DID EINSTEIN BELIEVE IN A GOD.

cardiffc. How could I not have the right name when I've read your comments on this thread?

anyone who believes that there was a conspiracy over 9\11 must be suffering a brainhurtz

I can`t remember many topics created by believers forcing their faith on others, but atheists bang on about there not being a God every ******* week.

anybody who thinks 9\11 was a conspiracy  should be locked up in broadmoor......for his own safety

You are very naive cardiff. If you really knew what went on in the dark corridors of Whitehall and Washington you would be totally shocked. They are monitoring this forum as I write so I can`t say no more. Don`t want to accidentally fall in front of a bus tomorrow

9/11 could easily have been prevented but they needed an excuse to invade Iraq and get the oil. Weapons of mass destruction my ****. Pity Dr Kelly committed suicide while compiling his report on the subject.

Going back to the beautiful planet, that couldn't have been formed without some divine intervention argument - it's worth remembering that we're the only planet we know of, that is positioned the "right" distance from the sun to support life. Lucky, not blessed.

And the beauty of our planet is totally aesthetic and subjective. Our conscious minds find certain shapes, forms and landscapes, aesthetically pleasing. Doesn't mean that an alien could come down and find everything completely repulsive. Beauty is completely in the eye of the beholder.

Our conscious minds give us a horrible time over the nature of reality.

If David Kelly's death is not a subject for conspiracy theorist, I don't what is?
Blair says Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, David Kelly says they don't, two weeks later he commits suicide
very convenient to say the least

interesting dontwin2easy

We understand far less about our universe than we know, some of it is baffling
so if anybody wants to believe in a creator, there is plenty of room, you can believe in any of the Gods
we have had so far...or invent any of your own

The watch is a proper example of intelligent design.It has a purpose.the Universe may have been designed but if so it was by an idiot.Nothing on this earth has any purpose other than to reproduce itself. All the fantastic efforts of the salmon and the bees and the birds of paradise ,which involve complicated and amazing patterns have one aim and one result: survival for its own sake. How is that intelligent?

is science is correct they say energy can neither be created or destroyed ,so that means the energy of the  universe will last forever. so they say things like "one day the universe will end as we know it".i love to say to these people "we don't know the universe"

Interestingly the co founder of modern evolutionary theory...must have believed in God
he was a monk!...Mendel and his peas.

He must also have accepted 'The Origin of the Species' to do the work he did.
He was looking at the practical problem of how our attributes or genomes, I think they are called?
were actually passed on from parent to offspring, and how a species could manage to change or adapt itself.

Sadly unrecognised in his own lifetime. But later rediscovered, and recognised
as the genius he was.

very true ebul

We all create a utilitarian version of reality in our brains necessary for survival and the avoidance of injury along with many other things. Many of these constructs we find aesthetically pleasing, some we don't.
No-one knows what lies behind the veneer, some invent a fantasy world, others measure and use logic to construct analogies to fit these findings, being ready to modify them as new observations are made. There is still a long way for science to go as Einstein clearly realised. The more popular of the fantasy worlds are stuck in the bronze age as they claim to already know all the answers.

Brassneck, you certainly have a point, I do not believe we do know the true nature of our Universe either

Why is the expansion of the universe speeding up when it should be slowing down
Where is the missing matter in the universe the big bang predicts, what on earth is dark matter or dark energy??????
That is just for starters

Unfortunately to know what happens at the end of the Universe , we need to live an awfully long time.
We also have to be exceptionally clever, very few of us are

If our species race relied on the brain of the average person, including myself
I have some doubt we would even have discovered fire yet

Some of the posts on this thread confirm that
but gladly not all

True Foinavon...in some ways including myself..I am still hoping to find that book of spells one day
to satisfy all my needs

Our brains actually hold contradictory beliefs, we use them when necessary, it aids our survival.
So I love animals, but still eat them, they are too tasty for their own good...
so I switch to either of these contradictory beliefs when in suits me

...and I would so love to conjure up the devil, hooves, horns, goat's head the lot

ebulGery


Darwin never believed in God. Einstein probably did not either
but I think he wanted to believe deep down, there is a need in us

and you surely cannot expect Einstein to disappoint a little girl
that would too cruel


- Not sure about that. Darwin certainly had issues with the bible and religion. But I dont think he ruled out the idea of God as creator. I think of him as agnostic similar perhaps so Einstein. Neither saw things as black or white but were open minded which of course made them great scientists in my view anyway.

