Has anything happened in your life that gave you a reason to believe in a...

Due to the cutbacks the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.

Mr aasbff- The Epicurean Paradox is the way to go-

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

Religion was invented by man because in the old days (and some would say today) life was so bad and there was so much injustice where the bad prosper and the good suffer, there had to be some hope provided of a better life after departing this mortal coil.

I hope this clarifies the matter.

Dr Aristotle Slicer
Professor of Religious Studies and Gambolology
North Southeast Mumbai University

Dr Slicer, a fond good morning. For clarification, was that your corporeal response or a higher "personalaty essence" response, conjunctive with and due to previous incarnations.

personalty * oops

Personality,** ffs,I need to lie down in a darkened room and contemplate (think with the teachings of the temple) my navel.

Exactly, Mr BTF. Greetings!
I am glad that I was able to clarify the matter!

ref mcmoon 21.12

The subconcious mind is what guides you.altho most probably are unaware or take no notice.Every action you take or make comes from there..

Have you ever met people who say I never win anything,well they got what they expected.

You become what you think. The power of positive thought is amazing,of course if you believe.  How about people who can heal themselves,when experts say not possible ?

Now is the time for you to delve deeper,you could surprise yourself,again if you are positive.

As for the God logo,well who knows.I tend to believe in myself.The God thingy may just be a comforter for those who are afraid.

bad wolf
03 Jan 15 15:58   ref mcmoon 21.12

The subconcious mind is what guides you.altho most probably are unaware or take no notice.Every action you take or make comes from there..

Have you ever met people who say I never win anything,well they got what they expected.

You become what you think. The power of positive thought is amazing,of course if you believe.  How about people who can heal themselves,when experts say not possible.

Correct, works out probabilities and actualizes them.

The OP needs to read the book 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins (IMHO).

Thanks for all your thoughts people. As of Monday, I will be going to the local library looking for the Richard Dawkins 'The God Delusion' book and Mere Christianity by CS Lewis.

What gets me is a lot of Atheist people say that religious people are ignorant yet look at themselves, they don't look at anyone else's view on the world either!

Any other books you lot can recommend?

bad wolf,

The actor Jim Carrey is a big believer in the power of positive thinking.

'he visualized a $10,000,000 check given to him for "Acting services rendered", placed the check in his pocket, and seven years later received a check for $10,000,000 for his role in Dumb and Dumber.' Quote from his wikipedia page.

Yes I recommend the bible, it's full of wacky stories that could only have happened thousands of year ago, if you're after something less far fetched then harry potter is quite popular

Another point I'd like to make in my short life on this planet so far is I get the impressions that most atheists are angry, cold and bitter people. There's not much love and open mindedness about them.

Do you believe in yourself scandinavian_haven?

Delilah never cut Samson's hair, and you can bet on it against a know- all. She got a servant to do it.

All nativity plays show three wise men. There is no mention of how many wise men there were in the wholly bibbly.

aasbff Joined: 11 Nov 09
Replies: 578

If you only buy one book it has to be this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2su2NtRij7E

"Religion can tolerate atheists, but they can't tolerate other religions".


W D Smart.

Religious people will never be free, they are trapped in their own minds and dragged from birth to death by ball and chain, the happiest people are the freest people, it's simple not logical or healthy to believe in something that can never proven. But if it brings you comfort then no harm done.

"Lubricating ingredients are widely dispersed and hold firmly to all moving parts".


W D Forty.

Pinot Noir, yes it's worth a read I prefer the original, Louise L Hay, "Heal your body," in 1976 known affectionately  by users  as the "little blue book." later expanded to a fuller publication "You can heal your life" and other great publications have followed since. I first came across it When recovering fro a 4 year bedridden illness ( lazy bustard I hear you cry ) in 1992 called,  Myalgic Encephalomyelitis.

I totally believe in a higher power. I know this because it keeps **** on me!

in 1992 called,  Myalgic Encephalomyelitis.




My sister has had that for over twenty five years. Horrendous. And she believes in God....

That would be s h I t t I n g! 

Yes stewarty, Got it in 1988,  it never goes away, but just has to be "managed" it recurs (as opposed toreoccurs) a min of 3 times ayear, but to a much reduced degree, I think I would have "checked out" if the original onslaught had continued.

Is you sister, managing a good quality of life?. The medical profession are worse than useless in dealing with this.

Hello boxingthefox. My sister manages to drive to the supermarket and the odd walk. Having said that, she has to lie down for a few hours every day. Her doctor reckons it was caused by too many antibiotics when some afterbirth was left in her after her first child.



Without doubt the medical profession is still scratching it's head.

A true story as to the power of your subconsious mind and positive thinking.

Youve heard that winners see themselves crossing the line 1st using powers of visualization.

A few years b ack I had a minor accident and gave myself a 'Mallet Finger'

https://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en-GB&q=pics+of+a+mallet+finger&gbv=2&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ei=zyyoVISdI9LVap62gLAJ&ved=0CBQQsAQ..

After seeing the consultant ie expert. He told me to come back in 1 month of the above treatment and see how it was going. On examination there was about a 50% improvement,and I said what do we do next ?.He smiled at me and said look at my right hand,finger next to small one,exactly the same as mine. Unfortunately sir that is a good as it wll ever be,there is nothing further we can do.
Over the next 3 or 4 mths,at bedtime I would see the damaged finger and imagine that the top which was damaged being slowly but surely being repaired and the finger returning to normal.

To this day is gives me pleasure to think that the non believer is still with his bent finger,and mine is  even straighter than before.

with ref to the above book. it does have a lot of religeous connotations.but I just highlighted  the bits that I thought had the most positive statements.

Just 1 or 2 can have an amazing effect.

I got a new GP last year, who was a "non believer" luckily the other GPs in the practice are but can still not offer a remedy. My sympathies mate, I know I am one of the relatively lucky ones. Though it cost me my marriage and changed my life beyond recognition, I know others such as your sister are still going through it big time. Giving her all you support is the best you can do. Good luck.

Pinot Noir, great stuff I had the top half of my thumb caught in a wall saw, the nail and nail bed cleaned out, the Plastic surgeon said I'm afraid you will have an ugly thumb for life, My thumb is perfect now using the Louise L hay method, same as you have described.

PS, this method does not work with amputation, nothing cures that.

Cheers BTF.

That was to your 18:10 post.

The papers recently had some story about some kid who had some horrible rare reaction to ibuprofen of all things. His skin was apparently falling off, he survived but will go blind. Life really is a lottery.

Darwin once said "I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidæ with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars". He was talking about those horrific wasps that inject eggs into caterpillars, that eat them alive from the inside out. I can see his point, that's not about free will. Then again maybe "He" just hates caterpillars

sb

There are plenty of books explaining how evolution has enabled, even encouraged, the brain to believe in 'a god'..
and that's why there will always be people of faith despite all the contrary evidence available : they WANT one.

Time and the Near-Death Experience


What is time? Is it the movement of the sun across the sky? Is it a ratio of numbers on a clock that represents change from one state to another?  Albert Einstein's Theory of Relativity proved that time is subjective to a person's own relative position. Einstein's theory even allows for time travel which is an aspect to many reported near-death experiences. The following is a brief introduction of all the insights concerning time from near-death experiencers profiled on this website. 


Table of Contents

1.  An Introduction To Time After Death
2.  Time As Experienced By Those Having a NDE
3.  NDE References To Time Travel
4.  More NDE References To Time

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1. An Introduction To Time After Death

After death when we enter the spirit realm, it feels as though we were there just a moment ago. Our time on Earth seems like only a brief instance. Time in the spirit realm does not exist. By getting rid of the illusion of time from our minds, we have the power to expand our consciousness. We will realize that we are already living in timelessness right now. This means a person can remain in heaven for eternity if they desire before deciding whether to return for another Earth life. In the spirit realm, if we desire, we can travel instantaneously from the beginning of Earth history to the end. We have the power to grow forever. We are powerful spiritual beings.

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2. Time As Experienced By Those Having a NDE

Multi-colored icon.   "When you die, the fixed measurement of Earth time becomes soft and flexible. It stretches and shrinks like a rubber band. Entering the spirit realm feels like you were there just a few moments ago. Your time on Earth seems like only a brief instance. You can examine the events of your past with great clarity and detail than you ever could in life. You can linger in your past for what seems like hours. When you are done, it seems like no time at all went by. Time can contract and centuries can condense into seconds. Millenniums can shrink into moments and the entire history of civilization can pass by in the blink of an eye. Time and space is no obstacle. You can go in and out of worlds and stay there for as long as you desire. You feel eternal once again. There is no way to tell whether minutes, hours or years go by. Existence is the only reality and it is inseparable from the eternal now." (John Star)



Multi-colored icon.   "The fact of a pre-Earth life crystallized in my mind, and I saw that death was actually a "rebirth" into a greater life ... that stretched forward and backward through time." (Betty Eadie)



Multi-colored icon.   "It does not matter that we leave family and friends behind because time becomes irrelevant. It is certain that once we enter the spirit realm, it will be just a blink of the eye before they join us." (Mac Wright)



Multi-colored icon.   "Before we're born, we have to take an oath that we will pretend time and space are real so we can come here and advance our spirit. If you don't promise, you can't be born." (Jeanie Dicus)



Multi-colored icon.   "Space and time are illusions that hold us to the physical realm; in the spirit realm, all is present simultaneously." (Beverly Brodsky)



Multi-colored icon.   "Time did not make any sense. Time did not seem to apply. It seemed irrelevant. It was unattached to anything, the way I was. Time is only relevant when it is relative to the normal orderly sequential aspects of life. So I was there for a moment or for eternity. I cannot say but it felt like a very long time to me." (Grace Bubulka)



Multi-colored icon.   "During a NDE, you can't tell if you were in that light for a minute of a day or a hundred years." (Jayne Smith)



Multi-colored icon.   "Earthly time has no meaning in the spirit realm. There is no concept of before or after. Everything - past, present, future - exists simultaneously." (Kimberly Clark Sharp)



Multi-colored icon.   "From the onset of this rather superconscious state of the darkness of the tunnel, there was something that was totally missing, and that was what we call time. There's no such thing as time in heaven! As I thought of and formulated a desire or a question, it would already have been recognized, acknowledged, and therefore answered. And the dialogue that took place, took place in no time. It didn't require a fifteen-minute duration in time; it simply happened." (Thomas Sawyer)

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3. NDE References To Time Travel

Albert Einstein's theory of relativity allows for the possibility of time travel. During a NDE, some people have reported traveling back in time and some have reported traveling into the future.

