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.....excellent article by Polly Toynbee....
Expect triumphant headlines for the latest employment figureson Wednesday. More people will be in work, which is good news: far better to have half a job than no job at all. But the last three-monthly figures showed that all the increase – yes, all of it – was not in jobs but in soaring self-employment, says Jonathan Portes of the National Institute for Economic and Social Research.
Morgan Stanley reports that 80% of all employment gains since 2007 are in self-employment: "As a result the headline employment data have significantly exaggerated the strength of the labour market." The main driver has been "lack of alternative opportunities". It notes this under-employment slack in the economy means no "significant additional upward pressure on wages". Permanent low pay may be the future. Figures later this week may show pay at last rising above inflation, but deceptively, they don't include all these self-employed people.
The TUC finds that 540,000 of the jobs created since 2010 are self-employed roles, with the over-50s in the majority and over-65s the fastest growing group. Are these thrusting entrepreneurs? No, the number running their own business has fallen by 52,000 since 2010. Most are people hanging on to work by their fingertips; freelancing and contracted out with "Fewer rights, less pay and no job security," says TUC general secretary Frances O'Grady. Agency work and zero-hours contracts are growing ever more deeply embedded in the economy – no replacement for the good jobs lost. Earnings of the self-employed have been falling: the average for self-employed women is just £10,000.
However, the better the employment figures, the more eager the government is to tighten the screws on those who are still unemployed. At last autumn's party conference George Osborne again attacked the workless: "We are saying there is no option of doing nothing for your benefits, no something-for-nothing any more. They will do useful work to put something back into the community, making meals for the elderly, clearing up litter, working for a local charity. Others will be made to attend the jobcentre every working day." So in a fortnight that Help to Work programme is due to start.
Those out of work for a year go through the Work Programme for two years, but now if they emerge with no job – as many do – Help to Work awaits them. Will workfare work? "The DWP's own analysis of existing evidence, both internationally and in the UK, suggests such schemes are generally ineffective", finds Portes. For once, instead of rushing in, the DWP has done a good control trial on this with 15,000 unemployed. The pilot's results, however, were sneaked out just before Christmas with no press release. That's no surprise when you uncover the findings.
First the unemployed were given a 13-week warning period to act as a deterrent, and then 26 weeks of either "intensive Jobcentre Plus support", or the workfare "community action programme". Or they went into the control group with nothing special. Here's what happened: exactly the same number in the control group – 18% – found themselves jobs as those doing the forced community work. Just 1% more found jobs from the group with jobcentre support. In other words, workfare didn't work. Although 68% of the control group were still on unemployment benefits at the end, so were 66% of those who did the community work and 64% of those given jobcentre support.
Good for the DWP for doing a proper pilot study – but why is it plunging ahead with Osborne's scheme at a cost of £300m a year when it knows it doesn't work? The DWP has failed to provide a cost-benefit analysis. As with the mandatory work activity scheme, the main effect of forcing this group to pick up litter is to prompt more to claim employment and support allowance for disability: many are sick in one way or another, but haven't admitted it until pushed. No savings are made from that benefit switch.
Here's another interesting finding. Portes describes this as a "very difficult client group to help back to work, with many facing severe and/or multiple barriers", already three years out of work before entering this scheme. Every society has some people with all manner of problems: however much you chivvy and bully them they are unlikely to appeal to employers. You can sanction and intimidate some away from claiming altogether, but that lands them at food banks or on the streets, not in work. Are these the skivers who need frightening out of what Iain Duncan Smith keeps calling "a lifestyle choice"? Not according to this pilot study. If they had been fraudulently claiming with other means of support, they would have disappeared off workfare – but 80% did their six months of community without being shaken off benefits. At the end, they were still no more employable than those in the control group.
I asked the DWP for more information on Help to Work, now only two weeks from its launch. How many people will go on it? What kind of community work is being found? Which brave charities or local authorities are risking their reputation by taking on free forced labourers for six months, without displacing genuine jobs? As yet, there is no answer: the names of suppliers of Community Work haven't been announced, not even the private firms paid to find the community work.
I asked for the pilot's results but the DWP always obfuscates with irrelevant information: "The vast majority of people move off jobseeker's allowance quickly – over 75% of people end their JSA claim within six months." Well, yes, it's always been the case that most people are only out of work briefly. But what about the pilot results with these long-term unemployed? No figures for the success rate were forthcoming – only these, about attitudes: a majority of those on workfare and at jobcentres "reported an increased motivation to find work". Some 84% of both groups reported "a positive shift in their attitude to work". Of those on workfare 76% reported "a sense of satisfaction from being in a work routine". Fair enough, though the surprise is they didn't give the full North Korean 100% reply.
It's just as well I already had the actual outcome figures. But why is the DWP rolling out a programme it knows is a near worthless expense? One advantage is that those on Help to Work will be counted off official unemployment figures for six months. Incidentally, these sad long-term cases will do more than twice the maximum any court can sentence a thief to on Community Payback. To be out of work is now officially morally worse than committing a crime.
Expect triumphant headlines for the latest employment figureson Wednesday. More people will be in work, which is good news: far better to have half a job than no job at all. But the last three-monthly figures showed that all the increase – yes, all of it – was not in jobs but in soaring self-employment, says Jonathan Portes of the National Institute for Economic and Social Research.
Morgan Stanley reports that 80% of all employment gains since 2007 are in self-employment: "As a result the headline employment data have significantly exaggerated the strength of the labour market." The main driver has been "lack of alternative opportunities". It notes this under-employment slack in the economy means no "significant additional upward pressure on wages". Permanent low pay may be the future. Figures later this week may show pay at last rising above inflation, but deceptively, they don't include all these self-employed people.
