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Dear Race Fans
Just so you know, ISTABRAQ is the greatest National Hunt horse in history, not Arkle.
Also, I read the Official Handicapper, Mr Smith thinks Arkle was roughly 10 pounds better than Kauto Star's last King George victory?... Err, don't think so!
Just so you know, ISTABRAQ is the greatest National Hunt horse in history, not Arkle.
Also, I read the Official Handicapper, Mr Smith thinks Arkle was roughly 10 pounds better than Kauto Star's last King George victory?... Err, don't think so!
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Istabraq was a superstar but he was not (IMO) even the best champion hurdler ever..
Istabraq was by far the best hurdler I've seen. Can't comment on Arkle as it was ages before my time but he was obviously very good.
R Carver - Err, yes he was! Istabraq was the greatest Champion Hurdler in history so get your facts right. He would have def won 4 Champions Hurdle's if it wasn't for Foot And Mouth.
You need to understand sonny!
You need to understand sonny!
Who the blue hell are these people saying Istabraq isn't the best hurdler of all time? He is easily the greatest of all time. No disrespect to Arkle as a National Hunt horse but I got the DVD of his races and watched it a couple of times and I tell you now, there is no way he would have beaten Kauto Star in the King George on Kauto's performance last year. Whoever, thinks that needs their head testing.
Opinion masquerading as 'facts'! Check
Tilting at heroes! Check
A belligerent attitude! Check
Patronising! Check
It's going to get messy, don't say I didn't warn you.
Tilting at heroes! Check
A belligerent attitude! Check
Patronising! Check
It's going to get messy, don't say I didn't warn you.
what are you going on about? lol Who is this, Roger Rabbit?
We're comparing 2m hurdlers to staying chasers. That's a first.
Ok, Federer is better than tiger woods and Pele
Ok, Federer is better than tiger woods and Pele
Mayweather you sound shrewd. Can I have your 3 best bets for Cheltenham so far?
P.S Arkle is far more than 10lb superior horse to Kauto Star. That was never a 190+ performance last year.
P.S Arkle is far more than 10lb superior horse to Kauto Star. That was never a 190+ performance last year.
Istabraq is just about the best hurdler I've seen.
Whilst there is little point trying to compare hurdlers with chasers Arkle's best performances were about 2 stone better than anything Istabraq achieved.
You are right to disagree with Mr Smith. Arkle was at least 20lb superior to Kauto Star.
Whilst there is little point trying to compare hurdlers with chasers Arkle's best performances were about 2 stone better than anything Istabraq achieved.
You are right to disagree with Mr Smith. Arkle was at least 20lb superior to Kauto Star.
EC he fancies the favs in all the races, Ghizao, TFR, Master Minded.....
Any other opinions for us to debate into the night Mayweather?!
early hallmarks of a classic thread...
[smiley:crazy]
[smiley:crazy]
the irony...road to knowhere just comes on the radio...lol
Flyingbolt - not according to times he isn't. Did you grandad tell you that rubbish! Istabraq is/was the best so be quiet.
Arkle was not 20lb better than Kauto Star round Kempton, Kauto would have hammered him! How many King George's did Arkle win lol.
CVByrne - shut your mouth, I follow the best horse, big deal. I make profit unlike you, you silly clown.
Arkle was not 20lb better than Kauto Star round Kempton, Kauto would have hammered him! How many King George's did Arkle win lol.
CVByrne - shut your mouth, I follow the best horse, big deal. I make profit unlike you, you silly clown.
My suspicions have been confirmed CV, he is shrewd.
Now we know the best pound for pound NH horse, who's the best Flat one?
1/4 - Sea The Stars
6/4 - Harbinger
5/1 - Anything else that raced since 2009
33/1 - Bar
In my book.
Now we know the best pound for pound NH horse, who's the best Flat one?
1/4 - Sea The Stars
6/4 - Harbinger
5/1 - Anything else that raced since 2009
33/1 - Bar
In my book.
Harbinger would have hammered Sea The Stars over a mile and a half.
STS owner was scared to race Zenaytta in the 2009 Breeders Cup Classic.
Calm down Mayweather, I said you fancied the favs was I lying? No so what you having a go at me for.