Our minds are truly complicated ebul. Logic rarely enters into the equation in everyday circumstances
happy hunting with your spells .

Foinavon

Agnostic
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.

yes fits keen leader

Nutter thread...............................................

good evening Dewey, just passing through?

Your appearance dewey has definitely confirmed that it`s a nutter thread

Stick to idolising celebrities young lady

I agree with Dobbo. Our only purpose in life is to procreate.

on a similar thread someone posted about the "the denial of death" book and I'd never heard of it, though the wiki entry for it makes loads of sense to me.

ultimately you can take solace in our own mortality and fellow people, or go out on a limb and look out for the answers. Whatever the answer may be, it's so astronomically distant and detached from our own sense of being... it likely wouldn't have a tangible effect on our own sense of life.

our lives are chance or deterministic? doesn't matter. created by an omnipotent being or race? doesn't matter. on a day to day basis you're still admiring a nice pair of chebs, tasty grub, the world cup and some interesting conversation. If there were infinite universes out there each acting out the minute quanta of differences in each individual moment, and you knew for sure those alternatives existed, it wouldn't have a huge bearing on our day to day life, IMO.

as one geezer said, the laws governing our universe might not have to accommodate physicists feeling happy about it.

also it's worth noting, einstein was a really smart f@cker... he clearly invested a lot of energy into it for the benefit of mankind.

if only the median for people was a lot closer to his ideas than some lazy arsed chucking out of ideas about the subject, like it was yet another episode of jeremy kyle.

I noticed Jeremy Kyle got zapped by bouncer in Magaluf with a taser the other day.

What more proof do you need that there is indeed a God

Trying to understand all of creation for man is like trying to drink soup with a knife and fork. We simply dont have the tools for the job. Our brain is very good at helping us survive it seems in order to reproduce but is incapable of understanding all other aspects of existence. I am told that infinity is something which goes on for ever but try as I might I really can't get my head round that. It is as if there is another dimension to which we do not have access.
The thought for the day is why does life have a compulsion to reproduce? Not how but WHY.
Perhaps cardiffc in his arrogant lack of wisdom could enlighten us.

The agnostic view
God must be unknowable

Infinity is a tricky and dangerous subject..it is an incredibly difficult concept for the human mind to grasp
It has driven a few mathematicians mad....including Gödel...Einstein's friend

Not that I understand a word of what Gödel says, my knowledge comes from documentaries and Wikipedia

bix

The thought for the day is why does life have a compulsion to reproduce? Not how but WHY.

Yes looking at some specimens of humanity on a daily basis, and post on here, I could ask that question bix?

Unfortunately that is the basic rule of life, otherwise how could it exist????????

As for answering why does life exist, like everybody else I have no idea?
We are free to speculate...there does even have to be a WHY..WHY is a human concept
Another one of those concepts our human minds find incredibly difficult to grasp...I am not sure we can.

this is the real thing..........not a dress rehearsal....................NAP

If you do not believe in a god or some sort of 'super natural' , and think that everything is determined by strict laws of physics, then you take away everything that you hold dear about being a human or an individual.

If everything is down to chemical reactions, physical laws etc then that means that everything was predetermined from the moment of the big bang, EVERYTHING.

If the theory is correct, with  the correct knowledge and a computer powerful enough to track every particle, atom, electron etc etc , you could predict everything, every thought, everything. It means that every decision you make, you actually didn't, it is all down to the laws of the universe. You might think you are an individual with free thought, but if you do not believe in some sort of 'super natural', then you are just the product of the strict Laws of the Universe. You are not in control, you cannot control your future, your future is fixed.
Me, writing this now, was already destined to happen billions of years ago.