The TUC finds that 540,000 of the jobs created since 2010 are self-employed roles, with the over-50s in the majority and over-65s the fastest growing group. Are these thrusting entrepreneurs? No, the number running their own business has fallen by 52,000 since 2010. Most are people hanging on to work by their fingertips; freelancing and contracted out with "Fewer rights, less pay and no job security," says TUC general secretary Frances O'Grady. Agency work and zero-hours contracts are growing ever more deeply embedded in the economy – no replacement for the good jobs lost. Earnings of the self-employed have been falling: the average for self-employed women is just £10,000.
However, the better the employment figures, the more eager the government is to tighten the screws on those who are still unemployed. At last autumn's party conference George Osborne again attacked the workless: "We are saying there is no option of doing nothing for your benefits, no something-for-nothing any more. They will do useful work to put something back into the community, making meals for the elderly, clearing up litter, working for a local charity. Others will be made to attend the jobcentre every working day." So in a fortnight that Help to Work programme is due to start.
Those out of work for a year go through the Work Programme for two years, but now if they emerge with no job – as many do – Help to Work awaits them. Will workfare work? "The DWP's own analysis of existing evidence, both internationally and in the UK, suggests such schemes are generally ineffective", finds Portes. For once, instead of rushing in, the DWP has done a good control trial on this with 15,000 unemployed. The pilot's results, however, were sneaked out just before Christmas with no press release. That's no surprise when you uncover the findings.
First the unemployed were given a 13-week warning period to act as a deterrent, and then 26 weeks of either "intensive Jobcentre Plus support", or the workfare "community action programme". Or they went into the control group with nothing special. Here's what happened: exactly the same number in the control group – 18% – found themselves jobs as those doing the forced community work. Just 1% more found jobs from the group with jobcentre support. In other words, workfare didn't work. Although 68% of the control group were still on unemployment benefits at the end, so were 66% of those who did the community work and 64% of those given jobcentre support.
Good for the DWP for doing a proper pilot study – but why is it plunging ahead with Osborne's scheme at a cost of £300m a year when it knows it doesn't work? The DWP has failed to provide a cost-benefit analysis. As with the mandatory work activity scheme, the main effect of forcing this group to pick up litter is to prompt more to claim employment and support allowance for disability: many are sick in one way or another, but haven't admitted it until pushed. No savings are made from that benefit switch.
Here's another interesting finding. Portes describes this as a "very difficult client group to help back to work, with many facing severe and/or multiple barriers", already three years out of work before entering this scheme. Every society has some people with all manner of problems: however much you chivvy and bully them they are unlikely to appeal to employers. You can sanction and intimidate some away from claiming altogether, but that lands them at food banks or on the streets, not in work. Are these the skivers who need frightening out of what Iain Duncan Smith keeps calling "a lifestyle choice"? Not according to this pilot study. If they had been fraudulently claiming with other means of support, they would have disappeared off workfare – but 80% did their six months of community without being shaken off benefits. At the end, they were still no more employable than those in the control group.
I asked the DWP for more information on Help to Work, now only two weeks from its launch. How many people will go on it? What kind of community work is being found? Which brave charities or local authorities are risking their reputation by taking on free forced labourers for six months, without displacing genuine jobs? As yet, there is no answer: the names of suppliers of Community Work haven't been announced, not even the private firms paid to find the community work.
I asked for the pilot's results but the DWP always obfuscates with irrelevant information: "The vast majority of people move off jobseeker's allowance quickly – over 75% of people end their JSA claim within six months." Well, yes, it's always been the case that most people are only out of work briefly. But what about the pilot results with these long-term unemployed? No figures for the success rate were forthcoming – only these, about attitudes: a majority of those on workfare and at jobcentres "reported an increased motivation to find work". Some 84% of both groups reported "a positive shift in their attitude to work". Of those on workfare 76% reported "a sense of satisfaction from being in a work routine". Fair enough, though the surprise is they didn't give the full North Korean 100% reply.
It's just as well I already had the actual outcome figures. But why is the DWP rolling out a programme it knows is a near worthless expense? One advantage is that those on Help to Work will be counted off official unemployment figures for six months. Incidentally, these sad long-term cases will do more than twice the maximum any court can sentence a thief to on Community Payback. To be out of work is now officially morally worse than committing a crime.
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Excellent article.
It's been happening for the last couple of years, this government wants the return of workhouses.
The distribution of wealth, a few people having nearly all the money, leaving most of us scrabbling around for what's left. A few companies having nearly all the money, leaving less and less small businesses scrabbling around for what's left. These things suit those in power and they want to keep it that way, so they deflect attention by creating a scapegoat. The filthy, feckless, scrounging unemployed. Or, the lying, idle, disabled workshy.
The only hope is that there might be enough underlying intelligence in this country to see what they're doing and never vote for them again.
It's been happening for the last couple of years, this government wants the return of workhouses.
The distribution of wealth, a few people having nearly all the money, leaving most of us scrabbling around for what's left. A few companies having nearly all the money, leaving less and less small businesses scrabbling around for what's left. These things suit those in power and they want to keep it that way, so they deflect attention by creating a scapegoat. The filthy, feckless, scrounging unemployed. Or, the lying, idle, disabled workshy.
The only hope is that there might be enough underlying intelligence in this country to see what they're doing and never vote for them again.
