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perrydinho
15 Nov 16 20:24
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Date Joined: 02 Jul 00
| Topic/replies: 167 | Blogger: perrydinho's blog
Just starting to look for next year (winning Dubawi mare), what UK based sire under £15k, preferably under £10k would you look to now as an owner breeder type ... more interested in quality rather than precocity. Mount Nelson and Champs E gone ... Sir Percy .. but is there anything else?
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Report Formtwist November 15, 2016 9:43 PM GMT
Without knowing limitation from damline I'd agree Sir Percy and add in Archipenko at the same stud. Other proven sire maybe Nayef, Sixties Icon or Haafhd. Unproven but classy Telescope.
Report kincsem November 15, 2016 10:37 PM GMT
You should put up the full pedigree of the mare, not 50%.
Report proxygene November 15, 2016 11:36 PM GMT
At the risk of looking like I'm sponsored by Cheveley a generic Dubawi mare reads

Garswood, Medicean, Kyllachy, Toronado, Sir Percy, Sixties Icon, Farhh
Report randomtwat November 15, 2016 11:58 PM GMT
Farhh is possibility un proven because still young stallion who one would feel going to stamp his off spring and enhance a mare pedigree long term,
He a real strong horse with stunning looks, Showed the spirt to battle back.

From a real tough 3 year, old campaign racing against some of the best race horses seen on the race course this century.

I'e Frankel MoonLight Cloud So You Think he beat the ever so game and gallant warrior on his final ever outing on the racecourse in, Cirrus Des Aigles.

So mentally strong which is needed when selecting any stallion for a mare. Size scoop and being by pivotal every chance of,
installing some speed for all the commercial breeders who have followed the status quo breeding speed demons.
Report truehoncho November 16, 2016 9:50 PM GMT
Proxy, you forgot Mayson.
Report proxygene November 17, 2016 5:30 AM GMT
Only an average affinity to mate to a Dubawi mare but am still inputting data for 2016...
Report proxygene November 17, 2016 5:37 AM GMT
And Lethal Force isn't the way to go for a full Cheveley set in this case.
Report truehoncho November 17, 2016 4:50 PM GMT
I would love to get some feedback on Mayson as he is currently top of my list. Do people like him? Is he commercial? £6k gives me a bit of a nose bleed but he doesn't have much competition does he?
Report randomtwat November 17, 2016 5:50 PM GMT
When looking on Mayson career I’ve never really been taken aback by him as sheer physical specimen very talented no dispute challenge that,
everyone got a theory for the type of stallion they choose to send their mares to.

Just really depends on mentally of mares in question and how much you’ve really believed in Mayson as horses,
gene pool and will to win is one of the major hurdles to overcome with any mating.

I’ve always looked for flat stallion who has raced on until there at least five or six years of age.

So Trueoncho you've either got to believe in your gut feeling or look elsewhere!
Report Formtwist November 17, 2016 7:34 PM GMT
Goodness me, Randomtwat, you eliminate most stallions on your criteria! Truehoncho, I'll say again about Mayson you need a good big correct mare, he throws plenty of good winners some of whom have an action that is less than a joy to watch and of a size that makes training on a concern. You risk the events of two intervening crops before sale of a 2017 cover and his modest increase reflects those risks. He will be popular I think, and would I / will I use him - yes. Which probably means he is doomed!
Report truehoncho November 17, 2016 9:26 PM GMT
Thanks FT and RT. I don't think you have put me off him at least. My mare will put size into a foal that's for certain, unfortunately she has a habit of getting them a little crooked up front, but they tend to look ok as yearlings. I too would like to see them run longer RT but you don't see many of them around these days. In truth, I am hoping something a little more obvious will appear for her over the next couple of months.
Report randomtwat November 17, 2016 9:52 PM GMT
Hi Format.

Yes, one range for stallion selection is shortened drastically, and consider this the instinct is to following patterns in human physiology when making any form of decision making.
Coolmore this side of the century prime example of this, with horrid track record of repeating mating’s time and time again.

