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Replies: 484
By:
buddeliea
When: 01 Dec 12 17:24
Think we have a fair few exciting prospects,and personally hard to say which will turn out to be the better.
Horses stepping up in distance can go either way,and i suspect it will be a little while before we find out.
I reckon its best to let the horses do the talking,and at the moment,Silv Conti,AF,CC and Bobsworth have all had a say!!
Next week SS and Sanct will probably do some talking i should think!!

Mind you its fun summising and debating on here
By:
buddeliea
When: 01 Dec 12 17:27
Whys that Judo?

cos i dont judge a horse when it makes a race ending error??,as some seem to
By:
buddeliea
When: 01 Dec 12 17:37
think you will find that post above pretty open minded Judo.
By:
bluebirdfan
When: 04 Dec 12 13:36
Haven't seen any Tizzard quotes anywhere, is the plan to send Cue Card to the King George to see if he stays 3m then if so head for the Gold Cup? If he doesn't stay we could well see Al Ferof v Cue Card again in the Ryanair
By:
judorick
When: 04 Dec 12 13:59
I saw a quote, they are not worried at all about staying the KG trip and have always thought so. Going to be fascinating to see how he goes in the race and what they choose after

My brother who has followed racing for 10 years longer than me, and was an independent bookie for donkeys, says Cue Card reminds him exactly of Jodami but he reminds me much more of Best Mate at the same stage. Best Mate was also beaten in the Supreme and won a Grade 2 novice hurdle, couldn't run in the Arkle because the meeting was cancelled but then won the Haldon Cup on his first start as a second season chaser off the same mark (157) and the same age (6yo) as Cue Card did. Best Mate won that by 20 lengths, Cue Card by 26. There were serious doubts about best Mate staying the trip in the King George and he was ridden like a non stayer in the race. Of course future events proved that to be erroneous.

Now I'm not saying Cue Card is going to turn out to be as good as Besty but their profiles are remarkably similar at the same stage and it will be a pleasure following Cue Card over the next few seasons just to find out good he turns out.
By:
buddeliea
When: 04 Dec 12 17:23
yes Blue bird,the King George is looking like a race that will decide the campaigns for Cue Card and Al Ferof.
I am pretty sure that if they both stay ok then connections will have to look at the Gold Cup,and why not?
They both have proved they act at Cheltenham,so if they stay at least 3m,then thats it for me.
By:
FOYLESWAR
When: 05 Dec 12 11:32
cue card going straight to the king george according to joe tizz, on his  blog apparantly.
By:
SirFresh
When: 10 Dec 12 00:10
Been sticking fivers on here and there over the weekend on Cue Card for the KG. Was 7.2 on the exchange but spotted it was 8.0 on the Fixed Odds. They've been cut to 7.2 now though.

I think it will go off clear second fav.
By:
SirFresh
When: 18 Dec 12 23:25
COLIN TIZZARD believes that Cue Card will be a 'major player' in the William Hill King George VI Chase at Kempton on December 26, with the six-year-old delighting the trainer in his work.

Now clear second-favourite at 9-2 for the Grade 1, following the news of Al Ferof's injury, Cue Card goes into the race off an impressive 26-length victory in the Haldon Gold Cup at Exeter last month.

Tizzard, speaking to the Weekender for an exclusive stable tour, said: "He heads to Kempton in fantastic form and if you could have seen him last week he did the best piece of work since he came into training, comprising five minutes each way cantering and then four bits of work, three of which were fast over the four-furlong gallop."

Cue Card is yet to run over 3m and Tizzard added: "I respect each of his rivals next Wednesday, but if my fellow stays the three miles he will take some beating. It is the tiny word 'if' that makes all the difference. I personally think he will and in his current form he is a major player."
By:
festivalfanatic
When: 19 Dec 12 09:04
I backed this horse for the Ryanair before he won the Haldon Gold Cup. On decent ground, I would give him every chance at Kempton but suspect it will be a bog. If a questionable stayer, I really don't see how he is backable at 9/2 unless the weather forecast for the next few days is dramatically wrong. If he does win, or goes close to winning on heavy ground, then he will be aimed at the Gold Cup in all probability.
By:
tinkler
When: 19 Dec 12 16:58
Looked to me like he didn't fully stay 2 1/2m on Good ground at Newbury last year ,cann't see how he's going to stay 3m on probable
soft ground. Tizzards reckon he will but it's not the sort of think your going to be able to work out on the gallops.
Cann't see him staying well enough but been wrong plenty of times before.
By:
judorick
When: 19 Dec 12 17:07
People said the same about Best Mate after he was beaten in a handicap over 2 miles 4 furlongs at Ascot on his last start before his first King George. In fact, so worried were they that McCoy rode it overly negatively and got it beat. I maintain it is impossible to say for sure until they try. A very good horse is always more likely to stay because they can travel more easily and there is a very high chance that Cue Card is a very high class horse indeed.