Good article. The main aim of this government is to stay in power and see that the very wealthy stay that way - in fact get wealthier. Throughout the recession and "austerity" the rich haven't suffered at all - they've even got richer.
under tory rule, it has always been the poorer classes, the disabled, the 'plebian' for want of a better expression, who are the scapegoats. The gov't the utility companies, the powers that be generally, get away with murder. They know perfectly well a time is coming when people cant even afford the basic necessities, the food banks agree with this; you really wouldn't believe it in this day and age, and yet we all just accept the status quo.
What do people who use foodbanks spend their money on if it isnt food?
There was a programme about foodbanks a few weeks ago, seemed to me that most of them had got themselves in debt, often with wonga pay day type places, so they hardly had any money. Seems to me that the kind of people that get in trouble with pay day loan companies are just not fit to be given money and so perhaps food banks and luncheon vouchers is the best way to make sure they dont go hungry.
I think personal finance should be taught in schools.
I think personal finance should be taught in schools.
They spend their money on ridiculous costs to rent a roof over their heads, most of the poor having no chance of getting a mortgage. They spend it on ridiculously high utility bills - set high so the 'investors' reap the rewards for massive, ever-increasing profits. They probably do spend some on vastly overpriced food (supermarkets are a cartel who make as much as possible from everything they sell). They pay over the odds for everything (gas/electric meters are even dearer than standard d/d bills), bank charges, as they're never permitted overdrafts or loans, payg phone instead of contracts. They don't have very much coming in either.
And heaven help anyone who has the temerity to want to smoke or get sky TV or use broadband or have a nice TV to watch, eh?
When it comes down to it, for whatever reason, there are more people then there are jobs. A huge proportion of what jobs there are are crap ones and/or are very lowly paid. But don't let that stop politicians telling us (from their positions of wealth and comfort and creaming off the state) that we should "go and get a job".
I doubt very much that most people who use Wonga do so because it means they can spend more.
The "kind of people who get in trouble" are the ones the govt keep telling potential voters are the majority of the feckless scrounging types. Whereas in reality most poor people simply don't have income to support the current extreme cost of living.
And heaven help anyone who has the temerity to want to smoke or get sky TV or use broadband or have a nice TV to watch, eh?
When it comes down to it, for whatever reason, there are more people then there are jobs. A huge proportion of what jobs there are are crap ones and/or are very lowly paid. But don't let that stop politicians telling us (from their positions of wealth and comfort and creaming off the state) that we should "go and get a job".
I doubt very much that most people who use Wonga do so because it means they can spend more.
The "kind of people who get in trouble" are the ones the govt keep telling potential voters are the majority of the feckless scrounging types. Whereas in reality most poor people simply don't have income to support the current extreme cost of living.
Even the council buildings have workzones, all brought about by gov't - I'm pretty certain - to put pressure on those claiming housing benefit.If you are in low-paid employment, the emphasis is on 'further help,' see a careers officer, update your c v, get better qualifications, almost doing exactly the same stuff as job centres, but still putting extra pressure on the likes of low earning self employed etc. and always, somewhere down the line, that chance of losing your housing benefit should you not cooperate. Why else would they start this crap up in councils? surely they don't actually think we're going to believe theyre there to help us?
Regarding food banks...
The Trussell Trust run most food banks. Their chairman is a member of the board of the Shaftsbury Partnership whos board also comprises of:
Patrick Shine: He has extensive experience in financial markets , social entrepreneurship and social investment. Prior to co-founding The Shaftesbury Partnership, he worked for nearly 20 years in the City, specialising in global fixed income and derivatives, and was a director of Lazard Brothers Asset Management.
Anoop Maini: Anoop’s senior level experience across sectors includes planning social enterprise programmes with board members of the Home Office, working at Goldman Sachs, and leading development of commercial strategy, investor engagement and sales for an international media company across the US and Europe.
Tom Rippin: Tom joined McKinsey & Company working across the private, public and non-profit sectors. Five years later, he became first the advisor on private sector matters to the CEO of Comic Relief and then the MD of (RED) Europe and Business Development Director of (RED) International, the business founded by Bono and Bobby Shriver to help eliminate AIDS in Africa.
The Trussell Trust run most food banks. Their chairman is a member of the board of the Shaftsbury Partnership whos board also comprises of:
Patrick Shine: He has extensive experience in financial markets , social entrepreneurship and social investment. Prior to co-founding The Shaftesbury Partnership, he worked for nearly 20 years in the City, specialising in global fixed income and derivatives, and was a director of Lazard Brothers Asset Management.
Anoop Maini: Anoop’s senior level experience across sectors includes planning social enterprise programmes with board members of the Home Office, working at Goldman Sachs, and leading development of commercial strategy, investor engagement and sales for an international media company across the US and Europe.
Tom Rippin: Tom joined McKinsey & Company working across the private, public and non-profit sectors. Five years later, he became first the advisor on private sector matters to the CEO of Comic Relief and then the MD of (RED) Europe and Business Development Director of (RED) International, the business founded by Bono and Bobby Shriver to help eliminate AIDS in Africa.
The fact that there are actually ARE fecking food banks in this country is almost unbelievable, it's getting worse by the week, even if you somehow manage to get a job, you are virtually no better off because you'll be paying full rent, council tax, no more benefits, yet youre fully expected to take the minimum wage. Horseshit.
The need for more and more profit (rather than just a good income), especially by the larger corporations, mean the constant need to cut the bottom line of their wage bills.
For over 30 years people have received percentage increases on their salaries by way of yearly pay rises. A form of compound interest, so now the difference between the highest paid and those doing most of the work is massive. Top jobs now command salaries well into 6 figures, politicians earn money and expenses way beyond what's needed to live. Yet all these people want the minimum wage to be low to; a, protect their profits, and b, because they don't give a flying feck about the people they don't have to mix with.
