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Cash Is King
13 Mar 19 22:02
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Date Joined: 21 Apr 09
| Topic/replies: 1,339 | Blogger: Cash Is King's blog
Henderson, Nicholls and Skelton been doing the heavy lifting for the Brits to date. Hopefully one of the other so called “big guns” will do their bit tomorrow.
Pause Switch to Standard View A King, D Pipe, P Hobbs, C Tizzard et...
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Report northanlite March 13, 2019 10:40 PM GMT
Hobbs have been running ok, King not had many but his nags in decent form in general.
Tizzard not so much
Report irishone March 14, 2019 11:11 AM GMT
Getting thar r s ed fcking tanned
Report Cash Is King March 14, 2019 1:42 PM GMT
Well done Philip Hobbs. About time to.
Report sageform March 14, 2019 4:03 PM GMT
With Tizzard second.
Report Catch Me ifyoucan March 15, 2019 10:56 PM GMT
Cash Is King 02 Mar 18 14:09
Four second tier yards that are in shocking form. I wonder how many Festival runners with realistic win/place prospects they'll must between them this year?
JONJO, VENETIA, HOBBS AND PIPE

Can't Catch Me • March 2, 2018 3:12 PM GMT
Hobbsy has turned the corner imo. Back in ok nick... Jonjo very rarely any different until spring.

Cash Is King • March 2, 2018 3:22 PM GMT
I'm not convinced that Hobbs has turned the corner but time will tell. Two of his likely runners that I'm interested in are No Comment (but not necessarily in the 4 miler where his profile doesn't sit well with me) and Crooks Peak as an each way interest in the Bumper.

Can't Catch Me • March 2, 2018 3:49 PM GMT
Yeah I have them both backed ew too. Degsy will be a huge boost for NC.

geoff m • March 3, 2018 12:35 PM GMT
2 winners between em imo. From probably 60 odd runners as a guess

Cash Is King • March 15, 2018 11:50 AM GMT
Add Nicholls to this sorry list. Henderson must feel desperate trying to keep the Irish hordes at bay and having only Tom George, Nick Williams & Mick Channon offering meaningful support. Day 3 and hopefully at least one of these outfits will turn up and add a notch to their Festival belt.

buddeliea • March 16, 2018 6:06 AM GMT
2 years on the trot....mullins and elliot. So is it worth me trawling through all the form next year?

unclepuncle • March 16, 2018 10:28 AM GMT
King and Tizzard haven't exactly done much either and outside of Henderson arguably have the best quality horses in the UK.
Basically Mullins, Elliot and Henderson are just better trainers.
Report Cash Is King March 11, 2020 7:35 PM GMT
Ditto Cheltenham 2020.

Thank heavens for David Bridgwater flying the flag for Team GB.
Report impossible123 March 11, 2020 7:39 PM GMT
The might of Closutton is only slightly better despite their firepower and resources.
Report Cash Is King March 11, 2020 10:56 PM GMT
In a perfect world Skelton will win one of a) the Plate, b) the Kim Muir or c) the M Pipe. I’m hoping Jonjo will win the Pertemps and King might win the Plate and/or the Grand Annual.

That just leaves Hobbs to land a 4 timer on Friday.

Wishful thinking? Remember, it was predicted here first!!!!

Let’s hope one of them delivers.
Report Somerset Sam March 13, 2020 3:12 PM GMT
It's been said on here for a while but David Pipe doesn't half have his share of absolute dogs. Ears back from the start, headgear, you know the type.

He gets financial backing from his main owners and yet still v few horses of note. His dad must've been a genius.
Report Cash Is King March 13, 2020 10:56 PM GMT
As it turned out none of them delivered. Who’d have guessed it?

4 wins for Henderson on days 1 & 2 and 1 win each for a rag bag of a supporting cast including Nicholls.

Plus ca change.
Report impossible123 March 13, 2020 11:42 PM GMT
Tizzard: "A few had dirty noses at home..."
Report irishone March 14, 2020 7:51 AM GMT
Henderson only got the fire power because j p recognises he's half decent , willie and gordon are miles ahead of the game and mines got a regular occurance of a dirty nose today fyi
Report buddeliea March 15, 2020 7:36 AM GMT
I still think if the likes of Hendo, Nicholls,King and Hobbs had a horse good enough,they would not stop it from realising its potential.
If an experienced trainer has a good one they would know what to do.
Take Gary Moore,he don't get many top ones,but when he gets one they tend to do well.
He certainly got the best out of SDG a few years back,and Goshen was hacking up the other day,and will be a Champion Hurdle main contender.