This theory will free you from all responsibility, as nothing can be your fault, it is just the laws of physics that make you do everything. If you don't believe in something 'else', then what are you?, who are you? just a walking chemical reaction with no purpose.

Intelligent design as mental as the theory is, is the only real option as far as I can see. That does not mean God, or any of the earths religions etc they are obviously products of mans fear and ignorance. It just means there is 'something else'......

I regularly shagged a bird all night in the mid 70s heatwave.

She told me I was 'something else'

Whether I'm god or not, I have no idea.

cardifffc
17 Jul 14 22:46   
owmy brains.......you have the right name............nap

Scientifically speaking, he doesn't, the brain feels no pain.

That depends if the something else was meant as a compliment or the reverse taxi

That is the deterministic theory of the Universe Ampleforth  which in fact could be true
Whether we want it or not is irrelevant.....either it is, or it is not

Of course the scope to calculate everything that will happen in the Universe from the big bang to the end of the Universe
is completely beyond our comprehension...so to all practical purposes we must act as if we have free will.

Of course if something happens outside our laws of physics that affects something(assuming we understand them all)
then we no longer have a deterministic universe, assuming we cannot predict this

An Intelligent design is one option, who in fact can make things happen which are not within the physical laws of our Universe

Although having things happen at random(truly random) could effect it as well. i.e. Matter or energy springing in and out of existence,
in some way we cannot predict would be another.

I should read up on it a bit Amplethorpe tbh

I have often thought the Universe is deterministic
At the moment, the results of a horse race are not even deterministic, at least to some of us

so to all practical purposes we must act as if we have free will.

but there in lies the problem, because acting as if you have a free will, in a predetermined universe is actually you just doing that what was predetermined at the big bang and therefore there is no such thing as free will, so whats the point in acting as if there is....

I too think that the Universe is deterministic..... its depressing... and yet I feel so special

ample.........think your over complicating things..........we live we die.....nothing after.......

most non believers would like this not to be the end..........but sadly the evidence is overwhelming that we have one shot........buried in the ground..worm food or in a biscuit tin i"m afraid.............nap

and we choose to use 'our shot' spending way too much time on a gambling forum.. its even more depressing

It doesn't make much difference if you spend your whole life watching tv or being a creative genius or achieving great things. Once its over you join the multi legions of the dead as an eternal foot soldier.

and some of us, ampleforth, have longed to get to know this 'something else.' If we as human beings arent an accident, and intelligent design is at work, then it stands to reason that the intelligence behind our design, just may a spiritual being.

..and then...assuming this spiritual being used intelligent designin order to create, there may have been a reason behind this creation. Or did this 'designer' create and then just sit back and think, 'feck it all, thats me now!'

god must have been very bored for 4.7 billion years...........what was he doing................reading a book.....

he was playing leonard cohen records

but there in lies the problem, because acting as if you have a free will, in a predetermined universe is actually you just doing that what was predetermined at the big bang and therefore there is no such thing as free will, so whats the point in acting as if there is....

because we do not know for certain either way??

So it is perfectly acceptable to act as if life has a purpose, even if it has not, if that is what we are comfortable with.
I think our Human Mind needs a purpose, whether one exists or not. That in itself may be the purpose of us, to solve problems???

As I have grown older, I have realised that life may be deterministic, so to a degree we must enjoy the ride if we can.
Because often the best bits in life are the journey itself, not the destination, and we have to travel the journey anyway.

That does mean some people will look on life solely as some hedonistic paradise. We just live for the here and now.
But that can become can become dissatisfying in itself, and we find our lives lack purpose. We can make up small purposes
for ourselves... i.e.'I will decorate the lounge, etc'

I wish I had a bit more hedonism when I was young though

Also it is not possible to act as if we have no free will at all...if someone asks us
'do you want sugar with your tea or coffee', we do have to make a decision, or we would look silly, even if it is predetermined.