 
Multi-colored icon.    Don Brubaker's Time Travel Near-Death Experience:

Christ says to Don Brubaker, "Don, do you want to stay or go back?"
"I want to go back," I answered immediately, knowing I made the right choice.
Jesus smiles. "You have chosen well. Go. I am with you," Jesus says gently.
Everything changes again, as if someone has turned a page in a book. I see myself in the midst of a huge crowd. It's not a modern crowd. They are dressed in the clothes of Bible times. I look down at myself. So am I.
The crowd seems to be jeering at me. Why? Then I see more: I help a man, someone who has been brutally whipped and abused. The crowd is upset because I am offering assistance. But the beaten man has eyes that burn with love and compassion.
How could anyone want to hurt this man? I lift the man off of the dusty road to his feet.
The man turns, and from somewhere he lifts a huge wooden cross to his back. The man begins moving toward a hill. The hill is called Golgotha. With each new moment, I realize more and more clearly what I am seeing. These people are going to crucify Christ.
I follow, stunned, I watch in horror as Jesus is nailed to the cross, the spikes pounded through his wrists and the sensitive insteps of his feet. I watch helpless as the cross is propped up and dropped into position with an ugly thud. I cover my face with my hands.
If only others could see what I've seen. The world would get on its knees ... The world would be at peace. (Don Brubaker)


Multi-colored icon.   "Everything in this experience merged together, so it is difficult for me to put an exact sequence to events. Time as I had known it came to a halt; past, present, and future were somehow fused together for me in the timeless unity of life ... I could be anywhere instantly, really there ... I felt it necessary to learn about the Bible and philosophy. You want, you receive. Think and it comes to you. So I participated, I went back and lived in the minds of Jesus and his disciples. I heard their conversations, experienced eating, passing wine, smells, tastes - yet I had no body. I was pure consciousness. If I didn't understand what was happening, an explanation would come. But no teacher spoke. I explored the Roman Empire, Babylon, the times of Noah and Abraham. Any era you can name, I went there." (Dr. George Rodonaia)



Multi-colored icon.   The light replied, "Let us go back in time, as far back as possible, and tell me how far back we should go". I was thinking for some time. Eventually I blurted out, "Stone Age?" I did not have much time to think about all this, because, all of a sudden, I saw human beings back on Earth. I was looking down on a group of people, men and women, who were dressed in furs, sitting around campfire. (Guenter Wagner)



Multi-colored icon.   "The box opened to reveal what appeared to be a tiny television picture of a world event that was yet to happen. As I watched, I felt myself drawn right into the picture, where I was able to live the event. This happened twelve times, and twelve times I stood in the midst of many events that would shake the world in the future." (Dannion Brinkley)

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4. More NDE References To Time

Multi-colored icon.   Going through the tunnel during a NDE means traveling through the various afterlife realms. One of the realms that you can see on either side of the tunnel, is an outline of houses, walls, trees, etc., but everything is motionless. As you travel further up the tunnel, you can see more light and movement in what appear to be normal cities and towns. (Edgar Cayce)



(Webmaster's note:  Cayce didn't mention it, but the motionless realm he saw, I believe, is the physical realm. If it is, then it shows how time stands still in the physical realm when entering the spirit realm.)



Multi-colored icon.   "An expansion of consciousness can be achieved through meditation. With this expansion comes the realization that we are in eternity now." (Edgar Cayce)



Multi-colored icon.   "There is no time and space in the spiritual world. If one is in the highest realms, love reigns. And where there is love, there is happiness. Where there is happiness, there is no awareness of time. Therefore, there is no time as we know it there. In the lower realms, because people are very unhappy, time seems to drag forever. There is space, but it is a reflection of the qualities of the people who live there. Where love reigns, there is no distance between people." (Nora Spurgin)



Multi-colored icon.   "The occupants in outer darkness are there for various lengths of time. It is peculiar to discuss length of residence by a measure which does not exist in that dimension. For most of us it is very difficult to relate to a timeless condition, so the use of finite terms helps us to better understand. Some residents feel they have been in outer darkness for weeks or months, others for eons. No doubt all are correct in their assessment of length of time spent in this realm. In a reality of pain and torment, even a moment can seem like an eternity and there is no way to judge length of stay until after one has long departed. Some souls have occupied outer darkness for what we would measure as hundreds, even thousands of years. But it is more likely that most stay for a considerably shorter period. It is not possible for souls to be forever confined to outer darkness, since in such a case there would be no hope of redemption." (Harvey Green)



Multi-colored icon.   "In the void during a NDE, there is a profound stillness, beyond all silence. You can see or perceive FOREVER, beyond Infinity, in pre-creation, before the Big Bang, in the Eye of Creation. It is like toughing the Face of God and being at one with Absolute Life and Consciousness. You can experience all of creation generating itself. It is without beginning and without end. You realize the Big Bang is only one of an infinite number of Big Bangs creating Universes endlessly and simultaneously. The only images that even come close in human terms would be those created by supercomputers using fractal geometry equations. You learn that you are an immortal being and a part of a natural living system that recycles itself endlessly." (Mellen-Thomas Benedict)



Multi-colored icon.   "Time and space exists only in the physical realm. When you leave the physical realm, you leave such constraints. Existence there is never ending and ongoing, forever and ever eternal. The only true movement is without the distortion of time and space. It is expansion and contraction, as if the existence that exists were capable of breathing. What appears as a progression, a time-line of starts and stops and ever-changing variations, is but an overleaf, an illusion, that helps us to focus on whatever realm we currently inhabit so that we will accomplish what we set out to do (or at least have an opportunity to), and not be distracted by The Truth that under-girds reality. Using radio as an analogy, dying to this physical realm and entering a spirit realm is comparable to having lived all your life at a certain radio frequency when all of a sudden someone or something comes along and flips the dial.  That flip shifts you to different frequency. The original frequency where you once existed is still there. It did not change. Everything is still just the same as it was. Only you changed, only you speeded up to allow entry into the next radio frequency on the dial. You then fit into your particular spot on the dial by your speed of vibration. You cannot coexist forever where you do not belong. (P.M.H. Atwater)



Multi-colored icon.   "When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant." (Dr. Kenneth Ring)



Multi-colored icon.   "After death, you can literally travel at the speed of light and see all of the people on Earth simultaneously in one moment. You can see people in all manner of activity instantaneously. You can see people praying in mosques and temples, synagogues, and churches. You can see people individually expressing their own silent prayers. You can see indigenous tribes in all different parts of the world drumming and chanting. You can see God sending multitudes of angels to Earth to assist in answering all of the countless, millions of prayers being offered up at that single moment." (Dr. Liz Dale)



Multi-colored icon.   "When you die, everything stops and you enter eternity. It is like finally getting to the nanosecond, where time stops. Like a watch, our body stops at that time. Yet our spirit and consciousness continue to live on in a dimension beyond sequential time. We go beyond nanoseconds into a space-time measurement we cannot know here on Earth. It is the eternal now where past, present, and future are all merged into one. Eternity is the present, the now that never ends." (Dr. Gerard Landry)



Multi-colored icon.   "After death, you can go through the end of time all the way back through the beginning of time, then back into the present time where you started. It lasted forever, and was over in an instant. It is a paradox." (Dee Rohe)



Multi-colored icon.   "After death, you can view one afterlife realm as if it was first grade. People stay there until they were ready to go to the next afterlife realm. This is the eternal progression, from one realm to the next." (Cecil)



Multi-colored icon.   "The sense of timelessness after death makes you feel unaware of how long things last, but it can feel like a long time - maybe days or maybe weeks." (Rev. Howard Storm)



Multi-colored icon.   "Everything in the spirit realm is kept in place by an all pervading Master-Vibration which prevents aging. Things don't get dirty or wear out. Everything looks so bright and new. You can then understand how heaven is eternal." (Arthur Yensen)



Multi-colored icon.   "In the spirit realm, travel takes no time at all. Any experience can seem like eons. But that same experience also seems like seconds." (Dr. George Ritchie)



Multi-colored icon.   "In the spirit realm, It can take eons of time as we understand it before some people go into the light. It depends on the person. You're in control. You hold the reins. Those who've come through those darker levels have said that they've had to face themselves and realize that if they don't shape up, in other words, learn more about themselves, they're not getting anywhere." (George Anderson)



Multi-colored icon.   "Space and time are illusions that hold us to this physical realm. In the spirit realm, all is present simultaneously." (Beverly Brodsky)



Multi-colored icon.   "After death, each person shapes their own eternity to correspond with their real inner nature. Some are taught by their friends about the state of eternal life." (Emanuel Swedenborg)



Multi-colored icon.   "One experience in the spirit realm can feel like forever. Time no longer seems to apply and seems irrelevant. Time is only relevant when it is relative to the normal orderly sequential aspects of life. The experience can feel like a moment and an eternity. You realize that you are eternal and indestructible. You realize that you have always been, that you always will be, and there was no way you could ever be lost. It is impossible to fall into a crack in the universe somewhere and never be heard from again. You are utterly safe and always have been forever and ever." (Jayne Smith)



Multi-colored icon.   "Life is about having experiences forever and ever and ever. As we bring this awareness permanently into our consciousness, our connection with God will be there and not somewhere in our unconscious. We will be consciously aware of who we are all the time." (Jayne Smith)



Multi-colored icon.   "The experience lasted for hours or eons and now it seems that eons passed in only moments." (Virginia Rivers)



Multi-colored icon.   "We wandered in this beautiful place for what seemed an eternity." (Karen Schaeffer)



Multi-colored icon.   "The experience was a few seconds, but it seemed like an eternity." (Rev. Kenneth Hagin)



Multi-colored icon.   "In the spirit realm, time and space becomes nothing more than attenuated wisps of human invention. Both were webs of light created in my consciousness." (Lynnclaire Dennis)



Multi-colored icon.   "The human spirit is eternal and we are not alone in the cosmic scheme of things." (Brad Steiger)