I remember a passing comment a few years ago from Peter Alliss when he was commentating on the open....
"See all those people milling around? It's like the poor, always in the way when you don't need them".
For over 30 years people have received percentage increases on their salaries by way of yearly pay rises. A form of compound interest, so now the difference between the highest paid and those doing most of the work is massive. Top jobs now command salaries well into 6 figures, politicians earn money and expenses way beyond what's needed to live. Yet all these people want the minimum wage to be low to; a, protect their profits, and b, because they don't give a flying feck about the people they don't have to mix with.
I remember a passing comment a few years ago from Peter Alliss when he was commentating on the open....
"See all those people milling around? It's like the poor, always in the way when you don't need them".
Yes, wages are far too low. The taxpayer is subsidising large corporations in the form of tax credits and other such nonsense. Why should the public top up wages through their own taxes. If these companies can't be competitive without paying a proper wage then they shouldn't be in business! It makes me laugh when people moan about Capitalism. It's not capitalism if these companies are being propped up by the taxpayer!
if this government get in for another term then expect major hardship unless you are in the small percentage who have plenty , problem is the tory voter will vote and the average working man who is being fecked left right and centre will just say something along the lines of these partys are all the same ,and my vote wont make a difference so wont bother !
if this government get in for another term then expect major hardship unless you are in the small percentage who have plenty , problem is the tory voter will vote and the average working man who is being fecked left right and centre will just say something along the lines of these partys are all the same ,and my vote wont make a difference so wont bother !
I reckon the Tories get most of their votes from people who think being Tory makes them of higher standing.
^
Yes !! If you mean telling it how it really is - she always will, and good on her. Not many are telling the truth on what's actually happening in this country and what additional screws the Tories have yet to turn !!
Yes !! If you mean telling it how it really is - she always will, and good on her. Not many are telling the truth on what's actually happening in this country and what additional screws the Tories have yet to turn !!
I think the Labour Party are stating that they will not allow a referendum on EU membership in the next parliament if elected, this maybe a big tactical error going into the next General Election as I believe people are wanting this vote about Europe.
The Tories are the only party likely to be able to deliver a vote in the next parliament on European participation, this may be a big winner for them and may leave the Labour party in opposition for another 5 years.
The Tories are the only party likely to be able to deliver a vote in the next parliament on European participation, this may be a big winner for them and may leave the Labour party in opposition for another 5 years.
£94bn is spent on welfare for those of working age.
Would Labour increase this?? Is that the way to go?
We're already living in the most socialist times I can recall. Tax credits subsidising big companies for example. Why would a company give a pay increase when the govt with a Tory PM tops up the employee's money via benefits??
The Foodbank thing baffles me. It surely must be down to shocking housekeeping by most of those who use them.
Where are the families and friends of these people in need??? Why should the govt with it's £94bn handout scheme be blamed!??
I come back to my rice buying. I get it in bulk. £14.99 for 10kg.
Works out at LESS than 20p a portion. TWENTY PENCE.
Do those who use foodbanks have any measure in place whatsoever for a crisis? Any stocks of dried food for example? I fear not and I fear a malaise among people not to take responsibility and not to look to family and friends.
Of course there are genuine cases but 1m people using foodbanks. Really??
Would Labour increase this?? Is that the way to go?
We're already living in the most socialist times I can recall. Tax credits subsidising big companies for example. Why would a company give a pay increase when the govt with a Tory PM tops up the employee's money via benefits??
The Foodbank thing baffles me. It surely must be down to shocking housekeeping by most of those who use them.
Where are the families and friends of these people in need??? Why should the govt with it's £94bn handout scheme be blamed!??
I come back to my rice buying. I get it in bulk. £14.99 for 10kg.
Works out at LESS than 20p a portion. TWENTY PENCE.
Do those who use foodbanks have any measure in place whatsoever for a crisis? Any stocks of dried food for example? I fear not and I fear a malaise among people not to take responsibility and not to look to family and friends.
Of course there are genuine cases but 1m people using foodbanks. Really??
Apologies Barry - you already made the point about tax credits...
people in need cannot afford to buy in bulk. The shocking housekeeping is only partly true. the fact is, an enormous percentage of ordinary people are finding it increasingly difficult to make ends meet while they watch all the big corps increase profits. I honestly cannot understand how this isn't obvious to everyone, even some die-hard tories know it and I doubt many of them will be voting for that disgraceful party again.Well, at least not the humanitarian ones. I think the tories will be smashed in the election even if a high proportion of the working classes don't bother voting, and let's face it you can't blame them.
So how much should the welfare bill be Tony?
This Tory PM is borrowing £110bn this year to pay for the public sector. How much will Milliband borrow?
Many of those who use foodbanks are in between job and benefits. So they had some dosh and now they don't. Why don't they stock up when they have a job and some money?
25kg of potatoes costs about £7 or less. Rice as I've said costs 20p a portion.
This Tory PM is borrowing £110bn this year to pay for the public sector. How much will Milliband borrow?
Many of those who use foodbanks are in between job and benefits. So they had some dosh and now they don't. Why don't they stock up when they have a job and some money?
25kg of potatoes costs about £7 or less. Rice as I've said costs 20p a portion.
I come back to my rice buying. I get it in bulk. £14.99 for 10kg.
That's fine if you can afford to spend £14.99 for one item - have you by any chance ever heard the term "cashflow"?
That's fine if you can afford to spend £14.99 for one item - have you by any chance ever heard the term "cashflow"?
