This Alexis Tsipras chap seems to be a better negotiator than Cameron.

what makes you think Herr Kameroooon is negotiating.  He is Herr Merkel's fk puppet.

What concessions?

Alexis is just trying to take the pi55 thinking that the Eurozone will die without Greece hoping that the threat of contagion will spook the creditors to keel over.

He is a populist completely out of his depth.

Personally think he's barking mad...sooner he's dumped the better

Human rights is what I thought the government wanted to do away with.

A 60% No victory for Tsipras....but we will wait to see if their banks don't run out of money by Tuesday.

I dont think for a minute he thinks the eurozone will die if Greece leave, he is just negotiating, what is the worse that can happen, Greece turns into starving african nation, who will help them, the eu.

shrewd imo

Yup, dead shrewd.

P*ss of those who are trying to stop you turning into a starving african nation because once your country has become one, the same people will then help you. Naturally, doesn't matter though that you will have turned a very bad situation in your country into a massive catastrophe.

Tsipras is a left-wing, con artist and I hope the EU say 'f*ck your vote, here is the same deal as last week, take it or leave it'

What the man seems to have overlooked is that the rest of the EU could easily survive without Greece and can afford to write off 186 billion euros, painful though it would be.

But Greece would be massively f*cked without the EU and if they completely default, sure as sh*t, nobody else on the planet will do business with them for many, many years for fear of being turned over. That is, of course, unless a new lender wants them to become their 'bitch'. How will the Greeks like that? They won't.

If they default people will lend to them. It's about risk versus reward and the early lenders will do okay.

Yes, this Alexis chap is as hard as nails.

He has really fcuked the whole thing up for his country at a cost of many billions - has made a bad situation worse. The people voted for him they can have him now. I feel sorry for the genuine people who were not fooled by his patter.

Reality bites.

I'm not sure attempting to bluff your opponents whilst having your cards faced towards them is the best policy.

Seems to me that he is fooked now; got a massive 'No' and then agreed to a far worse deal last weekend. The Germans have demanded that Greece cedes sovereignty over its national economy. Germany wants Greece to be subject to the supervision of foreign EU monitors, presumably German. Neo colonialism in the EU.

I love the idea that you can vote against austerity.  Great, what next a vote against cancer?

So.....after the E.U.'s performance, do you think Cameron is going to get any change from Merkel after pre-recommending a 'Yes' vote?

Slim and none, Slim moseyed out of town a long time ago.

Tbf, I don't think Merkel would be an obstacle to the kind of changes that DC wants.

WES, the problem as far as I understand is that he doesn't know what changes he wants and neither does the President (Juncker) who asked after DC had finished speaking "What does he want"
He has already said that he does not now want complete treaty change, but has climbed down to the position of changing treaties "in Due course"
DCs "changes" whatever they turn out to be will not be ratified by the 27 members before DC goes to the country.

Apologies, that my source is the Gruinard.

bookmakers point of consumption tax to be looked into....could break eu regulations...

Changes I'd imagine relate to freedom of movement and the right to benefits.

I'd imagine he'd get a lot of sympathy from Merkel on these issues.

To be honest Wes, I'm not up to speed with the recent and historical twists and turns. I tend to switch off when politicians speak. I just occasionally read up on it, so you, and I'm sure many other forumites are better placed than me to discuss this.  As far as I understand the freedom of movement is a core part of the treaty and Merkel  and co will not budge on it.

Like I have just said I will leave this to others better qualified/informed than me to comment.

Fair enough boxing.

They seemed to have a better deal when Yanis Varoufakis was the Greece finance minister.

What "deal" was that?

I thought there was a stalemate.

apparently  Varoufakis got a brilliant deal on Bazuka Extra Strength Gel.




OK, OK, I'll get me coat

^^^^^That really was cr@p

Greece are out....sooner or later...they are out...hopefully for them sooner.....and then the whole egotistical political construct masquerading as economic and social progressiveness will come tumbling down.....

...the amount is nowhere near enough and the conditions will NEVER be implemented......and even if they are it will result in even more contraction of the economy which means the whole self defeating cycle will come round again.

Greece may have inherent structural economic... political and social problems...as do all other countries...but they are THEIR problems.....

..and until they take full sovereignty back by regaining issuance of their currency they will never be masters of their own destiny...whether that destiny  is prosperity or stagnation or somewhere in between.

Agreed.

A vanity project that is being propped up by taxpayers in the wealthier Eurozone countries.

I'm surprised that it's only the Greeks out on the streets protesting.

..actually I should add a caveat...

Greece are out....sooner or later...they are out...

..unless they are given a huge debt write off in percentage terms...as the IMF....and most realistic economists..(I use realistic in its loosest sense) agree.....

But of course the chance of this debt write off happening is around 1%....

WHY...

..well because having socialised the original debt that was originally owed by Greece to PRIVATE institutions.... primarily banks and hedge funds and the like in France and Germany but other European countries as well.......effectively distributing the poor and profligate original lending decisions of said banks and hedge funds among the taxpayers of Europe....

..there is no way Merkel...Schauble..and Hollande will ever be able to sell a debt write off to their people....nope.

If Greece are going to have to go it alone as most people think likely then they might as well try and get as much on their tab as they can because its not going to be paid back.

Uk taxpayers money......1 billion ......to be used for bridging loan........that's not coming back......just as much of the 320 billion won't be coming back to eurozone taxpayers.....

.....if Merkel...Scauble....and Hollander want this to work they have add another 100 Billion.......at least.......to the 80 odd the Greek parliment is voting on today.

Like Hibbert playing for EFC....


It just aint gonna work...

.......this is very scary stuff.......

..bad loans at the 4 big Greek banks absolutely spiralling........small businesses and indivduals unable meet repayments.......estimated another 100 billion hole......

....i doubt Greek banks will EVER be able to open fully again without capital controls that are currently in place while they are in the euro.....

......if they do open without capital controls there will be a huge run on them......

Very very scary stuff.

Greece will quit the Euro at some point.  Just a matter of when exactly.

just print more money.

that'd please the germans