Multi-colored icon.   "In the spirit realm, people don't talk about time. They talk about opportunity. People don't think about time because it is not measured off in days and nights and months and years." (Margaret Tweddell)


Multi-colored icon.   "Our souls are immortal and eternal." (Sandra Rogers)


Multi-colored icon.   "Many events of eternity can pass through you. You can bathe in them and become them. They can be infused into your soul." (RaNelle Wallace)


Multi-colored icon.   "We are intricately connected to all that exists throughout eternity." (Jan Price)


Multi-colored icon.   "On the other side, one event follows another just like on Earth. But looking at it another way, time on the other side doesn't pass at all because there is not enough change to make the passage of time evident. From another viewpoint, time in the afterlife stands still because it is always now. The past and future are of equal length because there never was a beginning and never can be an end. This flexibility of time on the other side can be compared to the Earth experience when a person is enjoying themselves and time just seems to fly by. But another person having the same experience but who is absolutely miserable, time can seem to last forever. As Einstein discovered, time is a factor that is relative to a person's own experience." (Kevin Williams)


Multi-colored icon.   "I glanced at my wrist to note the time, since there was no sun in the sky. My wrist had no watch on it, nor was there any telltale evidence of a watchband ... A strange sense of timelessness gripped me. It was simply awesome! ... We exist here in that timelessness, the eternity of God, the kind of life that does not perish! It is our gift of love, eternal life!" (Dr. Richard Eby)


Multi-colored icon.   "There is an overall awareness of the Earth's future as it will be in six weeks, six months, or perhaps two years ahead. It is like being in an airplane looking down, and you can get a prevision of what is going to happen, due to being able to see things in broader perspective. However, there is not a complete vision of the entire future of Earth. But there are souls in the spirit realm who, through much tribulation and service, have been permitted to see the Earth's future in a more extended way." (Margaret Tweddell)



Multi-colored icon.   "Time is not linear. Energy moves in a continuum and if we would consider the past as a time passed we would release pain from the body. We get stuck because we stay in the past, instead of realizing that we have passed!" (Lynnclaire Dennis)


"Time and space are modes by which we think and not conditions in which we live." - Albert Einstein

5. A Description of the Journey to Heaven

Multi-colored icon.   Near-death accounts can provide a general overview of the cosmology of the afterlife. The following is the journey to heaven as I see it from the near-death experiences I have read:


a. A person  leaves their body and enters the  earthbound realm where they observe what's going on around their dead body.
b. They may then be sucked into a  tunnel toward the  light; or find themselves in the  dark void temporarily until the tunnel appears.
c.
Once a person is in the incredible light of God, they are overwhelmed by the  love, beauty,  happiness, and the wonder of it all.

d. Memories of  forgotten knowledge returns; supernatural powers are again realized such as 360 degree vision, bi-location, instantaneous travel,  mental telepathy,  timelessness,  heavenly music, creating realities with your mind, remembering  past lives, omnipresence, time travel, seeing  the future, meeting future children, seeing  orbs - angels -  guides - Elders.
e. At some point, the new arrival is shown their  life in review for the purpose of instruction and for an evaluation to see they have earned the right to enter a  higher heavenly realm.
f.  The person is reunited with family and friends in a  homecoming.
g. Heavenly structures may be seen such as: a  city(s) of light,  libraries of knowledge, crystal cathedrals of light, a  receiving station where destinies become known, a hospital where damaged souls are healed, a dome structure, or an amphitheater.
h. Heavenly vistas may be experienced such as exquisite valleys, gardens, lakes, rivers, mountains, waterfalls, and dwellings.
i. A barrier might be reached where it is impossible to return to Earth and a choice may have to be made whether to remain or return to Earth. If the choice is to remain, the new arrival will be able to choose their habitation. It may be at a higher realm that they have earned, or they can operate at the same level or a lower level where loved ones may need help.
j. Eternities may go by before the desire for further soul growth is realized and it is decided to reenter a  World-School. In heaven, an Earth life seems to last for only a brief moment. After the moment in the World-School is over, they will go through the process again to see if they have earned the right for a higher level of heavenly life.
k. There are many World-Schools in the world of universes. We are working our way up toward a permanent residence at the highest level of life - complete at-one-ment and merger with divinity. This requires sojourning through the vast system of World-Schools and dimensions with the goal of reaching the top. This is the goal for everyone and eventually everyone will achieve it. (Kevin Williams)

Multi-colored icon.   "Children who have NDEs sometimes report having to visit an animal heaven before they can go to the adult heaven. (P.M.H. Atwater)

Multi-colored icon.   "From the light we have come and to the light we all shall return." (Josiane Antonette)

Multi-colored icon.   "Paths are visible in the spirit realm. Some lead to heaven and some to hell. Good people travel only along paths that lead to heaven according to their own desire. They do not see paths leading in other directions. Evil people follow only paths that lead to hell according to their own desire. They do not see paths leading in other directions; and even if they do, they do not want to follow them." (Emanuel Swedenborg)

Multi-colored icon.   "In heaven you feel much more alive than you will ever feel here. Our lives on Earth are for just a short time, like a vacation. You visit, try to find your way around, and just when you think you've got it down, it's time to go home. When you go home to heaven, you know exactly where you are, what you're doing. It's just a wonderful place. There's no hatred, just love, kindness, and mercy. It's one huge family there." (Roy Mills)

Multi-colored icon.   "Some experiencers meet people in heaven who are yet to be born or preparing to be born into the world." (Kevin Williams)

Multi-colored icon.   "To appreciate heaven well it is good for a man to have some fifteen minutes of hell." (Will Carleton)

Multi-colored icon.   "From an endless dream we have come. In an endless dream we are living. To an endless dream we shall return." (Michio Kushi)

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6. The Experience of Entering Heaven

Multi-colored icon.   "As the two beings approached us, I could also feel the love flowing from them toward us. The complete joy they showed at seeing the Christ was unmistakable. Seeing these beings and feeling the joy, peace and happiness which swelled up from them made me feel that here was the place of all places, the top realm of all realms. The beings who inhabited it were full of love. This, I was and am convinced, is heaven." (Dr. George Ritchie)

Multi-colored icon.   Herr Pettersson was also permitted to visit the spirit world and discovered, much to his surprise, that even the worst in heaven exceeded the best on Earth. To Herr Pettersson the world of spirits resembled the material world. There were many countries, or "Kingdoms." There were cities and villages, temples and palaces, flowers and animals of great beauty and variety. The people were very busy. Some were preaching on street corners and in assembly halls, and all had great congregations.


"Who are they?" Herr Pettersson asked (referring to the preachers)?


"They," his guide answered, "belong to the church of the First born, and they have been sent here to be ministering spirits to those who shall yet becoming heirs of salvation."


"I am afraid," stammered Herr Pettersson, "that I do not comprehend you. Are we not in heaven? How can the world of salvation be preached here?"



"No brother!" the guide replied, "We are not in what mortals call heaven! This is Hades." (Lundahl and Widdison)


Multi-colored icon.   "Turning back to the interior of the temple, I saw that creative activities were taking place in different areas. There were a number of individuals sitting at easels painting, and I saw one man playing a flutelike instrument that emitted the sweetest of sounds. Farther on, dancers moved with ethereal grace, performing with a lightness impossible to the physical human form. As I watched in utter delight, I became aware that the musical background for this visual feast came from what I would call a celestial choir - an orchestra of voices creating heavenly music for the dance. This Music of the Spheres was indeed singing the praises of the Creator." (Jan Price)

Multi-colored icon.   "Instead of allowing me to enter, the angel stationed me before the gates, slightly to one side. He instructed me to stay there and watch as the saints were permitted to enter into heaven. As the saints were allowed into heaven, I noticed a strange thing. They were permitted to enter only one at a time. No two were permitted to enter those gates at the same time. I wondered about this but it was never explained to me." (Rev. Howard Pittman)

Multi-colored icon.   "The experience of merging with the light of God is like having your body explode in a pleasant way and becoming a million different atoms. Each atom can think its own thoughts and have its own feelings. You feel all at once what it feels like to be everything and everybody." (Nora Spurgin)

Multi-colored icon.   "Jesus said that I would never quite be the same as I was before I visited heaven. He said that some of the power of the light would remain within me. And he told me to let the love that I would feel in my heart express itself to all people. He said that I should never worry if people doubted my story or could not understand what I was telling them. 'One day,' Jesus said, 'everyone will come to see for themselves what you have seen.'" (Randy Gehling)

Multi-colored icon.   "A little girl who died in a swimming pool said to Dr. Melvin Morse, 'Don't worry, Dr. Morse, heaven is fun!'" (Dr. Melvin Morse)

Multi-colored icon.   "It seemed like the dawn of a new day; day was just breaking! It was a beautiful experience. I heard little birds singing, tiny birds, and they got louder and louder. People have said there are no birds in heaven, but I heard them." (Lorraine Tutmarc)

Multi-colored icon.   "Then, as if I had eyes all around my head, I saw saints, souls that were in heaven - multitudes. There was no way to count them. Whether there were millions or billions, I have no idea. As far as I could see in every direction were people of all sizes dressed in white robes. The people were transparent; I could see through them. They were behind me, across from me, all around me. They were floating on what appeared to be a crystal mirror or cloud or smoke. It is hard to describe these things in earthly terms, but I am trying to show you what my spirit saw. Each person was holding a crown in his or her hand. The saints were saying, 'We were waiting for you.'" (Dr. Gerard Landry)

Multi-colored icon.   "The angels told me that all who enter the third heaven must remain there until brought back to this physical world by Christ himself." (Rev. Howard Pittman)

Multi-colored icon.   Apostle Paul's view of heaven:


"I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know - God knows. And I know that this person - whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows - was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that humans are not permitted to tell." (2 Corinthians 12:1-4)


Multi-colored icon.    Stephen's view of heaven:


"But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 'Look,' he said, 'I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.'" (Acts 7:54-56).