A million people using foodbanks in this country is an absolute disgrace ,hard to believe ,not everyone wants to live on rice IMVHO 20p a portion pmsfl 
where are we living in the
outbacks of Somalia That such a large number of people
are using foodbanks should be an embarrassment to any government
yet alone a western government ...
where are we living in the outbacks of Somalia
That such a large number of people are using foodbanks should be an embarrassment to any government
yet alone a western government ...
So let's assume poor people can afford to buy in bulk (they can't, btw) - they then have the issues of shelf life and storage space, which they may well be short of if they've traded down their space due to the "bedroom tax", plus they have to transport their bulk purchases home, without a car...
and potatoes rot why would anyone in their right mind by 25 kg of potatoes ?
By the way, Injera, does the 20p/portion include the cost of cooking?
Are you related to George Osborne Injera ?
or are you a potatoe farmer
or are you a potatoe farmer
can you imagine trails of people leaving supermarkets carrying
sacks of rice and potatoes on their backs along the street ,u cannot make it
up
sacks of rice and potatoes on their backs along the street ,u cannot make it
up
Labour voted for a welfare cap a few weeks ago.
That means that they'll be in trouble straight away if they get elected, because they've said they're going to scrap the spare bedroom tax.
So what are they going to cut to make up the shortfall?
That means that they'll be in trouble straight away if they get elected, because they've said they're going to scrap the spare bedroom tax.
So what are they going to cut to make up the shortfall?
The only people benefiting from these back to work schemes are the companies running them ,as for the bedroom tax ,start the number of bedrooms at 5 and treble it ,Im sure these people living in mansions can afford it ...
Cost of cooking - less than 10p.
Are you lot for real?
Tell me, are you suggesting those who use foodbanks have never had £15 in the past year to stock up??
Again, £94bn from private sector taxes GIVEN to govt to pay for welfare handouts.
£110bn in debt overspend on the public sector. Under a TORY PM.
What would you Labour luvvuies liek to happen?? How much would Balls borrow?
Are you lot for real?
Tell me, are you suggesting those who use foodbanks have never had £15 in the past year to stock up??
Again, £94bn from private sector taxes GIVEN to govt to pay for welfare handouts.
£110bn in debt overspend on the public sector. Under a TORY PM.
What would you Labour luvvuies liek to happen?? How much would Balls borrow?
Sally - you suggest the potatoes may rot.... Do you not realise these people are hungry???
Good grief...
Good grief...
last year my missus used to spend £120 per week on the supermarket shopping ,she now goes fortnightly and spends roughly £150 also saving on petrol, addmitedly she is more selective now and looks for the bogofs and special offers but shopping every 2 weeks rather than weekly can save you a good whack !
think that " money savingtfred" should be revived or a new one created !
Facts - the labour govnmt ran this country into the ground , always do, spend spend spend, no idea what they are doing . Conservatives now sorting it out and doing a great job - let's hope labour don;t get in for a long time !!!
If lab had got in at the last election , we'd be bankrupt and bno plan to get us out , high unemployment and inflation raging - and that's just for starters !
If lab had got in at the last election , we'd be bankrupt and bno plan to get us out , high unemployment and inflation raging - and that's just for starters !
If labour had won the last election they'd have cut the same as the Tories have. Don't believe the politics from Balls.
Labour voted for the welfare cap I mentioned earlier. So unless they go back on that there'll be no spending spree if labour get elected. They're committed to continuing the cuts.
Interest rates are due to rise immediately after the election as well.
Labour voted for the welfare cap I mentioned earlier. So unless they go back on that there'll be no spending spree if labour get elected. They're committed to continuing the cuts.
Interest rates are due to rise immediately after the election as well.
Conservatives now sorting it out and doing a great job
Millions living in poverty ,millions more on the brink ,yes they are doing a fine Job
Millions living in poverty ,millions more on the brink ,yes they are doing a fine Job
Same old people on here turning everything into a "Yes, but labour are crap etc etc blah blah blah"
injera:
£94bn is spent on welfare for those of working age.
Presumably this includes rebates for wealthy people for child care, and child allowance, and some welfare for SOME of those in need - Although it would seem you'd like to stop anyone who's poor getting any help unless they unblock your drains for you.
Would Labour increase this?? Is that the way to go?
Possibly - They're not much better than the current selfish half-wits who pillage so much from us.
We're already living in the most socialist times I can recall.
You obviously don't go very far back, either that or you have memory issues.
Tax credits subsidising big companies for example. Why would a company give a pay increase when the govt with a Tory PM tops up the employee's money via benefits??
The same companies who bank offshore and pay a fraction of the tax they should? The same companies who use what should be spent on tax to expand, squeeze out opposition and take fortunes from the economy. The same big companies that take advantage of free labour provided by the current 'workhouse ethic'?
The Foodbank thing baffles me. It surely must be down to shocking housekeeping by most of those who use them.
Or, it could be that you just don't know and cannot empathise with the poor sods degraded enough to have to use them.
A bit "let them eat cake" from you there.
Where are the families and friends of these people in need??? Why should the govt with it's £94bn handout scheme be blamed!??
Not everyone is like you. Not everyone has friends and family who can help.
I come back to my rice buying. I get it in bulk. £14.99 for 10kg.
Do you eat rice on its own, or do you have anything with it.
Works out at LESS than 20p a portion. TWENTY PENCE.
Ok, "let them eat rice" then
Do those who use foodbanks have any measure in place whatsoever for a crisis? Any stocks of dried food for example? I fear not and I fear a malaise among people not to take responsibility and not to look to family and friends.
Yes people LOVE using foodbanks. They're not embarrassing at all.
Of course there are genuine cases but 1m people using foodbanks. Really??
