Cheltenham Festival
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Edwardstone left his race behind at the Cheltenham trials day at the start of the year. The jockey had his eye on Energumene in the race and let the leader go in front as he wished instead of having Edwardstone up there with him. Energumene wasn’t at the same level of preparation, far from it based on yesterdays result. The ground Edwardstone had to make up to try and win that race resulted in him being legless in the second enclosure i remember thinking is that his chance gone for March. Far from him being ‘buzzy’ i think King said and it putting him right, it totally hammered the horse.
Mullins did his owner a big favour running there and, if it was the owner with inside knowledge on the horses levels of prep, has probably massively assisted in the huge bet that was landed yesterday where the form was turned on its head.
Nicholls wouldn’t have been fooled so easily. Buzzy my @rse King was suckered in January.
Mullins did his owner a big favour running there and, if it was the owner with inside knowledge on the horses levels of prep, has probably massively assisted in the huge bet that was landed yesterday where the form was turned on its head.
Nicholls wouldn’t have been fooled so easily. Buzzy my @rse King was suckered in January.
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You may well be right that Edwardstone left his race in January, but it's hard to argue he shouldn't have run then. It was a Grade 1 race, and as the winner of the Arkle and the Tingle Creek, he should be running in Grade 1 races. Moreover, the horse has generally thrived on, and improved for, racing.
Also, from a public point of view, we want more races like the Clarence House - that is, top quality races outside the festival. The sport suffers when horses are pit away from October to March. |
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You only want to see top horses if they are primed to win. I doubt Energumene’s owner wanted him there in top form for the public to see.
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Edwardstone suffered for that. I have rarely seen a horse standing so tired after a race that definitely affected him imo.
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^^Fair points.
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alan king wasnt outwitted at all
irish horses are trained for.march and april they are at their weakest in terms of fitness earlier honeysuckle , energumene not 100% until cheltenham loads more if you go into it king took advantage of that, as does nichols |
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He didn’t he followed the wrong horse.
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Alan king werent riding was he ?
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Irish - you are right about that. Mullins and de Bromhead particularly get their horses ready for spring. The structure of the Irish season helps with that, with the Punchestown Festival being at the end of April, giving two (or three with Aintree) spring targets for the horses. In contrast, the GB season has a feeling of being mainly over after Cheltenham.
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Totally missing the point
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If it was obvious as you say that Energumene was there prepared at way below best form then King would have told the jockey to follow Editeur Du Gite and not have tons of ground to make up very late against a very good front runner in his big race on slow ground six weeks before the Champion Chase. He got to the front but was then headed again it totally knackered Edwardstone and was a totally dumb race to give him.
We have seen Shiskin similarly affected by having to make up ground late against Energumene in the Tingle Creek though he did get up he hasn’t been the same horse since that race. |
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I don't think anyone said that Energumene was way below his best, merely that he wasn't 100%. The fact that he was well beaten by Editeur du Gite tends to support that conclusion. I do agree with you that Edwardstone left his race in the CLarence House, and about Shishkin.
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The point is that Alan King didnt think it was obvious to ignore Energumene and to follow Editeur instead. It paid off Mullins running Energumene as it had Edwardstone performing to his peak so close to the Festival. Trainers do threaten to run or do run below prep horses to try and affect the peaking of their opponents. Normally it results in the said horse being withdrawn late on however on this occasion he turned up so affected Edwardstone quite badly as a result.
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if you was a trainer in the uk
and you had to compete against irish domination at cheltenham would you have your horses peaking for the festival ? it makes no fiscal sense whatsoever unless you have something extra special edwardstone has never been in that bracker for me |
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*bracket
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Irish - that is Nicholls' philosophy exactly nowadays - try to pick up the prize money elsewhere.
Eric - how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? |
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Don't want to damn the winner with faint praise because he is a complete pro who rocks up on the big day and runs his race, but for the second year running his main rival has under performed, having said that though perhaps Edwardstone has been over rated, his Arkle win looks a bit ordinary now, one way or another though the race did fall apart.
I almost feel sorry for Townend, he's got El Fabiolo looming on the horizon for this race next year, perhaps Jacob will be the big winner there. |
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strontium i think it is fair comment that King should have been a bit more savvy on tactics in a race against a main opponent turning up six weeks before the event likely to be below best. At least savvy enough to know he might be sacrificing his chances for the main event shortly.
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If Edwardstone’s owners were happy to have their horse bottomed six weeks before Cheltenham fine. I wouldn’t have been happy if i were the owner to come 2nd in a Grade 1 with Cheltenham a write off.