Mullins and Elliott are ahead though...…...no doubt.
Report irishone March 31, 2020 9:01 AM BST
Difference is mullins elliot know how to step them up from the irish plumptons and fontwells. Gary has had only one in my memory, question is how many good ones has he had, that he has fecked up ?he had 18% strike rate five years ago, his highest ever,willie bangs in over twenty per cent year in year out and steps them up at the highest level. Gary is happy pottering down the road to fontwell or plumpton , rarely steps up on the big stage.
Report FOYLESWAR March 31, 2020 9:44 AM BST
basically mullins elliott and hendo are better trainers ,i would add nicholls and  bromhead  to that list , and they are the 5 who if i was considering backing one ante post these 5 wouldnt give me the slightest concern of having one 100% ready and able on the day at the festival ,and any of these 5 would be a positive .
Report GAZO March 31, 2020 10:03 AM BST
rebecca curtis has probally got a decent strike rate at the festival considering how many horses she has
Report irishone March 31, 2020 10:30 AM BST
Foyles .....cant agree on that one. Especially after the queen mother. Generally i dont think any of them can allow for a racehorse getting cast in his box the nightbefore, treading on a stone getting out the horsebox at Cheltenham or not getting their ground on the day. Factoring those variables into the odds should give you more than a slight concern.
Report FOYLESWAR March 31, 2020 11:39 AM BST
yes those unavoidable  ,but i seldom back anything under 20/1 a long way out  nowadays  and usually much bigger  so it evens itself out .
Report FOYLESWAR March 31, 2020 12:05 PM BST
can see where you are coming from irishone ,with my approach i will get more than my share of non runners etc especially with the jumpers but i only need 1 or 2 to come in and i am well in profit.
Report foxy April 1, 2020 7:37 PM BST
Looking ahead to next years festival which trainers will be the leading ones ?
Report FOYLESWAR April 1, 2020 9:41 PM BST
same again
Report foxy April 1, 2020 11:07 PM BST
Combined winners

Henderson and Mullins v Elliott and de Bromhead how would you price it up?
Report sageform April 16, 2020 12:11 PM BST
At least an early finish will have prevented horses that might have had a virus on them from running at Aintree or Punchestown and a summer outdoors should put them right for the autumn.
Report FOYLESWAR April 16, 2020 1:23 PM BST
8/11 mully hend /11/10 elli de broom
Report sageform August 6, 2020 11:21 AM BST
None of the 4 trainers mentioned in your opening post have really got going yet in the new season. King 0-9, Hobbs 2 from 12 but many running poorly, Tizzard 2-11 ditto and Pipe 2-20. It might be because they didn't really prepare many for the July/August period. I always follow Hobbs in September as he seems to get his better quality horses ready a bit earlier than most.
Report WHOKNOWSTHEBOWLER September 4, 2020 7:30 PM BST
P Hobbs best days behind him , what is he late 60's / 70??  Old fashioned methods , been left behind.
Report sageform September 9, 2020 9:22 AM BST
I would not agree with that sweeping statement but there must be a big problem in the yard at the moment. You only have to watch the horses to see that. They are running well until coming under pressure and then they stop to nothing. Classic sign of a virus infection. Tizzards are running OK but he is not running any young horses yet. Alan King is also making a very slow start.
Report sageform September 9, 2020 9:23 AM BST
PS. Philip is 65 years old.
Report irishone September 15, 2020 7:04 AM BST
Philip knows more about the game than the vast majority of trainers, as did Bruce,  if you dont get the ammo you dont get the recognition , joseph and donnacha know feck all compared to him but they get the ammo. Philip can do better with a poor horse than them, they get rid of them out the door.Aiden doesnt bother with them either. At least Philip has a go.I
Report sageform September 21, 2020 2:35 PM BST
Alan King is in much worse form than anyone at the moment.
Report sageform September 21, 2020 3:21 PM BST
which of course guaranteed that he would win the next race!
Report sageform October 3, 2020 11:30 AM BST
King beginning to get some form but Tizzard and Hobbs are still relatively quiet.
Report Cash Is King March 14, 2021 10:14 PM GMT
I normally wait until the Wednesday or Thursday of the Festival to resurrect this thread but have decided on a break with tradition.

