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naraic
21 Feb 21 09:13
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Date Joined: 05 Mar 12
| Topic/replies: 65 | Blogger: naraic's blog
I'm trying to understand what they do differently and, by extension, why others don't/can't follow!

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Replies: 156
By:
irishone
When: 21 Feb 21 09:18
They are nice people !
By:
GAZO
When: 21 Feb 21 09:25
get lots of good horses
By:
Bentring
When: 21 Feb 21 11:05
Think back to the days of Martin Pipe where he was frowned upon by other English trainers.
He set the bench by getting his horses fit,checked their blood regularly etc,not just after the race when it's too late.
I'd say Gordon has learnt plenty and is getting the horse that the Pipes aren't.
Then you have Paddy Mullins father of willie who would have given his son a great knowledge that he has built on.
The question is why have the English trainers(NH excluded)lagged behind is it because mummy never gave them a clip behind the ear often enough to wake them up instead of looking at them in awe as that guy schlotter said(out little tarquin)
By:
shlotter
When: 21 Feb 21 13:50
It comes down to determination, hard work, discipline, focus and obsession.
By:
strontium
When: 21 Feb 21 14:25
They get the best bloodstock. Same reason Nicholls dominated here in the late 2000s.
By:
duffy
When: 21 Feb 21 15:00
It's a mystery for sure, I can't for the life of me figure out how Man City have shot to prominence these last 10 years
By:
Bentring
When: 21 Feb 21 16:30
So Duffy what ur saying the English bloodstock agents are paying peanuts
By:
duffy
When: 21 Feb 21 16:50
Clearly there is more depth of quality in the raw material going to Ireland for the likes of Mullins to start with.
By:
irishone
When: 21 Feb 21 16:53
Spot on Duffy
By:
Bentring
When: 21 Feb 21 18:56
Duffy and Irish one do the bloodstock agents working for them or other people that source horses from France etc play a vital role in this as I Don't know what they pay except what I've read recently about Valerie someone (Green and white chevrons red cap) do any of you know what they paid for say monkfish and Gallard de nesnil for instance thanks
By:
duffy
When: 21 Feb 21 19:04
Willie Mullins, Gigginstown House Stud and J.P. McManus' son Kieran all spent big at Thursday's Tattersalls Ireland Cheltenham May Sale, which saw 11 point-to-pointers sell for six-figure sums.

The aggregate rose 56% to £3,568,000, the median jumped 8% to £45,000 and the average made huge strides with a 41% increase to finish on £69,961. The clearance rate was 76%.

Leading the way was El Barra, a four-year-old gelding by the French-based sire Racinger consigned by Robert Tyner's stables. Placed second on his only start at Dromahane, he was knocked down to Harold Kirk and Willie Mullins for £280,000, a record price for this sale.

Kirk and Mullins were also responsible for the purchase for the next highest price lot; Monkfish, a winner at Stowlin (East Galway) in April for his handler Cormac Doyle. The Stowaway gelding is a half-brother to a dual track winner as well as being out of a daughter to the nine-time winner Martomick and was knocked down for £235,000

Run Wild Fred made his track debut a winning one and this resulted in another six-figure sum transaction. James Doyle consigned the four-year-old under his Baltimore House Stables banner and the gelding fetched £225,000. Bringing down the gavel, the auctioneer thanked Mags O'Toole and Eddie O'Leary for the purchase but the official sales results credit the buyer as Lodge BS.

Two further lots broke the £200,000 barrier; Lock's Corner, a 12 length debut winner of the four-year-old maiden at Dawstown for Colin Bowe was sold to Kieran McManus for £215,000. The Very Man was offered by Stuart Crawford's Newlands Farm after winning his four-year-old maiden at Loughanmore. The Jeremy gelding was sold to Gordon Elliott Racing for £210,000.
By:
Bentring
When: 21 Feb 21 19:15
Very interesting monkfish was cheap in comparison to what I read recently what Noel and Valerie Moran paid (researched their names)
By:
irishone
When: 21 Feb 21 20:14
Prices have gone thru the roof. I found anyone can breed one in Ireland, you have to register with Dept of Agriculture . There's great stallions all over Ireland. All you do is turn up with your mare, out pops the stallion, they put a twitcher on the mare and its over in seconds. No money changes hands until the foal is born. Ten years ago the aim was 30k runner per year,with win in a p2p , place in a p2p got yer 5 figures. Anything good Willie , Gordon or Coddys old man gets the call. Vast majority in the West go Willie. Certain families have great authority in the breeding ranks , great earner if you get one but its not like the breeders are totally dependent on the income.
By:
naraic
When: 22 Feb 21 08:12
OP here

I'm enjoying the banter and all of that BUT I'd still be unable to explain to my 11 year old son WHY Mullins and Elliott are so much better than the rest?!