Their reach into the breeds gene pool has over influenced today operations in England and Ireland to the point you’ve got letters being sent to the racing post bloodstock site by peter Stanley no less.

The natural selection process in wild horses are for the older more dominant stallions to succeed, following nature law so therefore your increasing the chance of much stronger thoroughbred and natural racer who has a much stronger mind for handling being trained and sounder to.

One theory is not without thought process behind what one feels, I’ve just grown ever so tired of current state of affairs where the need to breed ever more is purely for speed.
Everyone got an opinion some may share it some will not, having logical debates and discussions is the way forward, something horse racing needs badly on a whole different level.
Report Formtwist November 17, 2016 10:05 PM GMT
Randomtwat, do you actually breed or are just a theorist? Coolmore are the best defenders if middle distance breeding out there with more Derby and Oaks winners by far. Don't follow your logic.
Report Formtwist November 17, 2016 10:09 PM GMT
Plus, Peter Stanley bred Australia by Galileo from Ouija Board and he himself stands at Coolmore.....
Report randomtwat November 17, 2016 11:39 PM GMT
Formtwist

I've never breed horse’s possibility this will happened within next couple of years. Yes, they have the middle-distance pedigrees not debating that point and never will do.

When they introduced Danehill into the market they’re in lies where the speed influx first begun. They’re not only ones with this influence on the breed, they just had the biggest reaction for breeders to follow suit because of the success they’ve had with him.

One issue lies with how the marketing is produced today, by sales and bigger breeders alike it’s very much a darker time in amount of two year olds retired to stud, one wouldn’t of thought that would cross any breeders mind fifteen to twenty years ago, I’ve seen the first hand at how difficult some of these two years are to, handle whilst in training the mentally of a lot of these young horses cannot handle the pressures that go into training them so earlier on in their careers.

The logic to one point of view is, in the wild dominant stallions are pitted against each over for the right to mate with the herd of mares, they’re in lies dominant gene pool which can increase a stronger mentally with, a strong likely hood of this gene being passed down to his off spring.

This shortens any chance of bad genes being transferred throughout each mares’ life time. The mentally factor for any horse is key to their success. How many horses refuse to go past another logically throughout its career? because of having a far stronger herd instinct, that many would assume should have no issue when getting close to the lead of any race.

There are two types of mentally the dominant leaders in the gene pool and the ones that have a natural herd instinct and fear galloping off from the herd these factors really don’t get discussed much.

Peter Stanley did the obvious with his breeding selection seemed more commercial choice with regards to your last post. I know the views shown take some understanding I’m not the typically thinker where breeding comes to mind.
Report Johnny_Mustang November 18, 2016 9:38 AM GMT
Randomtwat
I’ve always looked for flat stallion who has raced on until there at least five or six years of age.


Go on then, name some who have been any good.
Report The Headmaster November 18, 2016 4:30 PM GMT
Kayf Tara Plain
Report truehoncho November 18, 2016 4:51 PM GMT
I'm hoping Cityscape will make it!
Report randomtwat November 18, 2016 6:04 PM GMT
Good Evening some selections from the stal-lions to race as old age pensioners in flat racing terms.

One just thought scribble these down, for the debate to proceed further along.

That’s me off to rest and relax now shall see what responses or lynch mob whichever comes first. I’ve got a feeling their plenty of rough diamonds in the old coal mine await-ing to be revealed.   


Archipenko

Gregorian

Mukhadram

Es Que Love

Doctor Dino

Grey Swallow

Windsor Knot

Champs Elysees

Arakan

Binary File

Music Master

Lovelace

City Scape added on your account, Mt Honcho.
Report Formtwist November 18, 2016 7:31 PM GMT
You should have narrowed those down to those who have succeeded at stud to answer J-M's question. That really then reduces to Archipenko - who is a very good sire, then possibly Doctor Dino and Champs Elysees, who had success, but not as much as his patronage warranted. Arakan is very hit and miss - hits are few but very good, misses are the overwhelming majority pretty awful. You might have mentioned Youmzain, who is shaping up to be useful and **** who has got some good ones on the flat though mainly standing as a jumps sire.