I'm expecting Skelton to vie with Henderson as top British trainer in 2021.  Having taken the decision to pursue quality and big money owners Skelton appears to have been rewarded with an exceptionally strong team to go to war with at the 2021 Festival. Roksana, Allmankind, Nube Negra and Third Time Lucki represent their best chances but the likes of Alnadum, Cabot Cliffs, Elle Est Belle, Not That Fuisse and Spiritofthegames shouldn't be discounted.

Nicholls also has a stronger team than he's fielded in recent years with Bravemansgame the flag bearer. Houx Gris, Hell Red, Next Destination, Southfield Harvest, Storm Arising, Shantou Flyer, Barbados Bucks and Threeunderthrufive will all have their supporters.

Hobbs, Pipe, Jonjo, Tizzard and King will do well to have one winner between them which would be in line with recent Festival trends.

Pipe's horses are in good form and it would be great to see Remastered, Brinkley, Umbrigado, Adagio and Leoncavallo run well for the Pipe team next week.

King has the Triumph favourite (Tritonic) and The Glancing Queen (Mares Novice Hurdle) but that's about it although I hope Sceau Royal and Her Indoors run better than their odds suggest they will.

Tizzard's horses have disappointed for the last 12 months and Hobbs doesn't seem to have any ammunition to fire at the Festival - now that Thyme Hill is a non starter - other than Sporting John in the RSA.

Harry Fry's form is as bad as Tizzard's but I hope Metier runs well in the Supreme. I also hope that we see some breakthrough Festival performances from the likes of Fergal O'Brien (Imperial Alcazar and Alaphilippe) and Kerry Lee (Storm Control, Happy Diva and Ballybegg).

I think the Brits will do better than current Prestbury Cup odds suggest they will (9/2) but Mullins should be top trainer by a comfortable margin with Henry De Bromhead and Elliott/Sleepy/Dopey/Sneezy trailing in his wake.
Report HistoricWarwick March 14, 2021 11:12 PM GMT
It all looks and feels to me like an ante climax - no crowds, fewer runners and the gap between British and Irish trained horses to be shown up this week. Agree there are far too many British trainers not in the same parish as their Irish counterparts - not that that is a factor but it just all feels a bit flat with no real headline grabbing stories.  De Bromhead for top trainer and the magnificent Rachael to be top jock.
Report Cash Is King March 15, 2021 8:05 AM GMT
I should add that Kim Bailey is fielding a small but select team and I expect him to secure as many winners as the combined total  of Pipe, Tizzard, Jonjo and Hobbs.
Report sageform March 15, 2021 8:35 AM GMT
The list you posted at the top is interesting. I would say David Pipe is in the best form since taking over from Martin while Alan King is in his best form for at least a year. The other 2 are in the relative doldrums. Agree about Kim Bailey. He could even have 3 winners this time. The young guns from the last 2 years have all but vanished in terms of fancied runners. O Murphy, Paulton, Fry, Greatrex, Longsdon all lacking any real stars.
Report harry callaghan March 15, 2021 9:21 AM GMT
I find it interesting thread mostly because all the top horses are in 3 barns in Ireland, so using comparable data on how good trainers are just isn’t feasible and hasn’t been for a number of years so is an unfair comparison, also when the Irish horses have 10 lbs in hand from the handicapper in handicaps and these trainers are buying all the top lots at the sales to send to these 3 trainers leaves little for other trainers and inferior stock for them to train

Look at cheveley park stud they have bought all the top lots as have robcour and gigginstown in recent times and these horses only go to these 3 trainers so obviously if these trainers have all the top buys, they are obviously the far better trainers and will win the big races, it’s just the way it is, so your argument cash is flawed in many ways when trying to beat these trainers with a stick.

Also if these 3 trainers have a barn full of the top horses it makes it easy for them to handicap there lesser horses...I find this season interesting considering how many of Mullins batllion he has actually broken, similar to Joseph O’Brien the up and coming trainer who was given a load from gigginstown and McManus last season, that we haven’t seen this season, so all injured and broken
Report harry callaghan March 15, 2021 9:40 AM GMT
Then you pick out Kim Bailey for a good week, why because he’s got fancied runners, your talking nonsense tbh it’s very easy to say he might have a good week he has fancied runners, so your just covering yourself and Kim Bailey only has a few runners, how many has Mullins got percentage wise? And he has a high percentage because he has all the top horses...

ask yourself how many supreme horses he has at the start of a season 6/7/8 maybe and he’s down to 2 so where are the rest...how many would the tizzards have at the start of the season 0/1 or David pipe 0 or Phillip Hobbs 0...so making the argument you are making is just bollox tbh

