No more trading on NSW markets

Not really King, Betfair was attractive to many people because of the ability to trade, they might not know which horses are winning they can still make a profit because they can work out which horses are going to firm or ease. Betfair actually attracted a lot of people because of this ability, without the ability to do this on racing they will turn to sport and their turnover will be lost to racing forever.

Different people have different goals Mug. 

Tell me bookmaker goals Mug.  Very rare to have a bookmaker with an opinion other than what they think the punter will stoop to to put their money down, after watching everybody else.  Gambling in general can either be about joy of watching the event, or trying to make money.
How is tattslotto?  Do you think people care to watch 6 numbers blowing round a glass ball?  Most simply want to put their money down, and get more back in their pocket.

Barney, traders would have a much higher base rate than punters because they offset their losses in the same market and earn nowhere near the points that punters do.

Most traders would be paying the PC thoguh

That's pretty much me Joel, I've been doing this since 2006 didn't know the first thing about horse racing when I started and still don't know the first thing about horse racing. Once trading is done I'm never touching BF again.

fair call Jonker. I'm a little different - I think I know horse racing, but I can't win on it without the ability to trade.

This cannot work imo. They have to ask theselves are we a betting exchange or not.

I think the real question they need to ask, well 2 of them.  1.  Are we NSWRs' bitch?  2.  Do we wish to be still a company at the end of the year?

I have always bet on horses, but before Betfair it was 50 cents each way. These days I bet a lot more, mainly on the tote for exotic bets, so they will miss out as will RNSW if I can't use betfair anymore.

I'm curious to know whether all the big traders are being told no more trading or just the ones not paying premium charge? Or is it only the ones who pay premium charge being told not to trade?

I pay premium charge and was told not to trade.

I don't pay premium just yet tip but have been told.

1-1

i pay but no longer can play.

simple fix for mine - charge a percentage of every bet as soon as it goes on -e.g 1% does,'t matter if it's a win or lay bet, take 1% of it - no commission, no pc just 1% f every single bet matched

will be interesting to see how much these markets are affected..
iam thinking not as much as everybody thinks time will tell

They had there chance they should have black banned the carnival and pissed off NSW for good Like barney said
so are they going to refund all the extra charges and markets that are not Turnover based??

Maybe Giles whatever his name is should hand his papers in

Think you and BJT are onto something womble.  I reckon that will be the next 'charge' if all States want to screw over BF and not negotiate somehow.

heres a real simple fixed womble
DONT Bet on NSW
but if you do make every account accept new terms and conditions that they pay extra 1% turn over tax .. paid just like the PC
if you lay a bet of $1000 you pay $10 extra above the normal commission charges...
they will be TRUE charges that betfair are actually passing on...

has to be better way somewhere

strange thing is how they are rolling it out - are you guys that they called their biggest traders???

I've only been trading weekends for the past 6 month or so, so in my case no.

Very strange arrangement, because there are no official announcements you can conduct transaction(s) on Betfair under the  current rules as they apply then be told that the transactions are not acceptable in the futue.

Hope the UK and European account holders have an up to date map of NSW.

Which is rolling over telling everybody everywhere, if you increase your charges, we will cop it on the chin, pass it on to our dwindling customer base, and fold like a cheap suit.

Biggest traders would be the least of their concerns.  The smaller traders, making mistakes, trading multiple times to get into profit are the ones costing the most because they have the smallest ROI but still a high turnover.

bjt that can't be the theory they're operating on. I hardly trade at all, yet i got a call. so they're not targeting high turnover trading.

Wasn't trying to imply that was their target, just pointing out that better traders have bigger profit margins with less trading.  Smaller traders may end up in profit long term, but have a lower strike rate, turning over a higher percentage of bets for little result, costing BF but hardly effecting their revenue or said traders profits.

As I said earlier, can back two 2.50 favs and cost BF money, which I think will start to cause more phone calls going out without even trading.

Hang on one darn tootin' minute!

They were pushing me to trade, they wanted me to trade, they asked me to attend seminars on trading and I told them I'm not a trader, but they rang back and asked me again.

Now I can't trade, what a complete and utter ballsup!

If you have problems with BF contact the Tasmanian Racing & Gaming Commission.  They are pretty helpful and will investigate any legitimate questions about BF.  Pretty sure they will be interested in this one.

As if we needed more proof that you've lost the plot!

The TGC are one of the most ineffective and dubious regulatory outfits around.