Multi-colored icon.    Jacob's view of heaven:

"He [Jacob] had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the Earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. There above it stood the Lord, and he said: 'I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham' ... When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, 'Surely the Lord is in this place, and I was not aware of it.' He was afraid and said, 'How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven.'" (Genesis 28:10-12)


Multi-colored icon.    Apostle John's view of heaven:

"After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian. A rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne. Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal." (Revelation 4:1-6)

     
7. The Experience of Heaven

Multi-colored icon.   "Because in heaven only the best in each person survives and good is all anyone wants to do there, this allows a freedom and happiness that people on Earth can not imagine. On Earth we need thousands of laws to keep order, but in heaven restrictions are not needed." (Arthur Yensen)

Multi-colored icon.   "Negative thoughts cannot be expressed in the heavenly realms - only positive ones." (Ned Dougherty)

Multi-colored icon.   "Humans are educated at a higher level by spirit beings who bring us into heaven. We grow and increase, and grow and increase, and shed the concerns, desires, and base animal stuff that we have been fighting much of our life. Earthly appetites melt away. It is no longer a struggle to fight them. We become who we truly are, which is part of the divine." (Rev. Howard Storm)

Multi-colored icon.   "In heaven, we can remember our real identity and know what possibilities exist for soul growth. We do not move forward until we choose to do so." (P.M.H. Atwater)

Multi-colored icon.   "Heaven is a joyous condition and a state of expanded awareness, of perceiving more and more of the grand plan of creation." (Emanuel Swedenborg)

Multi-colored icon.   "Knowledge beyond our deepest dreams exists in heaven and in the hearts of those who dwell there." (Betty Eadie)

Multi-colored icon.   "What people call heaven is really our true home and destination. It is where we go for recess or to be rewarded by assessing our progress as a soul, evaluating our lives, and to remember all truths, including our real identity. We stay there for however long best serves our development." (Nora Spurgin)

Multi-colored icon.   "Everyone in the realms of light knows that there is a Creator. It is said that this presence is so obvious it cannot be denied." (Nora Spurgin)

Multi-colored icon.   "Once in heaven, a person may feel as if they had been there before. They may remember that heaven is their real home. They may remember that on Earth, people are visitors and homesick strangers." (Arthur Yensen)

Multi-colored icon.   "We tend to feel that when we die, heaven is as we thought it-and it certainly is. We can be received exactly the same way we always thought we would be received. People can remain in narrowness if they want -they don't need to change unless they wish. There is perfect freedom of spirit in heaven." (Margaret Tweddell)

Multi-colored icon.   "Some people have high hopes that everything is going to be different for them in heaven. However, nothing can be different for them because they have brought with them what they are. There is so much harmony in heaven that if anyone brings a disharmonious personality with them, they will find it very difficult to link in with the harmonious existence that exists." (Margaret Tweddell)

Multi-colored icon.   "In heaven there is no way to get ahead of others. This is because there is no place in heaven for discontent or personal ambition." (Arthur Yensen)

Multi-colored icon.   "Heaven is a world much like our own except there is no time nor space as we think of them here. Heaven exists in a higher dimension of energy. The higher realms are a world of inexpressible beauty. They are realms where it is possible to be fully alive, where, for example, the whole body perceives. They are realms of endless possibilities for creativity and full realization of self; and they are where the love of God is like the air we breathe. As air is the atmosphere on Earth, God's love is the atmosphere in the spirit world." (Nora Spurgin)

Multi-colored icon.   "Heaven is very hard to describe because words are inadequate to describe it. Heaven is a place of imagination. Heaven is exactly what our imagination needs it to be. It is a lively hilarious place that's unbelievably sweet, serene and melodious. It is characterized by its vivid greenness, its crystalline cleanliness, its newness, its all-pervading music and its overall beauty - all of which are maintained by God. It's a vigorous, lively place with an outflowing happiness that's uncontainable. It's not a place of rest because no one there gets tired. It's more like a new lease on life. Everything in heaven is pure. The elements don't mix or break down as they do on Earth. Everything is kept in place by God's all pervading Master-Vibration which prevents aging. That's why things don't get dirty, or wear out, and why everything looks so bright and new." (Arthur Yensen)

Multi-colored icon.   "Heaven and hell are spiritual states of being. They are not static states but are states in which there can be growth and progress toward ultimate wholeness of being." (Margaret Tweddell)

Multi-colored icon.   "Think of stepping on the shore and finding it heaven, of touching a hand and finding it God's, of breathing new air and finding it celestial, of waking up in glory and finding it home." (Don Wyrtzen)

Multi-colored icon.   "To me, the valley appeared to be Heaven, but at the same time I knew that James and Rashad were seeing it differently. James saw it as the Gulf of Souls. Rashad saw it as Nirvana, and somehow we knew all this without speaking." (May Eulitt)
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8. The Hierarchy of the Heavenly Realms


Multi-colored icon.   "All of heaven is divided into communities based on the different levels of goodness that comes from the desires of those in them. Everyone who enters into heaven is taken to the community where their desires are expressed and where they belong. They enter the community as though they were at home and where they were born. People sense which community they belong to and then develop close relationship with others like themselves." (Emanuel Swedenborg)

Multi-colored icon.   "If one is in the highest realms, love reigns. And where there is love, there is happiness. Where there is happiness, there is no awareness of time. Therefore, there is no time as we know it here. However, in the lower realms, because one is very unhappy, time seem interminable. There is space, but the whole spirit world is a reflection of the qualities of the people who live there. Where love reigns, there is no distance between people. The spirit world is thus not like our three-dimensional world, but is more like a symbolic reflection of the inner quality of the people." (Nora Spurgin)

Multi-colored icon.   "As there are degrees of heaven and hell on Earth, so there are degrees of heaven and hell in the spiritual world." (Margaret Tweddell)

Multi-colored icon.    An experience from a subject of Dr. Lundahl and Dr. Widdison's research:  "There were spheres above, whose occupants could and did visit us, and we could always recognize these higher natures by the virtues which possessed them, and were apparent to us as they passed beside us. But we could not visit their spheres until we had perfectly qualified for it. And there were of course spheres below us, where those who had not repented of their evil ways still had to work out their redemption. Those in the lower spheres could not have been happy in this higher kingdom until they qualified themselves by a change of heart and mind. This individual went on to observe that although individuals in each sphere are aware of the others' existence, they cannot see, let alone visit, without significant preparation. Those living on the higher realms of the city radiate the brightest light, being so resplendent that their glory must be cloaked so others of lower degree can look upon them (Note: This phenomenon can be found in Howard Storm's NDE). Visiting the higher levels is possible, but the spirits of lower realms must be prepared or covered so they can stand in the presence of greater glory. In addition to the placement of individuals at judgment, the next world is efficiently organized to help individuals adapt to their new home. Infants are taken to a place where they are nurtured and taught and where they mature. Some new arrivals are taken to a place of orientation where they rest, adjust to their new condition, and prepare to take their place in the City of Light. (Lundahl and Widdison)

Multi-colored icon.    A person's dreams, visions, and meditations are reflections of the soul's experience in the spirit world. The conscious mind is the product of the evolution of the stars and planets. The soul mind (subconsciousness) is conditioned by its previous incarnations within the physical world and the spirit world. The conscious mind becomes dimmed or brightened by its recent experiences in these worlds. (Edgar Cayce)

Multi-colored icon.   "But no matter what level or city a person qualifies for, each city is so superior to any on Earth that it is indescribable, and each succeeding realm is indescribably better than that immediately below it." (Lundahl and Widdison)

Multi-colored icon.   "All of the various heavenly realms of consciousness have different frequencies of vibration. Matter on Earth is composed of atoms and these atoms are composed of energy which vibrates. Earth matter is denser than the matter of the higher realms. We can see Earth matter because of light waves which vibrate at a visual observing rate. But the same reason that we cannot see radio or television waves, which vibrate at too fast a rate to be seen, is the same reason we cannot see the matter of higher realms, unless you happen to be clairvoyant." (Margaret Tweddell)


Multi-colored icon.   "There is strong scientific and religious evidence that there are  10 dimensions (heavens) to the afterlife." (Kevin Williams)

Multi-colored icon.    One near-death experiencer saw everybody in the spirit realm organized into several different grades. Another individual discovered that:




"The reports of many individuals who have been permitted to see or visit the next world tell us that it is located right here on our physical Earth. If our spirit eyes were to open, we would discover we are surrounded by those who have preceded us in death. But not everyone goes to the same location in the next world. We will be acutely aware of everything we have done or failed to do in our lives. We will also know the lives of those around us and they will know ours. Therefore we will seek out those who think the same way we do, who value the same things we do. We will gravitate toward those we feel at ease with, who are like us. Judgment is more a process of self-evaluation than the product of a heavenly tribunal. The next world is segmented into spheres organized around qualities of love, service, and personal preparedness." (Lundahl and Widdison)


Multi-colored icon.   "There are many realms that take up the same space as the physical realm much like boxes within boxes. The physical realm is but one of the boxes in the hierarchy of boxes. This means we are actually already in the so-called afterlife right now because the physical realm is a part of the afterlife. Each realm corresponds to a particular level of spiritual development and proximity to God - the ultimate level of spirituality. For example, when we are deeply in love and very happy, we are in heaven. When we are without love and miserable, we are in hell. This becomes fully apparent after death when there is no physical body to restrict it." (Kevin Williams)

Multi-colored icon.   "On Earth we are all aware of the various kinds of lifestyles of various individuals. Some seem to have a very desirable lifestyle, others less so. The same may be said about life in the spirit world. In terms of externals, some persons there live in more attractive and comfortable environments, others in less appealing conditions. At the extremes there are beautiful and uplifting settings which are truly heavenly and, on the other hand, there are very unattractive, even repugnant, environments which are without a doubt hellish. One's outward environment in the spirit world depends upon one's internal nature. If, during our lifetime on Earth, we matured in a spiritually rich and beautiful way, we will come to dwell in an environment that corresponds with these qualities. Indeed, such environments are said by those who have experienced them to possess a beauty that is beyond anything seen on Earth." (Nora Spurgin)

Multi-colored icon.   "Heaven is a matter of vibration. The finer the vibration we have, the nearer we are to heaven. Heaven is a state of being joyous, light, loving, harmonious, vibrant, God-centered and others-centered. The heavier the vibration, the nearer we are to hell. Hell is a state of being heavy, dull, dismal, gray, and glum-as when you are heavily depressed and self-centered." (Margaret Tweddell)

Multi-colored icon.   "We are likely to seek out our relatives, loved ones and ancestors with whom we have a bond. However, if there is a vast difference in spiritual development, a person of lesser development will be unable to enter the higher realm to which those of greater development have advanced. In this case, the more highly developed loved one may choose to visit the realm of lower spiritual development to help the person in need of spiritual development." (Nora Spurgin)

Multi-colored icon.   "If you loved someone who is on a lower vibration than you are, you are allowed to visit anytime you choose by simply lowering your rate of vibration. This may help the entity greatly by encouraging self-love and growth. However, the entity will need to incarnate again on the Earth plane to test out these new lessons, because it is the Earth experience that determines your stage of evolution." (Betty Bethards)

How does religion see dinosaurs?
If god created us then he must of created them.
But that's not mentioned in the seven days of creation
Infact according to that the world did not exist.

