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08 Nov 15
11:21
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05 Apr 06
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To all those elements that hate us remember these old b"ggers are the reason we are here and not in 'camps'. They took on an evil ideology and defeated it so do not mess with us.
would you take up arms for the same cause today mobo?
against the nazis - most definitely - they threatened our very existence and the old b"ggers are the reason you and I are able to freely(?) post on here otherwise we would just be slave labour(if you read what Hitler's plan was after the invasion)
Well Im certainly no Nazi sympathiser and have tried reading Mein Kampf a couple of times but gave up.
Many of the allegations of 'evil' against the nazis were simply them emulating the English.
It would be a toss up for me tbh, why would I defend this totalitarianism by proxy?
Let the politicians fight for themselves.
For me Remembrance Day is more symbolic of the Great War, being that it has the poppy and that far more died in it.
There again Id not take up arms because the queens family were playing Imperial war games.
Many of the allegations of 'evil' against the nazis were simply them emulating the English.
It would be a toss up for me tbh, why would I defend this totalitarianism by proxy?
Let the politicians fight for themselves.
For me Remembrance Day is more symbolic of the Great War, being that it has the poppy and that far more died in it.
There again Id not take up arms because the queens family were playing Imperial war games.
Seems to me these turn outs with the royals present with politicans leaves a distinct taste in the mouth when it was those 'normal' folk's bravery that defended their lot
not to diminish any of the sacrifice made by british soldiers in both of the world wars, but we owe our freedom and way of life just as much, arguably more, to the russians.
nothing to do with hitler's book but what the policy for england was after the invasion
you should check it out
as for ww1 I may agree with you, but specifically against the nazis I am an unequivocal yes
you should check it out
as for ww1 I may agree with you, but specifically against the nazis I am an unequivocal yes
There is a lot of manipulation used both in times of war and in peace.
I cant say as Im aware of the plans you refer to, nor how genuine they may have been.
There were some extremely brave acts done by mostly people who hadnt involved themselves directly with the issues that were being faught for.
But they neednt have if humans hadnt been so greedy and stupid.
Thats artificial division for you, the making of scapegoats and lambasting of 'an enemy'
Its as prevalent today as it was back then, only I dont think sending a white feather through the post would do much in encouraging the people to throw their lives away today so others can continue to lavish themselves in riches.
I cant say as Im aware of the plans you refer to, nor how genuine they may have been.
There were some extremely brave acts done by mostly people who hadnt involved themselves directly with the issues that were being faught for.
But they neednt have if humans hadnt been so greedy and stupid.
Thats artificial division for you, the making of scapegoats and lambasting of 'an enemy'
Its as prevalent today as it was back then, only I dont think sending a white feather through the post would do much in encouraging the people to throw their lives away today so others can continue to lavish themselves in riches.
As usual, remembrance days can't be passed without leftist apologists making a fool of themselves. Still, if you died against a belgian wall in 1914 or in a gulag or being r*ped by a soviet soldier, I'm sure Corbyn and his friends on this forum would be on your side.
Tweeting thier anger about how "imperialism" drove them to it.
Do you have ANY idea how either war started, beyond blackadder?
Seriously, go read a proper book on it, and not by a socioligy guardian luvvie.
Tweeting thier anger about how "imperialism" drove them to it.
Do you have ANY idea how either war started, beyond blackadder?
Seriously, go read a proper book on it, and not by a socioligy guardian luvvie.
Oh dear dusty - I thought you would be au fait with this subject as you appear to have knowledge If you don't know even the plans arranged for after the invasion what else do you not know. I suppose it is not really fair to pick on you as I have had the luxury of being able to study these areas in some depth. I will see if there is an on line link to add to your further knowledge. If not I will have to quote from some of my collection on the subject.
Colonialism had a direct effect that brought about war, with misguided influences of those in power tricking the common folk that they should protect the good thing we all have as a result of the deviant acts of plunder.
The kaiser was wanting to emulate what the british empire were doing and threw their hat into a parochial issue that resulted in war of defending our own interests.
The franco=prussian wars had recently occurred before as well as the boer war which was directly an interest driven war in africa based on colonies.
The kaiser was wanting to emulate what the british empire were doing and threw their hat into a parochial issue that resulted in war of defending our own interests.