I will nail my colours to the mast and say I think he will stay extremely well and that I don't think the going is relevant. But again I could be wrong

As for not staying 2 miles 4 furlongs at Newbury, are you talking about when he failed by a short head to give 7lbs to Bobs Worth? Laugh The same horse who later won an RSA and a Hennessey? And you are using that form to say he didn't stay? I doubt you would be saying that if they had raced at level weights.
By:
buddeliea
When: 19 Dec 12 17:37
When a horse shows speed and has good form at distances from 2m - 2m 4,its always a doubt when stepped up to 3m,especially in a top race where he will have to stay well to win.
(unless the proven stayers like LR fall of course!!)
Personally i dont think we have any good evidence in his races to suggest he will or wont stay.
Yes,you could say his running style suggests he wont stay with his speed and he can be headstrong,but its clear to me that hes stayed 2m4 well enough,so he has to have a fair chance, we have to just wait and see.
If he does stay ok,then he becomes a major player in the Gold Cup,cos he seems to like Cheltenham alright.

If you have double figure price on him,fair enough,but hes plenty short enough now imo,for a 3m first attempt.
I will be watching him with interest,and just hope the goings not too heavy,cos that could ruin the race for a fair few.
By:
festivalfanatic
When: 19 Dec 12 20:17
Nothing in his pedigree which screams 'stayer'. The most prolific King's Theatre's have shown their best form at around 2 and a half miles - Riverside Theatre and Menorah. Whilst they both handle the soft, their best form has also been shown on quicker ground. Baltazhar King has run well over extreme distances in cross country races but they are hardly grade 1 affairs. Dam hasn't thrown very many but there isn't any obvious sign of stamina in her pedigree either.
By:
judorick
When: 19 Dec 12 21:07
wouldn't be using Menorah to compare with CC as he has been beaten 22 lengths and 34 lengths in two chases where they faced each other

CC has raced twice on going described officially as soft. The first was on his racecourse debut in a bumper where he won by 6 lengths and earned the comment "quickened clear". The second was in a chase at Newbury where he gave 7lbs and a 4 length beating to For Non Stop (who is now rated 162 himself). So although he might prefer quicker going there is nothing to say he can't produce high class form on soft going.

Anyway, the horse is still completely unexposed and we do not yet know what level of form he is capable of producing. Currently I have him rated 171 (10 behind Sprinter Sacre) and he has improved his rating  on each completed chase start which indicates to me that he will certainly be capable of performances in the high 170s in the near future.The King George is going to be extremely informative. I do hope it's not desperate going as that of course introduces uncertainty into the conclusions that can be drawn.
By:
harry callaghan
When: 19 Dec 12 22:04
I have to say I am a big fan of cue card improving on every start he has made and his form is certainly standing up well...he has a lot more to give up in trip but how much I'm not sure because of how he has been ridden and trained.

When a horse is such a free goer as Cue Card is, it annoys me that the horse has not be restrained more by his incomplete rider and taught to settle and thus become a complete race horse and show us whether he is capable of staying much further than he has ever encountered...

The trainer and jockey knew the horse was being trained for the King George but in the haldon gold cup he was just let loose again on a loose rein why??? I believe he can stay a lot further but as far as getting involved in a wager in the george or the gold cup, which i have a few pounds at 60's I still have major reservations because of how he is ridden...