You were asking for trouble with this thread. I doubt anyone will take it too seriously though. Like istabraq was a hurdler.
Also comparisons between horses from the 60's and now are impossible.
You were asking for trouble with this thread. I doubt anyone will take it too seriously though. Like istabraq was a hurdler.
Also comparisons between horses from the 60's and now are impossible.
What was your previous username you attention seeking twaat ?
Bolty - I'm surprised at such a strong comment from you about Istabraq being the best hurdler you've seen - mainly because you've been privileged to witness the glorious hurdlers of the 70's. One thing that always niggled away at me with Istabraq was that the opposition was as bad as it could have been! I'm sure he could have competed with that golden generation (as maybe could See You Then) but for me, his greatness is exaggerated. It's all about opinions of course, and we all have our favourites but for me, Sea Pigeon, Night Nurse & Monksfield aren't easily forgotten. Ponder over this quandary.....which (not necessarily the best) hurdler do you think would be last off the bridle?
Floyd - how far back does your interest in racing go? Who were the first top-class horses you witnessed?
sea pigeon for me with francome in the plate although why does no-one ever mention comedy of errors ?
Good question, Harchy.
Istabraq or Sea Pigeon I'd have thought. The Pigeon wouldn't have found as much as the others you mention. I was privileged to see Persian War on many occasions too as well as the three you mention but was always of the opinion that in the right conditions i.e. 2m, Good ground,fast pace and Cheltenham, See You Then would have beaten them all.
Then along came Istabraq and whilst I agree his wasn't a great era he had everything. The only times he was beaten there was always a reason.(Heavy ground,longer distance, fell)
Istabraq or Sea Pigeon I'd have thought. The Pigeon wouldn't have found as much as the others you mention. I was privileged to see Persian War on many occasions too as well as the three you mention but was always of the opinion that in the right conditions i.e. 2m, Good ground,fast pace and Cheltenham, See You Then would have beaten them all.
Then along came Istabraq and whilst I agree his wasn't a great era he had everything. The only times he was beaten there was always a reason.(Heavy ground,longer distance, fell)
FB - I was a big fan of both See You Then & Istabraq but their opposition was very poor. They probably get a raw deal as all they could do was beat up the opposition in style. I think when Gaye Brief was right he looked exceptional too.
PS - sadly for GB, he's probably remembered for 'emptying out' all too quickly.
Longevity has to come into it in these discussions though. Gaye Brief had one great year and was never the same horse again.All the others we have mentioned were at their peak for at least 3 seasons.
Does anyone remember the bookiebasher?Mayweather and basher appear to think along the same lines me thinks
I know he won three Champion Hurdles but you could hardly accuse See You When of having longevity 
As you're aware, it's very difficult to weigh up the greats of the game (as with the flat too) but the imperious way SYT bounded up the hill (twice) reminded me of Troy in his Derby. It's difficult to imagine an opponent (on those days) holding off such a strong finishing blasts.
As you're aware, it's very difficult to weigh up the greats of the game (as with the flat too) but the imperious way SYT bounded up the hill (twice) reminded me of Troy in his Derby. It's difficult to imagine an opponent (on those days) holding off such a strong finishing blasts.
The trouble with See You Then was that he ideally needed fast ground but because of his leg problems the only time they dared risk him on it was in the Champion Hurdle.
His first two Champions were the only time he had his optimum conditions. In his third there had been a lot of rain in the week before and the ground was good to soft so he struggled a bit to see off Flatterer..
His first two Champions were the only time he had his optimum conditions. In his third there had been a lot of rain in the week before and the ground was good to soft so he struggled a bit to see off Flatterer..
MC - yes I know it is but don't you ever compare how races under different codes pan out? Maybe it's just me. If you watch SYT's first two wins and Troy's Derby, you'll see what I mean. FWIW, I recently made a comparison (which nobody responded to) on another thread about Menorah's recent Bula victory being reminiscent of Best Mate's third Gold Cup win.
morley street wouldnt have been too far behind anything i can recall,albeit im only 36 .
Harchy i must admit i can't see it myself but maybe thats just me.perhaps strange was the wrong word to use just the derby and champion hurdle never seemed comparable to my way of thinking
MC - it's just the way both of them absolutely powered away in the last 330 yds, so fresh & full of running.....leaving the impression that on the day, those two were unbeatable!