Any ideas?

A penny is never lost, until it is found.

What you have to realise is that all the above "Interpretations" are viewed in the context of the individual speakers experience, and have to be explained in human terms according to their experience and beliefs.

It's not that the above information is not correct but the interpretations relating to Heaven/God etc are a human response to a fleeting insight of their greater conscious existence containing a myriad of mind blowing perceptions that can only be explained to others using Linear communication, with the physical brain and ego, whose job it is to protect you from the insanity that could/would ensue as a result of a  "bleed through" into physical experience of the greater consciousness.

If you ever had to describe (in a workshop) an idea/concept to a room full of people without a visual aid you would quickly realise how misinterpretation can happen when your interpetation of the object or concept is completely different to the listeners experience/beliefs.

So wooly descriptions such as Heaven/paradise are meaningless descriptions for a non physical existence, and related only to human conventions religions in the form of dogma to control group/masses of people

For example compare the Christian fundamentalist idea of heaven with the Muslim fundamentalist idea and you will immediately see conflict and contradictions. while both believe in the wooly description/concept of Heaven/paradise.





^^^^^Near death experience

Put heaven into your Sat Nav, where will it take you??.......it will take you to Heaven a beauty salon located in Hereford, which is correct but not the place you thought it was. The Sat Nav knows you know. http://www.bizwiki.co.uk/beauty-parlour/105666/heaven.htm

Edgar Cayce,  www.edgarcayce.org, revealed volumes of  psychic material, much of which was verified to be true to the amazement of doctors and scientists. Cayce discovered at a young age he could go into a  self-induced trance and travel to other dimensions -  afterlife realms - to obtain psychic information on any subject. Cayce claimed anyone could do what he did with the proper training and attunement. The hypnotic trance Cayce induced produced an  out-of-body experience and spirit journey indistinguishable from a near-death experience. During these near-death experiences, Cayce was able to tap into a virtually unlimited amount of information which he referred to as the "Universal Mind". He was able to reveal previously unknown information on a wide range of subjects such as: astrology, the afterlife, religion, the future, consciousness, and human origins, just to name a few. The following information on human origins was revealed to Cayce during his excursions while out of the body and as told in Thomas Sugrue's book,  There is a River. Because of the archaic language used in Cayce's description, I have paraphrased it slightly, without losing any of original meaning, to make it easier to read. This may be the most important document you will ever read because it answers the "what, where, how, when and why" of human origins.


Table of Contents 

1.  In The Beginning, God...
2.  The Evolutionary Plan for Souls
3.  The Nature of the Spirit, Soul and Ego
4.  The Divine Nature of Free Will
5.  The Entanglement of Souls with Flesh
6.  The Invisible Planetary-Afterlife Dimensions Within Our Solar System
7.  God's Three-Dimensional School of Hard Knocks on the Third Rock from the Sun
8.  The Sons of God Unite with the Daughters of Men
9.  The Evolution of the Soul Through Reincarnation
10  The Evolution of the Christ Soul from Adam to Jesus to Christhood
11. The Law of Karma as a Lesson for Soul Evolution
12.  The Personality as a Facet of the Soul's Individuality
13.  The Soul's Liberation from Reincarnation Through Human-Divine Unity
14.  Quotes from Edgar Cayce about the Cosmos and Souls

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1. In The Beginning, God...
 

People usually demand a beginning, so in the beginning there was a sea of  spirit and it filled all of space. The spirit was static, content, and aware of itself. It was a giant resting on the bosom of its thought and contemplating what it is.

Then the spirit moved into action. It withdrew into itself until all of space was empty. In the center, the restless  mind of the spirit shone. This was the beginning of the  individuality of the spirit. This was what the spirit discovered itself to be when it awakened. This spirit was God.

God desired self-expression and desired companionship; therefore, God projected the  cosmos and  souls. The cosmos was built with music, arithmetic, geometry, harmony, system, and  balance. The building blocks were all of the same material - the life essence - God simply changed the  wavelength and rate of  vibration of these building blocks thereby creating the patterns for multitudes of life forms. This action resulted in the  law of diversity which supplied endless patterns. God played on this law of diversity as a pianist plays on a piano - producing melodies and arranging them in a symphony.

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2. The Evolutionary Plan for Souls
 

Each design carried within it the plan for its  evolution - both physical and  spiritual. This plan corresponds to the sound of a note struck on a piano. The sounds of several notes unite to make a chord; chords in turn become phrases; phrases become melodies; melodies intermingle and move back and forth, across and between and around each other, to make a symphony. Then in the end, the music will stop and the physical universe will be no more; but between the beginning and the finish of the music, there was glorious beauty and a glorious experience. The spiritual universe will continue on.

Everything assumed its design in various forms and their activity resulted in the  laws of attraction and  repulsion. All forms would attract and repel each other in their evolutionary dance.


All things are a part of God and an expression of God's thought. The  Mind of God was the force which propelled and perpetuated these thoughts. All minds, as thoughts of God, do everything God imagined. Everything which came into being is an aspect of this One Mind.

All things, including the souls of individuals, were created as "fractals" of God for companionship with God - the "Whole." A fractal  This revelation from Cayce revealed the astonishing fact of how  self-similar the universe is on every scale: from the  atom to  biological organisms, from  human beings to the planet  Earth, from  solar systems to  galaxies, from the  universe(s) to  God.



The pattern God used to create souls was the pattern of God's own Spirit. The spirit is life. From the spirit, the mind builds patterns. From the mind, the physical creation is the result. This is how the spirit, the mind, and individuality, became the pattern for souls. This is how cause, action, and effect became the pattern for everything. First there was the spirit (the  first cause); then there was the action which withdrew spirit into itself; then there was the resulting individuality of God.

The spirit of the individual existed before the soul of the individual was created. The spirit keeps the knowledge of its identity with God. The soul has the ability to experience the activities of the mind in a manner separate from God.

Thus, new individuals issued from God and remained dependent upon God; but individuals were also aware of an existence apart from God. Individuals were given the  power to choose (free will) and direct their own activity. Without free will, it would only remain a part of the individuality of God. The mind, issuing as a force from God, would naturally fulfill God's thoughts unless directed otherwise. The power to do this - to direct the force of mind individually from God - is free will. And the  record or memory of this freedom is the soul. The soul began with its first expression of free will  through the force of mind. The first thought the spirit generated from free will - the first diversion of the force of mind from its normal path of unity with God - was the beginning of the soul.

The nucleus of the soul was the  balance of positive and negative forces equal in power. These forces produce harmonious activities: the positive force initiates, impregnates, and thrusts forward; while its polar negative force receives, nourishes, and ejects. The steps of this evolutionary process are also the stages of the thought process:  perception,  reflection, and  opinion.

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3. The Nature of the Spirit, Soul and Ego
 

Thus, the soul consists of two states of consciousness: (1) the spirit which bears a knowledge of its identity with God, and (2) the soul which bears a knowledge of everything it experienced.

The plan for the soul is a cycle of experience unlimited in scope and duration. Through this evolutionary cycle, the soul will come to know the creation in all its aspects at the discretion of the will. The cycle would be completed when the desire of the will was no longer different from the thought of God. The consciousness of the soul would then merge with its spiritual consciousness of its identity with God. Then the soul will return to its source as the companion it was intended to be.

As a companion, the soul would remain conscious of its separate individuality and would be aware of its own free will as it now acted as a part of God, but not diverting its mind because it was in agreement with God's influence on the mind of the soul. Until this state of at-one-ment was reached, the soul would not be a companion in the true sense of the word.

The idea of returning to God means a loss of individuality is paradoxical, since God is aware of everything happening and must therefore be aware of the consciousness of each individual. The return of the soul is the return of the image to whom imagined it. The consciousness of the individual - its soul record - could not be destroyed without destroying a part of God. When a soul returns to God it becomes aware of itself not only as a part of God, but as a part of every other soul, and everything.

What is lost is the ego - the desire to do other than the desire of God. When the soul returns to God, the ego is voluntarily relinquished. This is  the symbology behind the crucifixion of Christ.

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4. The Divine Nature of Free Will
 

The plan for the soul included experiencing of all creation, but it did not necessarily mean participating in all forms and substance. Nor did it mean souls can interfere with the creation. Nor did it mean souls are to spin their own little worlds, twisting and bending laws to make images of their dreams.

But these things could happen. The soul was the greatest thing God made because it has free will. Once free will was given, God did nothing to curb it. However it acted, it had to act within God's reality. By whatever route, the soul will return to God.

The apparent fact of the human body being a speck of dust on a small planet in a regular galaxy in a universe of galaxies can lead to the illusion of  humans being a small creation. But the soul is the unlimited activity of the mind and the grandeur of imagination.

At first there was little difference between the consciousness of the new individual (i.e., soul) and its consciousness of identity with God (i.e., spirit). Souls merely watched the flow of the Mind, somewhat as people daydreaming, marveling at its power and versatility. Then souls began to act itself, imitating and paralleling what Mind was doing. Gradually souls acquired experience, becoming a complementary rather than an imitative force. It helped to extend, modify, and regulate creation.

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5. The Entanglement of Souls with Flesh   
   

Certain souls became aggressive with their own power and began to experiment with it. They mingled with the dust of the stars and the winds of the spheres - feeling them - and becoming part of them. One result of this was an unbalance between the positive and negative forces. To feel things demanded the negative force. To express through things (and directing and managing them) required the positive force. Another result of souls becoming aggressive with their own power was the gradual weakening of the link between the two states of consciousness (i.e., spirit and the soul). Some souls became more concerned with and aware of their own creations rather than God's. This resulted in the fall of certain souls to an even lower consciousness. The Bible allegorically refers to this event as the  Fall in the Garden of Eden and   the revolt of the angels in the  Book of Revelation. This event is also the basis for the cosmology of  Christian Gnosticism and  Jewish mysticism.