If he is continually let loose he will never learn to settle in his races. I'm not saying put him out the back but he has to learn to settle to stay further and become a serious gold cup horse which for me he has the class for and has legitimate claims if learning to settle...the george will tell us more but it won't if his rider rides him on a loose rein...he will not get home imo
By:
judorick
When: 19 Dec 12 22:15
fair points harry as ever
By:
harry callaghan
When: 19 Dec 12 22:32
just annoying judo as the canon is loaded... he is an overlay for the gold cup but not if he isn't educated

don't know why but the horse reminds me of marlborough many moons ago who was a free goer and needed major hold up tactics in order to see his races out...he did however become a top class staying chaser with education from the saddle... just want to see them educate cue card because it is all there for me...

the horse may not like it for a couple of races but he will learn...he is learning nothing at the moment the way his rider rides him...he would of beaten bobs worth last year imo bar the rider who just let him loose and the horse just didn't get home...it was a top class performance giving 7lbs but it should of been a winning one.
By:
judorick
When: 19 Dec 12 22:53
indeed he would have won comfortably with a decent ride and the form is top class

of course I remember old Marlborough, think CC has a fair bit more ability than he had though Grin

there is a possibility that they could drop him in, for the first time, in the Gold cup itself and he might enjoy it and improve for it

anyway, we'll know much more this time next week, I've had to get as much on at the 33s with VC as I can because I would just kick myself if he gags up at Kempton as gets cut to single figures for the GC
By:
duffy
When: 19 Dec 12 23:00
how will the horse react to being asked to travel slower in the KG?
By:
judorick
When: 19 Dec 12 23:09
that's an imponderable I'm afraid Duffy but there should be a good strong gallop on in a hot race like this which should help
By:
harry callaghan
When: 19 Dec 12 23:19
yes malborough not the same class but he was still good...think they should start the education in the george and see what they have got...whatever happens he needs restraining but hope they do as think he is the one horse who has that real touch of class about him that can improve for the step up in trip...lets hope we learn something about him in the george...

like the sound of that...ye having problems with victor after a few good results though...thought it was max bet 50?? anyway a struggle and for me, had a classic account withdrawn in august which is a choker as they would accommodate a decent bet and now having problems getting on...after betting with him 20 years you would think they would show a tad more respect, still a shame...might try and get the missus to open another account then because I like the sound of that...
By:
judorick
When: 19 Dec 12 23:33
yes I've got a whole bunch of people to get on for me, they are mostly tenner punters so I tell them the bet and get them to have the rest on for me. I've got £250 @ 33s now. Trying to get more on before next week.

did it with the Baldfred offer on SS in the Arkle (money back if you finish second, up to £200, 5/6), had everyone I knew on it, opening accounts and everything. It's the only way to get on with these offers.

I don't do much A/P these days though, has to be real tasty and a certain shortener before I commit (or money back offers)

can't back him for Kempton though at the odds
By:
harry callaghan
When: 19 Dec 12 23:46
yes I don't like the odds myself for the george but don't like long run with john wayne up and he is regressing for me...

might actually have a look at the race soon but handicaps more my thing...like one in the welsh but have no wish to get my fingers burnt just yet...have a beauty up my sleeve for the coral cup but miles offGrinwill let you know in 3 monthsGrin

this could end up a war like kempton has never seen before...this will be the most testing that i can remember...but like all these popular ante post races the value has been well and truly sucked out so will have a look on the day...
By:
judorick
When: 19 Dec 12 23:51
yes I coulda got on at 10, 9, 8 easily but just kept putting it off til now it's no price so with the offer at VC I thought the 33s was a better bet now, if he doesn't make the race can stick the bets on something else...

look forward to your WN selection etc, can always PM me if you don't wanna post them on the board

anyways let's hope for a good chrimbo and some profitable punting mate
By:
harry callaghan
When: 20 Dec 12 00:09
yes looking forward to the challenge there is always a good amateur rider race at southwell on the 1st or 2nd of january over 2 miles that i like to have a right good study up for, my favourite race of the season for obvious reasonsHappy...my chrimbo has been paid for by wayward prince...dear old hillory turned this creature around and the books went 6's in the morning lovely stuff...