The franco=prussian wars had recently occurred before as well as the boer war which was directly an interest driven war in africa based on colonies.
Do you stand outside student unions selling red headed newspapers? FFS...
All those straigh lines on the map of districts of africa....where do you think they came from?
It was the carving up by the colonialists that were hungry for control....which was synonymous with the geo political environment of those that encouraged their subjects to die for those in control.
It was the carving up by the colonialists that were hungry for control....which was synonymous with the geo political environment of those that encouraged their subjects to die for those in control.
That comment I have no idea of the plans or whether they were genuine smacks of the usual apologist's stance oh dear. As if Hitler and his gestapo friends were just going to hand out cuddly toys like they did in poland, ukraine, lithuania, etc etc. The plans there were genuine there were they - or not!!?? It really is a terrifying gap in your understanding of what it was about.
I didn't think I would find anyone who could have anything but 100 percent opposition to hitler or to try and play down what hitler had in mind for all of europe.
mobo
what I said was I wasnt aware of the plans or of how genuine they may have been.
There was a hell of a lot of propaganda on both sides.
Its true the nazis wanted to do a lot of bad things, many of which they had copied from the british ffs
what I said was I wasnt aware of the plans or of how genuine they may have been.
There was a hell of a lot of propaganda on both sides.
Its true the nazis wanted to do a lot of bad things, many of which they had copied from the british ffs
Oh I see so we had plans to subjugate the germans in 1940. To enslave and cart off all the fit young men for the factories. Excellent. Can you give me a quote?
concentration camps and eugenics were british inventions mobo
sorry but what were the plans in 1940 that the germans copied from us ?
don't try and divert and obfuscate - you have implied that the plans weren't real and then leap off to concentration camps and the british
the plans hitler had for the uk have nothing to do with what you are implying
the plans hitler had for the uk have nothing to do with what you are implying
????
look above mobo
Im happy having this argument if you wish but I cant keep pointing things out between races
Hitler was emulating the colonialist principles that had been established by the powers of europe, concentration camps and eugenics were two principles created by the british
look above mobo
Im happy having this argument if you wish but I cant keep pointing things out between races
Hitler was emulating the colonialist principles that had been established by the powers of europe, concentration camps and eugenics were two principles created by the british
no I didnt mobo
I said I personally wasnt aware of them (incidentally Ive read plenty over the years that implied Hitler had great respect for britain)
I also said that of the material you are convinced of, I personally wouldnt know how accurate it was
I said I personally wasnt aware of them (incidentally Ive read plenty over the years that implied Hitler had great respect for britain)
I also said that of the material you are convinced of, I personally wouldnt know how accurate it was
Here we go again, a modern thing to question WW2 etc. etc.
Look, let's get it straight. Today is about remembering those who fell in conflict. That is all. It is not political, it is not a chance to question what happened many years ago and it is certainly not an opportunity to be critical of the morals of a long, long time ago.
My father was very badly injured at Arnhem (a Bridge Too Far) and was proud of his conscripted war service. He didn't question it at the time and never did until his death 40 years later.
Two other things:
1/ No nation in modern times ever tried to do what the Nazis did to the Jews, yes the holocaust was real. They had to be stopped for that alone.
2/ Dustybin - your views are not altogether foolish but please take this from an older man. You lose credibility with my generation and those older by misspelling fought with faught!! The o and the a and too far apart on keyboards for it to be a typo..
Look, let's get it straight. Today is about remembering those who fell in conflict. That is all. It is not political, it is not a chance to question what happened many years ago and it is certainly not an opportunity to be critical of the morals of a long, long time ago.
My father was very badly injured at Arnhem (a Bridge Too Far) and was proud of his conscripted war service. He didn't question it at the time and never did until his death 40 years later.
Two other things:
1/ No nation in modern times ever tried to do what the Nazis did to the Jews, yes the holocaust was real. They had to be stopped for that alone.
2/ Dustybin - your views are not altogether foolish but please take this from an older man. You lose credibility with my generation and those older by misspelling fought with faught!! The o and the a and too far apart on keyboards for it to be a typo..
Im also happy to read the sources to which you refer.
Will you do the same if I supplied information that supports my beliefs?