And given the class they belong to that's saying something.

jfc, one day you might make a positive post on here, maybe.

So how many times you have contacted them with a query and they have been "ineffective and dubious"?

I don't need to use Betfair that much that I need to contact a regulator.
Just pointing out the lack of foresight and ambiquous nature of everything they say and do.

100% of the time of my dealings with them.

I could sue them and win, (and lose after paying off the shysters) but then Betfair could pull my account.

It beggars belief that outfit could leave any customer satisfied.

Mickey,
what do the Tasmanian Racing & Gaming Commission have to do with corp bookies?

Yeah interesting point OverRound.  Wonder how much money the BF backed Badger and Woodpecker made from BF advertised seminars on how to trade the exchange. 

Truth be told, most of those that attended are likely broke by now, but the principle is still there.

Yous are acting like the worlds coming to an end.  What the fucckks wrong with you lot.   Be like me keep backing winners and lay short priced favs. and the little percentage things are insignificant.

I agree to an extent Mike (if that's the way you bet), but the argument is the traders supply those odds... anyway maybe we'll find out in the next few weeks if that's true or not. May depend on who has and hasn't received the phone call.

Betfair have handled this whole thing poorly. Their share's should immediately be shorted. They would of been better off laying Black Caviar than lodging their appeal(7 nil). lawyers are happy I guess.
  Their executives should be issued with pink and blue tutu's and put on a float at the mardi gras  (promotional purposes).

When have betfair ever handled anything well?

Is there IR on NSW markets? If so this should end. Betting at 1.01 is a disaster for betfair.

There is pumpkin. I wrote yesterday to ask about that scenario (basically for me anything under 1.30 that wins is a loss for them). I didn't receive it in writing, but had a call back and I was said I can back inplay at short odds. I guess they lose from time to time, but I agree with you. However was told it's the multiple trading that they want to stop (at least for now).

Looks like all of MickeyBlueEyes' posts have been deleted, he must have been a naughty boy.

Interesting to see that when I logged on this morning the first screen up was them advertising their "free bet" technique.

Interested to know if anybody outside of Australia has received a call in regards to trading NSW markets?

Or did anyone not get a call and make a killing trading today?

BJT - I've had correspondence with one trader in the UK. He hasn't had a call or been contacted as yet.

Interesting tweet from Betfair's marketing and comms manager last night:

Great day of racing and an exciting week ahead for @Betfair_Aus - stay tuned everyone #excitingweekahead

And a number of tweets pertaining to Victorian racing yesterday, although perhaps not out of the ordinary.

Does 2+2 = 4? or 5?

I think most people would agree that it's not sustainable or fair for Betfair to absorb the increased costs associated with the 1.5% turnover tax now in effect for NSW. It is how this cost has been passed on with which I take issue. As it's been applied to all thoroughbred, harness and greyhounds in Australia and NZ Betfair is collecting funds off punters in all these markets (and presumably subsidising some of the costs themselves) to pay Racing NSW. However, this ultimately only forces the hand of every other thoroughbred, harness and greyhound racing body in Aus and NZ to implement the same tax. Currently, punters in markets outside of NSW are paying more but no additional money is going to these states' racing bodies. This means that the non-NSW states are not benefiting from being a more competitive market relative to NSW so the only logical step for these states is to implement the same turnover tax.

Don't get me wrong, I think Betfair is a great product that still offers the best value if you intend to make a long term profit and I also think it's reasonable to pass the increased costs on to the consumer, but the way in which some of the cost has been passed on provides no incentive for other states to remain with a gross revenue system (as opposed to a turnover based system). I know it moves away from Betfair's current model but if Betfair insists on still providing NSW markets I think they should implement a turnover based charge within these markets to ensure that the consequences of a turnover based tax are passed on to NSW's racing body.

so if PC is hitting big punters and traders aren't allowed to trade.. who is actually going to be left on betfair to start markets or bet?

i assume gunnedah qualifies as nsw

well someone (bot based) was clearly backing/laying one after the other ... on the 6th race

... one rule for some .. one rule for others ...

Uncleee

One thing is guaranteed, it wont be the traders who start markets or have a bet.

just maybe BF r seeding the markets, ............food for thought

it does seem very strange that it doesn't seem to be a blanket announcement - my guess is they've called the people that regularly green up while they work out how to update their programming???

no womble....i green up maybe once a week and i was called

it's a mystery then - random calls???

think it's more likely the size of average bets placed and potential exposure they would face

Hahaha, This would be funny if it wasn't so ridiculous!