To enter into another level of creation and become part of it, the soul had to assume a new, or third consciousness - a physical form. Assuming a physical form is a way of experiencing that particular level of creation by means of a conscious mind (i.e., the third consciousness). Through the conscious mind, an individual can experience physical consciousness: the physical body, the five senses, the glandular and nervous systems. This transformation of consciousness does not apply everywhere at this level of creation. In other worlds and solar systems, the transformation may differ. One can only imagine the number of these other worlds and the aspects of divine mind which they represent.

When a soul enters into another level of creation and its consciousness, it separated itself temporarily from the consciousness of its own soul, and became even further removed from the consciousness of its spirit. Thus, instead of helping to direct the flow of creation and contributing to it, the soul found itself in the stream and drifting along with it. The farther the soul traveled from the shore, the more it succumbed to the pull of the current and the more difficult was the task of getting back to land.

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6. The Invisible Planetary Afterlife Dimensions of Our Solar System
 

Planets and solar systems became a temptation to souls. Each solar system had its own course and its own plan. Souls moved toward them through the activity of a constant stream of mind. When a soul leaped into the stream (by immersing itself in the system through which the stream was flowing) it had the force of the current to contend with, and its free will was hampered. It was very easy, under these circumstances, to drift with the current.

Each solar system also represents an opportunity for development, advancement, and growth toward the ideal of complete companionship with God - the position of co-creator in the vast system of universal mind.

Our solar system also attracted souls. Since each solar system is a single expression of the divine, with its planets as integral parts, the Earth came into the path of souls.

Each solar system in the universe is like an atom in a universe of worlds. Atoms have quantum levels for electrons to travel around. The sun has "quantum levels" for planets to travel around. The planets of our solar system are physical representations of heavenly dimensions. These levels as a whole are the consciousness of our solar system. There are nine planetary-afterlife dimensions to the consciousness of our solar system. The planet Earth represents the third dimension where three-dimensional life is experienced in our solar system.

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7. God's Three-Dimensional School of Hard Knocks on the Third Rock from the Sun
 

The Earth is an expression of Divine Mind with its own laws, its own plan, and its own evolution. Souls, longing to feel the beauty of the seas, the winds, the forest, and the flowers, mixed with them and expressed themselves through them. They also mingled with the animals, and made thought forms in imitation of them. Souls played at creating and imitated God. But this interfered with the evolutionary plan of the Earth. Thus, the stream of mind carrying out this plan for the Earth gradually drew souls into its current. Souls had to evolve into the bodies they had themselves created.

This entanglement of souls into physical form was a probability from the beginning. But God did not know when it would happen until the souls, of their own free will, had caused it to happen.

All souls were created by God in the very beginning - before the universe was created. No other souls have been created since then. This means all souls on this planet, pre-existed before birth. Of the souls which God created, only a comparative few have entered into the experience of our solar system. Many other souls have gone through or are going through a similar entanglement in other solar systems in the universe.

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8. The Sons of God Unite with the Daughters of Men
 

A way to liberate the souls entangled in matter was created. A physical form became available as a vehicle for the soul on Earth. A way became available for souls to enter the Earth and experience it as part of their evolutionary/reincarnation cycle. Of the physical forms already existing on Earth, a species of  anthropoid ape most nearly approached the necessary pattern. Souls descended on these apes - hovering above and about them rather than inhabiting them - and influenced them to move toward a different goal from the simple one they had been pursuing. They came down out of the trees, built fires, made tools, lived in communities, and began to communicate with each other. Eventually they lost their animal look, shed bodily hair, and took on refinements of manner and habit.

The evolution of the human body occurred partly through the soul's influence on the endocrine glands until the ape-man was a three-dimensional objectification of the soul hovering above it. Then the soul fully descended into the body and Earth had a new inhabitant: the **** sapien.

**** sapiens appeared in five different places on Earth at the same time, as the five races. This evolved human is what the Bible refers to as "Adam". When souls incarnated into physical form, it would bring the divine consciousness (i.e., the spirit) in with it. Cayce referred to this divine consciousness as the "Christ Consciousness" or "Buddhahood" or the "superconsciousness". Christ consciousness has little to do with the personality known as Jesus. It means a person has attained a complete human-divine unity. This human-divine unity has been attained by many people thus far - one such person was Jesus.

The problem for the soul entangled in flesh was to overcome the attractions of the Earth to the extent the soul would be as free in the body as out of it. Only when the body was no longer a hindrance to the free express of the soul would the cycle of Earth be finished. This is the condition of having a perfect unity of the human with the divine.

In a smaller field, this was the evolutionary drama of free will and creation. In a still smaller field, each atom of the physical body is a world in itself where a drama of free will and creation is occurring. The soul brings life into each atom, and each atom is a physical reflection of the soul's pattern.

With the advent of consciousness, humans became aware of sex meaning something more to them than to the animals. Sex is the "door" which new souls enter the Earth, a door unnecessary in other heavenly planetary/realms. Sex is the only means which trapped souls have of being liberated from their predicament - through the cycle of birth, death and rebirth.

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9. The Evolution of the Soul Through Reincarnation
 

The plan for the Earth cycle of souls was a limited series of incarnations with periods in between of dwelling in other heavenly dimensions of consciousness. Reincarnation would continue until a soul's every thought and action of the physical body was in accord with the plan originally laid out for the soul (i.e., a human-divine unity, Christ consciousness). When the body was no longer a hindrance to the free expression of the soul - when the conscious mind had merged with the subconscious, the Earth cycle was finished and the soul liberated to move on to new adventures. This conquest of the physical body could not be attained until there was perfection in the other dimensions of consciousness which are physically represented by our solar system. Astrologically, the goal for the soul is to attain a level of consciousness representing  the total divine expression of the sun and its planets. Whichever level of consciousness the soul assumes, it becomes the focal point of activity. The other states of consciousness receded to the position of urges and influences.

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10. The Evolution of the Christ Soul from Adam to Jesus to Christhood
 

The human race was fostered by a soul who had completed his experience of creation, attained Christhood, returned to God, and became a companion to God and a co-creator. This is the soul known as Jesus. The first evolutionary transformation of ape-men to **** sapiens is who the Bible refers to as "Adam". This was the beginning of the divine consciousness into flesh on the Earth. The soul known as Jesus, was one of the first souls to enter into one of the Adamic races.

The soul of Jesus was interested in the plight of its fellow souls trapped in Earth. After supervising the influx of souls into flesh, the Christ soul took form itself, from time to time, to act as a leader for the people.

 

At first, these souls just slightly inhabited the bodies of ape-men while remembering their true identities as spirit beings. But gradually, after many incarnations, these souls descended even further into physical consciousness and the result was a decrease in their spiritual mentality. They remembered their true selves only in dreams and in fables which were handed down from one generation to another. Religion came into being as a ritual of longing for lost spirit memories. The arts were born which included music and geometry. This knowledge was brought into the world from incoming souls who gradually forgot their heavenly source. This knowledge had to be written down, learned, and taught to each new generation.

Finally, humans were left with a conscious mind separated from their own individuality as souls. This individual identity as a soul became the subconscious mind. The individual identity or awareness of the physical world became the conscious mind. The subconscious mind (i.e., the soul) influenced the conscious mind and gave it its stature and quality. The subconscious mind dwelt in the "suit of clothes" which is the physical body and only in sleep is it disrobed.

Conscious minds, left to its own influence, will work out the plans and desires of God. Humans eventually developed theories for what they felt was true, but no longer knew to be true. The result was the creation of philosophy and theology. Humans searched and discovered higher knowledge which they carried within themselves but could no longer reach with the conscious mind. This resulted in the creation of science.

Humans evolved from having an awareness of higher spirit knowledge to having only mystical dreams, revealed religions, philosophy and theology. This evolution of consciousness ultimately reached a plateau and humans generally only believed what they could see and feel and prove in terms of their conscious minds. Then humanity began the struggle of regaining this higher knowledge.

Meanwhile, the Christ soul continued to teach and lead humanity by incarnating as the Biblical characters named  Adam,  Enoch, and  Melchizedek. Enoch and Melchizedek experienced neither birth nor death. Then Christ soul realized after these incarnations it was necessary to give humanity a pattern by which they could follow in order to return to God. The Christ soul achieved this goal by incarnating as the personality known as Jesus, who became victorious over the death of the physical body by laying aside the ego, accepting the crucifixion of the body in order to return to God. Jesus created a pattern for humans to follow. Through the acts of leading a perfect life and becoming unjustly killed, this reversed the negative karma (i.e., the law of God, an eye for an eye) which came from Jesus' first incarnation as Adam.

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11. The Law of Karma as a Lesson for Soul Evolution
 

At present, humanity is in a state of great spiritual darkness - the darkness which precedes dawn. Humanity developed a level of  skepticism which reached a point where it forced humans to make conclusions they knew was intuitively wrong. At the same time, humanity continued their investigation of natural phenomena to the point where conscious awareness disproved all the higher knowledge souls had acquired in the beginning. The free will of humanity is discovering how all roads to higher knowledge leads toward the same destination and conclusions. Scientific, theological, and philosophical knowledge, which has no desire to join forces, are  approaching a point of merger. Skepticism faces destruction by its own hand.

Humanity is at all times the total of what they have been and done, what they have fought and defended, and what they have hated and loved. In the three-dimensional consciousness of every human, in every atom of the human body, is a reflection of the soul and a crystallization of their individuality. Their emotional and nervous structures, their mental abilities, aptitudes, aversions, preferences, fears, follies, ambitions, and character, are the sum of what humans have done with their free will. This makes every personality, as the earthly "cloak" of an individuality, is different from every other personality.

The law of  karma, which is Earth's law of cause and effect ("of reaping what one sows") also makes humans different from one another in their joys and sorrows, in their handicaps, their strengths, their weaknesses, their virtues and vices, their appreciation of beauty, and their comprehension of truth. Transgressions humans make in life must be corrected in life, if not in the same life, then in a future incarnation. The Earth's natural law, not the law humanity or God, demands an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

This same law applies to groups of people, as they act together. There is karma for families, for tribes, for races, and for nations. For example, when a nation of individuals started a war in a previous lifetime and are reincarnated, a war will be committed against that nation. Only when such a nation is defeated in humility by a nation with justice and mercy, will the karma of war be lifted from the defeated nation.