anyway check your mail will send if i have a decent fancy...as only get ridiculed on here when it doesn't come off...one tip I will give is do not back tf3 will be very surprised if this wins no matter how much they say they have layed the horse out. been wrong before howeverGrin do write a small thread called a reason to be joyful which I have only put up strong selections on a saturday...but it is rare and have only put up 2 selections on it both won but a little bit of fun, a good tester for me as a punter
By:
judorick
When: 20 Dec 12 00:18
already advised against T43 Harry
By:
buddeliea
When: 21 Dec 12 12:30
Now decided that it makes sense to have some of the current price on CC for the Gold Cup.
I'm not convinced he stays of course,but if he runs a big race in the KG his price plummets.
The price is worth the risk imo.
By:
judorick
When: 21 Dec 12 15:03
if you use VCs offer, there's neglible risk Budd... if he don't run in the GC you get the bet on something else
By:
buddeliea
When: 22 Dec 12 08:28
cheers mate,shall take a look
By:
buddeliea
When: 22 Dec 12 09:14
just done it mate,33/1.

thanks for that judo,its a darn good offer imo.
By:
judorick
When: 22 Dec 12 17:01
yes and you can have 10 pops for a total of £500 i.e £50 a horse

and if you have family, friends and colleagues you can get them to do bets for you too

you're right, cracking offer
By:
Steeplechasing
When: 22 Dec 12 18:52
CC doesn't need to lead but he jumps much better at pace, I think that's why he is ridden from the front: under attempted restraint at Cheltenham he unseated. Since then they did the wise thing and let him get on with it.

He's not a straight jumper - fair bit of lateral movement in the air which can cause a slight screw on landing (S. Sacre occasionally does this too) and I suspect his jumping will always be like this; I'm a bit more concerned with that than with his stamina. I've no doubt he has one of the best engines in racing; if he was straightforward I'd be massively confident about him winning at Kempton - I'm still fairly confident he will anyway.

If you fancy him strongly for the KG, the outstanding bet must be 36 for the Gold Cup. If he wins next week on testing ground he'll be single figures for the GC: if he hacks up he might be favourite.

Good luck
By:
judorick
When: 22 Dec 12 19:57
that was my reasoning

and with money back (well get the bet switched) with VC it's well worth it
By:
buddeliea
When: 23 Dec 12 08:53
Steeple,yoy think his jumping issues are more to do with his jockey?
i would prefer a different jockey myself,yes he knows the horse well,but he aint the best for sure at presenting a horse at a fence,and it would be a real shame if the horse never reached his full potential cos of his jockey.
By:
wellchief
When: 23 Dec 12 12:09
On good ground I would give Cue Card a huge chance in this, but I wouldn't be too keen on him running in the current conditions.

With his long term future in mind, I personally wouldn't be too keen on running him over 3m in bottomless ground against Gold Cup candidates.  The horse has a big future imo and wouldn't want to see this race leave a mark on him by asking too much of him too soon.

He'll still be a 6yo (just) who has already had 3 festivals under his belt; and I say this as a Cue Card King George backer.

I'd be testing the water over 3m in something like the Aintree Bowl after the Ryanair.
By:
Steeplechasing
When: 23 Dec 12 13:45
Bud, I don't think Tizzard's the cause of his jumping problems. There's not enough evidence yet but it could be a quirk of the sire's progeny:

Riverside Theatre
Menorah
Captain Chris
The Minack
Wichita Lineman
Fingal Bay

Colin Tizzard says he'd rather have Joe on board as he looks after them and that's why they can come back season after season. If I had my choice, in order, I'd have:

Ruby
Barry
Noel Fehily
Wayne Hutch

I'm not sure any would get him jumping better but there has to be a possibility they would - their tactical nous is preferable to JT anyway.

Judo, be careful with your free bets if CC doesn't run in GC - they all have to be used on GC day.
By:
call it a day
When: 23 Dec 12 22:21
Rubys tactical nous was not really advertised at Exeter on Hinterland,Joe made him look rather silly.
By:
buddeliea
When: 24 Dec 12 06:09
Are you suggesting that JT is in the same league as Ruby??
By:
call it a day
When: 24 Dec 12 21:26
Now that would be silly Bud. JT,however, is often not given the credit he deserves. If Cue Card runs a shocker on Boxing Day, Joe will almost definitely be the scapegoat. A few posts ago someone described him as "incomplete". What utter tosh. Which jockey is "complete"?? They all make mistakes. We all know Joe will be doing his utmost to win on Cue Card. It's high time a smaller,unfashionable stable gave a good poke in the eye to the Nicholls,Hendersons and O'neills.Joe has been an accomplished rider for 15 years.He will not lack for "tactical awareness" come Boxing Day.
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