Just my $0.02!
By:
irishone
When: 22 Feb 21 08:24
One of the things I think seperates them , and its only a guess,( I have only been in their company a very short while ), they can talk to millionaires and bankrupt people in exactly the same way. They seem to fit into the upper echelons as well as the lower at every track or wherever you see them. Willie is a little more personable in my experience, whether or not that comes with age I cant say.
By:
naraic
When: 22 Feb 21 09:12
Hi Irishone,

Thanks for engaging on this.

I'm not trying to be a PITA, but I'm not sure that better "people skills" is a significant part in the magic formula.

Maybe I should rephrase my question, as follows. Let's assume that they have very good raw material and generally make the most out of this material.

1. Why do they have better horses to train?

2. Why is their training methods better?

In relation to 1, for example, is it simply a combination of the right/deep pocketed owners, the right contacts and some element of a sixth sense? Anything else?

And for 2?
By:
irishone
When: 22 Feb 21 09:22
Sorry naraic when you said ordinarily in your opening post I think you hit the nail right on the head. They are very ordinary. What you see on tv is what is presented to contacts, owners and people who work for them . Some people have it some people dont.

As for training methods I cant answer that because frankly I don't know.
By:
Nogoody
When: 22 Feb 21 11:54
whilst I've met them I have never been to their yards but I'd imagine that both have unbridled ambition together with a professionalism that leaves no stone unturned, attention to detail instilled in everyone involved. There would be no sitting back drinking in past glories,their best winner is their next one. If something is not completely right, it's wrong would be a mantra , I should imagine. Nothing is perfect, in spite of habit and tradition, there will always be a learning curve and innovation.
Willie said in an interview during the year that they have a meeting at the end of every season to discuss how to improve things, included at the meeting were Ruby, Patrick, and David Casey among others, last year they changed the gallops
( that seemed to have worked ).
if you won the European Lotto and bought yourself a horse, who would you send it to.
By:
irishone
When: 22 Feb 21 12:09
Willie getting old now, leaving more and more to Patrick, but most of the above I would say is pretty close.
By:
Hibore
When: 22 Feb 21 12:45
irishone 22 Feb 21 09:24 Joined: 22 Sep 06 | Topic/replies: 45,499 | Blogger: irishone's blog
One of the things I think seperates them , and its only a guess,( I have only been in their company a very short while ), they can talk to millionaires and bankrupt people in exactly the same way. They seem to fit into the upper echelons as well as the lower at every track or wherever you see them. Willie is a little more personable in my experience, whether or not that comes with age I cant say.


This surely is a wind up ?  I’m going to have to print this off as it’s so stupid no one would believe me.
By:
Andymca
When: 22 Feb 21 13:26
Actually Hibore, I would say Irishone is spot on with this one. We Irsh tend to speak to everyone on the same level. Willy has alsawys struck me as someone who will talk to anyone, no matter their social status or standing, unlike Hederson who always gives me the inmression that he wants to bum whoever he is talking to.
By:
duffy
When: 22 Feb 21 13:38
Just watching Mullins on the tele he comes across as a very friendly courteous individual who you would enjoy listening to.