Yes, really.
I have seldom seen such pompous, holier than thou pontificating.
Are you a Tory MP, or merely someone who's as out of touch and selfish as one?
injera:
£94bn is spent on welfare for those of working age.
Presumably this includes rebates for wealthy people for child care, and child allowance, and some welfare for SOME of those in need - Although it would seem you'd like to stop anyone who's poor getting any help unless they unblock your drains for you.
Would Labour increase this?? Is that the way to go?
Possibly - They're not much better than the current selfish half-wits who pillage so much from us.
We're already living in the most socialist times I can recall.
You obviously don't go very far back, either that or you have memory issues.
Tax credits subsidising big companies for example. Why would a company give a pay increase when the govt with a Tory PM tops up the employee's money via benefits??
The same companies who bank offshore and pay a fraction of the tax they should? The same companies who use what should be spent on tax to expand, squeeze out opposition and take fortunes from the economy. The same big companies that take advantage of free labour provided by the current 'workhouse ethic'?
The Foodbank thing baffles me. It surely must be down to shocking housekeeping by most of those who use them.
Or, it could be that you just don't know and cannot empathise with the poor sods degraded enough to have to use them.
A bit "let them eat cake" from you there.
Where are the families and friends of these people in need??? Why should the govt with it's £94bn handout scheme be blamed!??
Not everyone is like you. Not everyone has friends and family who can help.
I come back to my rice buying. I get it in bulk. £14.99 for 10kg.
Do you eat rice on its own, or do you have anything with it.
Works out at LESS than 20p a portion. TWENTY PENCE.
Ok, "let them eat rice" then
Do those who use foodbanks have any measure in place whatsoever for a crisis? Any stocks of dried food for example? I fear not and I fear a malaise among people not to take responsibility and not to look to family and friends.
Yes people LOVE using foodbanks. They're not embarrassing at all.
Of course there are genuine cases but 1m people using foodbanks. Really??
Yes, really.
I have seldom seen such pompous, holier than thou pontificating.
Are you a Tory MP, or merely someone who's as out of touch and selfish as one?
Labour criticized the cons plans in place now - they wouldn't work , - Lord only knows therefore, what they would have done and what they will [put in place if they get in .
No Sally labour were running this country into the ground with no direction before the election - heaven help us!!
No Sally labour were running this country into the ground with no direction before the election - heaven help us!!
fronter;
The country is fecked because of what's been done to it since 1979. Privatisation has buggered us all and it's made worse by the privatised companies being sold to foreign Nationalsed companies!!! The constant cuts to Health and education, year on year so there's a fraction left of what was there to start with.
The constant marketing, need for profit growth and help for the wealthiest has completely fuucked 95% of us.
If anyone ever starts to realise it, the government (which is comprised of absolutely no-one who has to suffer) will spread bullplop propaganda telling us how we can't afford things and difficult decisions need to be made, whilst themselves living in consummate luxury and whilst wasting billions on our behalf.
Labour were no better than what came before, because they continued what was started andbecause they were led by a closet Tory.
There is no political party which will solve our problems, they're all cunnts. The Tories are just worse and more corrupt than the others, and they always have been. They have always been the wealthiest (not pseudo well-off like the twunts who sing their praises so vehemently), warmongering, out of touch, self-centred of all governments going back to the time of Robert Walpole, they will never be any different.
The country is fecked because of what's been done to it since 1979. Privatisation has buggered us all and it's made worse by the privatised companies being sold to foreign Nationalsed companies!!! The constant cuts to Health and education, year on year so there's a fraction left of what was there to start with.
The constant marketing, need for profit growth and help for the wealthiest has completely fuucked 95% of us.
If anyone ever starts to realise it, the government (which is comprised of absolutely no-one who has to suffer) will spread bullplop propaganda telling us how we can't afford things and difficult decisions need to be made, whilst themselves living in consummate luxury and whilst wasting billions on our behalf.
Labour were no better than what came before, because they continued what was started andbecause they were led by a closet Tory.
There is no political party which will solve our problems, they're all cunnts. The Tories are just worse and more corrupt than the others, and they always have been. They have always been the wealthiest (not pseudo well-off like the twunts who sing their praises so vehemently), warmongering, out of touch, self-centred of all governments going back to the time of Robert Walpole, they will never be any different.
Food banks?
Free food on top of benefits, of course people will use them.
They turn up in their cars for the free nosh.
Free food on top of benefits, of course people will use them.
They turn up in their cars for the free nosh.
Well done STUDYFORM.
There's some unbelievable posts on here !
There's some unbelievable posts on here !
You all live in a bubble I'm afraid - have a look around !!
I wish I did live in a bubble, it'd be a good deal better the society I do find myself in...
Having looked around.
Having looked around.
Study - Don't disagree some are having it hard , all govmnts basically look after their own and feed us 'bits' , however the majority are seeing improvement at the moment , though I'll grant you not there yet!
I'm not sure I'd agree it's the majority. Some might be seeing slight improvement, but for the least well off there would need to be a massive improvement in income.
For the Majority I would suggest there's no discernible difference except their house might be worth a bit more, which doesn't really help anyone much, apart from banks and building societies.
For the Majority I would suggest there's no discernible difference except their house might be worth a bit more, which doesn't really help anyone much, apart from banks and building societies.
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/may/19/guardian-not-fit-to-join-press-regulator-says-civil-servant
This caseby character does seem vile to me. But really the guardian do need to be whiter than white or their criticism of others will smack of hypocrisy. Polly Toynbee will distort and manipulate statistics with the best of them, looks like she really took the p1ss this time thouh. About time she got the spanish archer.