Will you do the same if I supplied information that supports my beliefs?
you just don't want to accept what I have said about hitler's plans after the invasion of england -very simple
I don't know what is wrong with you apologists. It is like implying or even saying hitler would not have been all that bad if he had taken britain.
You people are scary - almost like re writing history.
I don't know what is wrong with you apologists. It is like implying or even saying hitler would not have been all that bad if he had taken britain.
You people are scary - almost like re writing history.
It is not a belief I am inerested in but what actually happened and what the plans actually were.
NOTHING TO DO WITH BELIEFS!!!!
NOTHING TO DO WITH BELIEFS!!!!
the knight
I have the death penny on my wall from my great grandfather who was killed as a result of paschendale
I have a vested interest in the reasons to remember, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt question the reasons things happened the way they did.
I have the death penny on my wall from my great grandfather who was killed as a result of paschendale
I have a vested interest in the reasons to remember, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt question the reasons things happened the way they did.
Just pack all the soldiers off to fight on foreign soil, no questioned asked. its patriotic
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
pmsl btw
I need to get the respect of the pedantic because I misspelled something?
I need to get the respect of the pedantic because I misspelled something?
much better to have had hitler take over then you would have flourished dusty
and I am not talking about ww1 i am talking about hitlers plans for england after the invasion
I flourished anyway mobo
I told you Im no supporter of fascism
I told you Im no supporter of fascism
Undoubtedly, many, many in the first and second world wars were very brave. They were fighting for their country, for their families, their way of life, for their freedom to believe and to speak without fear.
BUT the Falklands (although I'm not wholly sure), Iraq, Afghanistan are manufactured wars by politicians - terribly wrong.
I mean ... keeping the streets of Britain safe ... so we go into Afghanistan.
The fookers who want to kill us on the streets of Britain are already here - they already have killed and maimed British people on the streets of Britain. And they want to do it some more.
And the politicians have let them in, and their forbears with their poisonous racist beliefs.
And we stupidly are still letting them in.
BUT the Falklands (although I'm not wholly sure), Iraq, Afghanistan are manufactured wars by politicians - terribly wrong.
I mean ... keeping the streets of Britain safe ... so we go into Afghanistan.
The fookers who want to kill us on the streets of Britain are already here - they already have killed and maimed British people on the streets of Britain. And they want to do it some more.
And the politicians have let them in, and their forbears with their poisonous racist beliefs.
And we stupidly are still letting them in.
dusty would hand the keys to hitler and the islamists who are next in the queue to take over
Good show but the North Koreans do this sort of thimg so much better.
My old man survived the war.
He says it's about time we remembered the deaths of all war dead not just our own.
He says it's about time we remembered the deaths of all war dead not just our own.
It's an honourable sentiment injera, and a not uncommon one.
I was reading only yesterday about the Red Baron and the respect they gave him on his death even though he was proficient at killing allied airmen. The man himself had silver cups made for each of his confirmed shoot downs but when silver ran scarce he refused to have metal cups made and decided to stop with it.
However forthright people believe my views to be the truth is my great grandfather died as a result of kitchener's second wave of conscription (he only just qualified on the upper age, even when the country was running out of fodder) and my grandfather was in North Africa and survived the Second World War but distanced himself of the whole affair and would never talk of it.
Both of them were dragged in whether they believed in the cause or not. You tend to find many innocent men who on both sides had nothing to do with the affair get dragged into it.
Just as today non of the decisions that are made are mine, my hands are clean as were my ancestors.
You'd have to have to believe in something pretty strongly to lay your life down for that cause, my original question was posed to mobo about whether he would now, he entitled to say he would, but I see it as tasset agreement or defence of the odious actions that weren't of my making.
I was reading only yesterday about the Red Baron and the respect they gave him on his death even though he was proficient at killing allied airmen. The man himself had silver cups made for each of his confirmed shoot downs but when silver ran scarce he refused to have metal cups made and decided to stop with it.
However forthright people believe my views to be the truth is my great grandfather died as a result of kitchener's second wave of conscription (he only just qualified on the upper age, even when the country was running out of fodder) and my grandfather was in North Africa and survived the Second World War but distanced himself of the whole affair and would never talk of it.