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Hindsight is 20/20. At the time, they had a horse who badly needed a run (according to the trainer) and had the best piece of 2 mile chase form of the season. They reasoned (based on his previous seasons) that the horse would come on for the run. It didn't work out for them. Speaking personally, I' glad they ran him in January. We got an excellent Clarence House chase out of it. Admittedly, as Duffy says, we got a poor Champion Chase for the second year running. Having seen the way things panned out, I doubt Edwardstone would have beaten Energumene last Wednesday even if he had been at his peak. All this is a shame for Energumene - he's won two Champion Chases that have fallen apart and we still don't really know how good he is.
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Yes i suppose i would have preferred to see them both at the top of their game at the Festival taking each other on. Energumene’s connections circumvented that by turning up half cooked in January and King not telling his jockey to ride the race with that in mind for whatever reason.
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The bookies would also be quite happy to see all big race favourites have an exhausting run just weeks before the race. Earlier season fine but the Championship race is at the Festival and prep runs the top trainers normally have this in mind.
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Do you think if Energumene is in tip top form they would want him to go for a third Champion Chase and step El Fabiolo up to the Ryanair?
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That might depend on how Allaho is. El Fabiolo is my idea of the winner of the 2024 champion chase at the moment.
Incidentally, I see that one firm is quoting Gallopin Des Champs at 7/1 for the Ryanair next year, ante post. They should go and take a long, hard look at themselves. |
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What do we want to happen??? Tom Cannon to reason to himself 2/3's of the way through the race in the Clarence House, I'm following the wrong horse here, EDG has got the jump on me, however at the risk of giving my horse a hard race and blowing the festival I'm going to instead let him come home in his own time and save him.
If we ever start to go down that road then the game really will be up. |
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Agree with that Duffy
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The horse is turning out to be as dodgy as Shishkin
An "on his day horse"..... Injuries emerging after its got beat. What were the excuses for coming second in three bumpers ? Always a bad sign....... Slightly hampered ? |
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“I was surprised that Edwardstone did not hit the line as hard at Cheltenham as he had done in the Tingle Creek, and, while he seemed fine afterwards, at 8 o’clock the following morning he was very lame indeed.
“Happily, it was just deep bruising and the x-rays were clear, and, though it took us most of that week to get him sound again he is fine now and we are firmly back on track.... " In other words he aint got a fecking clue whats going on with the horse |
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It may not matter going forward - the horse is 9 now, and run 24 times, so is likely regressive. Meanwhile, you've got El Fabiolo coming into the division, and possibly even Constitution Hill. Edwardstone might win another Tingle Creek, but I struggle to see him being a force in the next Champion Chase.
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The mother was a nutter and he falls into the 'i will do it when i want not when you want"w
Plenty of them about |
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That was the 1st time Edwardstone's been out of the 1st 2
on his last 10 completed starts,winning 6 of them. |
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"completed starts"
so we ignore the brought downs and the unseats to make the figured look good eh ? |
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No,your talking out your ar5e.
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No ,I am not.
Here is his record , when did he ever when a race in a big field (once.....11 !!!!!), when did belfast banter and the shunter make mincemeat of him ? The horse demonstrates the massive gulf between english and irish trainers. 