They can only beat what's running against them and it wasn't much in Istabraq's time. The seventies stars would have thrashed Pridwell;)
ISTABRAQ IS THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME SO BE QUIET! YOUR BORING ME NOW! I STARTED WATCHING RACING IN 1997. I HAVE WATCHED ALL VIDEOS OF THESE ALL STARS AND I CAN TELL YOU NOW, THEY WERE SLOW! THE HORSES ARE ALOT FASTER THESE DAYS, MARK MY WORDS. FORGET WHAT YOUR DOPEY GRANDADS SAY, AND LISTEN TO ME.
Don't know why your laughing! You must be a right old, ugly git so shut up. When youu time has passed I will be still watching the stars of the next few decades :-)
I hate Paul Nicholls. This is the kind of brainless twaat that has opened betfair accounts just to read his blog.
this is about the most ridiculous post i've seen on here
trying to compare a 2 mile hurdler to 3 a mile plus chaser
especially when istabraq beat trees
how you can base your opinion on watching old videos that probably only show the last couple of furlongs, not knowing the form of the runners is mind boggling
trying to compare a 2 mile hurdler to 3 a mile plus chaser
especially when istabraq beat trees
how you can base your opinion on watching old videos that probably only show the last couple of furlongs, not knowing the form of the runners is mind boggling
Marvellous thread. Clueless Johnny come lately firing out ridiculous statements.
Buried in there is the comment that times are the only way to judge a horses greatness.
From my point of view on the Istabraaq debate I think Morley Street would have given it a race on a flat track. Istabraaq certainly the best hurdler I have ever seen around Cheltenham. Second Alderbrook. I dont go back as far as Sea Pigeon or Golden Cygnet but they would be others. Persian War and Insurance can't be far behind.
Mayflower - spend a tenner on Sean Magee's book about Arkle. Its a wonderful read with some fabulous illustrations and it explains very clearly the thought process behind why he is so highly rated and revered. It is beyond any rational dispute. I personally think Phil Smith has gone OTT about some of the current 3 milers and also Master Minded.
When you have read it go to the first day of the Festival , get there at 10.30 and go and have a guiness in the Arke Bar before everyone else gets there. Simply go with it and luxuriate in the surroundinigs which are a fitting tribute to the greatest racehorse who ever lived.
For what its worth Secretatriat greatest Flat horse ever.
Buried in there is the comment that times are the only way to judge a horses greatness.
From my point of view on the Istabraaq debate I think Morley Street would have given it a race on a flat track. Istabraaq certainly the best hurdler I have ever seen around Cheltenham. Second Alderbrook. I dont go back as far as Sea Pigeon or Golden Cygnet but they would be others. Persian War and Insurance can't be far behind.
Mayflower - spend a tenner on Sean Magee's book about Arkle. Its a wonderful read with some fabulous illustrations and it explains very clearly the thought process behind why he is so highly rated and revered. It is beyond any rational dispute. I personally think Phil Smith has gone OTT about some of the current 3 milers and also Master Minded.
When you have read it go to the first day of the Festival , get there at 10.30 and go and have a guiness in the Arke Bar before everyone else gets there. Simply go with it and luxuriate in the surroundinigs which are a fitting tribute to the greatest racehorse who ever lived.
For what its worth Secretatriat greatest Flat horse ever.
Listen bird brains - Istabraq is/was a superstar. If he raced Arkle he would have smashed him for 6! So, be quiet and let me watch the racing you headcases.
Considering Arkle was a 3mile chaser and Istabraq was a 2 mile hurdler i "think" Istabraq might beat him you m0ron. Best 2 mile hurdler of all time has to be ALF, consistent old boy....
There is a theory on this issue that I heard Luca Cumani expound, Its really simple and I can't remember the figures he used but in 1970, there were X number of horses in training, In 2010 there are 3 times X number of horses in training. Taking into account as well advances in the breeding industry, is it not unreasonable to believe that the best of 3 times X number of horses in 2010 would be better than the best of X number of horses in 1970? Shouldn't horses be getting better?
No. Not neccesarily. The overall general standard may improve (there is no emprical evidence of that) but outlying performers can come along at any time.