We are free to make our own decisions, and basically just hope we have some quality of life
whether it is deterministic or not

Ampleforth

chit chat is full of acid casualties from the sixties imo

if there is no god it means that everything started from nothing.even the big bang started from nothing.and the difficult question is ,how can something start from nothing.(he he,science says energy can not be created,so in that statement science laws break down,because the big bang created energy,and its science that tells us that all started with a big bang.confused?so am I,and I posted it,and I don't understand .

Jul 18, 2014 -- 5:32AM, Ampleforth wrote:

If you do not believe in a god or some sort of 'super natural' , and think that everything is determined by strict laws of physics, then you take away everything that you hold dear about being a human or an individual. If everything is down to chemical reactions, physical laws etc then that means that everything was predetermined from the moment of the big bang, EVERYTHING. If the theory is correct, with  the correct knowledge and a computer powerful enough to track every particle, atom, electron etc etc , you could predict everything, every thought, everything. It means that every decision you make, you actually didn't, it is all down to the laws of the universe. You might think you are an individual with free thought, but if you do not believe in some sort of 'super natural', then you are just the product of the strict Laws of the Universe. You are not in control, you cannot control your future, your future is fixed. Me, writing this now, was already destined to happen billions of years ago.This theory will free you from all responsibility, as nothing can be your fault, it is just the laws of physics that make you do everything. If you don't believe in something 'else', then what are you?, who are you? just a walking chemical reaction with no purpose. Intelligent design as mental as the theory is, is the only real option as far as I can see. That does not mean God, or any of the earths religions etc they are obviously products of mans fear and ignorance. It just means there is 'something else'......

Can't agree with that at all. We all have free will to an extent (although I believe our genomes determine our behaviour to a greater extent than most of us realise).

But the actions of any individual are confined by the laws of physics and chemistry. It doesn't follow that by fully understanding the science of our world, that the actions of any individual are predictable - only probable.

Just as the shape of any snowflake that drops from the sky is predictable. Our actions are confined within the realms of a physical reality.

Our science is obviously incomplete but that doesn't mean i would happily rule out you turning water into wine based on all of our historical and empirical evidence to date.

so we all agree with mr.einstein,an intelligent force governs the universe,i think quantum physics agree with this also,but the intelligent force is not the god that most people believe,it is an unknown force with intelligent design."oh I feel great now.i have solved the problem that has lasted for 16 billion years".problem of the universe solved by Brassneck(18-7-2014)

breadnbutter  • July 18, 2014 9:44 PM BST
chit chat is full of acid casualties from the sixties imo

I don't think Einstein agreed with quantum physics brassneck
having something in two places at the same time he found difficult to accept, in fact so do I
not that I understand quantum physics...my knowledge, and brain probably, is not up to it

Determinism can give some advantage though. It could make us more philosophical, accepting of life,
so less dissatisfied. 

It tends to be more like this in the far East, although this can have its disadvantages, people accept things
when they be improving their life.

But I think we could with more of it in the West, to combat this consumerist society we have.
Everybody is told to be dissatisfied with everything they have, so they will go out and buy the latest model,
even though there is little wrong with the old one.

its quantum agreeing with albert,but they are close to proving it.but on the other points you make I agree with them.if people really knew that they buy things in the hope that it will make them happy,what they don't know is that happiness comes from within.you are a very intelligent guy ebulgery,perhaps I could suggest to you to  check out a video on a women called Abraham hicks.it is based on thought patterns and there is a secret to life in it.its really powerful stuff,but you must give it time to manifest .who knows it may bring you all the things in life that seems impossible to acquire .your post is very good.

ta brassneck...I will google that
although I think I appear more intelligent than I am tbh

Back to the GOD question, one argument for a creator..............

So far as we know we are the only life in the Universe
That would defy probability, if life is a result of the physical laws of the our Universe, unless the probability
is so high, life can only occur once per universe...considering the size of the Universe, that is extremely high odds

Of course we don't know that as yet. One purpose of the human race could be to find it out. Or indeed to colonise
the universe.(I used to read a lot of science fiction as a kid)

The technology required is some way in the future sadly.
And worrying we are becoming more and more introverted lately.
We think worrying about our weight is more important than answering the big questions

We still have no idea how life started, although we have worked out how evolution works, once it has.
But to get from inanimate things to DNA is blank at the moment I think????????????????????????