Every person's life is shaped to some extent by karma: their own, their associates, their loved ones, their nation, their race, and the entire world itself. But karma is not greater than free will. It is what a person does with these influences and urges, how they react to them, which makes the difference in their soul development. Because of karma, some things are more probable than others, but as long as there exists free will, anything is possible.

Thus free will and predestination coexist within human beings. Their past experiences limit them in probability and incline them in certain directions, but free will can always "draw the sword from the stone." The combination of free will and predestination means humans freely choose their own predetermined destiny to return to God.

No soul incarnates without having a general plan for the life to be experienced. The personality a person expresses in life is only one of the many personalities (i.e., facets of the soul) a person can express. The mission of every soul is to work on one or several facets of the soul's karma (which can be thought of as the soul's memory of its prior actions). A soul does not choose a mission which is more than the soul can handle or which is too much for the personality assigned to or chosen by the soul. Some souls can freely choose their own conditions in which to be born and complete their missions. Other souls who have made too many mistakes in past lives and who have become dangerously influenced by worldly desires, are incarnated into conditions chosen by law of karma at a time and under circumstances best suited to help them with their karmic debt. Their mission is seldom perfectly fulfilled because of the such a soul's large amount of negative karma. Their mission is sometimes badly neglected.

The circumstances and conditions a soul chooses to incarnate into is usually made at conception, when a channel for a soul's expression is opened by the parents. When this occurs, a pattern is made by the mingling of the soul patterns of the parents. This sets up certain karmic conditions. A soul whose own karma approximates these karmic conditions will be attracted to the opportunity presented. Since the karmic pattern created by the parents will not be exactly the same the incarnating soul's own karma, the soul must take on some of the karma of the parents.

Conditions other than the created pattern are conditions the soul must consider when choosing a body to be born with. Such conditions include: the future of the incarnated person's life, former associations with the parents, the incarnation of souls it wishes to incarnate with, live with, and with whom the soul will have problems to work out with. In some cases the parents are the only reason for a some souls to incarnate. Such a child will be devoted to them and remain close to them. The child then completes its mission by dying so the child's death can teach the parents very valuable lessons in life and of spirit. In other cases, the parents are only used as a means for which the child can leave home and go about its business in completing its mission.

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12. The Personality as a Facet of the Soul's Individuality
 

The soul may actually occupy a fetus as early as three months after conception or even as late as a month after birth. In the latter case, the soul hovers over the infants body since birth to decide whether or not to occupy it. Once the decision is made and the occupation completed, the separation between the conscious mind (i.e., personality) and subconscious mind (i.e., the soul) takes place and the soul record (i.e., memory) of the child begins. The fact that some babies are miscarried does not mean it was refused as a vehicle for a soul. Just the opposite is true. The opportunity to incarnate was taken away from the soul due to natural forces and this made the occupation of that particular body impossible.

The personality is a facet of the soul's individuality experienced in three-dimensional consciousness (i.e., body, soul, spirit). The other facets of the soul remains in shadow - in the background. It gives tone to the personality through its urges, appreciations, tastes, avocations, and intuition.

A particular personality of an individual is shaped by three or four incarnations. The emotions and talents of a person reflects these past incarnations. A person's dreams, visions, and meditations are reflections of the soul's experience in other dimensions (i.e., heavenly realms) of consciousness associated physically by our solar system. The human intellect was created from the stars and planets. The intellect is the mind force of the soul which is conditioned by its previous incarnations on Earth and its experiences in other dimensions and even in other solar systems. The intellect becomes dimmed or brightened by its recent experiences within the three-dimensional consciousness of the solar system and the experiences within other dimensional realms of consciousness.

Thus, a personality is only one facet of the soul. The soul may incarnate as any facet to express that particular portion of itself. As a soul approaches its completion of the solar cycle of consciousness, the personality becomes more multi-sided and expresses greater facets of the soul. This is because each incarnation "burns off" negative karma which requires less and less attention. Finally, the personality will become a complete expression of the soul and the cycle of reincarnation is finished for the soul.

As the soul succumbs to worldly desires by abandoning its intellect for sensuality, it becomes more and more one-sided.

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13. The Soul's Liberation from Reincarnation Through Human-Divine Unity
 

When the individual has attained complete human-divine unity, its cycle of reincarnations is finished, the soul is liberated, and the soul then merges with its spirit and, therefore, with God. The soul record (memory) is forever retained. This record is, at all times, is the sum total of what the soul personality has been: all it has thought, all it has experienced; all it has eaten, drunk, and felt through the ages.

Thus, as the soul is subjected to reincarnation, both the atheist and the religionist are correct. The atheist believes the personality does not survive after death. The religionist believes the soul is judged after death by its Creator. Substituting "personality" for "soul", both are expressing the truth. The personality is evaluated after death and then returns to the soul which created it, thereby giving up its own independent existence and becoming once again a facet of the soul. This process is different from the process where the soul merges with the spirit after it completes its cycles of reincarnation.

With each incarnation into the physical realm (the solar system) and the other realms of consciousness, the general plan for perfecting the soul proceeds. Another facet of the soul is assumed and incarnated to experience tribulation in order to reinforce the character of the soul's entire personality.

The trials and tribulations of individuals, groups, nations, and races, are dealt with time and time again through free will until they are solved. Then souls are free to journey to other worlds, or other solar systems, or other universes, or other dimensions of the hierarchy of consciousness.

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14. Quotes from Edgar Cayce about the Cosmos and Souls
 


  In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. How? The Mind of God moved, and matter, form, came into being.

  Spirit is life. Mind is the builder, and the physical is the result.

  In each atom, in each corpuscle, is life. Life is what you worship as God ... and earth is only an atom in the universe of worlds.

  All souls in the beginning were one with the Father. The separation or turning away brought evil.

  For man may separate himself from God - the Spirit - but the spirit does not separate from man.

  All souls were created in the beginning and are finding their way back to whence they came.

  Each soul is destined to become a portion again of the First Cause, or back to its Maker.

  The Father has not willed that any soul should perish, and is thus mindful that each soul has again, and yet again, the opportunity for making its paths straight.

  Life is, in all its manifestations in every animate force, Creative Force in action; and is the love of expression - or expressing that life; truth becoming a result of life's love expressed. For, these are but names - unless experienced in the consciousness of each soul.

  All power, all force, is a manifestation of what is termed the God-consciousness.

  The coming into the Earth has been and is, for the evolution or evolving of the soul unto its awareness.

  Birth in the physical is death in the spiritual. Death in the physical is the birth in the spiritual.

  Each soul enters with a mission. We all have a mission to perform.

  The conquering of self is truly greater than were one to conquer many worlds.

  He who understands nature walks close with God.

  What is truth? Law. What is Law? Love. What is love? God. What is God? Law and love. These are as the cycle of truth itself.

  You grow to heaven. You don't go to heaven.


"All souls were created in the beginning and are finding their way back to whence they came." - Edgar Cayce

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Guys I will stop contributing to this fred for a few reasons, 1; I'm a one fingered typist which is boringly slow, 2; I don't believe I possess the eloquence to express Ethereal concepts/ideas as comprehensively as I would like to and I don't want to simply copy and paste the works of others.

Anyone who is seriously looking for answer has far more tools available to them than I had 40 odd years ago, Mr and Mrs and indeed Ms Google is a great starter for any quest.

Anyone who seriously wants answers will find them very quickly indeed, just not on here. Imho.

BTW, everything Cayce said had been said and written before, his influences were Jung, Ouspensky, and Blavatsky. among  many others. Nothing wrong in that, but he is not a "Messiah". and his liberal references to religious dogma which are interspersed in his "Trance" revelations only weaken rather than strengthen his claims. THE END, for me anyway

thank god for that!

Ifor

So boxing can you say these people have good insight and arguments for the god side??

Has anyone mentioned the devil?? How was he created if god created everything.

many forms
aitl
big chas
glimmer

i cd go on

No C/P guys, especially the long ones, this is a good thread.

It's easy to see how religion developed especially if your of a scientific mind.

That religion is still around baffles me but my Uncle is a minister so I know that the early brainwashing of kids works. I also feel that a fear of death scares people into it but hey I don't want to die either but I think it will be something like it was before I was born.

I'm an Atheist but I'm always open to debate. That's a big difference between Atheists and Deitists. There's a quote attributed to Carl Sagan but it's not his "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe" I think it's SOOOOO true and my favourite quote.

Rational thinking moves this planet forward, not religion. If it religion ruled then we'd still be at the centre of the Universe and stuck in the dark ages. At least science moves us forward, religion just drags us back.

BTW, everything Cayce said had been said and written before, his influences were Jung, Ouspensky, and Blavatsky. among  many others. Nothing wrong in that, but he is not a "Messiah". and his liberal references to religious dogma which are interspersed in his "Trance" revelations only weaken rather than strengthen his claims. THE END, for me anyway Plain

Very nicely put Mr. Fox.

Shayne, Cayce is a load of tosh. We emerged as part of the food chain on planet earth. A mammalian species successfully exploiting a niche, nothing more, nothing less.

I dislike the word Atheist and don't like being described as one, as it makes it sound like you belong to a group and are actively against a belief when religion never even crosses my mind until it's brought up in conversation, if there is a god why bother with evolution, why does something have to evolve when all religious texts have god down as something of a magician.

Money Tree cost me thousands!!,  I don't subscribe to the personified God/s that religion sell us, (and they do sell them, there is always a price,) therefor It follows that I do not subscribe to a personified Devil/s either.

The Good vs bad trick is as old as the hills, it has been used for millennia By Kings Queen, Emperors ect, as justification  for nearly every conflict known, little wonder then that religion seized upon our "tribalistic  nature" to ensure compliance by leading us "on the path of righteousness, enlightenment, and PARADISE, it would have been remiss of them not to!!

Modern commerce have siezed upon our tribal allegiances in sports, particularly football to extract as much of our munnny as they can. We seem incapable of getting through an England game without some C**T banging a drum an the National anthem beinn sung  half a dozen times because the natives know nothing fcking better.