Hence Arkle would have battered Kauto Star and Nijinsky would have battered Sea the Stars.
Hence Arkle would have battered Kauto Star and Nijinsky would have battered Sea the Stars.
On ratings indeed, But say Arkle beats Millhouse by X lengths but Millhouse is only the second best of a few thousand horses, When IC beats Denman in the Gold Cup, Denman is the product of a system that had so many more horses than in the 60's. Would it at least be fair to say that horses in general are getting better but a great one can come along at any time? I'm only playing devils advocate by the way, I just thought Cumani's hypothesis was interesting.
Bastard of a month is January, I've a big project due up at the end of the month and don't seem to have any time for going out and betting at the minute, was hoping the racing at Sandown today would cheer me up, but I saw the field for the Tolworth and I was really dissapointed. Hopefully next Saturday will signal the relaunch of the jumps season, (it might be the next time I get out of the library) Haven't been really taken by a race since the Bula tbh, Leopardstown at Xmas felt thrown together.
I don't mean to denigrate Arkle, I think he was the greatest
Golden Cygnet may well have been the greatest ever hurdler. Unfortunately he never had the chance to prove it.
I don't have a problem with people questioning Arkle and it may be that the 212 timeform rating is a bit lively but if you bother to go back and really research it you cannot possibly argue that he was , by some margin, the greatest horse to ever get hold of a bit.
It would be easier if you were around at the time (I wan't) because you have more of a feeling for the worth of some of the collaterol form as many of us would today. Its not a simple matter of weights and measures but when they have to re-frame the handicap system to allow horses to run off something approaching their proper weight and the horse that has caused it still wins handicap chases we will know we have a potential challenger to the crown.
The interesting argument is who is second best over 3m and my choice around either Newbury or Cheltenham would be Denman. Around Kempton it would be Kauto Star and Desert Orchid in a dead heat for 2nd. In all probability 20l behind the winner.
It would be easier if you were around at the time (I wan't) because you have more of a feeling for the worth of some of the collaterol form as many of us would today. Its not a simple matter of weights and measures but when they have to re-frame the handicap system to allow horses to run off something approaching their proper weight and the horse that has caused it still wins handicap chases we will know we have a potential challenger to the crown.
The interesting argument is who is second best over 3m and my choice around either Newbury or Cheltenham would be Denman. Around Kempton it would be Kauto Star and Desert Orchid in a dead heat for 2nd. In all probability 20l behind the winner.
mayweather, i congatulate you on the biggest haul recorded on a horse racing forum. well done 
sea pidgeon,bula,comedy of errors,lanzarote, dont imagine istabraq would have won 3 if running at the same time as any of the above.
ISTABRAQ is/was the greatest hurdler of all time and the best National Hut horse of all time. Forget Arkle, he was good but not that good. Kauto Star would have hammered him in the King George.
Can't make up my mind if it's cannabis (for the long-term memory loss), steroids (for the aggression)or jellies (for the general all-round dopeyness)that Mayweather is on.
istabraq was absolutely brilliant won about 22 races out of 26 won 4 in succession at chelts the quickest over a hurdle i have seen but comparing to arkle is quite ridiculous
Steroids - with a bit of cocaine for paranoia and winky shrinkage.
mayweather been as you stopped posting at 8.53am can i assume that your teacher has entered the classroom and asked you to get on with you get on with your work
Forget all of these Champion Hurdlers! Istabraq was the greatest of them all so forget the rest. Forget Arkle, he only beat statues. CVByrne - why did you tell me that Hors La Loi III was the best champion hurdler ever ha ha - what a dork!
Streuth.
Mayweather - stop being a bellend.
We take your point - you love Istabraaq and you've seen nothing better in the time you have been watching racing well fair enouugh.
Never mind the fact that several horses (albeit chasers) have been rated higher since just enjoy your memories of the O'Brien horse and stop being a t1t.
Mayweather - stop being a bellend.
We take your point - you love Istabraaq and you've seen nothing better in the time you have been watching racing well fair enouugh.
Never mind the fact that several horses (albeit chasers) have been rated higher since just enjoy your memories of the O'Brien horse and stop being a t1t.