Also you want to flog Harry fry...how many runners has Harry fry had in recent seasons? Your talking sh!te basically, fry is a very good conditioner of a horse if he has the ammo he will get the best out of the horses ability...we will see Tuesday, he has one entry for the week so you can flog him after that race
Report sageform March 15, 2021 10:13 AM GMT
They are fancied because they have good recent form harry! Who would have mentioned Kim Bailey without the improved form of many of his horses such as Feel Free? In contrast, this time last year. Olly Murphy and Colin Tizzard had a a lot of well fancied runners. Most of those horses are still there but clearly running at a stone worse than then. That is almost certainly due to the relative health of the yards. I think it can be a regional and climatic thing. Somerset and Dorset was the place to be for a few years but many of those yards are under a cloud. Now the area north of Cheltenham is back in the big time with Bailey, J. O'Neill, V Williams, Fergal, Skelton all having a very good run. I'm sure many will say it is coincidence but I am not so sure. The sad fact is that there will probably be zero winners from north of Manchester in GB. Too cold to train jumpers?
Report sageform March 15, 2021 10:14 AM GMT
Sorry First Flow. Serves me right for trusting my memory rather than checking first.
Report Andymca March 15, 2021 10:19 AM GMT
Aye Right has a good chance
Report harry callaghan March 15, 2021 10:22 AM GMT
Sageform just remind me what was tizzards fancied runners last year apart from lostintranslation? His ballymore horse ran to form just to inexperienced on the day...however what others last year should of run better betting wise I can’t remember tbh
Report sageform March 15, 2021 10:23 AM GMT
True, I am a big fan of Aye Right but it is hard to name many northern or Scottish runners never mind potential winners.
Report sageform March 15, 2021 10:40 AM GMT
harry, none were favourites on the day but Fiddlerontheroof, Mister Malarkey, The Big Breakaway, Slate House, Copperhead, Reserve Tank and Harry Senior all had their supporters last March. How many races have they won between them since?
Report harry callaghan March 15, 2021 10:59 AM GMT
Fair comment.. I have to say sageform I didn’t like any of them apart from lostintranslation or the big breakaway...disappointing with Harry senior he looked a nice type to me but I suppose I evaluate chances of winning and the odds on those horses were wrong especially copperhead and fiddler on the day
Report sageform March 15, 2021 11:04 AM GMT
harry senior was killed as I recall but the others had good enough form going in. I think that the virus hit around Feb 29 2020 in that yard and they have not recovered for the most part. I agree ref. Copperhead. I could never see why he was fancied more than Slate House.
Report harry callaghan March 15, 2021 11:12 AM GMT
I just think beating trainers with inferior stock is harsh personally, ok so punters see it a different way but use this thread and tell me before the race, which of all the trainers quoted for the week ahead, have chances of winning this week before they race

Cash is making statements, so tell me before the races which horses should be running well this week for the trainers being stated?

As I said I can’t remember Harry fry actually having many runners in recent seasons and has one this season, so tell me before they races, which horses should be performing well this week and then we can dissect the said trainers inadequacies as trainers, after the meeting?
Report Cash Is King March 15, 2021 1:33 PM GMT
Not entirely sure if Harry Callaghan is making one point or several points.

This thread started in 2019 but is not the first on the subject of "top" British trainers underperforming at the Cheltenham Festival. Looking back over the last 10 years, most people would include the likes of Tizzard, Hobbs, King, Pipe, Venetia, Jonjo and Twiston Davies in a list of "top" British trainers. They would also include the likes of Pauling, Fry, Longsdon, Greatrex, O'Brien, Murphy, Mulholland and Skelton as up and coming "bright young things" who will be vying to break into the "top 10".

My earlier post was intended to make two points:

1) To highlight that a good many of the "top" British trainers will in all likelihood fail to deliver once more at this year's Festival. Of course this is due in part to a lack of ammunition and I've posted on other threads as to why I think British trainers have fallen behind their top Irish counterparts (and it's not for want of money to spend at the sales).

2) To highlight some horses which are trained by "smaller" trainers which I think could run well.