I wonder if Hawking has any more in him to discover something fundamental about the universe. Imagine that moment when he does, possibly with cack dribbling down his leg. What do you communicate first?

That is a pretty appalling post erse2

You are mocking someone who suffers a dreadful disease

For all that he has a great mind, few people have that sadly

with god worshippers like erse 2 i am glad i dont believe in the invisible man in the sky

cardiff you've shown you're a mental midget throughout this thread.

ebulgery it was supposed to allude to our own mortality

why have a go at me and ebul........a pretty appalling post he said............we know what you meant.............you cant backtrack after your distasteful post

Yes I think we admire Hawkins mind

but I suspect few would want the package deal would they....his mind plus his disease

he has also shown great determination and fortitude here

you are right Cardiff....I am not sure he can backtrack....hmmm??????????????????????????

you unwrite it..........its too late

cant*

he's a victim of his circumstance, just like the rest of us.

physically disabled yet a brilliant mind. i didn't realise the PC brigade would be out on that one. i guess his inability to control his body is totally different to an inability to understanding a subject concisely and able to describe it.

the opposite of you then

If you did not mean it the way it came across, then ok, but hmmmm???? erse2

everyone chooses their own belief as far as I am concerned, I do not judge

this discussion is a theoretical one the existence and possible nature of GOD

it seems even someone as brilliant as Einstein was not sure.

Many eminent scientists believe in God. However, most atheists tend to take the word of the likes of Hawkings as their own personal Gospel. His call on us to choose between God and physics is far too simplistic.

Hawking claims, physical laws can never provide a complete explanation of the universe. Laws themselves do not create anything, they are merely a description of what happens under certain conditions. Similarly, the laws of physics could never have actually built the universe. Some agency must have been involved.

To use a simple analogy, Isaac Newton's laws of motion in themselves never sent a snooker ball racing across the green baize. That can only be done by people using a snooker cue and the actions of their own arms.

Hawking's argument appears to me even more illogical when he says the existence of gravity means the creation of the universe was inevitable. But how did gravity exist in the first place? Who put it there? And what was the creative force behind its birth?

It is fascinating that Hawking, in attacking religion, feels compelled to put so much emphasis on the Big Bang theory. Because, even if the non-believers don't like it, the Big Bang fits in exactly with the Christian narrative of creation.

That is why, before the Big Bang gained currency, so many scientists were keen to dismiss it, since it seemed to support the Bible story. Some clung to Aristotle's view of the 'eternal universe' without beginning or end; but this theory, and later variants of it, are now deeply discredited.

Yet many scientists and non believers like Cardiff talk about 'the invisible man in the sky' and claim 'there was no Jesus.' However, Jesus' existence is well-documented; not just in the scriptures and other testimony but also in a wealth of archaeological findings. To denounce a factual being yet give credence to the theoretical existence of aliens seems to me to be paradoxical and not logical.

Yet, they state science is based on proof and religion on storytelling?!

It always amuses me that atheists often argue for the existence of extra-terrestrial intelligence beyond earth (HAwkings again offered up the possibility but obviously could not present any). Yet they are only too eager to denounce the possibility that we already have a vast, intelligent being out there: God.

Yet non believers ask Christians to provide proof of Gods existence.

I am with Einstein in his belief about closed minds. Surely science has taught us that dismissing something which they cannot prove either way is about as un scientific as you can get.

Amen.

charwell .......good post but there being a god is still a million to one

charwell,
Most atheists don't take the word of the likes of Hawking, they think it through for themselves and then decide to reject the 2000 year old confidence trick.

Some great posts on this thread.the proof of Jesus existence shows in history dates.2014 (THIS YEAR) is that not 2014 years since the birth of Christ,according to Christian faith.

ask kenny he was there in Witherspoons

have you seen that clip where ali g is being  told by a catholic priest that jesus was born in a stable because there was no room at the inn...ali g asks him ...is that because it was christmas

Don't think many people dispute the claim that a man called Jesus of Nazareth once existed, what is contentious is the claim for the existence of God.