Both of them were dragged in whether they believed in the cause or not. You tend to find many innocent men who on both sides had nothing to do with the affair get dragged into it.
Just as today non of the decisions that are made are mine, my hands are clean as were my ancestors.
You'd have to have to believe in something pretty strongly to lay your life down for that cause, my original question was posed to mobo about whether he would now, he entitled to say he would, but I see it as tasset agreement or defence of the odious actions that weren't of my making.
It should all be so simple.
You buy and wear a poppy because it's a symbol of a gratitude far greater than you can ever express, to members of our armed forces who gave their limbs, mental health and lives to preserve the tattered remnants of our freedom.
You are making no comment on the politics behind that sacrifice.
You are not endorsing war (war being the utter nadir of man's existence).
You are not remembering 'our' armed forces above everyone else's (there's a certain American vet who I know my family remember and think about with all our hearts on this day).
You are not using it as a marketing exercise to parade your notional good taste ('Oh this? My silk / bling encrusted poppy? Oh yes, it goes so well with my handbag and outsized ego dahling').
You don't feel smug and superior to anyone not wearing one and you certainly don't challenge their caring credentials (remember that bit about freedom in the opening paragraph?)
It was great and very emotional to see the turnout this morning at the War Memorial in my village. One great collective act of remembrance, by babies through to pensioners, with everyone sporting a simple British Legion poppy.
Well that's my take on it.
You buy and wear a poppy because it's a symbol of a gratitude far greater than you can ever express, to members of our armed forces who gave their limbs, mental health and lives to preserve the tattered remnants of our freedom.
You are making no comment on the politics behind that sacrifice.
You are not endorsing war (war being the utter nadir of man's existence).
You are not remembering 'our' armed forces above everyone else's (there's a certain American vet who I know my family remember and think about with all our hearts on this day).
You are not using it as a marketing exercise to parade your notional good taste ('Oh this? My silk / bling encrusted poppy? Oh yes, it goes so well with my handbag and outsized ego dahling').
You don't feel smug and superior to anyone not wearing one and you certainly don't challenge their caring credentials (remember that bit about freedom in the opening paragraph?)
It was great and very emotional to see the turnout this morning at the War Memorial in my village. One great collective act of remembrance, by babies through to pensioners, with everyone sporting a simple British Legion poppy.
Well that's my take on it.
Good post Dusty.
My concern is that we 'remember' and do not 'learn' from history.
War = failure.
WW1 should of course never have happened. Egos, pride, arrogance, misunderstandings etc caused it. From there we had Hitler's vengeance brought about because of WW1.
And so it goes on..
I respect a soldier's courage but so many were conscripted and did what they were told or they would be shot. More recently, kids have been sent to die for political conflicts. My emotion is more pity than admiration.
As for those who have survived Iraq and Afgan, no mention, and I mean NO mention has been made of how many THEY have killed, injured, traumatised and brutalised in their obedience to their superiors..
My concern is that we 'remember' and do not 'learn' from history.
War = failure.
WW1 should of course never have happened. Egos, pride, arrogance, misunderstandings etc caused it. From there we had Hitler's vengeance brought about because of WW1.
And so it goes on..
I respect a soldier's courage but so many were conscripted and did what they were told or they would be shot. More recently, kids have been sent to die for political conflicts. My emotion is more pity than admiration.
As for those who have survived Iraq and Afgan, no mention, and I mean NO mention has been made of how many THEY have killed, injured, traumatised and brutalised in their obedience to their superiors..
my friends father was a victim of w.w.2 and an uncle I had waslost.
Do we really have to put up with all this rememberance each and every year? Just listened to Nicholas Witchell on the BBC news. I think I'm in North Korea. And then having some silly posh boy soldier get another dig in on Corbyn. Team GB, obsessed with the war. Get over it. Sinerely hope the next generation leaves it in the past, where it is. History.
I don't think we should forget sacrifice, it's perhaps the greatest of all virtues, but it can be dangerous if rememberence has some link to jingoistic beliefs or is used as symbolic by the leaders to remind all that there is a patriotic duty to protect them.
People are wiser now, people feel more disincentivised with ruling classes or guff political processes, I've often believed conscription wouldn't stand a chance today, the mass of people refusing would be too great.