This caseby character does seem vile to me. But really the guardian do need to be whiter than white or their criticism of others will smack of hypocrisy. Polly Toynbee will distort and manipulate statistics with the best of them, looks like she really took the p1ss this time thouh. About time she got the spanish archer.
She may have made some bona fide errors rob, but I'm not sure she is quite such a cynical manipulator of statistics as you would have us believe.
Unlike the DWP:
http://tiny.cc/gvj8fx
Unlike the DWP:
http://tiny.cc/gvj8fx
I doubt if food has ever been cheaper in real terms. Just look at the price of the food that is on offer at FarmFoods, Iceland and the basics range at Tesco etc. The poundland and B & M Bargains shops also stock food at very, very low prices. Add that to the food on the food in all supermarkets in the bargain, sell by date up areas and there are few excuses for not having money for food.
No money for food is a symptom of other things. Whether it is pay day loans, disorganised lifestyles, lack of planning, drug, alcohol and tobacco dependency, lack of cooking knowhow, care in the community, fecklessness, mental health issues, inability to budget, lack of family support, lack of social services support, the entire benefits system, lack of personal responsibility, acquiescence to the capitalist world of advertising and marketing where we are told what is important is... smart phones, sky, internet, brand name clothes etc. And many of those have underlying causes that should ideally be tackled…..
As is very often the case, the symptom is being treated as it is much easier to do than treat the cause.
No money for food is a symptom of other things. Whether it is pay day loans, disorganised lifestyles, lack of planning, drug, alcohol and tobacco dependency, lack of cooking knowhow, care in the community, fecklessness, mental health issues, inability to budget, lack of family support, lack of social services support, the entire benefits system, lack of personal responsibility, acquiescence to the capitalist world of advertising and marketing where we are told what is important is... smart phones, sky, internet, brand name clothes etc. And many of those have underlying causes that should ideally be tackled…..
As is very often the case, the symptom is being treated as it is much easier to do than treat the cause.
This country is in recession and the entire world is in recession because of the Credit Crunch
Unfortunately this is near impossible to recover from. Every time governments and firms go on an austerity drive
more people end up out of work, so less money to spend, this is no good for business, so more people get laid off
we are in a cycle of contraction
Keynesian Economics got us out of the 1929 Wall Street crash, buy now - pay later. Unfortunately Keynesian economics
got us into this mess...plenty of buy now, not a lot of paying later. Our debts are already too high.
Another thing where is everything made now, not here, but in the Far East or Germany...if this country wants to get
rich it must compete better.
I believe we must control our population now, we cannot just go on increasing it anymore
We must cut our coat to suit our cloth
All the Tories have done is to lay off public service workers reduce the welfare bill and blame the victims of the recession.
There is, and was only one way out...copy Germany..but we will never do it, we are too divisive as a society.
I see little hope for us.
Most businesses work on very tight profit margins now, scarcely any at all.
Unfortunately this is near impossible to recover from. Every time governments and firms go on an austerity drive
more people end up out of work, so less money to spend, this is no good for business, so more people get laid off
we are in a cycle of contraction
Keynesian Economics got us out of the 1929 Wall Street crash, buy now - pay later. Unfortunately Keynesian economics
got us into this mess...plenty of buy now, not a lot of paying later. Our debts are already too high.
Another thing where is everything made now, not here, but in the Far East or Germany...if this country wants to get
rich it must compete better.
I believe we must control our population now, we cannot just go on increasing it anymore
We must cut our coat to suit our cloth
All the Tories have done is to lay off public service workers reduce the welfare bill and blame the victims of the recession.
There is, and was only one way out...copy Germany..but we will never do it, we are too divisive as a society.
I see little hope for us.
Most businesses work on very tight profit margins now, scarcely any at all.
Can someone tell me the real average wage in the UK?
Its always seem to be quoted around £28k but considering the amount of people in low paid employment (Supermarkets) I can't beleive it
Its always seem to be quoted around £28k but considering the amount of people in low paid employment (Supermarkets) I can't beleive it
there are also plenty of high earners, e.g. bankers, footballers who are on several million p.a., which is well over the average
It would have been interesting if labour had won the last election to see how they would have tackled the deficit.
Nevertheless the country thought that putting Labour in charge was too much of a risk given their record of tax borrow and spend.
So the country fell back on the Tories to put things right as they usually do.
Tribal Labour supporters please take note.
Nevertheless the country thought that putting Labour in charge was too much of a risk given their record of tax borrow and spend.
So the country fell back on the Tories to put things right as they usually do.
Tribal Labour supporters please take note.
When 11,000,000,000,000 dollars has been stolen in America alone through control fraud in the banking sector then thats going to cause one hell of a hole within a finite economy.
Everything else is simply fiddling while Rome burns.
Its immaterial what this government says its doing, or for that matter what the last government did in continuing the fraud, the buck lies with the deregulation double act of reagan and thatcher in the race to the bottom.
No prosecutions nor reform either so the cancer is still there.
https://www.ted.com/talks/william_black_how_to_rob_a_bank_from_the_inside_that_is
Everything else is simply fiddling while Rome burns.
Its immaterial what this government says its doing, or for that matter what the last government did in continuing the fraud, the buck lies with the deregulation double act of reagan and thatcher in the race to the bottom.