There are loads, Muhammad, Allah, Buddha, Mithras etc, etc !

cardifffc
20 Jul 14 00:31   
have you seen that clip where ali g is being  told by a catholic priest that jesus was born in a stable because there was no room at the inn...ali g asks him ...is that because it was christmas

The same joke was done 50 years ago in Til Death Us Do Part by Alf Garnett and his wife.

Who on here really gives a fack if there is a god or not?

There are loads of Gods Mac - Muhammad, Allah, Buddha, Mithras etc,etc

it was jesus himself who clamed to be the son of god.sometimes I think the bible itself is crazy ,but who ever wrote it quoted things about the universe that proved to be true ,1600 hundred years later.so the guys that wrote it must have being seriously clever.

Respect to Charwell but have a problem with his comments "the laws of physics could never have actually built the universe"

yes the laws of physics are the basic building blocks and are known and they present in all known matter ...imvoh

There are forces in play in our universe that we don't understand imo,for example imagine a force that could put a double decker bus in a  matchbox and x it by millions ,this is the sort of forces that could be at play imo ,i dont understand any of it ,but have always believed anything is possible and nothing is impossible  ,human conciousness is very tangible and we do have a huge mind capacity ,but so do dolphins.Crows are capable of problem solving ,dogs have great powers and in many senses eyesight ,hearing ,smelling  they are well advanced of anything a human can muster so any belief that we are so important that we must have a Creator is just fanciful.

*imvho

brass........and theres science in the bible totally wrong

Did ****, Australopithecus and Paranthropus, stone-age, bronze age and iron-age peeps all go to hell.. as they hadn't committed to a god? Seems so unfair that religion only developed alongside the written word.

hi cardiffc,yes the bible is full of crazy stuff,but so is science,i I am told that science can not prove a term called an "event horizon" they don't even know what it is,and use it as a get out clause.but they also say if there is no event horizon that science books can be chucked into the waste paper bin.i think the bible could be in the same bin.

Science can prove very little when it comes to the explaining the origins of man and that's why mostly they expound theories .....
"The Theory of Evolution", "the Big-Bang Theory", etc. etc.

Just ask a Chrisitian who the Nephilim were, usually provokes a heated debate !

there are certain things that are present but we can not see them.for example,the wind,a black hole,are two that spring to mind,but we know they are there because we see the effects,einstein quoted that the universe is built on intelligent design,because he could see the effects.the bible god story breaks down because a human claimed to be his son(in my very humble opinion)and nature (as we know it )could not control all the mysteries of the universe.remember at present the big bang is back on the science table to be examined.and higgs has added a big confusing piece to the jigsaw,while sub atomic photons of the atom disappear if they are viewed.simply "our minds are not able to understand it all"

And one last point,there is a little force called GRAVITY,had all the gravity in the universe been present at the first second of the big bang nothing would have moved.so gravity must have appeared later on.so at some time it was the controler otherwise there would be no universe.and the latest science news is that the universe is expanding faster that ever before(2 months old news).so its down to dark matter,that nobody has ever seen ,nobody knows what it is,they cant find it,and they don't know where to look for it,but like the wind they know its there.

This debate could go on and on and every point raised raises even more questions.

For instance, if the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?

that is a question that can not be answered,the greeks posed a question to the science world  in 1929,that if a guy went to the bounderies of  the universe and stuck his arm out where would his arm go.they are still waiting for their answer.but at the moment the answer is the universe is expanding into nothing.(he he)

I'm watching Mock the Week - do I care :)

As 'infinity' makes no sense, Einstein theorised that space is curved.

He said that if you set off in one direction, eventually, you will come bak to where you started.

Make sure you turn the oven off and feed the goldfish before you leave.

1 AU(distance from the Earth to the Sun) equals 149,597,870.691 km. Based on that figure  the Solar System is 1,921.56 AU in diameter.

http://www.universetoday.com/15585/diameter-of-the-solar-system/#ixzz386rGTllN