We are starting to see changes to the established order of "top" trainers but, as has been pointed out by Sageform, not many of those on the "up and coming" list are achieving any meaningful breakthrough.  The exceptions would be Skelton (big time) and O'Brien to a much lesser extent. Bailey deserves a mention because he can hardly be described as "up and coming". "Came and went" would be a better description and it's good to see him back with horses winning graded races.
Report Cash Is King March 15, 2021 1:48 PM GMT
For Harry's benefit this what I wrote on the "Record number of Irish trained winners at 2021 Festival?" thread.  Given that Harry also posted on that thread he shouldn't need reminding of my thinking on the subject of Irish dominance at Cheltenham:

Not a single British trained runner at last weekend's Dublin Racing Festival.  That may have something to do with Brexit related red tape but given how few British trained runners participated in the 2019 and 2020 equivalents I think it has more to do with the "set in their ways" mindsets of the majority of British NH trainers.

These trainers are only too happy to bleat about poor prize money in the UK but, with very few exceptions, are unwilling to seek out greater prize money beyond Britain's shores.

It's not hard to believe that at least 6 of the 8 Grade 1 winners (plus Saturday's bumper winner) we saw win with relative ease at Leopardstown will follow up at Cheltenham in a little more than 6 weeks' time. Add to that the graded Irish trained runners that didn't run at the weekend and one struggles to make a case for British trained horses winning any of the top races other than the World Hurdle and the Foxhunters.

As for the handicaps Irish trained runners have won 5 (of the 10) in each of the last two Festivals. The British handicapper seems to face an impossible task in awarding "fair" marks to the Irish horses given the disproprtionate number of wins they secure when compared with the much lower proportion of Irish trained runners.

The question that should be asked is why aren’t more British trainers looking at what Mullins in particular but also Henry DB and Elliott are doing and just copying as best they can. Plenty of expensive purchases being trained in Britain by the likes of Nicholls, Henderson, King, Pipe, Hobbs, Fry, Skelton, Williams et al but only Henderson heads to Cheltenham in March expecting a minimum of one Festival winner.

Too many “top” British trainers are set in their ways and unwilling or unable to adapt their acquisition strategies and training methods to keep pace with the leading Irish trainers.
Report sageform March 15, 2021 7:52 PM GMT
Are they trained differently? So many factors in play. Climate, going, competition, jockeys, horse health, owners.
The reason that virtually no horses have crossed the Irish Sea in either direction this season is Covid19. If the Irish horses are so good, they would surely have sent the second or third strings over for the King George, Tingle Creek, Ascot Chase etc. which they normally do. Up until Cheltenham they were afraid of getting a horse and its groom stranded. Now the risks are lower but can Irish jockeys go back and ride in Ireland at the weekend after riding at Cheltenham?
Report Cash Is King March 18, 2021 5:11 PM GMT
I have no words!
Report Autocue March 18, 2021 5:28 PM GMT
The Irish undoubtedly reign supreme but as I point out every year, they win the majority of the handicaps with the fewest runners. That’s already confirmed for this year with a day to go. There are years of results to prove Irish trained horses are well treated in Cheltenham handicaps but the BHA handicappers are blind to it. Obviously the handicapping system is flawed otherwise the long term trend would balance a nation’s winners with its number of runners. It makes me wonder if brown envelopes are involved.
Report Cash Is King March 18, 2021 10:01 PM GMT
The Irish and British handicappers have an impossible task. They can only rate what performances they see.

The barrage of criticism should be levelled at the Irish stewards. Far too many Irish horses race with the handbrake applied with a view to obtaining lenient marks.

That said, both sets of handicappers can be legitimately criticised for being too generous when it comes to assessing performances in graded races.
Report Autocue March 19, 2021 8:10 AM GMT
The evidence shows that BHA handicappers have been too lenient for years yet this season they were more lenient. Money from the UK levy is going overseas to the benefit of the Irish racing industry. It's no skin off my nose. As a punter you take it into account. I'm just pointing out what I see as incompetence from BHA handicappers with financial implications. There ought to be an independent inquiry.
Report sageform March 19, 2021 2:08 PM GMT
Please tell me where you could find a single piece of collateral form since March last year on which to rate the Irish against the British. It seems to be fitness, perhaps from running on testing ground as every Irish handicap winner has passed half a dozen horses from the last bend. Either the English jockeys are starting their runs too soon or the horses are not fit enough.
Report strontium March 19, 2021 2:21 PM GMT
Sage, you could fine it at Ascot in December when the horse that just won the County was well beaten in the Ladbroke.

I think one advantage the Irish horses have is strength in depth in their races, so they are race-hardened when they get to Cheltenhm, rather than having won micky mouse races at Newton Abbott or Sedgefield.
Report unclepuncle March 19, 2021 5:10 PM GMT
Totally humiliating.