No prosecutions nor reform either so the cancer is still there.
https://www.ted.com/talks/william_black_how_to_rob_a_bank_from_the_inside_that_is
MisterBadger 22 May 14 15:20
there are also plenty of high earners, e.g. bankers, footballers who are on several million p.a., which is well over the average
So is the £28k figure just a basic mean average? (and then completely pointless)
there are also plenty of high earners, e.g. bankers, footballers who are on several million p.a., which is well over the average
So is the £28k figure just a basic mean average? (and then completely pointless)
as I understand it, yes
I think it also includes only those in full time work, so yes, essentially meaningless
I think it also includes only those in full time work, so yes, essentially meaningless
I think it was 24k a few years ago, but that I believe is the number that represents the equal number of people earning earning more than that to the number earning less.
The mean I seem to recall was actually around 16-18
Or it might have been the other way around
The mean I seem to recall was actually around 16-18
Or it might have been the other way around
MisterBadger
22 May 14 15:20
there are also plenty of high earners, e.g. bankers, footballers who are on several million p.a., which is well over the average
I beg to differ.
Nobody EARNS £1,000,000 + year.
And getting paid megabucks for kicking a ball round with 21 other nancy boys for 90 minutes a week is ludicrous.
22 May 14 15:20
there are also plenty of high earners, e.g. bankers, footballers who are on several million p.a., which is well over the average
I beg to differ.
Nobody EARNS £1,000,000 + year.
And getting paid megabucks for kicking a ball round with 21 other nancy boys for 90 minutes a week is ludicrous.
I agree, I was using the term loosely... and it's worse than ludicrous, it's frankly obscene imo
The fans fund the footballers wages. They are the ones to blame. Good luck to the footballers, at least it is a meritocracy.
Bankers are a different matter altogether. We cant functionwithout banks so need to use them. And it isnt a meritocracy, more of an old boys club.
Bankers are a different matter altogether. We cant functionwithout banks so need to use them. And it isnt a meritocracy, more of an old boys club.
sky tv money also funds footballers' wages, they are mainly the ones to blame.
People that pay for aky sports are to blame also i agree.
I feel sorry for the genuinely unemployed looking for work. There are very few decent jobs out there.
These schemes for getting back to work are just a way of massaging the figures - if you are on a scheme you are not counted as unemployed - and 100's of 1000's are on schemes at any one time.
Labour did this for years with the 'New Deal'. Tories have taken it to the next level
These schemes for getting back to work are just a way of massaging the figures - if you are on a scheme you are not counted as unemployed - and 100's of 1000's are on schemes at any one time.
Labour did this for years with the 'New Deal'. Tories have taken it to the next level
We do not have the grinding poverty we had in the 1930s...a lot of that is because
our goods and services are much better...the triumph of capitalism
I still fail to see how anyone can live a life of indolent luxury on £70 a week our government claims
the truth there is no work...we are still in recession
our goods and services are much better...the triumph of capitalism
I still fail to see how anyone can live a life of indolent luxury on £70 a week our government claims
the truth there is no work...we are still in recession
Tories believe the only way the rich can work is by giving them more money...cut taxes
but the only way the poor can work is by giving them less money, so cut benefits
but the only way the poor can work is by giving them less money, so cut benefits
I don't mind the Tories winning the next general election as Cameron has promised to protect old age pensions
but from a moral point of view, I will vote Labour
Apart from their promise to cut immigration UKIP are even more right ring than the Tories
so I don't see how they can ever attract the socialist voter, all their votes must come from the Tories
but from a moral point of view, I will vote Labour
Apart from their promise to cut immigration UKIP are even more right ring than the Tories
so I don't see how they can ever attract the socialist voter, all their votes must come from the Tories
rob_dylan • May 22, 2014 8:37 PM BST
People that pay for sky sports are to blame also i agree.
How do you work that out???????????????????????????
They just like watching sport on telly that is all, they are not to blame for anything
I agree football wages are obscene, but that is not the fault of a TV viewer, footballers are paid as entertainers
People that pay for sky sports are to blame also i agree.
How do you work that out???????????????????????????
They just like watching sport on telly that is all, they are not to blame for anything
I agree football wages are obscene, but that is not the fault of a TV viewer, footballers are paid as entertainers
ebulGery
23 May 14 00:28
the truth there is no work...we are still in recession.
There is tons of work.
There has to be, because successive govts. have had to let in immigrants to do it...
23 May 14 00:28
the truth there is no work...we are still in recession.
There is tons of work.
There has to be, because successive govts. have had to let in immigrants to do it...
not near me there aint...and I live in the S.E.
immigrants undercut our workers
immigrants undercut our workers
If there is tons of work...40 hours at minimum wage, at least
how come there is 2 1/2 million unemployed??????????
how come there is 2 1/2 million unemployed??????????
There can't be 2,500,000 unemployed, or the clever chaps in Westminster wouldn't have let in so many unskilled immigrants.
ah well..nail on head taxi...they are not clever, they are stupid!
we should be grateful our voting system does not give us tyrants
but neither does our voting system give us anyone who is in the least competent enough to govern us unfortunately
we are like a blind man feeling himself along a street with lots of manholes with no covers, most of which we fall in
but neither does our voting system give us anyone who is in the least competent enough to govern us unfortunately
we are like a blind man feeling himself along a street with lots of manholes with no covers, most of which we fall in
They seem to be taking away our freedom and our land and we are letting it happen. This govt has absolutely no mandate for what its doing. There is absolutely no reason why people need to be treated so appallingly and half the point of so much technological advance was so we wouldn't have to work so many hours wasn't it? We could have a basic income for every british citizen which would cover basic living costs , no reason why not money is just numbers now and they are controlling us through it and, as always, their media power.
Both parties have done things without our knowledge and without any mandate as you say Buzzer
It has done us great harm
It has done us great harm
When did the govt last do the working class any good?
How remiss of me, I forgot that they put the Olympics in east London.
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