I can't answer for other writings and beliefs,

I was looking the other day at an amazing hubble image of the sombrero galaxy (google it).
It's just one galaxy that's not too distant, with 100 billion stars in it.
So say 20 stars for every person on earth. In just one galaxy you've probably not heard of.

But some people seem to think god happens to be just for their group, at this specific little period in time on this little rock. It doesn't really stand up to analysis I don't think.

Having said that I do believe there is something. I'd believe in him more if he gave me a big lottery win of course. Hint hint. (I also believe he monitors the internet).

Exactly Just Checking, I believe there's something but I can't put my finger on it. Then again, I don't think no one else can either.

I dislike the word Atheist and don't like being described as one, as it makes it sound like you belong to a group and are actively against a belief when religion never even crosses my mind until it's brought up in conversation, if there is a god why bother with evolution, why does something have to evolve when all religious texts have god down as something of a magician.

I dislike the word Agnostic because you either come down one way or the other. You can't sit on the fence for this debate. If you think there may be a god without any evidence then your not an Agnostic, your an Atheist.

I am an Atheist although I can have very different views from you.

*Deitist

So I'm an Atheist Ovalman, even though I believe there's something? Isn't it Deist?

Agnostic is perfectly reasonable, life isn't just black and white.

I've no reason to know if DiaMorphyGloriaEstafan cures Ebola but it might. If it existed.
You can't (unless he choses to allow it) prove the existance of god, and definitely the non existance is impossible to prove, so saying you don't know unless there is some proof either way is probably the more reasonable thing to say. You might weight it strongly towards atheism of course.

I think you can't sit on the fence for this one. Agnosticism is not a way to think if you have a rational brain.

As I quoted "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe"

Give me the evidence and I'll change my mind.

Guys I don't believe in labels or Pigeonholing anyone, instead I would like to believe that when it really matters I can approach new or different ideas with an open mind not obstructed by past experiences and beliefs. Now whether I achieve this or subjectify it unknowingly (to whatever degree) is a different matter.

So you can be 45% Atheist and 55% Deitist?

Is that the correct way to think?

I need hard facts, not pseudo beliefs. There is no Agnosticism on this subject and stop pandering to it.

the evidence for a god is zero.........if you say you believe there could be life on other planets people think youre nuts but believing in an old man in the sky is exceptable

"I think you can't sit on the fence for this one. Agnosticism is not a way to think if you have a rational brain."
I'd say different actually. Given all the evidence Agnostic with a heavy weighting towards atheism is probably the most rational think to think (not believe).

Of course what is missing with a dozen different opinions here is what the hell we're arguing actually about! Is it that:
* There is a god in the christian sense
* There is any sort of god
* There is a supernatural, a *something*
I mean what about Norse gods, or the Inca gods. If we were in india would we be arguing about elephants with 8 arms etc.

I certainly don't believe there is some old bearded man on a cloud or snake god etc but I'm open to believe there is some way something. It might not even be a god or anything but I think there is more than what we see currently, from my own experience.

wheres your evidence??

A P McCoy= God

And I've never ruled out the higher being theory, that would be totally unscientific but if there is a god or gods then they have no bearing on my life and are pretty benign. Unless of course I'm in a game of Sims in which case why would a being want me to disprove him?

Give me the evidence and I'll change my mind.

Ovalman why do you say Deitist, surely the word is Theist. From Theist and A-Theist?

nasty lisph

Why does God have to look like an old man in the sky?

believe in bettor

Is there a correct word?

Deity = god, theist = believer? I never done Latin at school so correct me if you must.

sum
es est
sumis
etis
sunt

didnt he make man in his own image...........so i take it he doesnt look like an horse

My kingdom

cardiff if you are asking me where my evidence is then if you read what i've said I'm obviously not a god bovrur and quite practical, BUT what I might say is I've had (private) experiences that make me believe there is maybe something. Probably. Maybe. 1.44, coming, as I get older, 1.01 when I hit 100

Pascal's wager is always an easy way out of a difficult question. Better believe in a deity than not and therefore guarantee immortality.

What happens if you follow the wrong god?

I never studied latin but can speak some french. It's the same thing really, just with more cheese and militant farmers. Betfair est buggus maximus, espirum veille site fermium, pas bon idium.

One of the first religions (collection of religions) I studied was Gnosticism, The Kabbala/tree of life etc, which concentrated on the spiritual side of existence equally with the physical. Many ancient and modern belief systems borrow and use their practices.I found it very interesting.

Modern Gnosticism, the sort that Maddona and others fools follow is a (pale imitation) cult driven by greed and power. I managed to get 3 friend out of it in the mid 90s when the were requiting in west London. They used simple age old techniques, show a glorified version of possible outcomes, enlightenment, spiritual powers, etc.etc.  first break down the existing beliefs and ego in the individual, then fill the void (BRAINWASH) with their controlling agenda under the guise of spiritual God like gurus, who are the true masters of matter and its manipulation. Scary stuff if you're weak minded or simply spiritually lost.

Ovalman.

"What happens if you follow the wrong god?" ......ovalman .... Learn to be still, by The Eagles, great song.



It's just another day in paradise
As you stumble to your bed
You'd give anything to silence
Those voices ringing in your head

You thought you could find happiness
Just over that green hill
You thought you would be satisfied
But you never will
Learn to be still

We are like sheep without a shepherd
We don't know how to be alone
So we wander 'round this desert
And wind up following the wrong God's home

But the flock cries out for another
And they keep answering that bell
And one more starry-eyed messiah
Meets a violent farewell
Learn to be still, learn to be still

Now the flowers in your garden
They don't smell so sweet
Maybe you've forgotten
The heaven lying at your feet

There are so many contradictions
In all these messages we send
(We keep asking)
How do I get out of here
Where do I fit in?

Though the world is torn and shaken
Even if your heart is breaking
It's waiting for you to awaken
And someday you will
Learn to be still, learn to be still

You just keep on running
Keep on running

Songwriters
HENLEY, DON / LYNCH, STANLEY

Long C/P and forget it. I like the Eagles but couldn't you have sent me a YouTube link?

struggle with Pardew

Been looking since I posted, but the eagles stuff is only in album form at the mo,

How does religion see dinosaurs?
If god created us then he must of created them.
But that's not mentioned in the seven days of creation
Infact according to that the world did not exist.

Any ideas?

Finally. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTlJnUJmTa8&list=PL97Pw8BUdIrws9NBJ4ctq_r5NP...

Yeah that's one thing that puzzles me too, the dinosaurs. It just so happens that they've become extinct though and all the other species haven't.

aasbff, please stay out of blind alleys, Dinosaurs, and their demise and the success of other species has been done to death, if you missed it then look it up.

Do you know that if there was a nuclear (winter) war, everything would perish, but cockroaches and scorpions would survive. FACT!!, so isn't it comforting to know that we would still have a government.

But they existed before the documented creation of earth.
That baffles me.

Documented by people, so it must be true.

"How does religion see dinosaurs?
If god created us then he must of created them.
But that's not mentioned in the seven days of creation
Infact according to that the world did not exist.

Any ideas? "
-------------------------------------

"In 1841, Sir Richard Owen coined the word "dinosaur" to identify the fossils of extinct reptiles. It traces its origins to the Greek words deinos, meaning "terrible" or "fearfully great," and sauros, meaning "lizard." "
---------------------------------------

....1841.....

Of course, the Bible was written in 1840, wasn't it?
---------------------------------------

Leviathan...great dragon...serpent...it's a terrible mistake to think that the Creation account in the Bible is a literal account.

Have you seen TREE OF LIFE, the Terence Malick film? Well worth a watch...regarding dinosaurs, etc...

Hi Vel, guys I have a tooth abscess, I'm medicated up to the eyeballs, I'm offski, good night and good luck.

is it associated to MONEYTREE ?

"Hapax legomenon" and...


"Tohu wa-bohu..."

The second phrase is used at the beginning of the Genesis account. You can Internety searchy the rest...

Boxingthefox - I had one at the Celtic v St. Johnstone game a few years ago...was seated right next to the Green Brigade...the rhythm of the drums seemed to take away the pain...

I like the way the Catholic church is now trying to embrace science as science disprove the nonsense.

Unlike Islam that wants to strap bombs to themselves to kill kids.

"I like the way the Catholic church is now trying to embrace science..."

"...now..." Eh?

This comment is so feckin' dense I don't know WHERE to start...but I'll start anyway : Pascal, Gregor Mendel, Copernicus, Roger Bacon, Teilhard de Chardin...blah blah blah wooby doob do, and so on...sage nod emoticon here ----->

I think they know the facts, the Pontiff are trying to embrace things only 300 years behind.

Good on them though.

Yeah, yeah - whatever.

Not a fan of the Catholic church, but next you'll be telling us they didn't patronize any good artists either...what is that badge, anyway...? Is that a CATHOLIC team?

only if JC up top

they paid well velasquez. very well.

from earlier on, it's not deitist, it deist, from deism, the belief in a non intervening cosmic power.

fwiw, i'm an antitheist and an agnostic deist.

what that means is that i think all the main monotheistic religions (judaism, islam and christianity) are largely made up horsesh1t and not only do i not believe in them, i strongly oppose them.

however i cannot rule out the presence of a cosmic creative force which has no need to reveal itself to our consciousness. i think that just about gets around russell's teapot.

I visited a deist the other day.
I received a polish and 2 fillings!

With regards to the afterlife, you will all eventually find out what I already know!

I hope this clarifies the matter.

it's s an interesting thread


D-Style

what that means is that i think all the main monotheistic religions (judaism, islam and christianity) are largely made up horsesh1t and not only do i not believe in them, i strongly oppose them.

however i cannot rule out the presence of a cosmic creative force which has no need to reveal itself to our consciousness. i think that just about gets around russell's teapot

Just checking

Of course what is missing with a dozen different opinions here is what the hell we're arguing actually about! Is it that:
* There is a god in the christian sense
* There is any sort of god
* There is a supernatural, a *something*

This is where I was coming from regarding believing & as D-style says has no need to reveal itself to us , but actions may of touched many people although the ones that don't believe instantly shut out their options to begin with , just as with the subconscious mind imo .

It's quite correct to say that the catholic church has historically persecuted scientists, just look at what they did to Galileo for saying the Earth revoled around the Sun - convicted him of heresy and he was kept under house arrest until he died.