It's a wonder that anyone would send a horse to a UK trainer bar Henderson - and even then only a megabucks one.
Report irishone March 19, 2021 5:54 PM GMT
English are snowflakes
Too generous ,too kind
And too far up their own backsides

presenter said irish stable hands getting 25 k together
And donating to charity was class

Therein lies the problem
"Class" is at the back of all english minds
Always been there
Report LoyalHoncho March 19, 2021 6:35 PM GMT
Sorry mate but I can't believe anybody in their right mind would send a horse to Hemderson now.  What he did with Altior this season was just nonsense.  11 years of age, future all behind him and he takes him OUT of a race because of so-called inferior going?!  There's not exactly a lot of time left for this horse to wait on the right going is there?  If he gets beat, he gets beat.  He;s a racehorse - Run him!  Then the inevitable happens - he HAS to be taken out of a big event for welfare reasons!  Henderson should hand things on to a well chosen successor in my view.
Report irishone March 19, 2021 6:41 PM GMT
Poor nicky is literally losing his sight.
Them two today didnt do his stable any favours.
Champ couldnt jump, santini would not go the pace.
Report jimnast March 19, 2021 6:45 PM GMT
i have said on a few occasions santini should have been running at uttoxeter tomorrow.
Report duffy March 19, 2021 6:47 PM GMT
At least the fall out will be interesting for a week or two to take us up to Aintree
Report penzance March 19, 2021 6:54 PM GMT
could be wrong but Altior turned up for most
gigs before he lost the unbeaten record over fences.
As for the preps of Santini and Champ,less said the
better.
Hope you's had a good and enjoyable festival.
  GL ALL
Report jimnast March 19, 2021 7:02 PM GMT
i was not really looking forward to the festival penzance only missed 5 days since 1980 so could not get myself up for it,however i thought it was fantastic some great stories and some great horses ,all in all a good week for horse racing,hopefully in 12 months the world will be different as much as i enjoyed watching from home i dont want to do it again.
Report strontium March 19, 2021 7:24 PM GMT
Santini will likely be running at Chepstow in December.
Report jimnast March 19, 2021 7:26 PM GMT
strontium as he is not in at uttoxeter tomorrow chepstow it is then,mind you knowing the way nicky works the durham national at sedgefield may be the target.
Report Frankele March 19, 2021 8:15 PM GMT
british horses to turn it around at aintree? dunno how thoughHappy
Report duffy March 19, 2021 8:26 PM GMT
Don't usually get the same amount of Irish horses turning up at Aintree I think
Report Frankele March 19, 2021 8:28 PM GMT
yeah  i see, terrible performance from the british horses this week
Report Cash Is King March 20, 2021 11:40 AM GMT
This is what Kim Bailey had to say on the subject in his blog this morning:

"Cheltenham is our Olympics and the races were run at speeds we would not normally believe possible.. the competition was tough and the racing was relentless.

Powerful stuff and god it shows you how hard it is to have a winner when our Champion trainer Paul Nicholls failed to train one, in fact there were only 4 English based trainers who did which really looks a very bad statistic.. And our Champion jockey Brian Hughes did not even have a ride at the meeting!

The aftermath of the Festival results must throw up the question.. Why were the English runners results so poor.. Surely it is not because the Irish buy better horses.... The big owners like JP had bad weeks too so what is wrong? Head scratching..

Our supposedly good horses like Bravemansgame were passed like they were standing still. Is it a case that we just dont run them enough..Are we just too frightened to get our horses beaten..Our handicap system is wrong. Too much racing and prize money..

So many of the festival winners ran at the Dublin Festival.. I have always thought that we should have one too.. A two day festival at Ascot with over a million ponds in prize money both days has been something I mentioned before."
Report irishone March 20, 2021 1:02 PM GMT
Yeah well they know it all dont they

Henderson regular visitor to cullentra
Still wants to learn
As for those above
Not for learning from the Irish
Report geoff m March 20, 2021 2:12 PM GMT
A two day festival at Ascot with over a million ponds in prize money both days has been something I mentioned before."

and still end up with same results. Naff all.
Report harry callaghan March 20, 2021 2:43 PM GMT
I do believe the whole handicapping system is wrong in Britain...