15Mar23 Che 16f Soft 5y+ S(400K)11-10[15/8]sr5th of 7 28Jan23 Che 16f Soft 5y+ S(91K)11-10[5/2]2nd of 6 27Dec22 Kem 16f Soft 4y+ S(100K)11-8[2/5Fav]bf unseated 03Dec22 San 16f Good to Soft 4y+ S(175K)11-10[5/1]1st of 6 19Nov22 Asc 17f Good to Soft 4y+ HcapCh(125K)non-runner 13Nov22 Che 16f Good 4y+ S(100K)non-runner 09Apr22 Ain 16f Good to Soft 5y+ S(120K)11-4[4/7Fav]bf 2nd of 6 15Mar22 Che 16f Good to Soft 5y+ S(182K)11-4[5/2Fav]sr1st of 11 12Feb22 War 16f Good to Soft 5y+ S(52K)11-5[10/11Fav]1st of 4 27Dec21 Kem 16f Soft 4y+ S(52K)11-7[8/15Fav]1st of 4 04Dec21 San 16f Good to Soft 4y+ S(75K)11-2[3/1]1st of 7 17Nov21 War 16f Good to Soft 4y+ S(20K)11-2[4/6Fav]1st of 5 05Nov21 War 16f Good to Soft 4y+ S(16K)11-2[13/8Fav]bf brought down 09Apr21 Ain 20f Good to Soft 4y+ HcapHdl(56K)11-11[7/1]3rd of 22 19Mar21 Che 17f Good to Soft 5y+ HcapHdl(75K)11-5[18/1]5th of 25 21Feb21 New 16f Good to Soft 4y+ HcapHdl(125K)11-6(Incl 5lb penalty)[14/1]3rd of 23 16Jan21 Mar 17f Heavy 4y+ HcapHdl(15K)11-12[1/1Fav]1st of 4 29Dec20 Don 16f Heavy 4y+ HcapCh(12K)11-7[11/8Fav]bf. unseated rider 07Dec20 Plu 17f Soft 4y+ S(12K)non-runner (Self Cert (Temperature)) 15Nov20 Che 16f Soft 4y+ HcapHdl(80K)11-0[13/2]5th of 14 10Mar20 Che 16f Soft 4y+ H(125K)11-7[25/1]6th of 15 18Jan20 Hay 16f Heavy 4y+ H(30K)11-4[13/8]hd1sr2nd of 4 07Dec19 Ain 17f Soft 4y+ H(12K)11-4[6/5Fav]1st of 7 09Nov19 Win 15f Good to Soft 4-6y H(9K)10-12[6/1] 1st of 8 10Mar19 War 16f Soft 4-6y NHF(4K)11-2[3/1]2nd of 11 13Dec18 War 16f Good to Soft 4-6y NHF(4K)11-0[5/1]2nd of 14 08Nov18 New 16f Good 4-6y NHF(4K)11-0[25/1]sr2nd of 15 They are the facts, the horse runs second too often but dont put him in a big field ! Chris is a lovely fellah and a great bloke dont get me wrong but him and the Cannon aint got to the bottom of the horse after 4 years. Look at the breeding , the mare was as dodgy as feck. |
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*Alan not chris ffs
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The horse is clearly a vastly better chaser than he was hurdler, as some are. He's also been good enough to win three Grade 1 chases.
As for field sizes, that's a paper tiger - how many top level 2 m chases have big fields? Generally, they're lucky to get 6 or 7 runners, even in Ireland. It's been a weak and thin division for years. It's nonsensical to compare top level chases with handicap hurdles. |
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The point i am making is that the horse is a dodge.... a true "on his day" horse that you as a punter will have to try and work out before hand if it is going to be his day.
The fact his mother was a nutter and his results point to it but lets leave it to the trainer ... ""I don't know," was King's instant reaction. "I've never been happier with a horse coming into a race. He was beat after two [fences]. I can't blame the ground, because he's gone on that before. His preparation, I promise you, I have not missed a beat the last month to six weeks. It just wasn't him, he was never going." "I dont know"..... tells it the way it is ! "Queen Mother Champion Chase favourite Edwardstone was lame for most of last week but the issue is not a major concern for his trainer Alan King ahead of the Cheltenham Festival" 15:16, 7 FEB 2023 Alan is not predicting that history will repeat itself, but he was anything but down-hearted as he stood in the enclosure reserved for the runner-up. “However, I am pleased because I needed to get this run into him in order to have him spot on for the March meeting......" January 28th 23 King said: “I won’t go up in trip unless I have to. Let’s see what happens on Sunday, but he’s got a lot of stamina in his pedigree and he’s relaxing much better now. Deep down, I hope we don’t have to go up in trip, but he’ll tell us.... " December 22.... so the horse is calling the shots..... Last season's Arkle winner had a delayed start to the season due to the warm autumn, with planned appearances in the Shloer Chase at Cheltenham and in a handicap at Ascot scuppered due to quick ground... Eerrrmmm .....the horse has won on good to soft ! “But it has not been an easy year – we’ve never got into a total rhythm with him because of the ground and the weather, but there we are. These things happen. I’ve been at it a long time to understand nothing is straightforward" There you go .....Alan knows ! |
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Not sure I get your point, Irish.
Are you saying the horse is a dodge pot or A.King doesn't have a clue like all English trainers? Since he has gone chasing I don't think you could call him anything but consistent to be honest. |
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He is a nice geyser to be fair but the difference is an average Irish trainer will have the horse ready on the day ,the horse will be well backed and it will be on its ground and it will have the right weight on its back. It has to be like that because of the dominance of mullins and elliot which means the average trainers have to be much more savvy on where they run them and how they train them
Meanwhile Mr King gets a half decent one, has it for four years and comes out after a race and tells it the way it is,and very honestly to be fair ....."I don't know.....I've never been happier with a horse coming into a race. He was beat after two [fences]. I can't blame the ground, because he's gone on that before. His preparation, I promise you, I have not missed a beat the last month to six weeks. It just wasn't him, he was never going. " I find it hard to call 6 wins out of 11 consistent. |
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I dont know if you ever visit trainers stables Brandy, but normally in Ireland racehorses have manners put on them by the time they are three. If you get one like Edwardstone thats trying to take lumps out of you from its stable when you walk past it , that aint good mate !
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