I received the following email the other day for a seminar at Crown Casino in Melbourne this coming Wednesday:

As you have already attended a Betfair beginners education session, we would now like to take you to the next level by inviting you to a free Advanced Education Seminar.  This seminar will focus on some of the finer points of exchange betting and trading, seeking to give you that vital edge over the pack.  Some of the topics we will cover include:

  •  Discipline and money management
  •  Adopting a more serious approach to trading
  •  Improve your understanding of sports markets
  •  Learn how to identify trading opportunities
  •  Discussion regarding Betfair API products 

Just for attending, you will receive a free Betfair pack including the acclaimed sports betting book ‘Sports Betting to Win'
---------------
Can you spot what they've missed....that's right, there is no *Not available for NSW racing and soon every other place in AUS.

pumpkinslayerII     Joined: 24 Aug 07
Is there IR on NSW markets? If so this should end. Betting at 1.01 is a disaster for betfair.

Josh-T     12 May 12 02:50 
There is pumpkin. I wrote yesterday to ask about that scenario (basically for me anything under 1.30 that wins is a loss for them). I didn't receive it in writing, but had a call back and I was said I can back inplay at short odds. I guess they lose from time to time, but I agree with you. However was told it's the multiple trading that they want to stop (at least for now).

So betfair allow horses to be backed after they've won the race and their other customers are expected to fund the 1.5% of the mugging crews' total stakes it will cost them to do so? I just hope they're paying their ex-city clowns handsomely. We wouldn't want to lose them to the United States.

We now have Feck and his ideas on here.  Thanks wombleoz.

Ah, my renown has crossed continents.

sorry all

Punters show suggests around 30 traders were contacted - who represent 5% of the market.

I have been contacted also.

when you joined rollin ... this morning ... were you advised anything at the time ?

... and was that your first race bet

And did they sing the following song before telling you not to trade?

Rollin, rollin, rollin
Rollin, rollin, rollin
Rollin, rollin, rollin
Rollin, rollin, rollin

Rawhide

Roilin, rollin, rollin
Though the streams are swollen
Keep them doggies rolling
Rawhide

Rain and wind and weather
Hell bent for leather
Wishing my gal was by my side

All the things I'm missin'
Good vittels, lovin', kissin'
Are waiting at the end of my ride

Move 'em on, head' em up
Head 'em up, move' em on
Move 'em on, head' em up
Rawhide

Cut 'em out, ride 'em in
Ride 'em in, cut 'em out
Call 'em out, ride 'em in
Rawhide

That was

The Worst Joel

a well kniwn Xmassacre tune. 

...err "known"

The Blues Brothers did a good rendition

Member for about a year and it was more like...

Move in, now move out
Hands up, now hands down
Back up, back up
Tell me what you're gonna do now
Breath in, now breath out
Hands up, now hands down
Back up, back up
Tell me what you're gonna do now

Keep rollin' rollin' rollin' rollin'
What?
Keep rollin' rollin' rollin' rollin'
Come on!
Keep rollin' rollin' rollin' rollin'
But don't trade!

i thought we were heading into a rousing Proud Mary ... but hey ..

rawhide a legendary show ...  Gil & Rowdy lol .... and giving clint eastwood a leg up into the famous spaghetti westerns genre

How are the volumes doing on the NSW markets?

30 hey - which one of you guys is the $100k man???

http://www.puntersshow.com.au/index.php?_a=videos&videoId=326

the reckon the 30 are 5% of turnover

oops Josh said the last part already, sorry Josh

You Aussies seem to get a poor deal with betting 

Are they planning to extend this to other sports  ?  are BF slowly pulling the plug on operations in AUS do you think  ?

With in 12 months all the major sports and racing will adopt this idea so i would say betfair will take there bat and ball and go home.

Maybe the pommy sports should look at the same structure.

Since half our books are irish owned it may just be coming to s shop near you.

Dont see how British Racing can charge 1.5% of turnover. They cannot even get the levy from the Gibraltar online companies as it is at the moment.

if i was one of only thirty called then they sure wasted a phone call. I hardly ever trade and almost exclusively lay.

BS, dont think sports other than racing can charge a turnover tax, pretty sure it would all be back to court if some sports like AFL or NRL tried to get a turnover tax.

logroller, sure they might go back to court but my guess is no reason why they wouldn't win the case the same as the racing has.

