merely the most obvious of examples as he had already commenced a first class career in South Africa before realising his true love was England. ;)
Do you think it is a good policy to welcome such players? At the extreme, would you identify as much with an England team containing more genuine foreigners than genuine Britons? Would you be comfortable with xi K Pietersen types(ie grew up in another country then chose to qualify for England instead) representing England at the same time? If not, whynot?
This will be interesting....
My criticism here is of the English system for welcoming players whose desire to feather their own nests overrides their desire to represent the country with which they most identify. Pietersen is merely the most obvious of examples as he had already commenced a first class career in South Africa before realising his true love was England. ;)
Do you think it is a good policy to welcome such players? At the extreme, would you identify as much with an England team containing more genuine foreigners than genuine Britons? Would you be comfortable with xi K Pietersen types(ie grew up in another country then chose to qualify for England instead) representing England at the same time? If not, whynot?
This will be interesting....
Pietersen is merely the most obvious of examples as he had already commenced a first class career in South Africa before realising his true love was England.
He was not selected for many matches for Natal due to the quota system. Not unreasonably, and Clive Rice advised him also, he felt his career would be held back under that quota system.
He was not selected for many matches for Natal due to the quota system. Not unreasonably, and Clive Rice advised him also, he felt his career would be held back under that quota system.
its a can of worms but i still believe it holds back the developement of homegrown talent
I'd like to see the rules simplified. You can play for any country where you have a full passport (dual doesn't count) and once you've played international cricket of any format (for a test playing country), that's it you can't play for any other team (test playing).
bedwetter makes matty look like bob taylor with the gloves on. Has dusty miller ever seen him crocodiling behind the stumps?
DE
Leg pulling apart, our views are probably not that dissimilar on this subject. It is hugely depressing how the England authorities seemingly can't wait to snap anyone up who qualifies under current rules, no matter how tenuous their links may be.
The players themselves can hardly be blamed though for taking advantage of current legislation, particularly players who would not have been good enough to play for their country of origin/birth or wotever, but can get a game for another team, usually England, although Roger Twose was an example where it worked the opposite way.
For the simple reason that Pietersen would get in any team I don't object to him playing for England as much as, say Ambrose, Craig White, Martin McCague, Darren Pattinson or any number of others who have only decided to play for England because they were not good enough for Australia.
Pietersen has actually opted for England having genuinely made a choice whereas the others mentioned have just taken any chance they can to play International cricket, with the team they are playing for being of secondary importance.
Leg pulling apart, our views are probably not that dissimilar on this subject. It is hugely depressing how the England authorities seemingly can't wait to snap anyone up who qualifies under current rules, no matter how tenuous their links may be.
The players themselves can hardly be blamed though for taking advantage of current legislation, particularly players who would not have been good enough to play for their country of origin/birth or wotever, but can get a game for another team, usually England, although Roger Twose was an example where it worked the opposite way.
For the simple reason that Pietersen would get in any team I don't object to him playing for England as much as, say Ambrose, Craig White, Martin McCague, Darren Pattinson or any number of others who have only decided to play for England because they were not good enough for Australia.
Pietersen has actually opted for England having genuinely made a choice whereas the others mentioned have just taken any chance they can to play International cricket, with the team they are playing for being of secondary importance.
Yes, agree with all that. I don't blame the players for feathering their own nests, I just think they become poison for the receiving country when they do it, so I wouldn't be touching them, other than the ones who can't otherwise play at the highest level or genuine refugees as I said.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/cricket/article6903489.ece
On the same theme
On the same theme
Not wishing to get too involved in this one,
I think if one of your parents qualifies you it's perfectly acceptable..
simply spending the 'professional' years of your career over here is something else though in no way a knock on the player, more the rule book.
I think if one of your parents qualifies you it's perfectly acceptable..
simply spending the 'professional' years of your career over here is something else though in no way a knock on the player, more the rule book.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/oliverbrett/2009/11/post.html
Everyman & his dog are having their say-cricket forum setting the meeja agenda as usual ;-)
Everyman & his dog are having their say-cricket forum setting the meeja agenda as usual ;-)
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