Small field handicaps and novices over rated is not helping, so even when there might be a nice horse, he is given to much weight...the weight scale with the Irish is way out of kilter imo but it isn’t helping the ratings horses are being given...just Over rated

If you notice every year, the Irish send a novice over for the Betfair hurdle, this is just to show where they stand and Chuck the British handicapper a bone to say he’s doing his job properly, which he isn’t

I worked out that some of the handicaps are up to 15-20lbs out of kilter with British runners...now you can say the British trainer can’t train but I think the uncompetitive nature of British racing is now suffering badly but also the handicapper hasn’t got a clue

If we used bravemansgame I didn’t give him anywhere near the rating he achieved at Newbury, yes he was impressive but his rating didn’t add up to me, with the Alan king horse who was overrated earlier in the season close up...
So his elevated mark pre race, says Paul nicholls didn’t get him ready, however in my opinion he ran to form on the day, disappointing to some but he ran his race

Also through the week British jockeys all week believed the ratings, so rode at pace the horse couldn’t handle, hence why some were tailed as those horses didn’t have the ability that people believed they did

I won’t dissect how I do things but buddelia a man I respect thought bravesmangame was a proper horse however I did not,the ratings are a mile out and the British program doesn’t help with no decent left handed races unless you want to run in the Betfair hurdle

My suggestion to the British handicapper and trainers is start sending your horses to Ireland and you will get a rating that is believable and the British handicapper will also have a clue how to rate horses, as the constant inflated marks are a mile out and that starts with novices up
Report irishone March 20, 2021 3:12 PM GMT
You are dead right
Report Cash Is King March 21, 2021 5:06 PM GMT
This is what Brian Sheerin has posted on RP website:

Years of groundwork crucial to total Irish domination at Cheltenham Festival

Take an x-ray of the performance of the British at Cheltenham last week. Now, peg that into light. What do you see? A worrying situation.

There will be some serious questions asked this week. What is broken? What needs to be fixed? That may be the wrong way to approach things as there is no silver bullet here.

Instead, let’s concentrate on what the Irish have been doing exceptionally well and go from there.

Starting with the point-to-points. The culture surrounding this vital schooling ground for future stars is light years apart between Britain and Ireland.

Appreciate It, Shishkin, Honeysuckle, Bob Olinger, Sir Gerhard, Envoi Allen, Minella Indo, Monkfish, Chantry House, Telmesomethinggirl, Mount Ida, Vanillier and Colreevy share one thing in common – they all started their careers in Irish point-to-points.

Energumene and Blackbow are decent graduates from the British equivalent but, where did they end up? Ireland. Irish points have become commercial beasts whereas they are still very much viewed as an amateur pursuit in Britain.

What difference does this make, I hear you ask? And if you were about to point to Shishkin ending up in Britain, you would be right.

However, don’t tell me that being closer to the golden conveyor belt isn’t proving advantageous to the Irish.

The big owners want to be a part of Irish racing. Take Kenny Alexander and Cheveley Park Stud as examples. Their stars would shine in any stable, but they chose Ireland.

Even when it came to moving Envoi Allen, Sir Gerhard and Quilixios in the build-up to Cheltenham, Cheveley Park found homes in Ireland rather than Britain.

What makes Ireland so attractive for owners? In a nutshell, outstanding prize-money, competitive racing and gifted horse men and women, both in and out of the saddle.

Willie Mullins alluded to such on Sunday on Twitter in what was a classy appraisal of this year’s festival, in which Ireland’s champion trainer paid special thanks to Horse Racing Ireland’s Brian Kavanagh, who has always stressed the importance of quality in the programme book.

That quality shone through last week and it was by no means enjoyed in one small pocket. Far from it, in fact, with ten trainers getting on the scoreboard for an array of different owners.

There is a wide breadth of talent in Ireland, from the man identifying store horses to the woman riding six winners at Cheltenham, and last week was a major boon for everyone who played their part.

It was a job well done.
Report harry callaghan March 21, 2021 8:42 PM GMT
Do you not think that’s a load of nonsense cash?

Mullins is dominating his own domestic racing so why is kavanagh doing a good job?

All kavanagh is doing is bringing more money to Mullins and screwing the rest of the Irish industry is he not? If not Mullins it’s Elliott and de bromhead

The British might have had the floor wiped by the Irish but the Irish face it every day of the week on there own patch...some might think great for Irish racing, others in Ireland may not imo
Report Cash Is King March 21, 2021 10:41 PM GMT
I think the irony of the whole situation is that Irish jumps racing is not in a good place.