I think it would be stupid if they didn't try to get some money from the companies making money on the sports.

I probably shouldn't say this, but I held a Betfair account before Tasmania got their license. I have no intention of stopping if they pull out of Aus. I'll do things as I used to do them.

sports are not relient on gambling funds.
WOuld be highly unlikely they would put a turnover tax, and further entrence there perception in gambling on the game.
Gambling on sport is not by association as it is in horse racing.

It wasnt against the law crazy to have an account..

big diff though............racing has almost entirely been funded by gambling, all other sports have not

that may sound trival but it is a big point in law i'm sure

these figures are not meant to mean anything ... just for interest

just run ...  Race 4 Canterbury Mid Week Wednesday ... who held what

BF total on jump =  $191,566   =   $95,783 halved   (or 36% of all monies held by these 4 outlets)
Unitab                             $30,612
VicTab                             $58,796
NswTab                             $77,932

I asked if any overseas players had been contacted, yet to confirm any.  Perhaps I should ask this question, given that apparantly only 30 people have been contacted, a few on here apparantly rarely trade.

Out of those that have been contacted, how many are PC payers?  I don't believe for a second that there is not trading activity on NSW markets whether it be seeded markets or high PC paying traders with their high commission payments easily covering the 1.5% turnover fees. 

Since I am yet to see a statement concerning no trading on NSW markets, I believe that there certainly is still trading going on.

bjt the question was asked earlier in the thread...pc payers are included in those that have been called....including myself

My bad, have been watching this thread and couldn't recall.  Have we heard from any overseas players that have been called?  Or am I wrong in thinking trading is still going on?

I don't understand why this is not resulting in a change to the official terms and conditions.

No, trading definitely happening, seems to be almost business as usual as far as i can tell

I have been scouring a number of forums and I am yet to hear of anyone from overseas being barred from trading NSW markets.

I don't understand how this can be.

Yeah WTF is up with how selective it is, I'm starting to take it personally. So I'm not allowed to trade NSW but there are obviously other people that still are. How is that fair.

If there's no change to the terms and conditions as Winker said and they are still promoting trading at seminars as The_Ocho said, are they just allowed to do whatever the f they want on a whim?

Maybe now that i'll be out of a job soon I should apply for being CEO of betfair Australia. If I'm having a bad day I'll just screw some random demographic over to make myself feel better, but not all of them, just a few of them, that'll really piss them off. Seeing as I don't know what the hell I'm doing I may as well take the whole Australian operations down with me. Now that we've already rolled over and let NSW racing implement a fee that will undermine the whole business model of the company I can oversee the same thing happening with all the other states who want a piece of the action. Sure we'll have no customers soon because every reason there ever was to use betfair has been eroded, but won't we look good with our big list of markets we offer! Every race meet in Australia! too bad there's no one there to bet against because there's no reason to use betfair. But that's not really my problem. I'll probably get a nice juicy payout, CEOs normally do after all.

So basically Australians have an increased commission rate of 6.5% to cover the extra fees overseas based traders are accruing?

I can understand the need to cease trading as the numbers for betty just don't add up. It's obviously still going on so I would hope they're on Betfair's radar to cull shortly, otherwise I'm making a telephone call...

so who are the "dirty thirty"???

Been discussed earlier in the thread womble.

u wanna see 30 names Dooksy

I even

Not all of them are on the forum. About 10-15 have replied about the call. I am one of them.

Seems like trading is still rife in NSW markets. So why one rule for some and another for others? The type of trading I'm seeing can not be profitable to Betfair. Complete balls up from management on this one, asleep at the wheel and all too happy to be bent over along the way.

GROW A PAIR ffs!

What discount rate are the banned traders on? 60% and making a decent contribution to BF?

This whole problem can be solved by betfair introducing turnover percentage rather that what they have now.

It would be no different to the tabs, if you bet $1 you pay 5c they could even reduce this amount the larger you bet as they do now.

If you back a runner you pay 5c if you lay a runner you pay 5c

There would be no more trading because they would pay more than they win, but hey that's life at least the punters can get back to business.

Dooksy is does seem very discriminatory to me and not transparent, there must be a better way

No_BS on the right track imo - a broad based turnover tax to replace commission and PC

looks like the effects are spreading, not the bans on trading, but the flow on - check out the thread in the general betting forum

The phone calls are surely only a stop gap solution until they add another 5 pages to the description of their commission system and code the equivalent.