Quite what you mean by always looking for such flat stallions when you don't actually breed using them escapes me. No doubt you will explain - and by the way I think you mean mentality, not mentally in your post before? Most stallions who have succeeded on track have rather proved the will and ability to win by doing so. Plenty of we commercial breeders do avoid the sires retired on a single season as juveniles there being plenty of options with those who raced on at three at least and I personally only use mares who themselves have won. Don't tar us all with the same rather sweeping and critical brush....from the safety of the theoretical breeder.
Report Formtwist November 18, 2016 7:32 PM GMT
Now why did this site take exception to Y E A T S ?
Report Johnny_Mustang November 18, 2016 7:37 PM GMT
But it's not a great list is it? Those who've had runners have been disasters. It's too early to judge Archipenko, Cityscape or Mukhadram and I can't recall a stallion in the entire history of breeding who has had such an enormous amount of mares disproportionate to his ability.
Report Johnny_Mustang November 18, 2016 7:39 PM GMT
^ That Y E A T S thing is extraordinary, I remember trying to post his name elsewhere on here and eventually gave up.
Report Johnny_Mustang November 18, 2016 7:41 PM GMT
'and I can't recall a stallion in the entire history of breeding who has had such an enormous amount of mares disproportionate to his ability'.

Naturally I was referring to Gregorian here.
Report randomtwat November 18, 2016 10:06 PM GMT
Form Twist One would have narrowed down the process it was just, A short and informative response before,
I could get some much need rest.

Wouldn’t normally just do that, just was to shattered after, a very long day of research, cannot always be so detailed in one response it’s the weekend finally time to put the feet up.

Well shall try to at least.

Your point is noted though at the layout of response! Happy
Report Posh Paddy November 19, 2016 12:58 PM GMT
Don't forget my old favourite - Baltic King.  Raced up to the age of 7.  His stats are pretty good.  It's just sad he's not commercial as at €1,500 he's a steal.  If I was breeding to race on a budget I'd be all over him.  I am slightly biased though.
Report randomtwat November 19, 2016 6:00 PM GMT
I've a fondness of, “Windsor Knot” he’s, shown with the right opportunity he can get off spring winning. Group races yes only at group three level. He’s also had group one placed from his stock along the way. Still you couldn't complain winning any group race with a mare who, most would over look at the sales.

Is a nice achievement to have on any stallions cv and at, “One thousand five hundred euro”

There plenty of buck for your money!
Report neill d November 20, 2016 1:23 PM GMT
Always thought Coolmore missed a trick moving on Archipenko. Okay he did his best stuff with DeKock but 'm sure they have a fair idea of what is coming in that regard a lot of the time.

Great looker and would've been something a little different, maybe they were about Henrythenavigator at the time.
Report sageform November 23, 2016 8:46 AM GMT
Not UK based, but on my stats, Tamayuz is progressing steadily at a price of EUROS12.5k. Add on the travel cost and it could still be within your budget.
Report proxygene November 23, 2016 10:02 PM GMT
Tamayuz E8k 2017
Report Prima Donna December 4, 2016 9:52 PM GMT
Sir Percy imo would offer you all that you are looking for perrydinho,he is a good stallion and a rather underrated one too. But saying that he's had a good year and his stock have sold well so he'd offer all you seem to want.
Report proxygene December 4, 2016 11:34 PM GMT
Data from 2016 now in and I think anyone with a Dubawi mare ought to head to Cheveley Park perhaps even the teaser would do a job as well...
Out of over 900 active and inactive sires these are the following rankings of relevance/coincidence. Even the ones I didn't have support for, including the new boy all now sit in the top 100.

#2 Dutch Art
#5 Pivotal
#12 Medicean
#13 Kyllachy
#17 Garswood
#21 Intello ok no longer at Cheveley
#22 Twilight Son
#27 Farhh
#43 Lethal Force
#69 Mayson
#70 Proclamation ?
#86 Pearl Secret
#93 Sir Percy
#97 Territories
#98 Mukhadram

On the downside so far Dubawi has been a below average broodmare sire. PM me the name of the mare if you want more specific suggestions.
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