"When you have read it go to the first day of the Festival , get there at 10.30 and go and have a guiness in the Arke Bar before everyone else gets there. Simply go with it and luxuriate in the surroundinigs which are a fitting tribute to the greatest racehorse who ever lived."
Panto - FFS dont give this fcuking gimp any ideas - the Arkle Bar is one of the last refuges from pondlife like our young friend here so dont be putting ideas in his head to pollute the place.
Panto - FFS dont give this fcuking gimp any ideas - the Arkle Bar is one of the last refuges from pondlife like our young friend here so dont be putting ideas in his head to pollute the place.
lol what a muppet. Arkle would not beat Kauto in a horse box
Just So - good point mate.
Let's be honest though he ain't going to go to the Festival all the time he has a hole to sh!t through.
anyway this year they are doing an IQ test on the gates so he won't get in anyway
Let's be honest though he ain't going to go to the Festival all the time he has a hole to sh!t through.
anyway this year they are doing an IQ test on the gates so he won't get in anyway
I think he's getting desperate for attention. Posting in every thread now, nobody replying to the inbred.
I don't have a problem with people questioning Arkle and it may be that the 212 timeform rating is a bit lively but if you bother to go back and really research it you cannot possibly argue that he was , by some margin, the greatest horse to ever get hold of a bit.
It would be easier if you were around at the time (I wan't) because you have more of a feeling for the worth of some of the collaterol form as many of us would today. Its not a simple matter of weights and measures but when they have to re-frame the handicap system to allow horses to run off something approaching their proper weight and the horse that has caused it still wins handicap chases we will know we have a potential challenger to the crown.
The interesting argument is who is second best over 3m and my choice around either Newbury or Cheltenham would be Denman. Around Kempton it would be Kauto Star and Desert Orchid in a dead heat for 2nd. In all probability 20l behind the winner.
Okay Panto, I'll bite.
Heard of Lottery? Won the initial Grand National. Never mind the handicap having to be reformed, race entries in his day were specifically framed for 'all horses except Lottery'.
I haven't read the book you mentioned but I'm guessing it starts out with a conclusion: that Arkel was the greatest ever, then picks the 'facts' out to support it. Throw in some rheumy-eyed references to 'Himself' as if the author was an amalgam of The Duchess of Westminster, Tom Treacy and Pat Taffe rolled into one, lay back and have your prejudices confirmed.
Okay, okay I know. Comparisoms are a waste of time and if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle. Plus they allow Cretins-c0me-lately like our friend here to come on, spouting molten horsesh1t to God knows what end. But you can talk to me until you're blue in the face, but I'll never have Arkle being THAT superior to anything else that's ever tackled a fence - and on my more combative days, that he's the best chaer that ever drew breath!
It would be easier if you were around at the time (I wan't) because you have more of a feeling for the worth of some of the collaterol form as many of us would today. Its not a simple matter of weights and measures but when they have to re-frame the handicap system to allow horses to run off something approaching their proper weight and the horse that has caused it still wins handicap chases we will know we have a potential challenger to the crown.
The interesting argument is who is second best over 3m and my choice around either Newbury or Cheltenham would be Denman. Around Kempton it would be Kauto Star and Desert Orchid in a dead heat for 2nd. In all probability 20l behind the winner.
Okay Panto, I'll bite.
Heard of Lottery? Won the initial Grand National. Never mind the handicap having to be reformed, race entries in his day were specifically framed for 'all horses except Lottery'.
I haven't read the book you mentioned but I'm guessing it starts out with a conclusion: that Arkel was the greatest ever, then picks the 'facts' out to support it. Throw in some rheumy-eyed references to 'Himself' as if the author was an amalgam of The Duchess of Westminster, Tom Treacy and Pat Taffe rolled into one, lay back and have your prejudices confirmed.
Okay, okay I know. Comparisoms are a waste of time and if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle. Plus they allow Cretins-c0me-lately like our friend here to come on, spouting molten horsesh1t to God knows what end. But you can talk to me until you're blue in the face, but I'll never have Arkle being THAT superior to anything else that's ever tackled a fence - and on my more combative days, that he's the best chaer that ever drew breath!
Game of opinions Roger - yours is perfectly valid because it appears to be based on a reasonable amount of knoweldge
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