He is obviously able to couple that with a more firm side in dealing with people as evidenced to being in complete charge when it comes to race targets and his refusal to bow to O'Leary and his training fee demands
By:
Hibore
When: 22 Feb 21 13:47
Nogoody is spot on. Plenty of ar$ehole trainers that were just as successful as Mullins and Elliott.
By:
Bentring
When: 22 Feb 21 18:50
You talk utter tosh,he is spot on when it suits you and I can't buy into as good, as those that are sending to Co Meath and Co Carlow are sending nothing to nogoodys buddy's
By:
Bentring
When: 22 Feb 21 19:43
Sincerest apologies Nogoody never did you say anything about ar$ehole trainers being just as good
By:
Hibore
When: 22 Feb 21 20:14
You cant’t punctuate a sentence but your an expert on all top trainers in the last 50+ years. Impressive.
By:
vantastic54
When: 22 Feb 21 20:16
Myself and my family went to Leopardstown for my dads birthday on Hurricane flys 5th Irish champion hurdle.Spoke to Willie afterwards , couldnt have been more pleasant.Came over for a chat for ten minutes,autographs etc and got one of the Hurricanes connections to take a photo.Top man our Willie.
By:
Bentring
When: 22 Feb 21 20:19
Your issue with me stringing a sentence has nothing to do with your blinkers
By:
Hibore
When: 22 Feb 21 20:28
You are absolutely right van. I’ve met both Willie and Gordon and both are top blokes. But it’s not there personalities that get their fantastic results, it’s hard work, determination, skills training horses that have been honed over many years. They have the X factor.

There are certain top trainers in the UK that wouldn’t give you the time of day. One current one is renowned for being an Ar@e hole but gets the results so people send their 250k horses to him. No prizes guessing who he is.
By:
know all
When: 22 Feb 21 22:03
mullings is the best ive ever seen since mc pipe elliott still has a bit of catching up to do not in the same league as mulling yet but it can change but be surprised if it does just yet
By:
irishone
When: 23 Feb 21 03:53
Think you will find both those two and noel meade and adien obrien all put it down to the team they have behind them. Their person to person skills (formerly man management) are where they are ahead.
By:
irishone
When: 23 Feb 21 10:56
Made me bring back good memories this thread. Years ago july course newmarket good hour before racing started, brough scott with microphone sitting on wooden benches of paddock area waiting to interview a fellah smoking a cigarette about an hour before racing.
Lovely man , i nodded said hello and we chatted about the going , smoking and the weather.  Then I stood in the picture behind them as the camera rolled from somewhere up in the old stand and Brough introduced Henry Cecil to viewers, meant more to me to get on the box that it did to realise I had been chatting away inthepresence of a genius !.
By:
shlotter
When: 23 Feb 21 14:18
How many generations of the Mullins family...? Apples don’t far from the tree. The late great Paddy Mullins was my nanas favourite trainer, it’s the little things that get past down.
By:
Autocue
When: 23 Feb 21 19:42
Trainers like Hobbs, Twiston-Davies, Tizzard seem to go through very lean periods put down to horses being wrong, virus etc. I can't remember a similar thing happening at Closutton in 20 years.
By:
Cash Is King
When: 24 Feb 21 00:29
Top British trainers are creatures of habit.

Willie Mullins is not.

Mullins and Elliott are constantly innovating and seeking out marginal gains. The only “top” British trainer who’s striving for an edge is Skelton. He’s starting to handle better horses and it’s just a matter of time before he’s top British trainer. (Henderson is getting on in years and Nicholls is too easily distracted by his love life.)
By:
buddeliea
When: 24 Feb 21 15:49
I would agree that Skelton at some point will be too trainer, but I don’t think he will get near Hendo for Cheltenham winners
By:
buddeliea
When: 24 Feb 21 15:49
Top !!
By:
TheAnorak
When: 26 Feb 21 15:28
To offer an answer to the OP, I'd say that the secret, insofar as there is one, is that half the horses they buy, you never see again. Only the ones that they feel can make the grade, ever get to run on the course.

And they can buy lots of horses and have a 50% reject rate, because the owners they are buying for (or were in the case of O'Leary) can afford to write off millions in purchase price and training fees as pocket change.

The 'half' is just an example, the real figure might be higher or lower - we'll never know for sure as we can't know about the horses that never race. But I did track the list of horses that Mullins (via his agent) bought at a Newmarket Autumn sale a few years back, when he spent well over a million quid, and about half of those never reappeared.

I should add that I'm not arguing this approach is in any way wrong, and I'm pretty sure the likes of Godolphin, Gosden, Stoute etc, operate just the same on the flat. After all, Tiger Roll started life with Godolphin, but never ran on the flat before being sold!
By:
naraic
When: 26 Feb 21 19:13
Thanks Anorak

OP here. I'm awarding you "best answer" (......took early command, extended lead 3 out, eased down final furlong, impressive)
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