The graded races are dominated by three trainers (Mullins, Elliott and De Bromhead) and three owners (McManus, Gigginstown and Ricci). It's good to see the likes of Robcour and the Morans join the party but Irish jumps racing is much less competitive than British jumps racing and were it not for the benevolence of McManus who spreads his horses far and wide, many more Irish jumps trainers would be struggling more than they already are.
Report Quevega06 March 21, 2021 11:26 PM GMT
Yea Cash and you get a small Irish trainer in Cromwell coming over to Cheltenham and getting half of there winners
Report Quevega06 March 21, 2021 11:27 PM GMT
even Fahey joined in on the act!!! no excuses imo stop with the sour grapes nonsense
Report Cash Is King March 22, 2021 9:43 AM GMT
No sour grapes on my part and certainly no anti-Irish sentiment either. Anyone who thinks otherwise should re-read my posts.

I want the best horses to win at Cheltenham and I want the top British trainers to acknowledge their deficiencies (when compared with their Irish counterparts) and up their game. Nothing new. As this thread makes clear, I’ve said the same thing for years.

I also want British-trained and Irish-trained handicappers to run on a level playing field.

Simples.
Report irishone March 22, 2021 10:45 AM GMT
Sole racehorse owners V population

Uk      1852 for 60 million (2016)
Ireland 3239 for  6 million  (2019)

Might have something to do with it !
Report Quevega06 March 22, 2021 12:12 PM GMT
The Irish and British do run on a level playing field,its just unfortunate that the Irish are better at this moment in time.. Swings in roundabouts
Report Quevega06 March 22, 2021 12:15 PM GMT
Fergal Obrien made a statement after Imperial Alcazar's hike saying it's hard for the English to hide what they are holding onto.. I get that but don't go out and win the bloody race so easy then, the Irish Qualifiers are more competitive so imo the English only have themselves to blame..Last two qualifiers in England had 6 or 8 runners
Report nijinsky70 March 22, 2021 2:15 PM GMT
Aidan O'Brien sends some of his lessor lights over to the UK to test the water so to speak. Why UK trainers are not doing similar prior to Cheltenham is a total mystery to me.
Report Quevega06 March 22, 2021 6:23 PM GMT
I agree Nijinsky
Report harry callaghan March 22, 2021 6:50 PM GMT
Quevega06 22 Mar 21 13:12 Joined: 23 Nov 15 | Topic/replies: 428 | Blogger: Quevega06's blog
The Irish and British do run on a level playing field,its just unfortunate that the Irish are better at this moment in time.. Swings in roundabouts



Comedy gold this...

The handicap system is not a level playing field I can assure you of this and it isn’t swings and roundabouts like you put it

A handicap is designed for horses to race equally, not get beaten 15 lengths in every race they run in like the British horses are doing against all Irish horses that come over every Cheltenham festival, so your talking nonsense
Report irishone March 22, 2021 7:04 PM GMT
Was going to say harry
Report Quevega06 March 22, 2021 7:17 PM GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong but from memory I cant remember an Irish horse winning a handicap this year around 15 lengths.. What I was referring to a level playing field is the English handicapper gives us a tax to level it up.. Just because the Irish horses are better trained and improve for the day its unfortunate the IRISH keep winning
Report Quevega06 March 22, 2021 7:18 PM GMT
I don't understand why you always look to blame someone else , look at the horses compared to the Irish.. Different league
Report sageform March 22, 2021 7:34 PM GMT
Horses, trainers and jockeys were in a different league. The question is why. Mind you the Irish jockey pool is not very deep. The meeting at Down Royal on Wednesday 17th showed up how many dreadful riders there still are getting rides over there when the elite were at Cheltenham.
Report irishone March 22, 2021 9:33 PM GMT
People are coming up with so many reasons
There is a danger that the basics are overlooked
Horses are treated as cattle in Ireland
They come under the Department of Agriculture
Not some class based government quango like the BHA
THE GOVERNMENT OPENLY SUPPORTS THE RACING INDUSTRY

Currently they cant do that in England. The Snowflakes and the antis hold too big a voting card so the politicans see the sport as a hot potato.
Report irishone March 22, 2021 9:37 PM GMT
Sageform if you go to pony racing you will see the next ruby walshes, barry geraghtys and tony mccoys out in force. Teenagers standing up in the stirrups waving as they cross the line a la mikel barcelona, pour moi , epsom. You will see the next generation slagging each other pre and post race. It is a tough breeding ground so anyone who makes it is well groomed.
Report sageform March 24, 2021 4:59 PM GMT
Probably true as are many pony races in GB. Still some pretty awful riders about.
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