People are wiser now, people feel more disincentivised with ruling classes or guff political processes, I've often believed conscription wouldn't stand a chance today, the mass of people refusing would be too great.
dustybin 08 Nov 15 12:53
Seems to me these turn outs with the royals present with politicans leaves a distinct taste in the mouth when it was those 'normal' folk's bravery that defended their lot
Spot on. The true reason for the day has long been lost. Now it's pure tokenism.
Seems to me these turn outs with the royals present with politicans leaves a distinct taste in the mouth when it was those 'normal' folk's bravery that defended their lot
Spot on. The true reason for the day has long been lost. Now it's pure tokenism.
There is a big difference between today's armed forces and those in WW1 and 2.
I find it hard to have sympathy with people who join up today.
I find it hard to have sympathy with people who join up today.
People are wiser now, people feel more disincentivised with ruling classes or guff political processes, I've often believed conscription wouldn't stand a chance today, the mass of people refusing would be too great.
Don't confuse wisdom with cynicism
Don't confuse wisdom with cynicism
I am glad I would never have most of you sort standing by me in an area of conlict - you are truly frightening.
rogerthebutler says it all and very eloquently in my view.
Injeras post is fantastic. Peter hitchens was screamed down years ago on QT when he stated a simple fact that most army recruits come from extremely poor backgrounds where they are indirectly forced into the army through lack of wisdom and naivety.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWbwIwAhsYw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWbwIwAhsYw
as I have said before - most of you would be debating whether or not it was legal to fight an evil ideology(nazism) while they swept ashore - if that sort of attitude had been allowed
just as the same peacenik attitude you have towards the latest ideology to threaten our way of life
just as the same peacenik attitude you have towards the latest ideology to threaten our way of life
Roger
The cynics contributed a hell of a lot towards how civilisations should act, it's only that most of it isn't understood by contemporary society who have been told opportunism and throat cutting is virtuous.
Mobo
You like to single out a window in history without entertaining the wider picture.
The question of a present danger on the doorstep didn't just spring up with little or no warning it was the result of a number of things, many of which had been within our control and indeed occurred BECAUSE of our actions.
To say that an individual who had no influence on those events is wrong because they don't instinctively give the answer you want is unfair, it's like saying 'we f ucked everything up and now you are wrong because you arnt supplying the laying down your life as a result'
The cynics contributed a hell of a lot towards how civilisations should act, it's only that most of it isn't understood by contemporary society who have been told opportunism and throat cutting is virtuous.
Mobo
You like to single out a window in history without entertaining the wider picture.
The question of a present danger on the doorstep didn't just spring up with little or no warning it was the result of a number of things, many of which had been within our control and indeed occurred BECAUSE of our actions.
To say that an individual who had no influence on those events is wrong because they don't instinctively give the answer you want is unfair, it's like saying 'we f ucked everything up and now you are wrong because you arnt supplying the laying down your life as a result'
How about telling us about your great grandfather ? what age was he ? What regiment was he in ?
I dare say everyone on here has relatives with involvement and if you don't know I believe it's your duty to find out.
My other great grandfather was an engineer for the air corps, survived ww1 and come ww2 was old enough to refuse when they asked him to do the same.
What turned out to be his son in law (my other grandfather) built battleships and wasn't allowed to join up due to his specialities in manufacturing
My other great grandfather was an engineer for the air corps, survived ww1 and come ww2 was old enough to refuse when they asked him to do the same.
What turned out to be his son in law (my other grandfather) built battleships and wasn't allowed to join up due to his specialities in manufacturing
You sound proud of them and so you should be , today is about remembering the fallen ,thats what it is about ,not a day for politics imo .My own grandfather was a boy sailor in 1915 was lucky and lived to tell the tale but the casualties suffered in the trenches were immense and should never be forgotten .
I understand your point breadnbutter
Though it's not pride I feel as much as it is pity.
Not one of my ancestors were professional soldiers and that's the telling factor; non of them chose to do it.
Some glory in it on erroneous patriotic grounds almost.
For me it's anger I feel that they and each and everyone of them that had no interest in war had to do it because of the ills of man and the idiocracy of leadership that doesn't deserve our respect.
Though it's not pride I feel as much as it is pity.
Not one of my ancestors were professional soldiers and that's the telling factor; non of them chose to do it.
Some glory in it on erroneous patriotic grounds almost.
For me it's anger I feel that they and each and everyone of them that had no interest in war had to do it because of the ills of man and the idiocracy of leadership that doesn't deserve our respect.
Incidentally, I believe we are products of our environment and the effects of all the hollow gestures of politicians today regarding what I see as state driven mercenary and the results of those before them in wrong deceitful and ultimately greedy actions are cause and effect have resulted in me being a political nihilist.
One of the saddest poems I ever read was about ww1.
It was about a mother sat at home wondering about her son and how he was while she knitted him socks, and all the time he was already dead and his skull was getting trampled dealer into the mud.
One of the saddest poems I ever read was about ww1.
It was about a mother sat at home wondering about her son and how he was while she knitted him socks, and all the time he was already dead and his skull was getting trampled dealer into the mud.
b.t.w. Kaiser bill was queen victorias son ,to her german husband albert
Roger
The cynics contributed a hell of a lot towards how civilisations should act, it's only that most of it isn't understood by contemporary society who have been told opportunism and throat cutting is virtuous.
Tell me more.
Especially how every civilization in mankind's history has been built on opportunism and throat cutting. Tell me about the Spartans and their moderate and thoughtful attitude to their world.
I can only re-iterate the point I made yesterday.
War is not something in which to glorify, but Rememberance Day for me is still about saying a heartfelt thanks to all those - whether conscripted or otherwise - who gave their lives for our freedom today.
You can debate the nature and extent of that 'freedom' and the politics behind the conflicts in which those Forces fought, but not on Rememberance day.
Of course, I am increasingly in the minority with the above view, with the politicisation of the poppy as well as its 'blinging up' and castigation of anyone not wearing one.
The cynics contributed a hell of a lot towards how civilisations should act, it's only that most of it isn't understood by contemporary society who have been told opportunism and throat cutting is virtuous.
Tell me more.
Especially how every civilization in mankind's history has been built on opportunism and throat cutting. Tell me about the Spartans and their moderate and thoughtful attitude to their world.
I can only re-iterate the point I made yesterday.
War is not something in which to glorify, but Rememberance Day for me is still about saying a heartfelt thanks to all those - whether conscripted or otherwise - who gave their lives for our freedom today.
You can debate the nature and extent of that 'freedom' and the politics behind the conflicts in which those Forces fought, but not on Rememberance day.
Of course, I am increasingly in the minority with the above view, with the politicisation of the poppy as well as its 'blinging up' and castigation of anyone not wearing one.
learner
not her son but her grandson. His mother was Victoria but that Victoria was the eldest daughter of Victoria and Albert.
not her son but her grandson. His mother was Victoria but that Victoria was the eldest daughter of Victoria and Albert.
Roger.
I could happily tell you more but it would be more convenient for you to go read about the school of cynasim and I accept the sentiment that this isn't the place for that analysis.
But I will say that it's ironic you mentioning the Spartans, as a form of indoctrination of its people it would be a particularly hard sell to make the people believe they were worth emulating.....instead they chose the Greeks with which to attempt to condition the collective psyche of today.
In reference to the point about sacrifice, I agree. Though I don't simply accept the line that we should feel pride, or honour in the acts that resulted in their deaths that so many use in the conditioning of the masses.
It to me is just another way of spinning (or deceiving) the people.
We should feel sorrow and sympathy for those that found themselves in that position, and recognise that it's artificial man made differences like borders or vested interests that are inherently malevolent that are the breeding grounds that result in way.
The first step in doing so is to recognise our own actions that contribute to the end result, if we don't do that then the problem will remain perennial.
I could happily tell you more but it would be more convenient for you to go read about the school of cynasim and I accept the sentiment that this isn't the place for that analysis.
But I will say that it's ironic you mentioning the Spartans, as a form of indoctrination of its people it would be a particularly hard sell to make the people believe they were worth emulating.....instead they chose the Greeks with which to attempt to condition the collective psyche of today.
In reference to the point about sacrifice, I agree. Though I don't simply accept the line that we should feel pride, or honour in the acts that resulted in their deaths that so many use in the conditioning of the masses.
It to me is just another way of spinning (or deceiving) the people.
We should feel sorrow and sympathy for those that found themselves in that position, and recognise that it's artificial man made differences like borders or vested interests that are inherently malevolent that are the breeding grounds that result in way.
The first step in doing so is to recognise our own actions that contribute to the end result, if we don't do that then the problem will remain perennial.
Fair point - but to me that's all just fighting City Hall.
Indoctrination (as you call it) is the way of society. It's pretty stark to call it that, because it implies 1984-style mind control, instead of a generally accepted collective wisdom and set of values that society buys into.
Until we get to a kind of Pierre-Joseph Proudhon style anarchism, I think we are stuck with the kind of 'conditioning of the masses' / societal norms you've outlined.
I think we can agree the politics behind war is where the greatest issues lie. It's the poor bullet-stoppers that I'm remembering on Remembrance Day
Indoctrination (as you call it) is the way of society. It's pretty stark to call it that, because it implies 1984-style mind control, instead of a generally accepted collective wisdom and set of values that society buys into.
Until we get to a kind of Pierre-Joseph Proudhon style anarchism, I think we are stuck with the kind of 'conditioning of the masses' / societal norms you've outlined.
I think we can agree the politics behind war is where the greatest issues lie. It's the poor bullet-stoppers that I'm remembering on Remembrance Day
Indeed roger.
We shall leave the examination of the choice of vernacular till another day
We shall leave the examination of the choice of vernacular till another day
The poppy is politicised, like it or not, its funds can go to soldiers who took part in bloody sunday
should we remember the UK citizens shot by the army in the UK in the 70s?
Its a white wash to blindly except what bbc is churning out on remembrance sunday, i would ay most households are not as gung ho in their thoughts on remembrance sunday, but bbc opts to show the establishment line and paints it as a 'societal norm' to celebrate soldiers and war, they try to form opinion rather than reflecting it. Same with their coverage off the monarchy
should we remember the UK citizens shot by the army in the UK in the 70s?
Its a white wash to blindly except what bbc is churning out on remembrance sunday, i would ay most households are not as gung ho in their thoughts on remembrance sunday, but bbc opts to show the establishment line and paints it as a 'societal norm' to celebrate soldiers and war, they try to form opinion rather than reflecting it. Same with their coverage off the monarchy
Brendan
I can only tell you the way I feel about the poppy and remembrance day.
I don't watch the BBC coverage so couldn't really comment on it.
I can only tell you the way I feel about the poppy and remembrance day.
I don't watch the BBC coverage so couldn't really comment on it.
I rarely watch the BBC on such events,usually simpering and over the top. However,I do feel it is important to acknowledge the sacrifices many have given to preserve our freedom,including a grandfather blown up in WW1 and an uncle in the same war.Best to remember it quietly in a sober manner and rememebr the poppy symbolised the carnage in Flanders fields.If you choose to ignore it by all means but it says much about you too,can't have it both ways.
in some of the major battles ovrr half a million allies were killed
I recall reading more people were killed in the final year of ww1 than the whole of ww2
It's sometimes asked what would have happened if Hitler had won the Battle of Britain and then defeated us on land.
I wonder about WW1.. what may have happened if we'd lost that?
I wonder about WW1.. what may have happened if we'd lost that?
Amazon Prime have a series produced by Ridley Scott based on Phillip Dick's novel about a future where the nazis won ww2 and divided America between themselves and Japan.
I've seen the pilots to it and it's pretty good, it gets properly released soon.
(Hope this wasn't what mobo was referring to about 'if the nazis had won')
I've seen the pilots to it and it's pretty good, it gets properly released soon.
(Hope this wasn't what mobo was referring to about 'if the nazis had won')
I remember seeing a documentary about the Manhattan project, the A-bomb being the race between America and the nazis.
It is said that although the nazis had lost before it was completed and Japan wouldn't have lasted on their own, that the scientists actually said when asked about what they were going to do next, 'we are scientists not politicians'
(I.e. We drop the bomb irrespective)
Makes you think.
It is said that although the nazis had lost before it was completed and Japan wouldn't have lasted on their own, that the scientists actually said when asked about what they were going to do next, 'we are scientists not politicians'
(I.e. We drop the bomb irrespective)
Makes you think.
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